Broken Rules, Jealousy & Arguments...we want patient and honest help please.

anc · June 9, 2010

Hello to all and we hope someone can help us with my (his) problem in this lifestyle!!!

Please read in its entirety. I (him) will be completely honest because we want completely honest answers!!! We have both created this together. It is very long because we want whoever is reading it to be able to give us true answers that will help. Thanks in advance.

We've been married for over 16 yrs and have been together for 17. We are deeply in love with each other. We both love sex!!! We have a wonderful marriage and have never fought or even disagreed about anything other than this part of our lives. Below we have told you the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth,….so help us please! We know we both have jealousy issues although him way more than her.

Anyhow when we were dating my wife told me she had had a dream of a MFM. I told her I always dreamt of a MFF. I told her that her dream of a MFM would never happen because I could never see her with another man and I meant it. She told me that it was just a dream and that her true fantasy was to do a MMFF. I told her that that would never happen either because my greatest fear would be to see her lose it with another man.

Anyhow, 6 yrs later she gave me a MFF with her best friend of over 15 years then. She was recently divorced. We didn't talk about any rules or anything prior to it. We were stupid and uneducated. We thought swinging was a myth and really didn't think it existed.

Her friend flew to us to visit. The first night started with very little foreplay, and then her girlfriend started to seduce me and then sat on me and continued to do so. We then got into it hot and heavy. It became just me and her girlfriend. We did everything, you name it, we did it. (minus anal) I basically forgot about my wife the rest of the session.

Afterwards she cried and we fought about it. I ran out of things to say and fell asleep. It seemed nothing I said would help. The next night she did the same for me and I fucked up again. The same thing happened the second night. She cried and we fought again and yet again we did it the third night.

The third night while we're doing it I tried to give wife some attention and she demanded me to just f*#$ her! We both remember me doing so and practically almost breaking down in tears while doing it.

After her girlfriend flew back home she cried, we fought again. She hated me and I didn’t know what to say to fix what I’d done so I basically just tried to love her and avoid the conversations.

A year and a half later her friend came to visit again. I promised myself I’d never forget about my wife again. In doing so, when the three of us did it again I made it a point to do everything equal. Afterwards my wife pointed out that I licked her girlfriend and not her and she was pissed because I was a robot. She said that it was like a slap in the face to her. We argued about it again and every time I ever did anything wrong she would through all four experiences in my face.

2 years passed and the same girlfriend got married. I decided to give my wife the foursome she always wanted because I felt I owed her for all my mistakes. We did it with her friend and her husband but beforehand I made a list of things my wife couldn’t do because of my greatest fear of seeing her with another man. She promised me that she would never let that happen. Her rules were: no kissing, no looking in the other mans eyes, no necking, no seducing, and whichever man came first the wife had to finish off their own man. Again we didn’t want to make my greatest fear come true. My rule was no kissing. We both agreed and went into it.

We did it with them about 15 times with those rules. Each time before and afterwards she would throw the past in my face. With each time I would pay more and more attention to her and enjoy it less and less. She never really enjoyed the experiences either. We both however enjoyed parts of each experience and that’s what made us do it over and over again.

I must point out that you all think her girlfriend was hot but she was not. She was not my taste. Some might say ugly. She had an ugly personality and was over my weight standards. To me it was just about sex.

Eventually, I lifted the no kissing rule for my wife but all other remained the same. We kept the other rules because of my greatest fear and she again promised she would never let that happen. We did it another 5-6 times but my wife and the other guy never kissed. He was scared of me and my wife never wanted to go for the kiss. She always waited for him to initiate it and he never did out of fear even though I told him it was ok. Me and her girlfriend did everything but keep in mind I always paid attention to my wife so I never really enjoyed it. Again, over each time the past was thrown in my face before and after each experience.

One time the four of us were in a hotel room and the women were sucking off the other’s husbands. My wife made him cum and then there was a moment where we all looked at each other. She wanted to finish sucking and her husbands said go ahead. I looked at my wife and she gave me an expressionless face and threw her hands up as if to say, fuck it, go ahead. Her girlfriend did so. It was the most unenjoyable blow job ever. I had to stiffen my legs and force myself to cum. Afterwards she threw the fact that I broke that rule in my face.

We both decided to pursue swinging since it never worked with her girlfriend and her husband. We enjoyed parts of each experience but never the whole thing. I learned that I enjoyed the MFM portions of each experience, and I mean I really enjoyed those!!! And so did she!!! My wife is bi but it seemed her girlfriend just did it to do it. Her girlfriend never got into it (seducing me) like she did the first three times we did it with just her during all the times after she married. Neither my wife nor I were attracted to them in the least bit. They became boring to both of us.

I talked my wife into getting an account on a swinger website and we searched for another couple. I told her that all her all rules were lifted if we were to do this. I felt guilty for being greedy for so many years of having her abide by rules which were unfair. I just asked her again to never allow my greatest fear to happen and again she promised it wouldn’t. We agreed on using condoms since we were getting ready to do it with couples we didn’t know. The reason we didn’t use condoms with her girlfriend and her husband was because all four of us were in monogamous marriages and myself and he were fixed (couldn’t make babies).

We eventually met up with another couple and he was overweight and she was not. We ended up getting a hotel room and when he undressed it grossed both of us out. We started it anyway. To make a long story short, my wife took one for the team and I felt really bad for her. This experience only resulted in a soft-swap due to the other guy cumming to fast. It lasted probably about 15-20 minutes so I never got to see my wife without rules.

Months later we hooked with another couple. Both were our taste. We agreed on no rules except that if one guy cums the appropriate wife had to finish the other man off. We also had 3 signals: one to pick things up, one to bring things down, and one to stop altogether.

It started out with foreplay and I came in less than 5 minutes. I couldn’t get hard the rest of the foreplay time because I was seeing my wife without rules. Luckily the other woman was my taste and I just kept licking her. This went on for about 3 hours. My wife and I had a lot of eye contact. The last 15 minutes of the foreplay I signaled to her that I needed assistance with getting hard and she obliged by sucking my tool. We took a break and the other man gave me a pill (Viagra). About 20 minutes later we went into round two.

Round two basically started with 2 minutes of foreplay then condoms went on. I could tell my wife felt unsure of letting go so I grabbed her head and looked into her eyes and let her go. She came right then and there! This happened about a minute after we threw condoms on. We continued to fuck opposite partners. I felt myself getting into it and snapped out of it and grabbed my wife’s ankle and pulled her across the bed to lick her while I was fucking the other chick. I did this because I didn’t want her to feel forgotten about like the very first MFF.

After he started to fuck my wife I got into it with the other female and basically got caught up in the moment. I pretty much did every position known to man with her. Then I took the other woman from the bed to the ottoman at the foot-end of the bed. (When I did so I broke a rule which I forgot to mention earlier that was set from the time we decided to do a foursome with her girlfriend and husband years ago. This rule was that in all foursomes all people had to stay on the same bed.) About 2 minutes after moving the other woman to the ottoman I hit me that I fucked up and I looked up at my wife who really didn’t give me any reason to stop or change what I was doing. So I kept on doing her on the ottoman. I looked again which seemed to me to be about 5 minutes and saw my wife sitting on him. We made eye contact. It hurt me and turned me on at the same time and I instantly came. When I did the other woman turned and swallowed me. I pushed her off because I didn’t want my wife to see it and upset her. My wife kept with the rules. After I came she got off the other man and put his wife on him. My wife did finally let loose but was still a little reserved because she was unsure of whether or not she was truly being let go.

After we left my wife thanked me for letting her go. She told me that I fucked up by moving the chick to the ottoman but never really got mad at me. She did however get mad because I didn’t let myself enjoy being swallowed. I was in total bliss for three days afterwards and then on the 4th day I had flashes of seeing my wife alone with another man and broke down at work; literally in tears. This went on for about 2 weeks.

After that couple we went back to her girlfriend and her husband two more times. One of those times we decided to do a full-swap with them for two reasons: to loosen them up and to try a full-swap for the very first time. I blew my load first and looked up at him banging my wife. I didn’t like it so I tried to put my tool in her mouth. She gave me an ugly face and pushed me away. It ended within 30 seconds after that. We talked after that and I found out she was mad at me because I never looked at her and she told me that she pushed me away because she was mad about that as well as that I came to her because she believed I couldn’t see her with another man and that’s the only reason I came to her.

