Trying to decide if polyamory will work for us and another couple who are friends

[VanHlebar 187]

So this weekend the crap hit the fan if you will. I have posted much lately as life for MrsVan and I just hasn't been focused on lifestyle things at all. Many may remember a few posts about a couple that we have known for a couple of years that have turned from a standard vanilla couple to playing fun naked games with a bunch of touchy feely stuff as well.

 

Well about 18mos or so ago, I felt a shift in my emotions towards the other wife, first what I thought may have been just a strong infatuation, then just a deeper connection than typical friends. Well after many months of soul searching and on again off again discussions with MrsVan I have finally come to terms with how I feel. In addition to that it has been made aware to the other couple. She has also confessed feelings for me but I am not sure to what depth.

 

We are now at the early stages of attempting to figure this all out. MrsVan feels like she is now sharing my love and her best friend, as that is who I have fallen for. While everyone knows deep down that neither of us are going to run off, this is still a lot for us all to deal with. I am struggling to put into terms for MrsVan exactly how I feel, and I am struggling with a way to explain that I do not love her any less. Nor is there anything missing in our relationship. I truly did not seek this out, at first I was confused about my feelings as well. It has happened and now as a group we are attempting to work it out. Any help is welcome. While MrsVan and I may be experienced swingers we are not experienced with poly situations AND our friends have been nothing but a traditional couple for all the years they have been together.

 

Just looking for some helpful advice....

[couplers 4,646]

Hi, this is Petra. As someone in a poly situation, I can understand the conflicted emotions you are feeling; I hope it all works out. But don't beat yourself too much - remember that none of us can control who we have sexual urges for, become infatuated with, or fall in love with.

 

I have often been the odd person out on this board when it comes to advice in these situations, so take my perspective as the exception and not the norm. But I suggest you don't run from your feelings, your situation, rather embrace it. It may not be sex that is the primary force behind this, it may not be love - it could be puppy love, a mutual admiration thing, it doesn't matter. You have whatever feelings and dedication for your wife, regardless of your feelings for another. And if the love for your wife is not there, staying away from the other person won't change that.

 

I know it is a lot to ask, but the best thing would be for your wife and the other husband to let this take its course, whether it is a non-sexual fling for 6 months or a lasting, committed loving and sexual relationship. If they can see this as an opportunity to multiply happiness rather than dividing it, they too will find a joy in what results. Unfortunately, it usually doesn't work out this way because people are pounded by society on how to act when someone is attracted to their partner. Folks in this place, on this board, have gotten over the sexual aspect of sharing, but are always drawing lines, have their rules.

 

Take care.

[couplers 4,646]

Me again. Thinking about this a little more, you must assume that the other people involved will react as most people do, so you need to make them feel that your feelings are not a threat in any way. You spoke with your wife and reassured her, now make it clear to the other husband in itty bitty words and deeds that you admire his wife, but you are not going to "steal" her away. Spend time with her, yes, and make her happy, but the primary thought for you should be what's running through his mind and what will make him happy. Your goal should be to make him glad that you, wonderful guy that you are, find his wife attractive, you do good things for her, genuinely care, and will look out for her. It will also be much easier with your wife in the know and at your side each step of the way.

 

This assumes of course that you have your poly thoughts in order and are not feeling proprietary toward her.

 

PS - Sorry if it appears I'm obsessing about your situation and writing in the middle of the night. It's just that I/we went through the same things early on, plus right now I'm in Europe (it's daytime) alone without my partners so I'm reading about sex instead of having it.

[bbarnsworth 2,640]

I have often been the odd person out on this board when it comes to advice in these situations, so take my perspective as the exception and not the norm.

 

First, directly to Petra: WHAT? I for one consider you a treasured asset to this board. You have very refreshing views, and it is wonderful to read your posts. I see your pseudonym and I always read what you have to say. Don't sell yourself so short!

 

@Van: You don't yet have the tools to manage this. But, Petra has given you some excellent advice. Take it to heart.

 

This will take considerable time and devotion to work everything out. There will be no absolute right or wrong answers; just lots of gray. It's important to focus not on what society expects, but on how the four of you are working together, irrespective to the social rules that frequently get thrown at situations like this. Those tools from swinging should help you immeasurably in this regard. Don't assume something is bad just because it's different.

 

There are complex relationships developing here. Balancing them will take lots of effort, just as any vanilla marriage does. Openness, honesty, forthrightness will all serve you well...for all four of you. This is all new to all of you. Go slowly.

 

You note that your love for MrsVan is no less. Yet, you're struggling with a way to communicate that. Part of the problem may be preconceptions of how love is supposed to be. It's hard to break the shackles of our upbringing; one love, one spouse, one life, one marriage. But, such constructs are on the face of it laughable.

 

Do you love your wife any less because you love other members of your family? Of course not. "But that's a different kind of love!" some might say. So, your heart and soul have but one compartment available for the kind of love you devote to your spouse? Impossible for there to be anyone else in there? One size fits just one at a time? Of course not. The vast, vast majority of us have past relationships to people whom we loved very deeply. You don't just cast that aside and stop feeling for those people. Some of that love remains. You don't love your wife less for the past people whom you had close relationships with.

 

Your first hurdle here is learning, understanding and communicating the depth of love you have for your wife. That's irrespective of anyone else. Then, further to that learning how you...not anyone else in polyamory, but YOU...integrate having romantic love for another person in addition to your wife. You have to learn what that means for you. That's just the beginning.

 

Not every couple can successfully navigate these waters. There are dangers to be sure, but the rewards can also be immense. There's plenty of learning curves here; go slow.

 

There are plenty of polyamory resources out there. Those resources can give you a fantastic framework on which to add the 'meat' of your own experience, feelings, understanding, and thought. I know it helped me tremendously many years ago when I became part of a triad for a time.

[VanHlebar 187]

I know it is a lot to ask, but the best thing would be for your wife and the other husband to let this take its course, whether it is a non-sexual fling for 6 months or a lasting, committed loving and sexual relationship.

 

Well this is NOT going to happen. The other husband, while he says he is "ok" has already said that we are not to have anymore unsupervised visits. Now I am not sure if this is a permanent situation or something that "might" change again in the future once we all figure out how this is going to workout. I have no choice but to accept this at this moment in time.

 

PS - Sorry if it appears I'm obsessing about your situation and writing in the middle of the night. It's just that I/we went through the same things early on, plus right now I'm in europe (it's daytime) alone without my partners so I'm reading about sex instead of having it.

 

You aren't obsessing over my post, you are offer up advice and your opinion, both of which I clearly came looking for or I would not have posted my situation on a public board. I have been around here long enough to know and respect most of the members. I come here for advice because I know that I will get both the good AND the bad, if you will. I won't hear only what people think I want to hear and many times folks offer up a different point of view that I haven't thought of yet. So no worries on multiple posts in the middle of my night.

 

You note that your love for MrsVan is no less. Yet, you're struggling with a way to communicate that. Part of the problem may be preconceptions of how love is supposed to be. It's hard to break the shackles of our upbringing; one love, one spouse, one life, one marriage. But, such constructs are on the face of it laughable.

 

Do you love your wife any less because you love other members of your family? Of course not. "But that's a different kind of love!" some might say. So, your heart and soul have but one compartment available for the kind of love you devote to your spouse? Impossible for there to be anyone else in there? One size fits just one at a time? Of course not. The vast, vast majority of us have past relationships to people whom we loved very deeply. You don't just cast that aside and stop feeling for those people. Some of that love remains. You don't love your wife less for the past people whom you had close relationships with.

