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Sex club owner feels violated, says county wrong to deny license - Tuesday, May 25, 2010 | 2 a.m. - Las Vegas Sun

 

When swinger David Cooper moved from Roman Catholic-dominated El Paso, Texas, to Las Vegas, he figured he was going to the most open place in the U.S. for sexually oriented businesses.

Las Vegas, after all, advertises itself as the mecca for naughty adults.

But after a few years, his new hometown turned out to be, in his opinion, a den of hypocrisy.

 

 

Is this a second separate lawsuit in two months?

Know anything about this one Lee?

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There is a great deal more to this story and to the history of Mr. David then is told in that article.

 

Very long history he has and a story that most would not want connected to this Lifestyle.

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Yep, this is still going on.

 

We liked the part in open court were his attorney stated they hired undercover agents to go into all other "parties" in Vegas, wrote reports, took pictures when they could and have turned it all over to the District Attorney's office.

 

He is in the process of applying for licenses again for another place in the Commercial Center.

 

Since 2002 he has tried to open six different places. The longest lasted two months but he always makes sure he does all he can to stir the pot with the city/county/state over other places each time.

 

We shall see what happens this time. We are the ones that fought for over two years to prove their law was unconstitutional and they have not written any new law. It was because of him that we had to fight that battle last time. He is proud of the fact that he caused us to have to take on the battle last time. He has stated that to the press.

 

As I stated in years past, he is not the type that we want connected to this lifestyle.

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Lee seems to believe he "knows' the facts regarding my business activities, procedures, legal issues, and the results of the litigation I'm involved in. The fact is, Lee is wrong. He is obviously biased and he and I definitely do not share a positive relationship. I have watched him defame me for years, now it is time to make my voice heard. I will challenge anything incorrect he has to say regarding me or my business. If you would like to take me up on this Lee, I welcome it.

 

Lee certainly does not speak for the entire Lifestyle as a whole. He speaks for himself and the Red Rooster only. I have never really posted on this forum, so please excuse my nonexistent track record here. I will, however, be regular participant as I deem necessary.

 

For the record Lee, there was anew County Code (Law) enacted in March of 2011. It has never been enforced in any way. As far as the County's intentions, I cannot say or speak for them. I am still in litigation as we speak.

 

Lee and I are not friends, so don't believe everything you read when he attacks my character. Remember, there is competition at stake when he speaks. If anyone has anything ever to ask me, you may do so in this forum or contact me directly via email through my profile. Thank you.

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Lee, member since 2003. When I was looking for a Vegas club for the wife and I he specifically told me NOT to go to the Red Rooster as it wasn't what we were looking for. So far hes never said anything I find untrustworthy. For a guy "speaking" for the Red Rooster he has done almost nothing to plug his club for the last 10 years here. Long and the short is I'll trust him ;)

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This new 2011 law he speaks of we got called into court about. They tried to reopen our old case using it.

The same judge told them that "new" law is just as unconstitutional as the old one. Even more so.

 

I have not stated anything here that can not be proven with reading public records.

 

Daivd, did your attorney not stand in the 9th district court and state you and her hired investigators to go into other clubs then you guys took that information and passed it on to the D.A. and Licensing?

 

Here is the audio file if anyone wants to listen to it direct from the 9th District court. http://cdn.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastore/media/2013/05/09/11-16900.wma

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The Federal lawsuit is based on the 14th Amendment of the United States Constitution. It provides for Equal Protection of the Law. Clark County has failed for years since 2002 to enforce their unjust law prohibiting sex clubs. I am the only person they have enforced it with. The violation is clear. If they cannot or will not enforce the law equally, it needs to go, or they need to begin to enforce it all the way around. They face a host of issues in doing either. I didn't create this dilemma. My position to the court has always been a simple one: Provide the license I applied for when I purchased EFJ, LLC (Red Rooster 3), (it had a Category 2 Restaurant License, the same current license held by the Green Door), (In the same building as the original Green Door), or create a regulated and privileged license for this industry, or close all swing clubs in Clark County and create a need for all of the clubs to fight for a legal license together or separately. Clark County had my case dismissed in the Federal court in 2010. I appealed to the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals, 1 level below the U.S. Supreme Court and I won the appeal in May 2013.

 

You should understand the entire story before you judge me or anyone else. Even if you don't agree with my position, that's ok. You should, however, agree with my having the same rights as Mike and Chris Borchers of the Red Rooster in being able to operate under the same laws. It's the American way. Lee doesn't like me because I stood up for myself and I had to point out to the court that many other swinger's clubs, including, but not limited to the Red Rooster were operating unabated. Personally, it is my preference that swinger's clubs should be legalized and regulated in commercial districts, not in private homes. There are many liabilities for surrounding neighborhoods when a swinger's club operates, especially to the tune of 800 people a week in a residential neighborhood. I know I would not want to live next to a home like this, same as a strip club, or a Wal-Mart. There are building codes that are mandated for public safety of the patrons that must be enforced that are not in effect in a private home that was never intended for high volume traffic. I could go on about additional, logical reasons for clubs to be in commercially zoned locations and I will if anyone requires I do so,l but I am more than happy to be cabdid about my legal case if necessary.