I told her that she was right but also wrong because I normally always came to her during the previous acts because I didn’t want to make her feel I’d forgotten about her, which was true. I never wanted to hurt her like I did the first MFF. I did admit I came to her that time out of jealousy but all the previous times I did it because I didn’t want to hurt her and also truly enjoyed doing MFM with her. I also told her I didn’t look at her because we agreed to do a full-swap and that that wasn’t a rule and I really didn’t want to see her alone with another man anyways. We both agreed afterwards that a full-swap was not for us.

She later expressed to me she didn’t want to just meet and fuck people. She preferred to get to know them first. So we started to get into the lifestyle by going to clubs, and meet and greets.

A year later we finally met up with another couple. The second date we went home with them. My wife finally got her girl-girl experience where she licked the other female for about an hour. The other chick never returned the favor. Later that night we all went to bed but the other guy drink a little too much and couldn’t get up. It lasted for about 20 minutes before he walked out. I fucked the other chick but finished when he was done without cumming.

After about 3 more dates with this couple the four of us went into the bedroom again. We refer to this as the “Fatal Friday”. This is how it went:

We went into the bedroom and I was the last to get on the bed. Everyone was naked and in the bed before I got my clothes off. My wife was already between the other man’s legs and looked back at me because they made it seem they wanted a full-swap. When we made eye contact we both knew that’s what they wanted. I looked at her and shook my head as if to say hell no. I thought she understood especially because she had always thrown my mistakes of breaking rules in my face over the past 10 years. Anyhow, while I licked the other woman my wife sucked him for about 30 seconds, he flipped her over and licked her for about 30 seconds, threw a condom on, and put it inside of her. I saw my wife’s face of enjoyment and it hurt. I still thought it was going to turn out as a foursome. I then felt I was behind in the game so I threw a condom on and put it in the other chick. My wife was thrown into the doggie style position and her head was right beside me so I grabbed her hair, pulled it back and kissed her. Her eyes were closed and she really didn’t kiss back. I had to do it again to get her to kiss back. The second time I pulled it very hard and got the kiss I wanted. That turned me on but also off because I knew my wife was actually enjoying it this time. I felt this was not going to be a foursome. About 10 minutes into it pushed her head into the bed, she looked at me while I was fucking the other chick and said “fuck her”. She bit my arm and the bite kind fell off me as she fell off into total bliss. I then knew I was in for a bad experience. I didn’t stop it because I had made a decision to myself that I was going to let her go before we even went into this experience. I felt very mad about her not believing I could see her with another man so I just let it happen. I figured that if I egged her on she would do the same in return out of gratitude. That never happened. In fact she never came to me throughout the whole experience and never made eye contact with me from 10 minutes on. The experience lasted about two-and-half to three hours. I couldn’t stay hard because I watched 99% of her getting pleasure. Her pleasured face and sounds destroyed me. Her eyes were closed the whole time. I even watched her take the man and seduce him. Everything looked exactly the way I would imagine it looks if I were to be a fly on the wall looking at us doing it alone together our whole marriage. I just tired to remain hard. I did see an opportunity about an hour into it where I put my stuff in her mouth and she opened her eyes in disgust (like she didn’t want it) but she then took it. This lasted about 3 minutes. I was hard again and went back to the other chick. I immediately became limp again. The chick tried her best to keep me hard but each time I put a condom on it went limp within 30 seconds to 2 minutes. I once again saw a chance to be with my wife. I went to her and fucked her. She did not come to me. She came. This lasted about two minutes and then I went back to the other chick. I ran into the same problem of going limp. About 45 minutes I stood up ready to walk out and the other guy threw his hand up and said “Come on man, it’s only been 45 minutes…relax.” I tried to do just that. Later I found myself sitting on the edge of the bed; the other chick was on the other side of my wife who was with the other man. I guess I blacked out because what woke me was him pushing my wife to me and him telling his wife to help her out. They both started to suck me off and the guy started to fuck my wife again while she was doing this about a minute later. I got hard. The other chick put a condom on me and I tried yet again but went limp immediately. I was done. We all left the room.

We went outside and I was devastated. I wanted to go back in there and everything go right. I told them I wanted to try again. I felt bad for the other chick and thought my wife would help out the second time around. While were sitting there my wife looked at him then at me, called me to her with her finger and sucked me till I got hard. I didn’t want them to know I was having a jealousy issue so I turned to the other female and said “Ok, he’s ready for you.” Before I knew it, my wife and the other man were past me and heading for the bed room and the other chick took me by the hand and led me in too. All three were in the bed while I was standing. He looked at me and told me to just lay down and relax. He knew I was bothered. At the same time he was saying that my wife was between his legs with his cock in her hand and looking at me with the biggest smile ever. I laid down. My wife looked at me until the other chick started to suck me then she began to please him. She never looked at me again. The chick sat on me and I went limp again. As she was sitting on me my wife was thrown on her back between my legs where she licked my balls for about a minute then there was no more interaction with her again. Not even eye contact. I went through another condom and tried again. Meanwhile my wife was thrown into about 5 more positions which I watched while trying to perform. She never opened her eyes to make eye contact again. I remember feeling zero arousal and finally called it quits. My Greatest Fear had come true!

That night when we were on our way home, I asked her how she felt it went. She said “Ahhh, I really didn’t enjoy it.” I then lost it. I felt lied to because I watched the whole thing and saw the pleasure on her face, saw her take him, etc. We went home and had our normal post sex. She was completely dry. I was totally pissed off! We fought and I broke down. I cried daily for about 3½ weeks. She was there by my side the whole time, unlike me when I broke her heart with our first MFF. Every day we talked and each day it got better. Bottom line is I found out I have a real problem seeing my wife alone with another man. I like sharing her with another man or woman but to see her have pleasure with another man kills me! How do I deal with this??? All I want to do is make her happy like she has done for me for so many years. We both enjoy 99% of this lifestyle. That’s the one thing I can’t handle. I now wished I would have let her go into it with the same rules from the start. She knows how to deal with seeing me with another woman and I feel I will always be left behind from this point on. Karma’s a bitch. What comes around goes around. I know I will get a lot of nasty comments from you all but I don’t care. I’m ready for them but please remember that I am the one that came up with the idea to seek help for us because I just want to make her happy, make up for all my mistakes, and make it work for us. We are realists and know that we will someday do this again. If you write nasty things about me, please don’t forget to give us some positive feedback because WE want to make this work for us.

Yes, I was pissed off because of three things:

1. She broke her rule of not doing her dream of a foursome (our golden rule) that night. Instead she did a full-swap. She says she misinterpreted my facial expression right from the start. She thought I just wanted to fuck the other chick which was never approved of by her in the past. It was always a desire to do a foursome for her. I can forgive her for this because I know from experience that desire is what made her make that decision that night and I know desire is a very strong thing.

2. She said that by me pulling her hair I was egging her on and it solidified that I wanted to do a full-swap in her mind. She even remembers thinking “What else does he want me to do?” I always pulled her hair and kissed her in the past foursomes.

3. She also never made eye contact with me during the act except that one time. This really made me mad because, from start to finish I went through 6 condoms and was limp almost the entire time, and she never noticed. She says she looked at me 5-7 times during the whole thing but never saw me walking across the room to get condom after condom. She admits we never made eye contact. She also admits to closing her eyes so she could enjoy it.

4. She says she doesn’t remember either time the guy told me to relax. He wasn’t whispering either. The first time I was standing up beside the bed getting ready to leave with a limp one and she was moaning with her eyes closed. What really upset me was the second time she was looking right at me with a smile on her face. The guy noticed I was having issues. Why didn’t my wife.

5. Most of all I was really upset because she forgot about me that night. She never made in effort to come to me. I had to watch my Greatest fear evolve right before my eyes!

If there’s one thing my wife got out of this is the fact that I’ve always loved her! She knew that but always thought I just loved her for cooking, cleaning, etc. After 3½ weeks of me breaking down, crying daily, and not sleeping due to dreams she finally knows and understands that it truly was my greatest fear all along. She thought I just wanted to fuck other woman and thought I would be alright with it.

In the end, I know from experience I am to blame for that night because I fooled myself into believing she would never let my greatest fear happen. The reason I say this is because I know once a person gets in the moment it’s very hard to snap out of it. What may seem like 20-30 minutes may really be 1-2 hours. I should have mentally prepared myself for the worst. I also know that I shouldn’t have egg’ed it on in the first 10 minutes. I should have stopped it but I just wanted to prove to her I could see her with another man and thought I would be given some attention from her as gratitude.