 

Ah my friend, see this is the crux of it all. I have used these very same examples while talking to MrsVan about this just recently, and at the moment, she still doesn't see it this way. I understand where she is coming from, you don't get to that view over night. I have had an 18mos jump start on all this and am 18mos of thinking, pondering and self evaluating, ahead of the rest of the group. I have been dealing with this LONG before anyone knew anything about it and I have spent a lot of time at a different board, multiple websites and even reading a book to help me understand what is going on. So I can't expect what took me this long to "sort of figure out", for the rest of the group to catch up in a weekend.

 

We all have a starting point to work from and that is that nobody wants to lose the bond and friendship that we have built over the past couple of years. This other couple are very wise and are not the typical vanilla couple. While I am not sure how this is going to fall out, neither of them are all that concerned with what others think. We have had that talk a number of times as a group, as most of their neighborhood think we are all one large happy unit as it is. We have had a number of discussions about people talking about us and as many on this board have wondered over the years, why can't folks just mind their own business? If it works for some and not others, so be it.

 

Anyways I am beginning to ramble.... I am not convinced that the other husband is really "ok" with all of this, and to be honest how could he be? I know what I felt like trying to get up the courage to discuss this with MrsVan, and his wife had all but a day to do it in. He and I where supposed to be getting together this weekend, prior to all this coming out, now I am not sure if we still are. I have sent him a text to see if we are still golfing, but he has yet to respond. This is not unusual with him, but since he has pretty much ignored my other texts that have to deal with the situation, it has made me skeptical of his actual "acceptance".

 

MrsVan and the wife are meeting for dinner tomorrow night to discuss things. It has been difficult because the other wife has company in from out of town all week long (yea can you say terrible timing), and they have not been able to get together. I am actually a bit nervous about them getting together, why I don't know. They have done dinner more times together than I can count over the years, but for some reason this one is different. I worry about them both and I know there are going to be a ton of tears at dinner. I do know that they both love each other very much and this will be a HUGE step in setting things right again between them.

 

As for me, well I really need to finish my talk with the other wife, but that is difficult to do now. I can't meet her alone to do this, text messaging is getting so tough at this point and email isn't much better. I can't pick up the phone and call her because of the company that is in town until this weekend. So I guess I am stuck, waiting for the weekend and even then, her husband will be home and with everything going on, it would seem very wrong to take time away from their healing process so that her and I could talk.

 

-Van

[slevin 1,374]

Can you explain exactly how this came out once you figured out your own feelings? Did you bring this up with the other woman? Did she express feelings towards you prior to you bringing it up? Did you bring this up with them both there?

 

[VanHlebar 187]

slevin said:

Can you explain exactly how this came out once you figured out your own feelings? Did you bring this up with the other woman? Did she express feelings towards you prior to you bringing it up? Did you bring this up with them both there?

 

 

Sure can. I started to realize something was "different" probably around the beginning of last year. Can't really give a specific time frame but it was around there, before we where supposed to leave for a vacation with them. Once I figured this out, I talked to MrsVan to let her know about my feelings because there was a very strong possibility that on this vacation we where all going to finally get a chance to play. Turns out we where not able to play for nature's reasons and from that point on play stuff has been pretty much shut off.

 

I have been going back and forth with what my true emotions have been. At first I said I loved her, then after seeing MrsVan's response I back tracked and said maybe it is just a "love" stronger than a normal friend but not romantic. Then I tried to ignore them hoping they would go away, like that was really going to work.

 

It all came out with the other wife because I made a joke last week while we where all out to dinner that really really hurt her and upset her. I felt terrible about this and her response to my joke really made me think that there was something else going on. When her and I talked the next day, she also indicated that my response of being very upset and me saying I had learned a few things from the joke incident caused her to think that maybe I had feelings. She pressured me a lot the next day via text message to explain things and at one point she said, look I am pretty sure that I know what you are going to say, but I need to hear you actually say it. It was at this point that I just said it. Text messaging was NOT the way I wanted to handle this at all. MrsVan previously had said that I was not to say anything to this couple about my feelings as she was deathly afraid to lose her best friend. I haven't even seen the other wife or husband face to face yet since this all has happened. I get that honor tonight at volleyball.

[realcplub2 513]

Van, I am glad you read and quoted bbarnsworth, I was very close to what I was going to say.. great minds and all that, lol

 

We have a great capability to have love and compassionate feelings for multiple people in our lives, and even those that aren’t in them anymore. Tell me honestly you haven't thought of a past love at least once this year, someone you may not have seen in a decade or so. It happens, and again, its part of the human condition

 

The key to all of this, is your wife. We are on a board where we advocate a different lifestyle and attempt to differentiate between love and sex, and sometimes those lines become blurred. Its the one point that the vaniulla media seizes on, think back to the NGC show Taboo, about swinging, of course they found people who have had negative expereinces, and had relationship and marriages break up, because there wasnt a frank discussion about what had developed.

 

Van, I wouldnt expect your wife to understand this right off the bat, the fact that this has been a slow process over 18 months, is part of the problem. The other being, because you were trying to deal with what you were feeling by yourself, without communication that to her, is the another part. I doubt that if you had told her about this in the first 6 months it would have been received any better, but, by keeping this to yourself as you tried to work thru it, She may have even more cause for resentment.

 

The largest part of what you need to communicate, and SHOW her is that these feelings do not diminish how you feel about her. and explain to her that these feeling for the other wife do not REPLACE how you care for her.

 

The other thing that hasnt been talked about a whole lot is what the other husband has to say about all of this? Where is he at in this? Is he in the LOOP? or still in the dark?

[bbarnsworth 2,640]

I don't think texting and e-mailing is the way to handle this. Such tools provide convenient means to hide behind a screen, but it's fraught with all manner of problems. I'd avoid using those communication methods for sensitive topics like this.

 

Many of us have, on contact with a chaotic situation, a great desire to resolve a situation to a settled end. If we could find an answer right now, we'd feel a lot better about it all and be able to move forward. Oh to be so lucky. Life progresses on its own time, and you have little in the way of control over it. I'm sensing in some of your expressed thoughts some anxiousness and impatience with the resolution of this.

 

Calm. Relax your soul. Breathe deeply.

 

You've had 18 months to work on this. The other couple, zero.

 

My wife and I have a rule, though not a 'play' rule. We're both free to have sex with others as much and as often as we like with a given play mate given a few predicates. One of those is that we are not falling in love with our play partners, and our play partners are not falling in love with us. If that happens, we are to quit playing with them cold turkey. No more. There's a reasonable chance we'd break contact too, but that's not a rule.

 

If we were the other couple, we'd break off playing with you. I know, you're not really playing with them, but what I'm getting at is this; they may be in a response mode along the lines of "Oh crap! Van is falling in love with one of us! We feel strongly for them as friends, and have a close bond, and don't want to end the friendship. But...damn! How in hell do we handle this?"

[Alura 2,774]

I'm just a hick Okie, Van, and I can't say I've had any experience with Polyamory, but it seems to me that you have two choices ... the four of you can agree to swap partners and experience that which you've long wondered about, or you can continue living as friends as before, pushing this phase under the table to never mention again. The positive part seems to be that nobody is willing to sacrifice the marriages or the friendship.

 

But the decision needs to be made by all four... together ... openly ... by talking out fears and feelings. Without that, yours will be less than the friendship y'all once had. ...and by the way, there's no reason that the four can't research polyamory together just like a couple might investigate swinging. The decision doesn't have to be made yesterday.