 

As far as Lee saying things about me, I just read an old Yelp comment he made about my business formerly located in Commercial Center saying it was out of business in only a few weeks. He failed to mention it was due to the reasons I've mentioned here. I have no problem with Lee stating his opinion if he chooses, I simply want him to tell the truth if he is going to start stating information as fact. I'm not here to attack him. I do not care for him and that is my right, but I do not have to sit idly by and allow him to make comments as to my business or family and remain silent. I would appreciate Lee making no further comment regarding my family as he has in another thread that has since been closed.

 

Thank you.

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WOW, just WOW.. sounds like sour grapes by a wanna be. "I can't have candy, so NO ONE gets any". I gotta say, you're whole beef about Lee and the law sounds like a spoiled child. Why not just handle your own problems and quit trying to drag others into it? That's just like the driver that gets pulled over and whines about all the ones the cop DIDN'T stop.. waa waa waa.

 

Having owned a successful club here, for many years, I defended my OWN position on a couple of occasions, but never EVER whined about the other clubs that weren't being harassed. I guessing this could get more pathetic, but I can't imagine why you'd want to... geez.

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First off pretty much everyone that knows me knows I don't involve peoples families in anything. I have asked Julie to find that thread you state is here and bring it back up. IF I did ever say anything disrespectful regarding your family that I apologize right here publicly to you now. That is not something I do and if I did I was wrong and out of line.

 

As far as the residential part of your post. The Rooster has been there 31+ years. That was way out of town when it was built. ALL of the property around there was zoned industrial and manufacturing at the time and up until 8 years ago remained that way. When Mike sold off all the surrounding property it was still industrial zoning. The developers had the zoning changed and built houses. EVERY house built had a notice put in the disclosures that the Rooster is there and what it is. That is required by state law that it must be disclosed. We are the ONLY House/Building on that street. No one even has to drive by the Rooster to get to their home. Since the houses have been built there has NEVER been a single event filed with the police department about anything from the Rooster by the neighbors.

 

The part that is interesting about your statement is that when you ran Plush Parties they where held in a residential home. Why was it alright for you but not for someone that has been doing it 31+ years?

 

You state you are the only one the county has gone after. I assume you forget the six times they have come after the Rooster over the years. The last time 2.5 years in court to prove their law unconstitutional. They rewrote the law and two months later tried to open our case again but got told by the judge their new law is worse than their old law and there would be no reopening a case they lost.

 

You opened a club next to the strip club and opening night you spent hours talking to me on the phone. If you disliked me that much why the call?

 

At one point the Rooster was good enough for you as it is. You spent a lot of time there and brought many guests. Mike, Chris and I just keep trying to figure out why you keep reporting things to the D.A. and trying to take us out.

 

I have no desire to piss fight with you. It is a waste of both our times. Many would just prefer you fight your battles without involving everyone else that has worked many years to keep things going in Vegas.

 

I won't be posting in this thread any longer. Really don't have the desire or need.

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Here is the post you commented on regarding my wife and family. All innuendo as far as I can tell because I still don't know what it is you were trying to imply. It is obviously wrong and I think he knows it. My wife and children have done nothing to deserve any insult on their name or character in any way. Lee was commenting on a Las Vegas Review Journal article naming my wife and girlfriend as potential casting choices for a Las Vegas Real Housewives show. Incidentally, we just filmed a show in March 2013 that later aired in June on VH1 called "I'm Married To A" and it featured my entire family and it was a positive display of polyamorous people.

 

"If anyone uses Google and checks out the "Coopers" for Las Vegas or El Paso Texas you will then understand why it is funny that "Mrs" Cooper is involved in this.

 

Checking Court records in those area's also is interesting reading for that "family".

 

Lots to the background story that is not in that article."

 

As far as parties in residential areas are concerned, I still feel the same way. That's why I don't have a business running out of a home for swingers. It's true that the rooster was there first and we did enjoy it for a while. This doesn't mean we would do it again given what I know now. I really don't have a problem with people hosting parties if they aren't for money in a home on a regular basis, especially a huge volume of people. You may not agree with me and that is your right to your opinion, just like mine.

 

I am merely addressing Lee after his posting about me and my family, as well as my business for years now. I believe I have that right. Again, I'm not attacking him. I'm involved in a discussion. We were friendly with one another at one point in time. When I said In was the only one ever prevented from doing business by the county, I am correct. The rooster has fought successfully for years and I'm glad they have on some level, but I also realize this Lifestyle needs to get out in the open for it to flourish and it cannot do it in a house. Call it sour grapes all you like. I would challenge anyone to defend their business on an Equal Protection issue if they were the only ones disallowed from doing business. Anyone here can call me anytime if you would truly lime to discuss any thoughts. If not, debate me here. This is what forums are for. If you want to talk about me, get the facts, try talking to me, as well as about me. I would afford you the same opportunity, just as I have done here. Lee is correct in saying it does us no good to be at each other's throats. I'm sure he and Mike and Chris don't like me very much because I put them in a position to defend what they're doing. I don't expect them to like it or respect my view. I cannot control their thoughts or actions. I'm sure they would do the same if the tables were turned in reverse. I don't think Mike and Chris would sit by idly and allow everyone in town to do business while they're told they can't because it's illegal.