I truly forgive my wife for that Fatal Friday. We both know we enjoy 99% of the lifestyle and will someday get back into it. We do however want to be better prepared. The most important issue to resolve is my problem of seeing my wife alone with other men. It’s not the men doing it to her but the fact that she’s enjoying singularly from another man besides myself. I know that desire is very strong and I need to mentally prepare myself to be forgotten about. She says that she will never let that happen again. I believed it the first time and believe she will try her best not to repeat it again. At the same time I’ve tried to avoid doing the same to her for so many years and never really got to enjoy the whole experience ever since the first MFF. I don’t want her to have to always worry about me and have the same problem.

How do I deal with this problem of mine????????????????????????????????

Please help US, not me!

Note: She took part in preparing this problem. She has proof read it from beginning to end. We don’t want to be criticized unless it’s constructive criticism. We’ve already criticized each other enough. We just want to learn from it from others, forget about it, and move forward with a completely fresh start for both of us.

Thanks again in advance.

Coupleerotic22 · June 9, 2010

I have to admit I stopped reading before I got half way through it. It is way too long. Perhaps you can sum it up a bit better if you want real answers. Sorry if that offends you.

I will make a few points.

1. I am not sure how you define things, foursome vs full swap vs soft, it seems they are all very similarly defined by you. TO us full swap with a couple is having sex with each others partner. Foursome just means 2 couples regardless if it is soft or full, but we assume fit means full swap unless noted. Soft is no vaginal/anal penetration, oral is part of it. BUT IF YOUR GREATEST FEAR IS SEEING HER WITH ANOTHER MAN, WHY ARE YOU SWINGING AT ALL?

2. It does not appear that either of you REALLY enjoy this. SO why do it. Correct me if I am wrong.

3. When we started out we had many rules - we dumped most of the extremely quickly because they were silly. Re-examine your rules, why you have them and if they are really needed. Not kissing, not looking into someones eyes, and on and on.

4. Sounds like you are afraid you wife will fall in love with another guy, a good sign you should really re-think being in the lifestyle. IF you marriage is that shaky, the lifestyle is not place to be.

5. Way too much jealousy and anger going on here. You need to fix that before you keep going in the lifestyle. But it sounds like it goes deeper than the lifestyle. If you marriage is bliss beyond the lifestyle, that is BIG sign being in the lifestyle is damaging your marriage.

6. It sounds like you both are into RULES not swinging. More like paint by numbers than sex. Sex is spontaneous and fun, its about bringing joy to others and yourself, I don't see any joy or fun in your post.

If you love each other, communicate, are secure in your relationship, want each other to have at least as much fun as you have, enjoy sex and find people you like, then I could see the lifestyle MIGHT work for you. Maybe its is just the length or lack of paragraphs or tons of details that are not needed, but I am missing seeing most of those things in your post.

VegasLee · June 9, 2010

This Lifestyle is NOT for 99.9% of the people in this world.

After reading you two post about rules, broken rules, more rules, fighting, arguing, being mad, sharing, not sharing I believe you fall into the group that really should keep it between the two of you and not involve others.

I saw nothing in your post that would want to make others want to be part of your problems.

I won't live long enough to go point by point with your post so I will just leave it at that.

Good luck to you both.

exploringRM · June 9, 2010

I don't think you were or will ever be ready to swing. You are mostly likely only hurting your relationship and also doing a disservice to couples (or singles) you are interacting with. We've had just a few encounters with couples that have jealousy issues and those issues pale to what you are imposing (rationally or irrationally) on your swinging encounter. Those small issues made us never want to interact with those playmates again.

Swinging is about sharing, and fun and getting into the moment. And that moment is shared (or split depending on your point of view) between your wife or husband and your swing partner. When its all over you should be able to look at each other, smile and say "man whatta ride!"

SuperJast · June 9, 2010

Okay,..*Deep breath*

Let`s keep this simple.

First,..You have far too many rules.

Instead of dealing with your insecurities, and jealousy, you are creating rules to try and band-aid them. It`s a cover up.

This might work on one or 2 rules, but when you have that many rules,..ANYONE is going to screw up.

It will NEVER be fun and relaxing and you will never experience the joys and freedoms that sex can bring, if you keep trying to band-aid and force each other to look after the others insecurities.

Your insecurities are your OWN to learn to conquer. Same for the wife. She needs to deal with her own insecurities. Though, my feeling is that her rules might be more of a tit-for-tat scenario towards you.

You have turned sex into a production play.

Act 1, scene 1, she does this, you do that. Act 2, scene 4, she must move this way when this happens, and you must move that way when that happens.

Do you know what production plays are for Directors and producers ?

....STRESS.

How are you going to orgasm freely under those circumstances? This is a rinse-lather-repeat scenario you have going on. It will NEVER change, until you take a step back and drag the monsters out of the insecurity closet and deal with them.

The couples you have been with,....wow. If you could ask a few of them, (if you talk to any of them) what they thought of the rules and situations you two put those other people in,..please do so. I can imagine it would of been a awkward feeling . Highs and lows of sexy fun, mixed with high and lows of stressful panic.

Please do not think of this as a attack. It is most certainly not. We all need to take a step back and drag the monsters out of the closet.

You really, really need to do this before you swing.

Peace.

lustylearning · June 9, 2010

I couldn't finish this either, but made a valiant effort. My honest assessment is: You don't belong in the swing world. The fact that you cannot tolerate seeing your wife enjoy herself with another man makes that pretty clear. The fact that you both do things you don't want to do (people you're not attracted to) makes it clear . The fact that you're both trying to rigidly control everything with mountains of rules and continuous resentment makes it clear. So my overwhelming thought is, Why Do You Swing? As far as I can tell, there's nothing in it for either one of you except the ability to control and test one another. How is this fun for you?

A really sad thought that just occurred to me is how is that fun for anyone else dealing with you?

JDApopka · June 10, 2010

Whoa is bout all I can say!! I got down to the last bit before I quit. but Dude you have issue's with seeing your wife enjoy herself with other men. And you think swinging is good Idea? NOT!!

Sorry to be so hard but damn.

Of course I really enjoy watching my wife kiss, fondle, suck and fuck other men makes me get wood. I also know that she loves me and we are just having fun.

Newpants · June 10, 2010

As one of the most long-winded posters on this board I really really tried to read it all and couldn't. It was just too painfull, dysfunctional and pyschotic.

This is so messed up, I'm not even sure it is real. What makes me question the authenticity of this is that all these other people KEPT COMING BACK.

We've met couples that were not 1/1000th this dysfunctional and we ran screaming for the hills ten minutes after the first hello.

If this is real, my only advice is get into some maritial counseling and stay as far away from swinging as possible. You have way too many issues and too many problems to make swinging even worthwhile. Why put yourselves through this kind of torment?

DMPJ · June 10, 2010

Wow - very long.

But from what I read, I agree with everyone else. Maybe you shouldn't be swinging when every story ends with someone crying...

Most people touch a hot stop and learn to never touch it again. You did the exact opposite, burning yourself but expecting the stove to feel differently the next time.

And yes, TOO many rules - or more specifically, too many senseless rules. "We agreed on no rules except that if one guy cums the appropriate wife had to finish the other man off." Why? I think you have some ballet of fornication in your mind that's very far from the reality of most group sexual encounters.

You need to re-evaluate the lifestyle and really question if it's the right choice for you and your wife. Good luck!

lizandtom · June 10, 2010

anc said:

How do I deal with this problem of mine????????????????????????????????

Please help US, not me!

We don’t want to be criticized unless it’s constructive criticism. We just want to learn from it from others, forget about it, and move forward with a completely fresh start for both of us.

Thanks again in advance.

How to deal with this is to give up your idea's and endeavors of swinging. Like Lee said you fall into the 99+% that aren't cut out for it. Kudos for trying but you guys will divorce over this if you persist; there's no other outcome, really. Here's the constructive part of my criticism, a smiley face . The votes have been counted, please turn in your torch; the tribe has spoken.

sweet_tna · June 10, 2010

Honestly? If you cannot stand the thought of her with another man, there is NO point to ya'll swinging. If she cannot handle you paying another woman attention, then there is no point to ya'll swinging. I don't think either of ya'll needs to be having sex with anyone but each other.

And you know what? That's okay. You tried it, it wasn't for you. I tried playing racquetball once, and it just wasn't for me. I found other ways to occupy my time, things that do make me happy and don't result in injuries to myself or others nearby.

Best of luck to ya'll . . .

PB&J · June 10, 2010

I really don't think that you and your wife have the right attitude towards the others in your sex life to make this a success.

Example:

I must point out that you all think her girlfriend was hot but she was not. She was not my taste. Some might say ugly. She had an ugly personality and was over my weight standards. To me it was just about sex.