 

Good Luck!

 

Alura

[gatorvol64 216]

Hey there!

 

I won't say much here but, don't be discouraged yet. This takes time and major communication.

 

It's a matter of changing a mindset. We are taught that you love one person and, if you really do love that person, you can not possibly love someone else as well. We are taught we only have a certain amount of romantic love to give and finding you love someone new must mean you love the original less.

 

You are ahead of the others in your progress to get past this mindset. Poly is just like swinging in that it's best to go at the pace of the slowest.

 

Hang in there. Both you and MrsVan.

 

Vol

[couplers 4,646]

This is one of the most interesting posts here because it gets to the heart of the contradictions we all have, how we deal with them, and how we make the most of our lives as humans. Our fundamental nature is to want a stable marriage, while having the freedom to become involved in other relationships. The shared idea on this Board is that overcoming feelings of sexual exclusiveness leads to great joy. Some stuggle to open up sexually, while others give to their spouse and receive sexual freedom easily but all seem to worry about emotional involvement. Most people here seem to fear emotional involvement and deal with it by having "just sex" with people they hardly know or devising any number of rules. I have no problem with that, just the way I have no problem with monogamy. But it seems to me that overcoming the hurdle of emotional exclusiveness can be just as rewarding as overcoming sexual exclusiveness. No doubt it is difficult. To watch one's spouse suddenly find fascination/infatuation in a new relationship can be difficult. So is doing the laundry, taking out the trash and doing all those other things we do for our spouse. However, it can also be, just like the sexual hotness of sharing, a real joy. And the fact is that after that infatuation is over there is more love than ever between the couple. Even the cheaters universally despised here usually don't want to end the marriage, the basic relationship is too important and too valuable.

 

Even though I said that I feel like an outsider here because I do not swing in the usual sense (it's me and my two boys), this place has allowed me to see our arrangements as an achievement, not a deviancy. There is a shared joy here about what we have been able to accomplish by understanding ourselves, and much good advice.

 

After conquering the reality of our sexual and emotional nonmonogamy, the final reality (one I haven't yet faced) is that it is not in our nature as humans to mate for life. While everything seems so grand now, I worry to some degree every day that it will fall apart at some point. Until them, I treasure what my sister said to me, "Do you know how fuckin' lucky you are, Petunia?" For now that's enough and makes work at keeping my "family" happy.

 

 

So Mr. Van even if you two never touch, enjoy the high of your new relationship while working to keep the others happy.

[The Fuse 1,012]

Hi Van, and Mrs. Van.

 

There is obviously a lot of longing and anxiety here. I don't know you, but I am really sorry that any of you are experiencing these types of feelings. It seems like love should bring warmth and happiness. Instead sometimes it brings feelings of fear and painful longing.

 

That being said, I guess at a time like this when your head is buzzing and you can't believe you all have to just be in this holding pattern, it's important to start from the things that are kind of immovable. For one, since your friends have company it is up to the other lady to find any time to really communicate with you. If she doesn't, there's not much you can do about it. Another thing is that whatever rules her husband lays down, you have to respect not only the letter of, but the meaning of, i.e. between the lines. The "no unsupervised visits" thing says loudly and clearly to me that he is afraid of what would happen if you were alone with his wife. Sexually or emotionally or both, he feels threatened enough that he has to be there whenever you're with her. This is not a good sign. Maybe he'll get over it, but if he doesn't then he is basically saying "she's mine and you're not going to have any part of her".

 

Also, Mrs. Van is struggling with this. This means that first and foremost, you have to do whatever you need to do to reassure her she is not losing you, that you are committed to her emotionally, even if not exclusively. But she has to know that she can still count on you for all the things she has in the past. That whatever you feel for someone else, it doesn't interfere with the love and devotion you feel for her. This is tough for most people to figure out and to believe.

 

You've had a while to get your head around the idea of loving more than one, and how that can enrich everyone's life as opposed to taking away from it. I can't really help with this, as these are ideas I was imbued with as a teenager by reading a bunch of books by Robert A. Heinlein (Time Enough for Love, Stranger in a Strange Land, Number of the Beast and more). It has always seemed natural for me. The key is that all the primaries know they are still primary, that 20, 30, 40 years from now, their love will still love them regardless of this other relationship. You'll still take care of her when she gets sick. You'll still hold her when life deals her a blow. You'll still BE there. This mindset is so hard for people to get. And truthfully, not everyone is built that way. If they come around, it will take time.

 

I really hope that your relationships all navigate these waters. It is quite possible, with lots of nurturing, but only if everyone is accepting of what is happening and wants happiness for all, in whatever form that happens. I also hope that you and the other three all get to air your feelings with honest and positive-attitude discussions.

 

Finally, I know it's hard to wait. That's really tough to handle when all you want to do is deal with this important thing in your life. The only thing I can say is to try to think about how things might be six months from now, and how to best deliberately get there. Letting something happen too quickly would probably not help.

 

I hope you keep coming back and posting.

[Guest MrsVan]

So Mr. Van even if you two never touch, enjoy the high of your new relationship while working to keep the others happy.

 

Couplers,

 

I have to say that I have tried to stay out of this post because I am giving MrVan a chance to have a place to get some advise to help us deal with what we are going through. However, I have to say that your comments at times make me sick to my stomach to hear you tell my husband to "run with his feelings, emotions" or to "enjoy the high". We are NOT in a poly relationship and never will be in a poly relationship. I have nothing against a poly relationship and know other that have become friends to us that are in a poly relationship but for those that this works for I am happy for you but this is not what I want.

 

I know we all have our own opinions and I do not disagree. But I have a hard time reading the posts on here and seeing each time that you are basically telling MrVan (my husband) to run with what he is feeling. This situation for me has been extremely painful for me, confusing and making me feel at a loss. I look here hoping to find something to take with me as I try to regain what is lost between my husband and I but I just cannot get past the advise you offer.

 

Please know that I mean no disrespect, it is just while we are dealing with a situation that none of us expected I do not think that telling him to run with his emotions, etc is helping us.

 

MrsVan

[Alura 2,774]

I had the impression, Mrs. Van, that nobody is willing to "run with his/her feelings." Rather, that it had been decided to not risk either of the marriages.

 

That doesn't change that y'all have a problem that can only be solved by the four of you talking at length about the problem.

 

As I suggested above, there are only two choices. If any one person will not budge from "push it under the table and never mention it again" that's the way it will need to be.

 

Good luck to all four of you. My guess is that all of you are very good people.

Mother Earth and Father Sky will guide you as you talk it out.

 

Alura

[Coupleerotic22 1,419]

I had resisted posting to this thread for a number of reasons. First, we have never had to deal with it, so my thoughts are purely conjecture. Second, this is the thing that frightens me most about swinging, that one of us will find strong emotional attachment with a playmate, maybe not love, but approaching it.

 

But now that MrsVan has chimed in, things are more clear for me now.

 

One of the few rules we have is our family and relationship comes before anything else. If either of starts to realize we are having serious feelings then we back away from the situation and protect our relationship. I know poly is an option for some, but not all, we fall into the latter. We had a talk in bed about this very thread and have both reiterated those feelings.

 

Unfortunately, emotions are something like a horizon-less cliff, you don't see it coming until it is right there in front of you.

 

Not being poly, I can only make assumptions, but it seems to me to be similar to swinging in this regard, if everyone is not on-board then it is a no go. Clearly MrsVan, and apparently the other husband, if not the wife, are not on-board with a poly relationship.