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I know I said I was done but I want to clear up one thing.

 

Each and Every time we got called into court to defend the rights of the Rooster we never threw anyone else under the bus.

 

You can review the thousands of pages of documents from the courts regarding the Rooster and you will never find one mention of any other place or person.

 

No, we did not sit back idly but we did not bring harm to anyone else in our defense.

 

By proving the counties law unconstitutional we helped others. It cannot be used to bring anyone down.

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My take:

 

Mr. Cooper, you have been a member of this site for less than a week, Lee has been here close to a decade. And while Lee and I do not always agree, I have never known him to be less than honest and forthright. I don't have anything to base you character on beyond a a few post. I am not calling your character into question, but in that regard, Lee gets a hell of lot of benefit of doubt because he has earned it in this forum.

 

Second, on your first post to this site begin by calling Lee biased, claiming he has defamed you, but you have yet to attack the factual legitimacy of what Lee has said. You only challenged that he did not state why you went out business, and that he brought you family into the matter in a previous post. Lee did not state why you went out of business, just that you did, which appears factually correct from your own statement. As for your family, Lee did not introduce them into the previous post. That post was about an article that appears to have interviewed your wife on her attempt at getting on a reality TV show. Lee merely commented on it. A comment that could be taken any number of ways.

 

Lee has stated that you do not seem to be a person we want in the lifestyle and frankly, from what I have seen, I would tend to agree. You have legitimate grievances against the county as far as I can tell, but in your zealous defense of your rights you have managed to put every other swingers club squarely in the sights or the county for investigation. To me, that says you are more concerned about making a buck off the lifestyle than the people in the lifestyle. We in the lifestyle have enough issues dealing with government interference and community phobia without someone who is portending the be one of us creating additional witch hunts be county officials.

 

I also watched some of your interviews with Face to Face. In those interviews you clearly imply that some, if not most, people associated with clubs, other than you own, are criminals and associated with the mob. It also appears that one man, whom you stated should not be in this business because he is a convicted felon, later becomes your eventual landlord. So on one hand he should not be involved in the LS business, on the other, you appear to be okay with it as long as it benefits you?

 

You also propagate the stereotype that people who attend swinger parties are registered and unregistered sex offenders and that is who is coming into peoples neighborhoods.

 

Neither of these instances set well with me as a swinger, and I imagine I am not alone. You actions and statements are not only giving ammo to the anti-swinger crowd, but guns and bombs as well. So no, I really am not wild about having you anywhere near the LS, you are not doing swingers any good. It appears you are only out to make a buck and prove a point at the expense of people in the LS, a group you claim you trying to serve. That makes zero sense.

 

The more you post and the more I see about what you are doing, the more Lee makes sense.

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You can believe what you want to believe if it makes you feel better about your opinion of me. You don't know me and you certainly don't know what level of sacrifice I have made for this lifestyle. I will not apologize for calling the county hypocritical and naming existing clubs that are operating. It is a court of law, not a forum of opinion. Facts are necessary to win in court. As for Lee saying the Rooster never mentioned names in their court proceedings, they never had to. It wouldn't have been a defense of any kind. The reason they were mentioned in my case is simple. We needed to illustrate to the court that Clark County was allowing other clubs to operate with impunity while denying me the same opportunity. It's very clear you really don't care if I'm in business or not, so you don't seem to be concerned with the facts. If you think I'm in business for the money only, you don't know me. I'm in it for the lifestyle and I expect to make a profit from it, just like you, the Rooster, or anyone else with a business in the lifestyle.

 

Terry Gordon, the man I mentioned as someone who shouldn't be allowed in a privileged license category, he was my landlord before the interview, not after. He leases, then subleases buildings like the Green Door, Hushh Club, etc to the owners of these businesses. Terry was the owner of the building I rented when I purchased the business the County refused to re-license, even though it had been the original location for the Green Door and was operating as a sex club when I bought it. There's a lot more to this case than what you see in one Jon Ralston "Face to Face" episode. If you really care for the facts, you should immerse yourself in the case and then state opinion. I'm open to discussing the case if you want to be relevant and fair regarding the facts. If not, I'll pass.

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My opinion is just that, an opinion. It does not make me feel one way or another. It is simply my view on the subject.

 

I have always believed it best to judge people and their character based on their actions. The sum total of what I know about you I have draw from your actions in this forum, your statements in the two interviews I saw from 2008 and 2013, and the audio of the court proceedings. If you would like people to have a different opinion of you, perhaps you should take a different tack. If you don't care, then I am not sure why you bothered to come here and post "don't believe everything you read when (Lee) attacks my character".

 

The path you and your attorneys have chosen is a legitimate legal strategy. But that does not mean it is a GOOD strategy when view from beyond the court room. Your attorneys obligation is to argue the facts or law, which ever is on your side. But you, as the client, have the last say in what path they take in the matter.