In other words, you used this woman for sex, even though she did not attract you in any way. Again and again. Nice. Maybe a greater consideration for the others you've allowed into your sex life would be in order.

Your obsession with this "greatest fear" of yours is beyond me. Or I should say that it is beyond me that you would even consider pursuing swinging if this was your greatest fear. Actually, I'm not even sure what this fear precisely is. Seems to be a fear that she would actually enjoy being with another man.

You know what's great about sex? Living in the moment. Living in the physical sensation. It's not about the past, it's not about the future. It's not about a relationship. If you can't grasp that, if you try to micromanage the experience for both you and her, and in the process for the other people in the bed with you, you don't belong in swinging.

I'm afraid that's the most constructive criticism that anyone here is going to give you. We can't wave a magic wand and turn you into happy swingers. I doubt that Gandalf could do that for you. If you truly love each other and have a great sex life, treasure and nurture that, and keep away from swinging, which is obviously only detrimental to your marriage.

anc · June 10, 2010

Thanks to all of you and your constructive criticism.

First off, we'd like to say after reading your posts that we've realized that what we fight about is rules being broken. So the question is, if we lifted all the rules will things go better for us?

Also, do you all think we both have jealousy issues?

And to shorten my original post: How do I go about seeing my wife have pleasure with another man?

I believe this: I always knew she would do this to me because I have done it to her unintentionally. But with each experience I tried to fool myself into believing she would never do that to me because she was so angry that I did it to her in the past.

Fact is, it's going to happen! I need to except this IS going to happen instead of expecting it NOT to happen.

I believe I couldn't get hard because I was expecting her to pay more attention to me.

We talked last night and realized that if we were to take away all the arguments about rules being broken, we would've had nothing to argue about. Also, if we wouldn't have had rules, we would have been more likely able to enjoy the experiences.

So if we go back into it with no rules, I'm sure it will still hurt me to see her have pleasure from another man but maybe not so much since I would finally be able to enjoy the other woman because I wouldn't be worried about breaking rules the whole time.

Do you all agree??? Suggestions please.

PS- My wife and I say thanks for all the advise so far! We've never asked for help before.

SecretAsianMan · June 10, 2010

I don't think it's "just about breaking the rules" that's causing the problems

Sure... y'all are putting these rules in place with the thought that as long as everyone follows them - nobody will feel jealous or emotionally hurt by the experience.

But the truth of the matter is... neither one of y'all seems to be happy to see the other with another partner. ...thus, you'll constantly be overwhelmingly jealous of the pleasure your partner is experiencing with the other person to the point where SOMETHING is going to bother y'all enough to fight about.

That is NOT about open-ness & honesty between y'all. That is NOT sharing in each other's pleasure and being thrilled to see them enjoying sex without fearing that they'll betray your trust/relationship. That is... quite frankly... NOT swinging.

Just stop. If y'all decide to stay together y'all need to achieve far more honesty with each other. You've learned that this is not the lifestyle choice for y'all ... ya tried it and it wasn't for you. Simple as that. Move on & enjoy the rest of your relationship together (and only together).

bbarnsworth · June 10, 2010

I basically forgot about my wife the rest of the session.

Not good. Most especially for a first time experience, not very good at all. The fact that this devolved into arguing, yet it was repeated again and again and again, is shocking. How many wake-up calls do you need?

I decided to give my wife the foursome she always wanted because I felt I owed her for all my mistakes.

So, a bunch of mistakes and the cure is to try it again, this time adding another man into the mix? Epic fail

I must point out that you all think her girlfriend was hot but she was not. She was not my taste. Some might say ugly. She had an ugly personality and was over my weight standards. To me it was just about sex. ... Neither my wife nor I were attracted to them in the least bit.

So you were playing with someone neither of you weren't even attracted to? Fail.

Again, over each time the past was thrown in my face before and after each experience.

You played with this woman (and later her husband) dozens of times yet after each time you had arguments between you???? Come on. This is 1+1 math.

(When I did so I broke a rule ...that in all foursomes all people had to stay on the same bed.)

Bizarre rule.

on the 4th day I had flashes of seeing my wife alone with another man and broke down at work; literally in tears. This went on for about 2 weeks. (and later...) I cried daily for about 3½ weeks.

How many bad internal signals do you need?

After that couple we went back to her girlfriend and her husband two more times.

What possible reason could ANYone have for going back to this couple????? This is absurd.

That turned me on but also off because I knew my wife was actually enjoying it this time. ... Her pleasured face and sounds destroyed me.

Yet another blaring alarm signal. You want to swing, but don't want your wife to enjoy it??? WTF? Unreal. One of the biggest turn-ons I get out of swinging is hearing the sounds my wife makes as she's having sex with another man, especially that delicious moan she makes when another man first enters her! If it were a turn OFF, we would NOT be in swinging, period, no ands-ifs-or-butts.

to see her have pleasure with another man kills me! How do I deal with this???

You don't. There's so many red flags over this all the flag stores in the world are out of red flags at the moment. Why on Earth you ever thought it would be a good idea to continue in swinging is beyond understanding. Catastrophic, epic fail beyond imagination.

We both enjoy 99% of this lifestyle.

Coulda fooled me. Every interaction you report has been bad.

I know I will get a lot of nasty comments from you all but I don’t care. I’m ready for them

With fire proof clothing I hope. I'm sorry I'm being harsh in this post, but I'm actually very restrained from what I would like to say.

We are realists and know that we will someday do this again. If you write nasty things about me, please don’t forget to give us some positive feedback because WE want to make this work for us.

#1 Forget about swinging. Give up on it. It's not for you.

#2 Get back to your relationship. Find other things that make both of you happy together. Hobbies, travel, entertainment, what have you. Focus on those. You're not getting positive things from swinging, it's just destroying both of you.

#3 Your communication is very poor. I certainly hope that your level of communication outside of swinging is at least 10 times better; if so, it's a bare minimum for a relationship.

3. She also never made eye contact with me during the act except that one time. This really made me mad because, from start to finish I went through 6 condoms and was limp almost the entire time, and she never noticed. She says she looked at me 5-7 times during the whole thing but never saw me walking across the room to get condom after condom. She admits we never made eye contact. She also admits to closing her eyes so she could enjoy it.

And there is NOTHING wrong with her wanting to focus on it and enjoy it. My wife gets very involved in play activities. Sometimes I have her attention, sometimes I don't. I doesn't bother me in the slightest if she's in the throes of ecstasy because of what another man is doing to her and she isn't focusing on me. I want her to enjoy it. You don't want your wife to enjoy it. How you could possibly swing when you don't want your wife to enjoy it is just inconceivable.

The guy noticed I was having issues. Why didn’t my wife.

Because your communication is terrible. My wife and I have a very simple rule. There is always a parachute out of any situation. If either of us wants something to stop, we verbally tell our spouse, and we walk away. You're trying to use facial expressions, hints, motions, body language to communicate "No".

If I was that guy who noticed you having problems, I would have pulled the plug, no question.

I just wanted to prove to her I could see her with another man and thought I would be given some attention from her as gratitude.

Completely the wrong approach. "See how much pain I can endure for you? I can watch another man fuck you while you enjoy it, and then cry for 3.5 weeks and still want to be with you! I'm SUPERman!"

We both know we enjoy 99% of the lifestyle and will someday get back into it.

Frankly, you'd be making a huge mistake if you did.

It’s not the men doing it to her but the fact that she’s enjoying singularly from another man besides myself.

Again, "It's ok to have sex with other men honey, but don't even THINK about enjoying because I'll get very upset!!!!" Unreal.

How do I deal with this problem of mine????????????????????????????????

Quit swinging.

Please help US, not me!
Note: She took part in preparing this problem. She has proof read it from beginning to end. We don’t want to be criticized unless it’s constructive criticism. We’ve already criticized each other enough. We just want to learn from it from others, forget about it, and move forward with a completely fresh start for both of us. Thanks again in advance.

If you insist on swinging, you need to approach it completely differently.

Some couples have some minor jealousy concerns and are successful, happy swingers. You have major jealousy and possessive concerns that can not be reconciled with swinging. This doesn't mean you are a bad person. Not everybody can be a happy swinger (in fact the vast majority can't).

Your rule set needs to be absolutely minimized, to cover very basic understandable rules. The "must be in the same bed" stuff is absurd, frankly. My wife and I had a bunch of rules at the beginning, and some of them were absurd.They're all gone now, but for a few; the parachute rule noted above, condoms always, and same room (though if one of us has to use the facilities, the other shouldn't stop playing). Let yourselves go. Stop getting so worked up about the rules, what's being broken or not, trying to figure it all out while play is going on, etc.