 

So where does this leave MrVan? Driving off the cliff or hitting the breaks as hard as you can and hope it is not too late. No doubt, easier said than done. Clearly, you have lost something in your relationship with MrsVan. That would have been a logical assumption, but it was also clearly stated by MrsVan. My guess, that loss is primarily trust, but maybe other things as well.

 

This is my perspective and I don't expect everyone to agree with it. But if I were in your shoes, or MrsVan's shoes, I would want a break away from this couple for a while at least. Maybe not an end to the friendship, but certainly a hiatus. Just to give time for everything to cool down. I would not want to swing with them again, ever, it would just be too difficult for all parties involved. I would want to take a break from swinging as well, perhaps even a permanent break. I know that may sound extreme, but our relationship is too precious for me to tarnish, let alone break.

 

In my mind there are only three things that can happen:

A Poly relationship - clearly not an option here.

A broken relationship - that does not sound like what either of you want

A mended relationship - seems to be the best solution, but possibly the most difficult to achieve.

 

What you and MrsVan decide to do should be based on what you both feel and agree that you can handle, but if I were in your shoes I would want to go the extra mile to make sure our relationship was sound and trust was returned. IF this is not 'true love", just strong feelings or "puppy love" then you should be able to pack those feelings away until they subside on their own, because true love with your wife would trump them everytime

 

Again, just my opinion, it is worth what you are paying for it.

 

Good luck, I hope this all works out well for both of you.

[lovinher 505]

To Mrs. Van....Between all lines and regardless of what others have said. Mr. Van needs to decide who is more important. If it is you, and I hope it is because we have been on the board long enough to have a feeling of who or what type of people you two are. Those that are saying to Mr. Van to go with his feelings. To try to work it out so he can have his cake and eat it too, are not considering your feelings. You obviously do not want that. This must be heartbreaking for you and is bullshit. In this case it has to be one or the other and I don't feel Mr.Van in realizing that or is oblivious to what this is doing to you.

 

To Mr.Van. So who is more important? Your wife or your hormone driven other? What you are doing is not fair to the woman you married. Don't you realize how you must be making her feel? Of course you do! But in a way I hope you don't because if you do, then your being extremely selfish and not much of a man to man up and drop the other. Sure it will be hard . But you are only thinking of yourself. Plain and simple, period. Put the shoe on the other foot. If it would hurt you extremely then you know what to do. I have no respect for someone who would put the woman they are supposedly still in love with through this. Regardless of your excuses. Hormones are powerful. True love is fore ever-remember that. So cave in to the hormones running through your brain and you will end up miserable. If what you say is true about your feelings for wife, there is only one thing to do-drop the other and stay a mile away regardless of the friendship situation. Get some balls and do the right thing.

[Guest MrsVan]

Coupleerotic22 said:

This is my perspective and I don't expect everyone to agree with it. But if I were in your shoes, or MrsVan's shoes, I would want a break away from this couple for a while at least. Maybe not an end to the friendship, but certainly a hiatus. Just to give time for everything to cool down. I would not want to swing with them again, ever, it would just be too difficult for all parties involved. I would want to take a break from swinging as well, perhaps even a permanent break. I know that may sound extreme, but our relationship is too precious for me to tarnish, let alone break.

 

Thanks for your post! I want to quote you on this part of your post however and make it clear we have been on a break from swinging for over a year due to issues that we have posted before on this site. Life has not been kind to us and therefore we had to choose to take a break. With this other couple, we have NEVER had a sexual encounter in the time that we have all been together. This is a relationship that was clearly from the beginning strictly very close friends. The dynamics of it all changed over time, and while there would be flirting, etc they knew about us in the LS and accepted us for who we were.

 

I want to make it clear to everyone here that I know my husband loves me, and I know that I have no worries of losing him to her because she will never leave her husband and well I am confident that MrVan would not leave me. Right now trust has been broken and there is a lot to repair for me. While we struggle with this issue, we all four are on the same page that we do NOT want to lose the friendship we have and we are all willing to try to work through this.

 

We are all trying to talk this out and last night I met up with my best friend to get her side and she also has feelings for MrVan but says they are the same feelings for me. So if she is "in love" with MrVan then she is "in love" with me. Where does that leave us? I do not know but I know that I do not want to lose my husband or my best friend.

 

I thank everyone for their posts and hope that in time, we can heal the wounds and get past this obstacle one way or another.

 

MrsVan

[Guest MrsVan]

Lovinher,

 

I know that MrVan loves me and feels that our marriage is more important. He has offered to step out of the friendship completely. While he would not be happy he is willing to take that step. So please know that he is trying to find ways to repair what has been broken. The entire group has made it clear that they do not want to lose the friendship we all have. Right now I have advised MrVan and my best friend that I do not want them to meet alone any longer. The only way that they will get to see each other is when they play volleyball (which the other husband plays with them and I am usually there as well) or when all four of us get together. I feel that some of the time they spent together alone helped increase feelings that MrVan had for her and just intensified those feelings. And I think in some respect this is the same for my best friend. I am hoping that by slowing things down and making these changes that maybe things will work themselves out and we can start to repair the wounds.

[Coupleerotic22 1,419]

Thanks for your post! I want to quote you on this part of your post however and make it clear we have been on a break from swinging for over a year due to issues that we have posted before on this site. Life has not been kind to us and therefore we had to choose to take a break. With this other couple, we have NEVER had a sexual encounter in the time that we have all been together. This is a relationship that was clearly from the beginning strictly very close friends. The dynamics of it all changed over time, and while there would be flirting, etc they knew about us in the LS and accepted us for who we were.

 

I want to make it clear to everyone here that I know my husband loves me, and I know that I have no worries of losing him to her because she will never leave her husband and well I am confident that MrVan would not leave me. Right now trust has been broken and there is a lot to repair for me. While we struggle with this issue, we all four are on the same page that we do NOT want to lose the friendship we have and we are all willing to try to work through this.

 

We are all trying to talk this out and last night I met up with my best friend to get her side and she also has feelings for MrVan but says they are the same feelings for me. So if she is "in love" with MrVan then she is "in love" with me. Where does that leave us? I do not know but I know that I do not want to lose my husband or my best friend.

 

I thank everyone for their posts and hope that in time, we can heal the wounds and get past this obstacle one way or another.

 

MrsVan

 

I apologize for misspeaking. I do remember reading that previously. I had just forgotten. As I said I had no intention of posting to this thread, I just did not feel I had anything to add. But your post moved me to do so. It sounds like you have much more of a grasp of what you want and where you need to go than you think. Good luck.

[bbarnsworth 2,640]

I want to make it clear to everyone here that I know my husband loves me, and I know that I have no worries of losing him to her because she will never leave her husband and well I am confident that MrVan would not leave me.

 

Quoting MrsVan, but responding to lovinher, I don't think there's any question of a choice as to who MrVan wants to be with. I never for a moment doubted he wanted to be with MrsVan, period. This is deeper than that.

 

MrVan finds himself in an unusual (for him) situation. He loves his wife dearly, and also finds himself loving another woman. This is very hard on him. He's (as this thread is titled) trying to work it all out. It's difficult. Very difficult. I don't detect in any of this that he is wanting to make an either 'a' or 'b' (or 'c' or 'd') choice.

 

 

Right now trust has been broken and there is a lot to repair for me.