 

I certainly do no begrudge anyone from making a profit in this niche market and clearly several other clubs have made decisions that resulted in them opening and operating a business in the environment that exist in Clark county. Your decisions have not had the same results. Perhaps the county wants to passively allow these clubs to operate in with a don't ask, don't tell mentally with regards to swingers clubs. Perhaps they just wanted that property or perhaps you just pissed off the wrong people. I have no idea. And, I agree that none of those are legitimate reasons to prevent you from operating a business like the other clubs. Being in the lifestyle you should understand the FACT is there is baggage that comes with participating the lifestyle, let alone running a business in the lifestyle. Part of that baggage is there are enough anti-swinger voters to cause politicians will take a stand in high profile situations in order to appease them in order to get re-elected. Unjust and hypocritical? Yes. But it is the environment in which we live.

 

In the end you chose a path that focused an an already negative spotlight on swingers in general, and more specifically, swinging clubs in your area. The FACT is your decision are putting the politicians in the position to risk re-election by approving your petition or choosing to look tough by going after other clubs. And while you may have won in court I think the getting the county to cave on your petition is highly unlikely. Instead you arguments in court boil down to "if I cannot operate a swinger club, neither should anyone else". To me it is far more likely we will see the county to go after the other clubs.

 

Best case, you have made some poor business decisions. Worst case you are throwing other swingers and clubs under the bus. None of that sounds very good for swingers, so I understand why Lee would think you are not someone we want in the lifestyle. I would attend to agree because at best it sounds like you have made poor business decisions. Worst case you sound as hypocritical as the politicians you are railing against.

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I'm not sure you understand this is an ongoing case that is in court now that I've won the appeal. It has nothing to do with whether or not the County Commissioners want to agree or disagree any longer. It will be decided by the court, unless the County decides to settle and we both agree. In the event of settlement, it could go either way. It all depends on what the evidence amounts to as to whether it motivates settlement.

 

You seem to make a case that all swingers are always going to be looked down upon by the government. I make the case for the opposite. I've had several private meetings with elected officials regarding this industry in Las Vegas. You would be surprised if you knew what has been discussed. Many don't have a problem with it and some have indicated they would rather see it legalized if it means it is fair and, more importantly, regulated to provide for health and safety in places where this business occurs. I don't want to live in the shadows and have no problem being unpopular with people who believe as you do. I will not sit back and take my lumps so others can profit and maintain the status quo.

 

It is necessary for someone to stand up and make changes so that swinging can become an acceptable lifestyle and enjoy the same protection as all other freedoms of expression. I respectfully disagree with your assertions regarding my business choices and decisions. I know you don't have and apparently don't wish to learn more information. If you choose your opinions with little information and a self imposed limitation to acquire more, it's not my issue. If you really want to debate and correspond, email me and we can talk by phone. If not, I'm ok with it either way. I chose to address Lee so he knows I will respond to all future comments should he choose to discuss me in the future. Other than this, I really have nothing to say to Lee for any reason. I'm not attacking him, only explaining where I believe he has erred.

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David Cooper said:
I'm not sure you understand this is an ongoing case that is in court now that I've won the appeal. It has nothing to do with whether or not the County Commissioners want to agree or disagree any longer. It will be decided by the court, unless the County decides to settle and we both agree. In the event of settlement, it could go either way. It all depends on what the evidence amounts to as to whether it motivates settlement.

 

I fully understand the decision in the case in question was reversed by the court of appeals. I also understand that your appeal was based the equal protection clause. I do not know the political climate or attitudes of the electorate of Clark County, but if it is anti-swinger enough, I do know that the politicians can, and most likely will, find a way to prevent you from opening. Even if it means cracking down on the other swinger establishments. Which is one of the reasons I state I do not think what you are doing is good for the lifestyle, at least not in Clark County.

 

David Cooper said:
You seem to make a case that all swingers are always going to be looked down upon by the government. I make the case for the opposite. I've had several private meetings with elected officials regarding this industry in Las Vegas.

 

Yes, private meetings. What politicians say and do in private is all too often completely counter to what they do in office. You could have agreement from 100% of the elected officials in private, some even in public. If, however, their constituents oppose swinging, I seriously doubt many, if any, will take a stand and vote in your favor. History is not on your side in the paradigm.

 

David Cooper said:
You would be surprised if you knew what has been discussed. Many don't have a problem with it and some have indicated they would rather see it legalized if it means it is fair and, more importantly, regulated to provide for health and safety in places where this business occurs. I don't want to live in the shadows and have no problem being unpopular with people who believe as you do. I will not sit back and take my lumps so others can profit and maintain the status quo.

 

Nothing about who is in the lifestyle or who does or does support it would surprise me.

 

I do not expect you to take your lumps. But the question remains, if you are being treated differently why? And what could you have done differently that would not have put you in the position to feel you needed to put other establishments in jeopardy or to go on television and paint swingers other club owners in such a negative light.

 

David Cooper said:
It is necessary for someone to stand up and make changes so that swinging can become an acceptable lifestyle and enjoy the same protection as all other freedoms of expression.

I applaud people that are willing to stand up for the lifestyle, just not the ones that imply swingers are sex offenders in a public forum or throw other lifestyle establishments under the bus to achieve their goals.

 

David Cooper said:
I respectfully disagree with your assertions regarding my business choices and decisions.