Figure out how to enjoy your spouse enjoying him/her self. If you can't at least get to the point where your spouse enjoying themselves isn't a negative, you're insane to continue swinging.

If you are set on doing a soft-swap with a couple, don't change your decision in the middle of play. There's always future times to play. Changing midstream is a recipe for disaster.

Go ridiculously slow. You have an awful lot of bad water under the bridge that you need to put in your past. Walk TOGETHER in this, FOR each other, WITH each other, BECAUSE of each other. Swinging should never be a tit-for-tat situation. If "she did this, so I should get that" enters into your equation, you're making a mistake. As my wife and I have discussed, there isn't "fair" for each other in swinging per se; what is "fair" is what each of us agrees is fun and we want to do. The only 'score' that should be kept is "Are you enjoying yourselves and is swinging not causing any harm to your relationship in any respect?"

Spend a LOT more time on this forum to learn and understand what swinging is about, what it should be, what red flags there are.

Spent hours upon hours upon days upon weeks talking with each other about swinging. Be 100% honest, open, with no risk to either of you for bringing anything up. Don't throw verbal knives at each other. The past is the past. LEARN from it, and stop beating each other up about it. Your past experiences are a learning tool, not an abuse tool.

bbarnsworth · June 10, 2010

So the question is, if we lifted all the rules will things go better for us?

It would help, but it's not the fundamental issue.

Also, do you all think we both have jealousy issues?

And control/possessive issues, yes.

How do I go about seeing my wife have pleasure with another man?

There isn't any method to teach you to do so. When my wife and I got into swinging, I didn't know if I would truly enjoy watching another man have sex with her. I thought I would, but I didn't know. I've since learned that I really enjoy it immensely. I don't have an explanation for it. Upbringing, society, etc. all tells me I shouldn't enjoy it, I should be angry, insulted, etc. But, I'm not. I'm deeply aroused, and feel very loved by my wife and she feels the same. I stopped trying to find an explanation for it, and just enjoy it.

You don't. If you don't have that in yourself, there's no making it up.

Fact is, it's going to happen! I need to except this IS going to happen instead of expecting it NOT to happen.

It doesn't have to happen. All you have to do is not swing.

We talked last night and realized that if we were to take away all the arguements about rules being broken, we would've had nothing to argue about. Also, if we wouldn't have had rules, we would have been more likely able to enjoy the experiences.

As noted above, this isn't the fundamental issue. The fundamental issue is neither of you has the ability to let go, to let your partner do whatever he/she wants and enjoy it, and for the other to feel a great sense of well being in the process. That doesn't make you bad. It's just who you are. It does make you incompatible with swinging.

So if we go back into it with no rules, I'm sure it will still hurt me to see her have pleasure from another man but maybe not so much since I would finally be able to enjoy the other woman because I wouldn't be worried about breaking rules the whole time.

If you attempt to get back into swinging knowing it will hurt you to see her have pleasure, you're insane. Further, trying to band-aid your displeasure by focusing on the other woman is just more insane.

Coupleerotic22 · June 10, 2010

Anc - can you answer a few simple questions as honestly as possible.

Why do you want to swing? If you both would answer for yourself, separately.

To Mr. Anc: What is it that you fear so badly from seeing her with another man?

To Mrs. Anc: What is it that he does that makes you so angry?

And please don't tell me breaking the rules, I think the rules are a crutch here. What is the underlying reason for litany of rules you have?

good times · June 10, 2010

I will try to say this as simply as possible, it isn't that you have to many rules that is the problem. Although, that is often the problem with new folks. The problem is that you have some serious issues, and the rules you made were in an effort to hide or cover up those issues. Unless, or until you can get over the issues, what rules you have won't matter in the least.

Successful swingers enjoy nothing more than seeing their partner having a great time with another partner. Neither one of you do. So, as the others have said here, forget about swinging, it isn't for you. If you continue on like this, it will do nothing but create drama for yourselves and others.

Alura · June 10, 2010

Swinging should be intended, in my opinion, to provide fun and pleasure for both partners in a marriage. That's not happening with y'all.

The first thing y'all must do is agree that you can talk about any subject and it's unfair to get angry. "I don't wanna talk about it!" is not allowed.

Secondly, you must convince each other that you'll be there always. Say "I love you" a dozen times a day. Kiss often, making it last for at least ten seconds. Try it!

and, if y'all are ever to swing successfully, learn to separate the physical act of sex from the emotional act of love. Only then will you be able to smile when your partner has an orgasm with another person.

Newpants · June 10, 2010

good times said:

it isn't that you have to many rules that is the problem. The problem is that you have some serious issues, and the rules you made were in an effort to hide or cover up those issues. Unless, or until you can get over the issues, what rules you have won't matter in the least.

I wholehearted agree with this statement above!!!!

People often make the rules to protect themselves from what they do not want to do in the first place and what they fear will happen if they and/or their partner has sex with other people.

all your rules were essentially shutting down and preventing you from actually swinging. HOWEVER the reason you instituted all those rules is because you do not want your wife to experience other men and she does not want you to experience other women.

IN OTHER WORDS NEITHER OF YOU ACTUALLY WANTS TO SWING AND WHEN YOU TRIED TO DO IT NEITHER ONE OF YOU ENJOYED IT AND IT CAUSED YOU DISTRESS AND PAIN.

WTF????????

What is wrong with you two???? Yes you two have serious issues!!! Not only do I think you are the last people that should be swinging, I am also starting to think you are completely mental.

I still am not convinced of the authenticity of your accounts of your swinging attempts because I do not think that there are other people out there that would go along with this but on the off chance that you are telling the truth I will offer these as your options -

if you want to stay married and have a somewhat happy and healthy marriage, forget all about this swinging business and get into some serious marriage counseling.

If you don't care if you stay married or do not care about the health and happiness of you marriage then both of you can just cheat and do whatever you want without trying to get your spouse involved in it with you.

I do not see that happy, healthy swinging is an option for either of you and I am having trouble understanding why you are not seeing that.

VegasLee · June 10, 2010

anc said:

Do you all agree??? Suggestions please.

NO, don't agree at all.

Reread your first post many times, word by word.

You two have many more issues then just making rules. One symptom is the making of all those rules.

Yes, see jealousy in your relationship.

Lots of things for you two to over come before even thinking of having sex with others.

Think about it. What is more important to you, having some strange or building the perfect relationship for life with your wife?

Once you can honestly answer that question without being offended that I even asked it then you will be on the road to working on the relationship and maybe a long time from now, checking out this Lifestyle.

Ed & Bunny · June 11, 2010

good times said:

Successful swingers enjoy nothing more than seeing their partner having a great time with another partner.

This is a major key to it all. If you two cant get off on even the thought, let alone the act of them being with another person, then you need to reconsider ever swinging again.

JustAskJulie · June 11, 2010

Short and Simple. Stop Swinging, it's not for you.

anc · June 11, 2010

bbarnsworth said:

Not good. Most especially for a first time experience, not very good at all. The fact that this devolved into arguing, yet it was repeated again and again and again, is shocking. How many wake-up calls do you need?

First off,

Thanks for putting some humor in such a stressful experience. I appreciate that. I was wearing fire-proof clothing when I read it.

You touched on a lot of good points we need to think about. Me, more so than her. The advise at the end about how we should go into it if we later decide to was most valuable. If you have any more, we'd greatly appreciate it!!!

I think you're right: Her changing the rules from the start of the experience was the major problem. Everything from there on went downhill.

Major Questions:

1. Do you and your wife make eye contact in each experience?

2. Do each of you egg on each other throughout them?

Thanks again.

PB&J · June 11, 2010

anc said:

I think you're right: Her changing the rules from the start of the experience was the major problem. Everything from there on went downhill.

I don't know what you've been reading, but it's certainly not this thread. NO ONE has said that that is the main problem. The problem is that neither of you enjoy the experience of experiencing your partner experiencing sex with someone else.

In other words, you SHOULD NOT SWING.

exploringRM · June 11, 2010

Major Questions:

1. Do you and your wife make eye contact in each experience?

2. Do each of you egg on each other throughout them?

Yes and sometimes. It's fun to watch my wife have a good time. We're usually paying the majority of our attention to our swing partners, but if we are in a situation that allows for eye contact and talk we fine with it.