 

Perhaps I've missed something. I don't see that MrVan has broken trust. I think he's been slowly struggling with an issue and has, when he could verbalize it, tried to discuss it with you. I don't see in any of this that he has broken trust. I'm not saying you have to have an action to break trust. Far from it. I think a person can 'cheat' without action, though it's often more obscure without action. I don't know your relationship, and all the sequence of events and thoughts that have transpired in this situation. But, from what I've seen, MrVan hasn't done something to break trust.

 

 

While we struggle with this issue, we all four are on the same page that we do NOT want to lose the friendship we have and we are all willing to try to work through this.

 

That's the juggling act you find yourself in. It will be hard.

 

 

I thank everyone for their posts and hope that in time, we can heal the wounds and get past this obstacle one way or another.

 

You will! Of that I'm quite certain.

[slevin 1,374]

MrsVan said:

Lovinher,

 

I know that MrVan loves me and feels that our marriage is more important. He has offered to step out of the friendship completely. While he would not be happy he is willing to take that step. So please know that he is trying to find ways to repair what has been broken. The entire group has made it clear that they do not want to lose the friendship we all have. Right now I have advised MrVan and my best friend that I do not want them to meet alone any longer. The only way that they will get to see each other is when they play volleyball (which the other husband plays with them and I am usually there as well) or when all four of us get together. I feel that some of the time they spent together alone helped increase feelings that MrVan had for her and just intensified those feelings. And I think in some respect this is the same for my best friend. I am hoping that by slowing things down and making these changes that maybe things will work themselves out and we can start to repair the wounds.

 

I wonder if the long standing tension of potential play with her hasn't helped to inflate the intensity of those feelings. I wouldn't recommend playing with them, but it makes me curious if those feelings would have been as intense if that tension hadn't been allowed to build. Of course, that doesn't help you sort out your situation though.

[VanHlebar 187]

I had started a response here but had to put the keyboard down and think more on my response. Now the power is out and I am on my phone so it will need to wait until later. I will respond and give more information that will clarify things for people I promise. Thank you to and everyone of you for your thoughtful posts.

[LikeMinds321 1,527]

slevin said:

 

I wonder if the long standing tension of potential play with her hasn't helped to inflate the intensity of those feelings. I wouldn't recommend playing with them, but it makes me curious if those feelings would have been as intense if that tension hadn't been allowed to build....

Precisely my thoughts.

 

A year and a half is a long time to want to have sex, make "love" with, a woman for whom you have feelings and see/communicate with regularly. Although you all saw each other naked while playing titillating games some time ago, that isn't the same as sex with a person. Mr Van, I think it be reasonable to say that you have though about, and been longing for, sex with this woman for a long time.

 

I'm not a Poly person, nor is my husband, and neither of us are open to it for a variety of reasons. I wanted to mention this so people know what my position is, because I think it influences my opinion.

 

I'm going to speak from a vanilla standpoint, more than a swinger standpoint, because I think the fact that Mr/Mrs Van are swingers has little/nothing to do with their dilemma.

 

Eighteen months ago Mr Van knew he was falling for (in love, maybe?) with his wife's best friend. From your posts, I'm not sure how clearly he expressed this early on to Mrs Van, or if Mr Van has only now expressed his feelings with unsettling clarity.

 

There have got be plenty of "my husband says he's fallen love with my best friend" stories out there in the world. This is what we've got here. I don't think anyone really wants a poly relationship here. Mr Van, I think considering poly is a way of trying to keep two woman in your life. I believe it is an honest attempt on your part, but I don't think it is practical. Mrs Van is not open to it, I don't think she should be expected to change her mind, so waiting for her to come 'round to poly is not advice I can agree with.

 

Mr and Mrs Van, I wish you both a satisfactory resolution that will bring calm relief and strength within you.

[DocWill 83]

I did my best to stay away from this thread because I didn’t feel like anything I had to say would have any bearing on the situation or outcome (not that I would want it to), but there are so many similarities to many different personal experiences that I just couldn’t help adding my $0.02- for what it’s worth.

 

LM made a good point in saying that this (on the surface at least) really has little to do with swinging- and I think that point needs to be stressed here in this thread. I have known several vanilla couples who were very close with other couples (or even casual acquaintances) that ended up in this dilemma. In fact, it’s almost a societal cliché that dates back to the beginning of written history. That being said, there are a couple of positives to take away from this thread IMO:

 

For one, MrVan’s honesty (or perhaps integrity is a better word) with the situation is something a lot of people lack. If I had a dollar for every married person I knew that just “went with their feelings” or “let the chips fall where they may” when it came to feelings for someone other than their spouse I’d be able to swing a decent bar tab. The second thing to take away from this (though not a comfortable thought to many) is that developing feelings of affection towards close friends, especially those of the opposite sex, is normal- it’s the action one takes on those feelings, and the perceptions held by those affected by the situation, that determines the “morality” of the situation. In this case, MrVan’s feelings, while normal given the close nature of the relationship, are having an adverse affect on other people. That, in and of itself, is a no brainer- and I think Mr and MrsVan have stated as much. Another good thing about this thread is the communication process displayed here- and I feel, barring any unexpected or forbidden actions, that this will work itself out for the better as far as Mr and MrsVan are concerned because they CAN talk openly about their feelings- feelings that many people feel are taboo, but in reality are quite "normal."

 

I believe that it is possible to be in love or have feelings of affection for two different people under certain circumstances… and I’m a firm believer that a person (unless they’re a true Type A) can’t avoid developing those feelings in situations where societal norms are pushed or broken. I don’t think there is any “explanation” that MrVan can give that will clarify the situation- it is what it is simply because it’s possible- if that makes any sense. The trick here is moving forward- and that’s just not something that’s easily explained away on a message board. There are too many variables that rely on personal traits, past histories, and socialization for that to be possible.

 

As always, I believe identifying and understanding the “why” is more important than the “it.” Once a person can figure out the “why” behind an emotional dilemma they can understand and deal with the result. My advice would be to continue talking this out… first with each other and then with the other couple. This is really tricky territory, but if you have the trust… then the rest will come with time and patience.

 

Last thing, I don't think having sex would have changed things. There's a fine line (IMO) between forbidden fruit, temptation, and actual love. If anything, a physical encounter would have made this worse. Just make sure the feelings are accurate and not some misguided desire. Again, it's the "why" that needs figuring out.

[Guest MrsVan]

I apologize for misspeaking. I do remember reading that previously. I had just forgotten. As I said I had no intention of posting to this thread, I just did not feel I had anything to add. But your post moved me to do so. It sounds like you have much more of a grasp of what you want and where you need to go than you think. Good luck.

 

No problem about the misspeaking:) Sometimes on the board it is very hard to remember all the details.

 

While appreciate your kind words about my grasp of things, I feel like I am far from it. It will take time for me to heal and get past this. I know what I want and that is to repair my marriage and to keep my best friend. I know I am blessed to have them in my life but just not sure where to go from here but I will figure it out I am sure.

 

MrsVan

[Guest MrsVan]

 

Perhaps I've missed something. I don't see that MrVan has broken trust. I think he's been slowly struggling with an issue and has, when he could verbalize it, tried to discuss it with you. I don't see in any of this that he has broken trust. I'm not saying you have to have an action to break trust. Far from it. I think a person can 'cheat' without action, though it's often more obscure without action. I don't know your relationship, and all the sequence of events and thoughts that have transpired in this situation. But, from what I've seen, MrVan hasn't done something to break trust.