 

I understand a little about business.

Good business people make good decisions. Great ones make great decisions, which includes understanding and mitigating risk. You have spent at least 6 figures as well as several years for a business that has operated for a grand total of 2 months. An assertion you did not dispute. Had you managed your risk better and made different decision you may well now be operating in the black, rather than continuing in court. It seems like you have managed your risk poorly, or have a very strange business strategy.

 

David Cooper said:
I know you don't have and apparently don't wish to learn more information. If you choose your opinions with little information and a self imposed limitation to acquire more, it's not my issue. If you really want to debate and correspond, email me and we can talk by phone. If not, I'm ok with it either way.

 

If you wish to enlighten me with you side of the story then by all means feel free to PM you email address and you can send me anything you like.

 

David Cooper said:
I chose to address Lee so he knows I will respond to all future comments should he choose to discuss me in the future. Other than this, I really have nothing to say to Lee for any reason. I'm not attacking him, only explaining where I believe he has erred.

You have not attacked Lee? My response is your own words.

David Cooper said:
He is obviously biased ........ I have watched him defame me for years....... he attacks my character.........there is competition at stake when he speaks.

Those are words from you very first post in this community. To date each of these claims you have failed to substantiate.

 

As I said, I have no personal connection or even knowledge of Lee beyond this forum. Also, as I said, my opinion of you is not based on anything Lee has said. You have earned it by your own words and actions. If you actions in this forum are exemplary of how you act regularly, well.........enough said.

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I never implied swingers were sex offenders and you know it. You only seem to enjoy misappropriating comments and taking things out of context to suit your point. I said it was an unacceptable risk for a home in a largely populated community to serve 800 people a week. I asked the County Commissioners what they would do if a sex offender was introduced to the neighborhood where the Rooster is and later commits a sexual assault and/or murder in the neighborhood. They would have a huge public reaction and it wouldn't be positive for them. Don't worry, they didn't respond in public, only in closed quarters. If you think it couldn't occur, please elaborate. I don't need to send you anything to convince you to listen to my point of view. If you wish to continue to debate me,fine by me. It's perfectly obvious you have your opinion about me and that's your issue. I've only allowed you to contact me privately as a courtesy, not out of desperation. You watched a couple of portions of interviews, read some legal text, and read my words taking them out of context as much as possible. I personally don't care to continue in this fashion, so don't be disappointed if I choose not to engage you each time you speak. If your thoughts require me to explain,I might. I don't know you and I don't owe you. I responded to Lee as a primary issue. You and your opinion do rise to the same level of concern. Just make sure whatever you say about me is a fact, unless it is an opinion. I wish you all the best as well and you have a good day.

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I never implied swingers were sex offenders and you know it.

 

Your words

 

On club owners:

"When it is vague to whether or not is legal or it is legal or what not legitimate people tend to stay away because of the generality of that."

 

The vast majority of club owners I know are very legitimate people, as are the swingers. I do tend to avoid and take exception to illegitimate people trying to do nothing more than make a buck of the LS.

 

On owners and patrons to swing clubs:

"With criminal background checks you don’t have convicted felons holding business licenses for these of business which take away the sordid, you know, again, sordid cast of characters that participate in the operation of these business and the conduct there in"

 

Those sordid swingers that are participating in the "conduct there in".

 

On owners and patrons to swing clubs:

"They post the address on the internet where anybody, you know, can visit these places including, you know, registered and unregistered sex offenders that are coming into peoples neighborhoods."

 

This sounds like arguments we have heard from anti-swingers are regards to swingers in general. Now they have a self professed swinger saying the same thing. Yes, there sex offenders in the LS, but no more so than any other walk of life, perhaps far less. But your words can be used by anti-swingers to point at and say "look, even swingers admit they are sex offenders". Not very savy as a tactic to get people to accept swinging as legitimate.

 

I asked the County Commissioners what they would do if a sex offender was introduced to the neighborhood where the Rooster is and later commits a sexual assault and/or murder in the neighborhood. They would have a huge public reaction and it wouldn't be positive for them. Don't worry, they didn't respond in public, only in closed quarters. If you think it couldn't occur, please elaborate.

 

I absolutely know it could happen, if a swingers club is there or not. But you, as many anti-swingers do, case the question with the initial premise that the Rooster and swingers clubs, are at the root of the problem.

 

I don't need to send you anything to convince you to listen to my point of view. If you wish to continue to debate me,fine by me. It's perfectly obvious you have your opinion about me and that's your issue. I've only allowed you to contact me privately as a courtesy, not out of desperation.

 

You offered more information to correct what you see as my failure to understand and lack of desire to learn the facts. I gave you that opportunity. If you choose not to take, I will loose no sleep, but will have no reason to believe I am incorrect in anything I have stated.

 

 

You watched a couple of portions of interviews, read some legal text, and read my words taking them out of context as much as possible. I personally don't care to continue in this fashion, so don't be disappointed if I choose not to engage you each time you speak.

 

I just referencing what the public record is on your actions and comments. I would not be disappointed if you never posted again. No skin off my teeth if you do or do not post.