Jealousy is a subject that gets me on a soapbox but I won't go there. We been on the receiving end of jealousy between our playmates and even jealousy from swing partners of OUR swing partners. I feel that anyone who has an issue with it and can't deal should not be swinging. To much of a drama bomb potential. We talked before we started that we are not looking for replacements. If we feel we are getting too close to a playmate emotionally then it stops, at least with that playmate. And everyone differs with their level of connection with their playmates. Us, we like to have a connection that is more than sex, a sensual connection.

Swinging is fun and flirty; it's about each of us having a chance to live some fantasies either together or in separate situations (and I realize couples differ in the separate/together decision).

shy_couple · June 12, 2010

I tried but couldn't make it through the original posting. So read the shortened version.

If you two keep doing what you are doing, it is going to kill your relationship.It sounds like she is going along just to please him and when the reality sets in it is too much. He gets wrapped up in himself and rules, feelings, sensitivity, love and respect go out the window to fulfill his fantasy.

From early fantasy to first conversation. From research to our first party. Whatever type of relationship you have, it will intensify it. If you have a respectful, trusting, and loving relationship it will make it better and intensify these aspects and feelings that you have for each other. On the flip side, if you are self involved, jealous, or insecure, these traits will be amplified and accelerate the ruin of your relationship.

From our own experience, this holds very true. You two appear to be heading down the road to ruin. I'm sure the advice that you got was not what you wanted to hear.

You probably wanted some advice on how you could have your cake and eat it too. Keep fulfilling sexual fantasies but make her ok with it. From totally unbiased third party observers here on the board, stop working on swinging and start working on yourselves and your relationship. Best wishes to you both no matter what the future holds.

anc · June 12, 2010

I tried but couldn't make it through the original posting. So read the shortend version.

This is the wife:

I could honestly say, after being married for over 16 years being together for 17, I'm truly and madly in love with my husband. I still have butterflies when we kiss. My husband never pushed me into anything. I'm a very strong minded woman and would never have done anything I wasn't ok with.

My husband, some would say is a very jealous person. I on the other hand believe I have a normal type of jealousy. I must say to all on this site that we really do appreciate all the feedback. The majority of the people have not read the entire original posting due to it's length. This is understandable.

The point we're trying to get across is; yes a rule is there to be broken. That's why the majority of people don't have rules. I learned that many years ago. The reason I can say I learned is because every rule that's ever been made was made by my husband and he was the one who broke them. Nevertheless, I love my husband from the bottom of my heart and more now than I have ever loved him.

The issue we have is the one time all rules were lifted I was reserved becaused I didn't think he was ready to see me have pleasure from another man without his involvement. It went great! Better than all the other times. I was able to enjoy it due to not having rules even though I was reserved.

The next time without rules, which we call the "Fatal Friday", I went into it assuming he wanted to do a Full-Swap. Beforehand it was always a foursome that we wanted; meaning involvement of all 4 people as much as possible. I miss read my husband and as we went into the bedroom I assumed he wanted a Full-swap. So I did it. Enjoyed the moment. By doing so, I had my eyes closed the majority of the night and therefore did not pay attention to my husband. I understand I was wrong and was so sorry to see the hurt and tears in my husband after the fact. I'm esspecially sorry since I know what it felt like going three to four hours without my husband touching, feeling, carassing, or even acknowledging me.

First off, I can truly and honestly say I have pleasure seeing my husband have pleasure with another woman, but still, let's be realistic since everyone on here is supposedly being truthful, you can't tell me that there's not one person from all these responses that don't have a little jealousy or had it at some point! Sounds like all of you just woke up and were born to be swingers with no issues what so ever.

All my husband asked is how does a man that's maybe had jealousy issues; how did they overcome it?

Trust us, we're not jumping back into the lifestyle right away. We are just trying to work out our issues. Maybe we won't ever.

PB&J · June 12, 2010

First off, I can truly and honestly say I have pleasure seeing my husband have pleasure with another woman, but still, let's be realistic since everyone on here is supposedly being truthful, you can't tell me that there's not one person from all these responses that don't have a little jealousy or had it at some point! Sounds like all of you just woke up and were born to be swingers with no issues what so ever.

Speaking for me and my husband, I can honestly say we have not been jealous of each other's involvement with others in the lifestyle. At all. And yes, that is what makes swinging work for us. If we had jealousy issues, we wouldn't be swinging.

anc · June 12, 2010

shy_couple said:

I tried but couldn't make it through the original posting. So read the shortened version.

By doing so, I had my eyes closed the majority of the night and therefore did not pay attention to my husband. I understand I was wrong and was so sorry to see the hurt and tears in my husband after the fact. I'm especially sorry since I know what it felt like going three to four hours without my husband touching, feeling, caressing, or even acknowledging me.

The reason I say I don't believe no one ever had any issues is because when he did the above to me I had an extremely hard time as well. I did not enjoy seeing him alone with another woman either. As time went on I started to dream of that act and for some reason it started to turn me on more and more. Eventually it came to a point where, I get a little jealous, but for the most part I really truly enjoy seeing him with another woman now!

PB&J · June 12, 2010

I guess what doesn't make sense is why you kept on trying, the both of you, if you both started out having so much trouble dealing with your spouse having sex with another person. What was the motivation to continue, if it wasn't fun?

lustylearning · June 12, 2010

You are probably correct. Most swingers have had to get over jealousy of some sort. What I don't know that you're picking up on is that the jealousy and control issues presented here are so deep that we cannot comprehend you choosing to continue with such a risky course (in the past - I understand you're not jumping back in). If the purpose of swinging is to enjoy sex with other people, and the thought of your spouse enjoying the act makes one of you ill, there's something wrong with continuing to try to swing.

Please do not discount the feedback you've gotten. It has been well meant. No one here is holier than thou and no one is judging you. We simply do not understand. Why do you have to swing? How will it serve your marriage? Fantasies can be just that.

Regarding jealousy... To me, jealousy is the pinging of your fear of loss: loss of primacy, loss of status, loss of power/control/significance/security... If you want to address the jealousy, I'd suggest you to determine what it is you fear losing, then figure out how to address that fear.

lustylearning · June 12, 2010

And no, I don't give hubby a ton of eye contact, unless I have the sense he is trying to communicate with me. Sometimes we just smile at one another, by chance, like "isn't this cool?" I tend to focus on my partner. In fact, I have difficulty with partners who have to do a lot of focusing on their wives (less fun for me:lol:).

Egging on? Do you mean encouraging? I usually only do that on the occasion that things have wound down for me and I sense that an extra mouth and pair of hands would add to his experience (or his partner's:)).

slevin · June 12, 2010

And no, I don't give hubby a ton of eye contact, unless I have the sense he is trying to communicate with me. Sometimes we just smile at one another, by chance, like "isn't this cool?" I tend to focus on my partner. In fact, I have difficulty with partners who have to do a lot of focusing on their wives (less fun for me:lol:).

Egging on? Do you mean encouraging? I usually only do that on the occasion that things have wound down for me and I sense that an extra mouth and pair of hands would add to his experience (or his partner's:)).

Agreed. We usually catch each others eye for a second or two just to connect in the midst of the action. We don't maintain eye contact and if I look over to give her a little eye contact moment and she doesn't notice, it doesn't matter. If something is happening that bothers me, I just bring it up verbally. Nothing has ever bothered us to the same degree that you've described.

Dont usually egg each other on, although sometimes we'll all be talking. I guess that could be considered egging on. It's just enjoying the whole thing as a group though really.

socolais · June 12, 2010

I think it's great that both of yall are active on this forum - that's a very good sign. I encourage both of yall to search the archives and read as many threads as you find interesting. There's lots of good information here even if yall decide swinging is not for you.

'Jealousy' may mean different things to different folks. I was concerned about the possibility of hurt feelings when we first started swinging. I discovered that the opposite of jealousy is 'compersion'. Compersion is the feeling of joy when others (spouse in this case) feels joy or pleasure. I think compersion is a positive attribute and jealousy is a negative attribute. Society programs us to accept jealousy as normal and reasonable. When we look for opportunities to experience compersion, jealousy looses its relivance.

Swing*8701 · June 12, 2010

Susan here-- You two insist on the right to being jealous and the right to your rules. That deep down you're just like all the other Swingers. Guess what ? You're not. You want to build a Ferrari and you built a boat anchor instead. It seems like you're just waiting for the other to make a mistake. You're into controlling the other person by complaining about their mistakes. Really, this is not for you and it's even worse for the people you play with, having to deal with your drama.