 

 

The reason that I am saying trust was broken is becuase they both went shopping last week before all this came out over the weekend and I found out with everything else that they shared a passionate kiss and MrVan had put his hand up her skirt while kissing. This in a group does not bother me but this is something that a boundary was broken and this is why I say that trust has been broken and why I have to find a way to build the trust again between us.

 

As for everyone else's posts...I have to come and say that while I am struggling with what has come out, I have in fact known about these feelings that MrVan has had for my best friend. The problem was when it first came out he made it out to be that he had strong feelings for her but then he came back after afraid to hurt my feelings and said that maybe they are just feelings for a friend but not as strong as he is making it out to be. I allowed for them to continue to get together during the day for coffee or if she needed a babysitter, or to get together for lunch and shopping but now looking back I wonder if all of this helped to increase the emotions he had for her by allowing him alone time with her. I know that MrVan cannot help what he is feeling. I know that he did not seek for this to happen and had no intention on hurting me. That I get..I will agree with DocWill in which we do have great communication and have been open and honest with each other from the day we met. I was even told by my best friend last night how much she admires the open communication we have because so many people do not have that with their spouses. I can say that while we have great communication some mistakes where made along the way over the year with this situation in which everything has not been communicated well to me and things have come out after the fact but I know that MrVan and I can work on this and get our communication back on track.

 

I know that MrVan posted this to get help with the situation. He has feelings that I can not change and I cannot make them go away. They are what they are. Now it is the struggle of finding a way to deal with this.

 

I thank everyone for their posts and advise! This is the reason we love coming here because we get honest opinions and some great advise. We appreciate the support and the advise!

 

MrsVan

[cplnuswing 4,713]

I'm going to speak from a vanilla standpoint, more than a swinger standpoint, because I think the fact that Mr/Mrs Van are swingers has little/nothing to do with their dilemma.

 

There have got be plently of "my husband says he's fallen love with my best friend" stories out there in the world. This is what we've got here. I don't think anyone really wants a poly relationship here.

 

I think this is absolutely true. Although Mr/Mrs Van are swingers and their friends, while not swingers, are certainly Lifestyle-aware for lack of a better term, I don't think the path forward must lie in some sort of swinging or polyamory solution. In fact, insisting on looking for an answer there could very likely make things worse.

 

I believe that the first hurdle one must clear when faced with any betrayal of trust or deep disappointment from someone you love is to truly accept that things have changed no matter how badly you wish things would have remained the way they were. That does not mean that when all is said and done, the overall sum of the change can't be positive though. Some areas of the relationship may have suffered a setback, but others may have improved leading to an overall stronger relationship.

 

Some relationships make it through a stress test and come out stronger on the other side, but sadly some don't come out at all. But, I think the one's that do become stronger are the one's where both parties involved come to grips early on that things have changed from the way they were and that for there to be hope of success, everyone most focus their efforts on moving forward to a different place, not move backwards in a futile attempt to recreate exactly what was there before.

 

In this case, achieving this is going to be twice as hard. Not only are Mr. and Mrs. Van trying to find their way forward with their relationship, they both are wanting to maintain the friendship the way it was. I think that you both already have a great start on working through this in your own relationship with your open communication, honesty, etc. What I think you are going to find much more difficult is maintaining the friendship in the way it was before while strengthening your own. That may be an impossible expectation to meet, and although it's hard to accept the loss or reduction of true friendship, you have to balance what the costs of continuing to pursue that will be to your own relationship and personal happiness.

 

Good luck to all of you in working through this.

[lovinher 505]

I'm sorry but given the feelings they have for each other and the admitted lack of trust on your part, I don't see how a friendship with this couple can be possible. There is no switch to turn off feelings of this nature. There's no magic wand to make it go away. It's going to be a very hard choice to make. But IMO, it's the only one. Either way, somebody is going to get hurt. And Mrs. Van, yours already are and Mr Van is the only one who can fix that.

I can't blame him for his feelings but he is the only one who can fix this and the choice is obvious.

 

Good luck to you both.

[VanHlebar 187]

Ok, so where to begin? First this will be long and I apologize for taking so long to get back here to answer everyone. Life and other items such as network going down kept me from being able to use the laptop and although small posts work from my Android, not something like this.

 

First I want to say thank you to every single member that has participated here. This is THE reason we love this forum. We have been around here for a number of years now and although reading some of the responses has been difficult for me, every single one has given me something to think about or look at our situation from a different perspective. I will try my best to answer all of you the questions that where asked to me, if I miss your specific question, please let me know, it wasn't on purpose, just so much here now.

 

One other piece of housekeeping. I have given the link to my GF and have encouraged her to at the very least come here and read this so that she and her husband can keep up on what MrsVan and I are talking about to others. I have also encouraged her to join and participate in this discussion if she would like and I explained that it could be very helpful to her, as well as to us. She has already read the thread I started at a different forum.

 

Now, many including MrsVan have indicated that a poly situation is not going to work. I myself have indicated and agreed with MrsVan and my GF that what I am looking for is NOT a poly arrangement, in the true sense I guess. I would argue and I have said this to MrsVan already, and she sort of agreed, we have basically been living in this type of arrangement for the past year and half or more. Poly does not have to be all four members of a group having emotions for each other. It also does not have to have any sexual relationship involved to be called poly. I will be specific here so that everyone understands what my "ideal" situation would be out of where we are. I want what I already had with my GF prior to me having a serious lapse in judgment last week AND prior to my feels for my GF and hers for me, coming out. We already would meet at times for coffee, lunch, go shopping or run errands together. MrsVan has once even watched my GF's little one so that her and I could go watch a movie that MrsVan and her husband had no interest in going to see. At one point in time, all four of us where on the same page about playing together. It was going to happen and everyone was very ok with that. I would still like to go with that for EVERYONE, not just because I am sexually attracted to my GF. Now with all of that said, that is my "ideal" situation. I know that my ideal situation and reality are not going to be the same, maybe never. I am ok with that, but everyone needed to know what I am looking for so we have a starting point. And while I would agree with MrsVan, my GF and everyone else that says a poly situation is not the place to be, I would argue that we where/are there already. Poly, just like swinging comes in my flavors. I have learned over the last few years that labels suck and I think in this situation, the label of "poly" is causing some issues, but that is another topic for another day.

 

A year and a half is a long time to want to have sex, make "love" with, a woman for whom you have feelings and see/communicate with regularly. Although you all saw each other naked while playing titilating games some time ago, that isn't the same as sex with a person. Mr Van, I think it be reasonable to say that you have though about, and been longing for, sex with this woman for a long time.

 

This is absolutely true. I know that in our group there is not a single person who would disagree with this. As a little more history I will add, that our "games" began around March or so of last year. I realized I was having feelings for my GF way before that time. So while it could/will be stated that the swinging aspect may have increased/caused these feelings, I am not convinced of this. I can't not say for sure it has not increased the feelings either, I just don't know. I just know where I am and I would also say that one would think that 18mos is a VERY long time to desire someone without having that desire fade. How many of you can say that you have had that desire for a play partner without ever having the actual opportunity to play with that partner and have it remain in tack for that long? I would venture to guess that most of you would have left that play partner long ago realizing that it wasn't going to happen. I say this to try to put into perspective that this is more than just a sex and play situation.

 

There have got be plently of "my husband says he's fallen love with my best friend" stories out there in the world. This is what we've got here. I don't think anyone really wants a poly relationship here. Mr Van, I think considering poly is a way of trying to keep two woman in your life. I believe it is an honest attempt on your part, but I don't think it is practical. Mrs Van is not open to it, I don't think she should be expected to change her mind, so waiting for her to come 'round to poly is not advice I can agree with.