 

 

If your thoughts require me to explain,I might. I don't know you and I don't owe you. I responded to Lee as a primary issue. You and your opinion do rise to the same level of concern. Just make sure whatever you say about me is a fact, unless it is an opinion. I wish you all the best as well and you have a good day.

 

You do not owe me anything. Neither do I owe you, including not owing you the benefit of doubt. You have had every opportunity to refute what I and others have said here with facts, but you only want to tell me I don't understand, I am misinformed. When I accept your offer to give me more information, by email rather than phone, you refuse.

 

Perhaps it is time for me to put the troll food in the pantry.

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    • By MenPoundMyWife
      My wife and I have been married for over 10 years. She is 5'4, about 130lbs, 34F, and very fit. 
       
      We dated for couple of years before getting married. From the very beginning, she was the most sexual woman I had ever met. Soon after we started dating, she started to push me to talk about her former lovers. Slowly, I started to get turned on by the stories and became more and more curious about her past sexual experiences with boyfriends before me. Eventually, we got married, and few years later, she started to throw hints of wanting to raise her score. I quickly got on board and we started to regularly talk about how other men would fuck her and so forth.
       
      Finally, during a trip to Vegas, we decided to visit a sex club and she was very excited, although a little nervous. She wore a new tight black dress with red lingerie underneath. We got to the club and just hung out. She was very uneasy and she said she had never been to a place like this. About 30 minutes in, we were starting to talk about leaving, she suddenly pointed at a slightly older guy and said: "Go bring him here." My dick was hard as a rock. I walked up to the guy and asked if he is interested in my wife, he had been staring at her the entire time. He quickly smiled and said, "Oh yes, let's go."
       
      They shook hands, introduced themselves and we all decided to find the area with beds and more privacy (so to speak). We found a room downstairs that was only enclosed by a curtain. She told me to go and get condoms so she can get to know the guy for a few minutes. When I came back, they were just talking, slowly, she walked up to me and started kissing me. Once I let go, I gestured to the guy to go ahead; he quickly moved in on her. They started making out, he started kissing her all over the place, slowly, she dropped backwards on bed and pulled him on top of herself. 
       
      He lowered her dress and started sucking her big tits. She asked me to join in. We each had a tit in our mouth and we were both fingering her pussy at the same time. Slowly, I moved down and started eating her pussy. She is always fully waxed like a porn star. As soon as I stopped eating her pussy as she came, he went down and started eating it. Slowly, I moved back up and she took my dick in her mouth. 
       
      To our surprise, a crowd gathered and four other men wanted to fuck her. She shook her head but they all watched her get pounded. 
       
      The guy that went in there with us, quickly got naked and tugged at her red thong. She took it off and handed it to me. This whole time, she was playing with my dick, it's about 5.5". The guy was much larger, about 7". She looked at it and winked at me. She told him she likes it rough.
       
      He had it fully up and moved close to her pussy. She stared into my eyes, grabbed his dick and guided it to rub her pussy. He took his clue and shoved it in. She reminded him to not be gentle. He obliged and fucked her like a whore. She begged for more by saying, "Oh yeah, fuck me, fuck me hard...look babe, he is fucking me so good, he is so big, look, he is fucking your wife right in front of you....oh yeah, fuck me." About four other guys and a couple were now watching her get fucked. I asked her if I should tell them to leave, she said no, she likes it. She slowly turned to them so they can get the full view of a dick in her pussy while she was playing with mine. 
       
      Once the guy got done, she said, "Okay honey, this was awesome," and kissed me multiple times thanking me for a great experience. She said she wanted to stay for a few before we walked out. She wanted to walk around and be noticed as the woman who had just been fucked, since rest of the crowd was just hanging out.
       
      We cannot wait to do it again.  
       
    • By Wendans
      My fantasy has always been to watch my wife get fucked by another man. We have been with another woman before which is a whole story in itself that I’ll tell you about later.
       
      One night several years ago my wife and I had gone to a club. Not your ordinary club, but a good club for swingers and singles. The night had started out rather slow and we were not finding any action that I had hoped. My wife knows what she wants and that is what we go with. And that night we found what she wanted and it was such a great experience she knew she wanted to do it again. She had gotten fucked by a black guy and she had enjoyed it. So, when we got the chance, she wanted to try it again.
       
      Being at a swinger’s club isn’t really her thing, but fucking in front of people or listening to them fuck is a big turn-on for her. Since we don’t live close to any swingers’ clubs or anything of that nature, we don’t get many opportunities to do anything like this.
       
      A couple of years ago we got a chance to go to another club. Yes, one of those clubs. We were looking for a little fun and hoping to find something as good as the last time we were out. We talked to many people as the night went on and my wife was trying to figure out what we were going to be doing to have fun that night. There was a hot blonde that was interested in us and kept on grabbing my cock which my wife was loving because this was getting her going. My wife and I decided that this was not what we had in mind for tonight, so we just kind of let that slide and we went on to pursue something else. She said she would know it when she saw it.
       
      My wife had put a couple of drinks down and was feeling pretty good now. She was a little more daring and said she wanted to go change outfits like she did when we had been to a club previously. We had brought the very same sexy outfit that was see through, so she went and changed into it. When she came back out, there was not one guy's eyes on anyone but her. Even the women were looking on in awe. She is a beautiful woman that knows how to control a room.
       