Ever consider just getting laid and having a blast ? Sheesh.

shy_couple · June 12, 2010

I will admit to anc that we have had some issues. Our rules are simple: we dont full swap and dont take one for the team. She did take one for the team once. I was very hot for the girl and she was at best luke warm for him. We went ahead and played even though we ignored our little voices. Turns out, the girl was hot but I didnt have much fun because I was concerned with Mrs Shy feelings. We didnt fight or cry but we discussed it and said we would chalk it up to a learning experience and never ignore our little voices again.

Mrs Shy comes from a conservitive mid-western upbringing. She is a little shy about her sexuality and still insecure with herself and her body image sometimes. I love to see her getting and giving pleasure and hate to see her uncomfortable in any way. We dont maintain eye contact during our encounters but do frequently check-in give a little nod or wink to be sure things are going fine.

Still stand by our first posting: you are doing more harm than good ro your relationship.

We saw someone else post that you were trying to build a Ferrari but got a boat anchor, funny but true.

N8ture Girl · June 13, 2010

Quote

First off, I can truly and honestly say I have pleasure seeing my husband have pleasure with another woman, but still, let's be realistic since everyone on here is supposedly being truthful, you can't tell me that there's not one person from all these responses that don't have a little jealousy or had it at some point! Sounds like all of you just woke up and were born to be swingers with no issues what so ever.

I, as the female half can honestly say I have never had any pangs of jealousy. I love my hubby, and he loves me and I know at the end of the night that he will be coming home with me! There was one lady that said on more than one occasion that she loved my hubby. Even then there was no jealousy. I thought it was kinda sweet, I wasn't worried because our relationship is that strong!

I went into swinging with an open mind, went with the flow and have enjoyed watching him please other women. We dont pay a lot of attention to each other when we are with other play mates because we are focused on pleasing the one we are with. We do share a glance and a smile, a wink and sometimes a quick kiss if we are close enough.

I once had a playmate that could not stay focused on me because he kept watching his wife. If a he wanted to watch then that is fine, but if your having sex with me then pay attention to me, you cant really do both. There was a lot of jealousy issues with that couple, we dont need it and dont want it.

You two need to take the advice that as already been given. Stop swinging. Get a grip on your relationship and your issues and try to work them out. Even after that I am not sure you would be ready to swing.

Good luck!

lovinher · June 13, 2010

IMO. too many rules means your not ready for swinging. In your case I don't think you will ever be. There is nothing wrong with that. Just keep it as a fantasy, at least for now before you hit the point of no return and seriously damage your marriage.

Sometimes fantasies are just best kept as fantasies.

If you insist on exploring this you need to read this board extensively and for a long period of time. You'd be amazed at what you will learn and how to overcome your insecurities. But to be able to overcome your problems you have to understand each other better. This site may help with that but will not change the underlying problem. Love for each other is not a good enough reason to swing. I think that is a mistake many people make. There has to be complete trust and the desire to have and even see your partner enjoy the experience. I don't think you have enough trust in each other or enough desire to see your spouse enjoy the moment without worrying about what the other is doing. That is a serious problem and not fair to the couple you try to play with.

Read the forums. Ask questions, join the discussions and someday you may be able to make the jump to try again. But right now-no way.

DigginIt · June 15, 2010

Hey guys, so I read the entire post ... twice. I am glutton for punishment, I guess . I'm not going to go into a lot of the details because I think a degree in psychology is required here to analyze this fully but there were a few things that I noted pretty clearly.

You started off by saying that you two are very much in love and even followed it up with another post talking about "still getting the butterflies" etc. but the drama in this post is just mind numbing. It really is.

Communication is everything in this lifestyle. Did you two ever once sit down and talk about why you wanted to do this other than it was a fantasy of yours? What did the two of you EACH expect to get out of it? What did you think it would bring into the relationship?

I could go on forever here asking "why" questions but I truly believe neither of you know why. This is the most dysfunctional post I have ever read.

You said that you two never argued except about this one thing in your life. Maybe you keep doing it because you enjoy arguing. I would suggest maybe politics or religion as I think those would be less destructive than swinging and it wouldn't involve others. I'm trying to be light hearted but I'm really serious.

Maybe what you are missing in your relationship is emotion and this seems to be stirring up quite a bit.

The two of you need to sit down and have a long talk because there are issues in your relationship that is obvious to everyone else here reading this thread that isn't obvious to you. Maybe that you posted this, you both have an idea that something is wrong but deep down I think the two of you have lots to talk about.

Swinging should be a positive event and I haven't heard anything positive anywhere throughout this post.

Are you two REALLY being honest with each other? Obviously you BOTH are getting a lot more out of it than you want to admit. If you can't be honest to each other then maybe that is where you should start looking into whats going on in your relationship.

Our thoughts.

Coupleerotic22 · June 15, 2010

Well said DigginIt.

Anc, you guys need to be asking yourselves and each other a lot of questions rather than asking this board. I think the consensus is a great deal of confusion and doubt as to why you are swinging at all, in fact why you even want to swing.

This board is a place where you might think everyone would recommend swinging to everyone who comes here. But the truth is, swinging is not for everyone and the people here understand that, so the situation is what people look at before giving advice.

In your situation it sounds like you guys need to deal with your relationship issues (happiness, jealousy, love, communication, trust, understanding etc) that have nothing to do with swinging. That is not something that happens overnight or very easily. Swinging is something you do when you are solid in ALL those areas, it is certainly not something you do to make them better. If you can get them all worked out MAYBE, and that is a huge maybe, you could be happy swinging. But as it stands, this looks like an express ticket to disaster in your relationship.

One last thing, love is not a tit-for-tat, or measured on a balance sheet to keep track of who did what and who owes what. It's about caring, understanding, sharing and wanting the other person to be happy. If you are always expecting every little move to be reciprocated then you are in for pain. It is about the sum total of your relationship, some times one gives more than the other, but if you love each other things always seem to come back to being balanced, if you have to keep score, your not there. If you are not there, then you don't need to be in the lifestyle.

NCfuncouple98 · June 16, 2010

Ok, I seriously did try to read the whole story. I did. But it was just too much.

How many years ago did this start? And with all the issues, why are you still going forward with the idea?

Sorry, but it sounds like a heck of a story for a magazine somewhere.....

Jealousy issues are very normal, and very common, in the beginning. But in all honesty, for all the "years" you both have tried this, I would think you would be giving the advice on how to overcome jealousy!

I don't mean to sound harsh, but after almost 2 years, we have dealt with all of these issues. The way you write, you have been at this many years longer, and are asking our advice? I guess I don't understand why you continue to try swinging if it has not worked for you at all so far.....

snapps · June 16, 2010

Wayy too long man, but the main problem i see here is jealousy. You were way too controlling early on. And as you said what goes around comes around... Good luck though...

padoc · June 16, 2010

When someone looks up the word "drama" in the swinging dictionary, your photo must be there. Swinging is not for every couple and it is clearly not for you two. You bring too many rules and no apparent joy to your encounters and that can't be fun for you or your playmates. I suggest you take up bowling or some other form of recreation cause recreational sex is definitely not your forte.

intuition897 · June 17, 2010

OMFG. I just spent half a fucking hour typing up a reply to this and it was a good one. I forgot to Ctrl-A/Ctrl-C it and now it's gone. SHIT!!

anc · June 25, 2010

DigginIt said:

It takes a lot to stop play. I have seen two couples quit the lifestyle because one or the other couldn't tell the other they were uncomfortable. Its tragic.

If you wanted my advice, you probably don't but going to give it anyways, lol. I would say that you suffered a panic attack brought on by some simple jealousy. Absolutely nothing wrong with that. It is your wife and you can't help but feel the way you feel.

It wasn't jealousy in the normal sense but jealousy of what "might" have been happening. While you were with the other wife, you were not able to "supervise" (just a way to describe it) the action and you became upset over what might have been going on, what your wife might have been allowing to happen or what you thought the other man might have been doing or wanting.

When your in the mix (threesome or group), it's you, your wife and another man then you have a measure of control over the situation and in what you described above, you didn't.

I could be way off base but I think what you experienced is normal and time and communication will continue to improve your experiences. Keep working on them and best of luck.

DigginIt,

You replied to our post before with good points that we both liked. We've since been browsing around and trying to learn from others experiences. We have decided to take a break for now although we both know each of us desires to do the lifestyle again in the future. We would appreciate any advice you have to offer! Your above quote explains my (husband) problem to the tee. The only difference is "Oilsnake" stopped the play and I didn't. I endured the whole thing. I was ready to walk out on two occasions and the other husband told me to relax, which I did like a dumb ass because I was trying to prove to myself and my wife I could do it when, in fact I wasn't ready. My wife has not spoken up when she was not comfortable in the past as well. We have learned that we both hold each other so high on pedestals that we only hurt ourselves in the process of trying to please each other. Lesson learned!!!