 

I am going to quote you LM, but I am responding to more than just you, just easier this way. I have seen a couple of times something similar to this or the statement of "MrVan just want his cake and eat it to." I would say to this, don't we all? Haven't most of us on this board that are involved in swinging at some level, or at least open to it, wanting our cake and eating it too? Haven't we made a conscious decision to go against what society tell us, that we must love AND have sex with only the person that we are married to or committed to? Please explain to me, how your wanting your cake and eating it to, is any different than mine? Why because mine has love attached to it and it isn't just purely for sex? I absolutely want my cake and eat it to. I have to agree with DocWill, while on the surface this really can appear to be your typical thread of "damn I fell for my wife's best friend and I don't want to lose them both". However, most of those are the husbands coming here looking for a way to tell their wife or asking for help hiding it or trying to figure out how they can use swinging to keep everything. Sorry, but I have been honest and upfront about my feelings with MrsVan, my GF and her husband. No hiding anything in this group. I am not using Poly as a means to an ends here. I posted it in this group because this is where it fit best. Let me tell you something, coming out to my wife regarding my feelings about my GF the first time was the SCARIEST thing I have ever done in my entire life. Someone described it to me elsewhere best, it is like looking out over a cliff and seeing water way below. You know in your heart you are going to jump, but you don't know if there are rocks at the bottom or if it is even deep enough. I also had to consider our friends and what this would do to their relationship. Again not an easy thing to do.

 

I think this is absolutely true. Although Mr/Mrs Van are swingers and their friends, while not swingers, are certainly Lifestyle-aware for lack of a better term, I don't think the path forward must lie in some sort of swinging or polyamory solution. In fact, insisting on looking for an answer there could very likely make things worse.

 

Love you guys and I just had to quote this for the term mostly. I 100% agree with the term and actually I would look back to a thread on here from a few years ago where it was debated that being in the lifestyle was/could be more of a mindset than the activity, but anyway again a different topic for a different day... I agree that looking at swinging now or at all could be dangerous, which is why everyone understands that stuff has been shelved, maybe for good. First thing to do is start rebuilding my trust with MrsVan and start addressing how we manage the friendship going forward. Like it or not,things have changed in our group, only time will tell if it is for good or for bad.

 

I'm just a hick Okie, Van, and I can't say I've had any experience with Polyamory, but it seems to me that you have two choices ...

 

Oh Alura, we have gotten to know each other over the years through this board and your shtick of "I am just the guy from the sticks that don't know nothing" is so funny. Your posts on any subject on this board have always been insightful and I have always enjoyed reading your posts. Your life experiences that you share and your wisdom are priceless and this board is so much better for having you here! I do love the shtick though my friend, I use it often myself.

 

The "no unsupervised visits" thing says loudly and clearly to me that he is afraid of what would happen if you were alone with his wife. Sexually or emotionally or both, he feels threatened enough that he has to be there whenever you're with her. This is not a good sign. Maybe he'll get over it, but if he doesn't then he is basically saying "she's mine and you're not going to have any part of her".

 

Well I am not sure if MrsVan said this anywhere and I am getting tired of flipping back and forth and searching to be honest, but it has come out that this was a joke from my GF. Sort of ill timed on her part and she swears that when she sent the message she indicated it was a joke. She may very well have, at the time I was in the middle of talking to MrsVan about this subject and I wasn't really paying attention to messages. So the husband is very fine with what is going on. He chuckled when my GF told him about my feelings for her and her feelings towards me. She thought he wasn't taking her seriously, but he explained that he knew she was serious and he wasn't surprised. He understood how this could happen and he is fine.

 

On that note, I have to diverge before my last item and just say something that I have said to MrsVan a couple of times and that I have said just recently to my GF. This couple absolutely amazes me, both of them. They have taken so much shit from us (mostly me) and they have stuck with us. Not only have they stuck with us, but they have just taking these things in stride and continued to work with us on "fixing" them. For a couple that is only, as CplnuSwing puts it "LIfestyle-friendly", they sure have their house in order and their communication skills with each other and with us are just flat out amazing. I think many people search all their lives to find friends like this, and most never succeed, inside the lifestyle or out. I know that I myself have given out the same advice that most have given me over the past year or so regarding this couple. Run, run away as fast as you can, this is going to turn out bad, there is no way this is going to work. You can not take friends and make them swingers. I myself have said this montra over and over to people here as well. If we had done that, we would have lost some truly amazing people in our lives and I know that I speak for MrsVan as well when I say that our lives truly are that much better for having them in it. They are as much family to us now as they are friends. I know that this case is very unusual and I still would not recommend this path for most people. Most couples do not have the level of communication and committment that is required to make this work. I am not even sure yet that we do, but we are trying. It is a work in progress and I feel very confident that it is going to work out.

 

To Mrs. Van....Between all lines and regardless of what others have said. Mr. Van needs to decide who is more important. If it is you, and I hope it is because we have been on the board long enough to have a feeling of who or what type of people you two are. Those that are saying to Mr. Van to go with his feelings. To try to work it out so he can have his cake and eat it too, are not considering your feelings. You obviously do not want that. This must be heartbreaking for you and is bullshit. In this case it has to be one or the other and I don't feel Mr.Van in realizing that or is oblivious to what this is doing to you.

 

To Mr.Van. So who is more important? Your wife or your hormone driven other? What you are doing is not fair to the woman you married. Don't you realize how you must be making her feel? Of course you do! But in a way I hope you don't because if you do, then your being extremely selfish and not much of a man to man up and drop the other. Sure it will be hard . But you are only thin]king of yourself. Plain and simple, period. Put the shoe on the other foot. If it would hurt you extremely then you know what to do. I have no respect for someone who would put the woman they are supposedly still in love with through this. Regardless of your excuses. Hormones are powerful. True love is fore ever-remember that. So cave in to the hormones running through your brain and you will end up miserable. If what you say is true about your feelings for wife, there is only one thing to do-drop the other and stay a mile away regardless of the friendship situation. Get some balls and do the right thing.

 

Oh where to begin my friend. I have really enjoyed your posts over the years and while I could not disagree more with your comments here, I want you to know that I still very much appreciate your input. I said it earlier in this thread, when a person comes to a public forum to discuss a problem, they are going to get every kind of feedback, some of which they are going to strongly disagree with. I started to respond to you directly yesterday and after writing my post I set the laptop aside so that I could calm down and relax before actually posting it. I am so very glad that I did. Just my typing out of my response was cleansing.

 

As to your specific comments though, firstly I am quite sure that my balls are still attached right where the Gods put them. I am pretty sure that the shear act of telling my wife openly and honestly that I do love my GF and risking losing everything that I have worked for this past decade plus, indicates that my balls are just fine thank you.

 

Who is more important? I am guessing this question really must have been a rhetorical question and as such I won't bother answering this one. For if you really need this question answered then you have not been following along very well and I don't think answering it will further your knowledge. You say I am being selfish and I need to man up and drop my GF. I see that, I get that and if this was posted in a different forum, under a different title by a different man I might even go along with that comment. This was purposefully posted in the correct forum dealing with issues where someone loves more than one person. It can happen, you think it can't happen to you or your spouse? Keep your head in the sand then my friend, but don't bitch when the coyote take a huge chunk out of your ass because you didn't see him coming. I think most people would agree that nobody in their right mind would choose to allow this to happen on purpose. You have not held you wife while she has cried herself to sleep over this. You have not had your wife lay on your chest sobbing and know that you are the cause of all that pain. Being a man is much more than just doing what is easy. Being a man is doing things that you know are going to be tough. I have absolutely no problems with you disagreeing with my issues and even with you stating your opinions, but as I said earlier, if you put yourself on a public forum you too must expect that someone will say stuff you dislike.