      One guy came up to me and told me he was jealous. He said he would do anything to get to fuck my wife, but she just didn’t feel right with him, I guess. As we were standing around, in came this well-built younger black guy and I think she almost came right there. The look on her face was almost mind blowing. She got this horny grin and told me she was ready to start our night. As he walked by her, she gave him this dirty smile and took her hand and rubbed down by her cunt. He stopped walking and came over to her and asked if he could help her with anything. She just smiled and said that I think you already know what you can do. They danced around a little bit, but I could tell she couldn’t take it anymore, so she quickly unzipped his pants and took out his cock and grabbed it and lead him into another room like a dog on a leash.
       
      I stayed back a couple of minutes to give them some time to get to know each other. When I did finally get to the other room, they had already undressed and she was sucking his cock. It was larger than mine. Not much longer, but thicker. I could tell she liked it.
       
      My wife had picked a room where people would be able to watch if they wanted to. I stayed back in the wings and was kind of hidden so she really didn’t know I was even there.  As I watched my wife in action, I could tell she was enjoying every second of this guy’s cock. She was sucking it like there was no tomorrow.
       
      Now it was his turn to return the favor. He got his face down to her pussy and started licking like it was candy. She was turning red and I could tell she was already about to cum. She was squirming and shaking and he was getting her cunt all ready for his big shaft. But before he fucked her, he now spread her legs out and started fingering her pussy to the point that she started squirting fluids all over the sheet they were laying on. It was like the flood gates had opened up and all the juices were flowing.
       
      She finally had all she could take because I’m sure she had cum multiple times already and I could tell she just wanted to have him inside her. I heard her say to give me your big, black cock. He asked her if she wanted him to put on a condom and she told him no, she wanted to feel him inside her cunt.
       
      He took her and spread her legs wide and slowly inserted his bbc into her tight cunt. She told him to go slowly because she said it was so big that she needed to get used to it. After several minutes of the slow movement, she said she needed him to fuck her harder so he started to go full penetration into her dripping wet cunt. She was telling him how good his cock felt, and how she loved fucking him.
       
      They switched positions multiple times with her sitting on top of his cock and riding him like she has never ridden before. My wife took his whole cock inside of her as deeply as she could, rubbing back and forth and cumming time and time again.
       
      They finally switched back to missionary style and were fucking hard when I heard her say to him, she wanted him to cum in her pussy. She said she wanted to feel his cum drip out of her pussy all night long. When he heard her say that, he started to pick up the pace and finally started moaning and said he was about to cum. My wife was now cumming herself and as he shot his load inside of her, she started squirming and shaking with every pulse of his exploding cock. Her body was red from all of her orgasms, and I could tell she was getting worn out. They had gone for almost 40 minutes of nonstop action. Not to mention that all the other people that had gathered around to watch started going to other parts of the place as they had gotten a show that they would remember forever.
       
      When he pulled his now soft cock out of my wife, I could see the cum dripping down her ass. She was getting what she wanted, I guess. She would be able to feel his cum dripping out of her the rest of the night. But I didn’t realize that she was not done yet. She wanted more. My wife took his cock and started sucking on it again. I guess he was young enough that almost instantly he got hard and she took his cock and guided it into her cunt and said she needed more of his cum. He fucked her for another 10 minutes until he exploded with more cum inside my wife’s pussy again. Again, as I watched the cum drip down her ass, she was getting what she wanted. She was going to feel this the rest of the night.
       
      They both started cleaning up a little and I slowly came out of the crowd that had gathered. She saw me and gave me that dirty little smile she sometimes gets. My wife asked me if I had enjoyed her show. She said she needed to have a little more cum in her pussy tonight and she now wanted mine. Her new little friend just kind of sat back in the corner and decided to watch us.
       
      I knew I wouldn’t last long because I had almost cum multiple times just watching her. With some of the crowd still watching I got undressed, and slid my wet with pre-cum cock into my wife’s cum-loaded pussy. I fucked her until she started cumming. Her cunt convulsed so hard that it squeezed my cock and made me start to cum. I came in her pussy, mixing my cum with my wife’s new fuck buddies cum. I pulled my cock out and watched it all slowly slide down her ass. She got up and went over to our young fuck buddy and she gave him a long passionate kiss and said thank you for such a great time. He gave her one last little finger fucking and handed her a card of his if we were ever in the area again.
       
      He left after he got dressed and we got cleaned up and went out to the main room. I had multiple people including women and even the bartender say that my wife was one of the women they would like to fuck if they ever got a chance after seeing her in action. I guess I’m the lucky one here.
       
      Later that night when we were driving to our resort, she slipped her hand down pants and put her fingers in her pussy. She brought them out and rubbed them on my face. She smiled and said we gotta do this again sometime as we pulled into the parking lot to call it a night.
       
      And what a night it was.
    • By SPaige24
      My husband and I have been together for almost 10 years. I have always been bi- curious, but kept it as secret until the last month. Little did I know that he had a small feeling (thanks to a few drunk nights with my friend). Our marriage is very strong, and we are very opened with each other. I told him that I wanted to have a have sexual encounter with another female. He is on board, and we even talked about a MFM threesome as well.
       