DigginIt said:

When you have a MFM encounter and you can sit back without any intervention, enjoy the fact that your wife can freely enjoy a sexual encounter with another person and you feel happy for her then you will probably be ready.

I have always desired to do a MFM and have come to realize it's because I've never been ready to lose control of the situation, or better yet my wife. I do however have high hopes of one day being able to do that for her. Problem is my wife DOESN'T want a MFM at all! She wants a four-some where she plans to put the female as a priority, me second, and the other guy last. I don't think that will work though.

She's even willing to do a FMF but we all know how hard that is to find. I don't really want to do a FMF because I know I would feel greedy since I can't do the opposite for her (like I owe her something). Any suggestions???

DigginIt · June 28, 2010

anc said:

DigginIt,
We would appreciate any advice you have to offer!

Wow, I feel honored that you asked. This is where I preface the conversation though with the fact that Mrs. Diggs and I are far from experts and there are many people here on this board (who have helped us) that have so much more wisdom than the two of us. We talked about this a little bit and here is what we came up with. I'm not going to give any real suggestions but just some food for thought.

Taking a break is good advice but we think you are going to find it easier said than done. That's just our opinion but something kept you two going long past the point where two reasonable people, in love, would have stopped. That's what put you two where you are right now. You like what you are doing but it's eating away at you both for different reasons but you keep going because you like what you both are getting out of it.

It still seems like you two have a lot to talk about as you are still caught up on the wrong things like MFM, FMF or another couple and it's becoming a contest. In a contest, there is a winner and a loser and you two are making this a contest and nobody likes to lose. In a relationship, you do things to please the other person because you enjoy seeing them happy; not because you expect any kind of reciprocation. I know you two know that but we all forget sometimes.

You can't control the situation when you swing. Yes, you may have a small measure of control with a threesome but still that's limited. You have to let go of that fear or you will never enjoy swinging and it will just build more resentment when things don't go the way you expect. In my mind, if my wife wants a MMMF (she doesn't, not yet, lol) but the point is I would be supportive and say, "sounds fun!" We find that we get more pleasure when we do things for each other unselfishly. That also means that she should be understanding to your desires and wishes as well but you should be doing it because it's what you want and not because you think you can control it.

Take time to distinguish the difference between jealousy and envy. Something we learned early on is that you can't compare your relationship with swinging. My wife and I have really fantastic sex because we know how to please each other but the first time she was with another man who knew what he was doing, she moaned differently, screamed, bit, scratched and had sex like we haven't had since we were first married. You have experienced this first hand and the side effects were you going limp. It is a little overwhelming and many of us (including me) take things like Cialis because there is a lot going on and it's distracting. My wife looks at me every once in awhile to "wink" and give me that "I still love you" look but then she is back to giving her partner the full experience. It's what I'm trying to give the other woman, my full attention and hopefully a fully functioning cock, lol. The benefit is that I have gotten to do things that my wife normally will not do for me. There were many points in your other post where I think you two were less than honest with each other and was a big part of the problem.

Getting back to my point, we were not jealous of each other but there was that envy of something you have not had in awhile. We talked about these things and even tried a few of the things that had made us envious and we actually laughed a few times because while it was fun with the other couple, it just wasn't as fun with us and we realized that it was only the excitement of the moment that made it fun. That was the exact reason we got into swinging in the first place to get those "wow" feelings again. Once we realized that, it was like an epiphany and our experiences have only gotten better and better ever since.

You are seeing your wife for the first time, the way you remember her from your past, not the way she is today and it's unsettling because your fearful of losing her. I heard the term in another post the other day "New Relationship Energy" and that is a perfect description. Swinging and your relationship is like apples and oranges; you can't compare them. Yep, the sex we have with others is really sexually charged way beyond ours but it is not a replacement nor can it ever be a replacement for the intimacy of our love making and the closeness we have built over almost 14 years.

No experience is ever going to be like you imagine it. Take the scripts out of your head and go with the flow. You might find yourself in a position where you can't get it up, it happens, if your first thoughts are "great, he's going to get to fuck my wife and I can't screw his" then you are not thinking about your wife's happiness and putting it before your own. If she is with a guy that can't get it up, she should be happy to watch you have sex with the other wife. That's what it takes to swing successfully, in my opinion.

As we look back over the last year and reread some of our posts, we laugh to ourselves and say "wow, we were very naive!" That's because swinging is an evolution and everyday we continue to change with each new experience and so will you if you continue in the lifestyle.

It all starts back with trust and communication.

DigginIt · June 29, 2010

One final thought, I know I have edited the post like 10 times so I'll put this thought by itself.

You need to seriously consider that swinging may not be right for you two. You are both liking something about it but it will destroy your marriage if you can't figure how to make it work for you.

My final thought:

Debriefings ... that's where we sit and talk about the experience. What we liked, didn't like and this is not a time for judgement or ridicule. This is where you solidify the experience in a positive way. Color coating is fine to a degree but don't lie. You should expect that with swinging you are going to come across partners that do some things better than you and you need to accept it with a smile, learn from it, have fun getting better at it yourselves

If you continue to live under the premise that the sex isn't going to be better at times then you are both fooling yourselves. Some men are going to be bigger, thicker, longer, have more hair, have less hair, kiss better etc. Some women are going to be prettier, thinner, bigger boobs, better at oral, like to swallow, like anal (whatever floats your boat).

Swinging is an opportunity to keep what you love and cherish with excellent benefits from others.

anc · July 1, 2010

DigginIt,

Thanks for the advice. We have started to figure a lot of the things you said out during our break from the lifestyle. You are right, we have realized that we are not completely honest with each other out of fear of hurting each others feelings.

We have never been so honest with each other since that experience. I (husband) never really got hurt before, she has numerous times. I now understand fully how she felt and I'm glad I've experienced it. The experience before the one we last wrote about I had a hard time getting hard too. It was not the same because she didn't let completely loose like the most recent one. I was on cialis that night and it did absolutely no good for me. I believe it's because I really don't know what she wants out of the lifestyle. I do know in time I will find out as she discovers what exactly it is that she wants.

I believe we are both getting closer though.

Thanks again for your help and we hope you don't mind if we ask you more questions in the future. As a matter of fact if you have anything to say about what we just wrote please feel free to say it. We welcome it!!!

Thanks,

anc

ClosetSwinger · July 9, 2010

I am confused. Why is it that you don't want your wife pleasured by another man? That is part of swinging. Do you expect her to lay there and have someone licking her or even having sex with her and pretend or act bored? I don't get that part at all. If you don't want to see another man pleasuring her then DON'T SWING...simple as that.

You have WAY too many rules....how on earth can either of you relax and enjoy things when you have rules to that extent. Half your rules are things that are NATURAL to do during sex so having to think in your head "oooo I can't do that...oops I can't do that either" would totally RUIN the whole thing for anyone. When you say "no seducing" what does that mean?

It seems to me that your wife is able to handle seeing you with another woman EVEN THOUGH you ignored her the first THREE TIMES you played with a girl. You on the other hand were totally devastated that your wife dared to enjoy another man. 99% of people would have assumed it was okay as you were kissing and pulling her hair. I would have thought you were really into it.

Honestly I am shocked after ALLL that went wrong with swinging that you continued. If you WANT TO KEEP SWINGING then you BOTH need to sit down and have a BRUTALLY honest chat about what you are doing. My suggestion is to throw your book of rules out the window. It's too much and too hard to follow all those in the heat of the moment.... I don't really see an issue here with your wife...she seems to handle it fine although she does seem to get angry when you break a rule but then again for a while the rules were rather one sided in your favor so I would probably get pissed if I was following all 800 rules on me and then you broke your ONE rule.

So in my opinion YOU (the husband) are the problem in this. You have a jealousy issue and you are right THIS IS NORMAL. We too had jealousy issues AT THE START and we both were able to work through them and get past it, now jealousy is a thing of the past for us.

I think that you need to work on your jealousy issues and if you can't get past them then you need to leave the lifestyle. It's not fair to your wife OR the couples you will play with if you keep trying to force it but continue feeling jealous and doing things to make yourself feel better in the moment. It will make the girl you are with uncomfortable as she will definitely pick up on it AND the guy will likely see it too. This makes for a really awkward experience for all involved.

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Broken Rules, Jealousy & Arguments...we want patient and honest help please.

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