 

With that said I do still truly appreciate your input here. Everyone has been so very honest and helpful. While we may not get the answers we need from this thread, and I never expected to anyways, just posting and reading has been extremely helpful to both MrsVan and myself. I can only hope that my GF will actually join and respond and share some of her insight, but just having her read it would also be fine. Sorry this one got so long, I will try to keep up better in the future.

 

-Van

[Coupleerotic22 1,419]

Interesting reply. I must admit I read it quickly, as I am in rush to get out the door. But I have noticed a major shift.

 

You seem more inclined to figure out how to make a poly situation work for you and your GF, than how to make your marriage work for you and your wife. Forgive me if that is a stretch or incorrect, but it is how it appears to me on the surface.

 

If I am not mistaken this is the first time you have defined the other women as your GF. I see that as a significant difference and a telling statement as to where your head it at. After reading what slevin/LikeMInds wrote, I was thinking they were correct. But this seems to be more than heightened feelings and pent up frustration and sexual desire.

 

GF seems to define an ongoing relationship, as in one you seem to wish to continue.

 

Yes we all want our cake and eat it too, but the cake, your wife in this case, has to be willing. She does not seem to be willing to settle for this situation.

 

You said you took "who is more important" as a rhetorical question. Perhaps it was the wrong question. Perhaps it should have been what is more important, achieving your perfect idea state or keeping your spousal relationship in tact.

 

I have much more racing around my head, but need to run.

[VanHlebar 187]

You seem more inclined to figure out how to make a poly situation work for you and your GF, than how to make your marriage work for you and your wife. Forgive me if that is a stretch or incorrect, but it is how it appears to me on the surface.

 

If I am not mistaken this is the first time you have defined the other women as your GF. I see that as a significant difference and a telling statement as to where your head it at.

 

Sorry I forget which thread I am in at times and how I have referenced her. There hasn't been any shift in how I reference her, she has been referenced between all four of us as my GF and I as her BF for a very very long time and on my other thread/forum I called her my GF right from the get go. Also GF is much easier to type than constantly typing "the other wife" a few dozen times in a post.

 

I had lunch today with MrsVan and we where discussing my response briefly. I explained to her that after I posted it and then re-read it, that even to me it sounded very defensive. She has already done a great job answering most of the direct questions so I did not feel a need to restate what she said. I was then left with responding to various folks comments. For that I apologize if I did come off as defensive.

 

I am well aware of where MrsVan is at today. This seems to be changing daily and will probably continue to change as time passes and she works through her own emotions. I don't remember if it was said yet, but I have said to MrsVan and to my GF, that I would, if everyone felt it was required, either temporarily or permanently, stop all association with my GF. That would be ALL, it would be too painful to attempt to remain friends and still see her every so often but not be able to message her, email her, call her or the like. I admitted that it would be very difficult and yes it would be like ending any other relationship, and there would be a period of time, call it a morning period I guess, that I would need to get through. Just like any other relationship that ends, eventually the feelings would subside, I realize that. I have also said that is NOT what I want, but if my wife said it MUST happen, then it MUST happen. My marriage and my wife are my number one priority.

 

What I just don't get is why attempting to work things out with this couple MUST mean that I am not putting MrsVan first. If MrsVan did not also want to work this out, then this topic would be over and there would be no room for discussion. Fact is, MrsVan does want to work this out in some manner, we just are not sure what that manner is going to be yet for all of us.

 

GF seems to define an ongoing relationship, as in one you seem to wish to continue.

 

This is extremely accurate and I have not tried to hide this position from anyone in our group. If it has appeared in this thread that I have tried to hide this, I apologize and that was purely an over sight. While I do want to maintain my relationship, I do NOT wish to maintain my relationship with my GF to the ruin of my marriage OR to the ruin of MrsVan's friendship with her best friend/my GF. Their happiness and friendship mean more to me than my relationship with my GF. So while it would be difficult to end, if at the end of the day that is what is decided, I will go with it. This thread was started in an attempt to first keep that from happening, as at the present time, not a single person in this group of 4 people want to see that happen. At least not yet anyways.

 

I look forward to hearing more and I am always willing to clarify or answer what I can. If my situation can help anyone else in the future by reading this then great, but if not, just writing and reading is very helpful to me personally.

 

-Van

[Coupleerotic22 1,419]

No need to apologize. It is clear from the shift in tone and tenor from post to post you are struggling. It is also difficult sometimes, as a reader, to understand a situation in so much flux. You and MrsVan and GF & GFSO (lol) are conversing more often and in more detail than can be conveyed in these post, and the situation is likely to shift frequently.

 

I guess my bottom line thought it this, just like swinging, all four people in this need to be on the same page for poly to work. If one is even uncertain, then it is a powder keg waiting for a spark.

 

What I am seeing is, at least one party, MrsVan, has zero desire to maintain a poly relationship. But life is fluid, she may be, or already has, come to the conclusion that it might work. But that is certainly not what I got from her post. Thus my confusion with you last post. Both of your last post seem to show a divergent view, not convergent, but as I said, this situation is in flux.

[gatorvol64 216]

I would argue and I have said this to MrsVan already, and she sort of agreed, we have basically been living in this type of arrangement for the past year and half or more. Poly does not have to be all four members of a group having emotions for each other. It also does not have to have any sexual relationship involved to be called poly.

-Van

 

Well, I have to say that you are correct about this. Poly is different things to different people. And each relationship a poly person has does not have to be the same. Poly is what you want it to be. What each person in a relationship agrees it is or can be.

 

Vol

[VanHlebar 187]

So I had a head slap moment happen back on Wednesday that I hadn't really have the time to fully process until this weekend. I finally had my chance to meet with my GF and we got to really clear the air between us as well and finally I think all 4 of us at least are on the same page and trying to move in a positive direction now.

 

The head slap moment had occurred to MrsVan, GF and myself all at different times. Mine happened Wednesday night while I was watching GF's little one while her and MrsVan had their talk. The little one was sitting up on my lap and we where watching some cartoons together when it dawned on me that this is NOT just about the four of us. We have watched their little one grow up from the very day she was born and their little one is like another child of ours. It hit me that if this all goes wrong, we may never ever get to see this little one ever again. Add to that, we have become very close with GF's entire family. We have met and always make time to visit with her mom/dad and siblings when they come into town to visit. Then on our side all of our children have become very close to GF and her husband and their little one. So it just really came crashing into me that night, at that very moment that this would become extremely difficult to explain to so many people if it failed.

 

I say this just to reinforce the fact that while I understand the normal advice given on some many posts of cutting losses and moving on as it is the best thing to do. I even agree with that advice more often than not myself. For anyone who may read this thread in the future because they find themselves in a similar situation, think about the entire situation. This was one part of the equation that never ever dawned on me until it was to late. Thank goodness it has/is working itself out and I am pretty confident that this will not be the case, but before you decide to come out with something like this, realize that the ramifications of it may very well effect so many other people that you never even considered. Just a random thought regarding our situation that I wanted to share for others benefit in the future.

 

-Van