      Here is my issue... How do I find someone? That friend is no longer a friend, I can't do dating apps because of my job, and I personally don't want someone we know. I have looked into Swinger Clubs, and I realize that finding a bisexual/lesbian female who is single is hard. We are opened to a couple if need be. I just want my husband there and or involved.
       
      My question is... What is it like going to a swingers club? Will there be people our age (27-30), are "predators" real, and how do I find a club? We are located in Washington, PA.
    • By AdamGunn2
      It was a fairly typical night at D.J.s Island, an early autumn evening. Mary and I hadn’t set anything up in advance, we’d decided to go almost at the last moment. From the second we entered the door our radar was beaming across the club, searching for a couple that might be searching for what we were also interested in - an enjoyable tryst.
       
      Mary took a few minutes to change into what she called a ‘trolling outfit.’ As I remember, that night it was a black babydoll with a loose bodice, thong, low heels. Many men admired her legs as I checked the forty or so women, many as scantily clad as my wife. None of our regular playmates seemed to be in attendance that evening, but we had our customs, we weren’t concerned. Perhaps an hour and a half later, I sat at a table next to the dance floor, Mary was on her feet, on the parquet, moving her body, seeing if anyone would move in. A slow sequence of men approached her, danced with her. Some would take liberties such as moving their hands under her garment, feeling the small of her back, perhaps place their palm on the roundness of her ass.
       
      I’d seen this many times before, I waited for one of two reactions.
       
      The first was that she’d spin away from the man; it signified she wasn’t interested in what he had to offer.
       
      The second was that she’d get closer, I’d watch her whisper in his ear. I knew the question, “Where’s your wife?” Some of them would shake their heads, they were attending as one of the few single men the club allowed, and when they received Mary’s response, they’d move away - that’s not what we were looking for at the moment.
       
      But the man might indicate where his wife was dancing a few feet away. When this kind of thing happened, Mary would glance to me and give our special signal - she’d put one hand on the back of her head, one on her stomach. When I got the cue, I’d come out, we’d dance as a foursome.
       
      As I approached, a man grasped the elbow of a tall attractive lady who was more modestly dressed, at least for the club. There was no conversation on the dance floor, the heavy volume of music and the thumping of the bass wouldn’t allow for speech. But I could tell the woman was interested in me, the four of us paired off and I often found myself facing this vixen. It was obvious they were as interested in us as I was in them, I could tell by the way Mary was rubbing against the man that she felt the same.
       
      After a couple of songs, Mary led the way off the floor, holding his hand, leading us off into a corner away from the speakers. As we sat, the man said, “I’m Ed, this is my wife, Marilyn.”
       
      Marilyn and I softly shook hands, I believe she raised the hem of her skirt to give me a view of her upper thighs. Ed had no problem seeing Mary’s legs, or where they met - she was sitting so that the babydoll was gathered to her side, leaning forward so her globes were exposed to his view.
       
      “Do you come here often?” Ed asked.
       
      “Every few weeks,” I responded, “you?”
       
      “This is our first time here.” Mary gave him a look that asked for further info. “We’re just starting this,” he admitted.
       
      Marilyn picked it up. “We’ve only had one time with a couple of friends. We liked it, heard about this place, decided to see if we could get into more trouble.”
       
      “Trouble’s our middle name,” I joked.
       
      Our conversation continued, where do you live, what movies have you seen lately, etc. It was a screen, of course, we were all calculating if the four of us would be pleasurable bedmates. I paid my attention to Marilyn, my wife had told me numerous times not to worry about her, she can take care of herself. My hand found Marilyn’s knee, she smiled at me, encouraged me to reach a tad higher. We bent towards each other, our mouths met.
       
      Marilyn opened her lips to me, the kiss was ardent, her mouth moist. She licked at my upper lip, her hand fondled the back of my neck. Our tongues clashed, promising cupidity, mimicking what I presumed our bodies might be doing in a few scant moments.
       
      We broke for a moment, Marilyn invited, “Would you guys want to go to one of the rooms?”
       
      I, of course, was all for it, but then I heard Mary. “Uh, not right now. But thanks.”
       
      We’ve always had the guideline that if one person doesn’t want to do something, she speaks for both of us. Regretfully, I pecked at Marilyn’s lips a last time, we stood, went separate ways.
       
      “You’re not upset, are you?” Mary asked me.
       
      “Of course not, not at all. You’re not in the mood?”
       
      “Oh, I’m in the mood all right, just not with Ed.”
       
      “Something wrong with him?” I asked.
       
      “I tried to get him interested,” Mary revealed, “but his kiss was a little cold, indifferent. I put my hand on his leg, he was too busy watching you and Marilyn, he never responded. My guess is that if we went into a room, he’d be watching you two, I’m not even sure he’d get hard for me.” It was a reasonable thought, it had happened to us a couple times before. “Hope you don’t mind, bet she’d have been a firecracker.”
       
      “Maybe. But you’re a firecracker too.”
       
      We headed back to the dance floor, in search of another couple.
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