New here and very troubled...How do I do this?

[Big Rock 173]

I'm a 30 year old Male and I've been dating a woman 27 years old. We've both been married before. I have never been into the swinging lifestyle, but have never condemned it, either. I believe in "live and let live". Untill 1 week ago, I didn't think my GF had been a swinger, either. I was called away for a series of business conferences and meetings, and told my gf that I would be gone until Sunday. The conference ended early and I flew home, hoping to surprise my GF with some flowers and maybe a night out to celebrate my homecoming and as thanks for being such a wonderful Girl. You can gather the rest. I drove to her house and there were cars everywhere, walked in and there were 8 -9 people with drinks, either nude or in their underwear watching my GF. A guy (her ex husband) was "doing", her from behind and she (GF) was "going down ", on another, older woman. I tried to leave without being noticed, but her EX saw me and called my name. Everyone seemed to be having a good time, but I don't think I have ever felt so betrayed in my life. She has tried a dozen times each day to talk to me, but I just don't want to hear her excuses. I've listened to her messages and she swears her love and that this was her final party, prior to our getting engaged, and that she would have told me about her past swinging, before we became engaged. I do remember there was a cake and champagne and a sign that said "congratulations, Sarah". But, IDK, how can I trust her or believe she truly loves me, after seeing her like this. Could she ever be faithful? I thought I would come to the swingers forum to see if any of you could help me out, and if maybe you've had a similar experience. I think that you guys and gals wwould know a lot more about this than I do. Thanks

[SW_PA_Couple 4,024]

It makes me sad to read this. Before I would lend any advice I would have to ask; how did you feel about your relationship before you walked into this party? The answer to this would direct you as to whether or not you would want to save the relationship. Your wife's behaviour, by the way, and not to put just a small point on it, is not swinging. And if any of the people at this party were cognizant her situation, they are similarly not swingers -- enablers, if we must apply a word.

 

I hope you are able to gain something from the information you find here.

 

~Michael

[VANudistcpl 109]

This is not a good way to start a relationship or be introduced into swinging. I agree with SW_PA_Couple by saying that you have to look at how you felt about your relationship before walking in on the party. With us I was very up front with Mrs VANudist and told her up front what I did and where I went. For us this worked and now she wishes that we would have started back then instead of waiting.

 

Good luck and you should get some helpful information here.

[Learning 160]

I too am sad to read this post. Heart goes out to you and the confusion that you are experiencing right now. What I've encountered in the lifestyle is that it's totally based on honesty. She has not been honest with you at all. She should have been upfront with her past with you and not wait until the engagement. So you have to ask yourself, can we move past this? Is this something I potentially want in my life? Good luck and please check back in.

[LFM2 1,482]

I'll add that swinging also requires total respect for your partner. Just like a normal everyday vanilla marriage, it requires honesty and respect.

 

I'm very sad that you're going through this and Michael is right -- this is not a swinging situation. It's downright cheating to be honest and the other people there, including her ex-husband should have known better if they knew she was in a relationship.

 

I guess it depends too on what she's told her ex and her friends. Did she say it was OK with you if she played while you were gone? I don't know....

 

I think she can truly love you and still be in this situation. I know I love Dave more than anyone else in this world, yet we both find it fun to play with others. We always go home with each other and nobody or anything can change that.

 

I know that this has to be hard for you because some people find it extremely hard to wrap their heads around the swinging lifestyle. I have a daughter that just can't understand why we do what we do, but since we're happy, it's a "whatever works for you" thing. She's also a "live and let live" believer.

 

I do think that this relationship can be salvaged, but it's going to take a lot of work, time, communication and honesty. I can't say we've ever been in this kind of situation, and we wouldn't want to be. We got to where we are by loving each other unconditionally and a lot of honesty, respect and great communication.

[lizandtom 512]

Bigrock, you have more than enough right to be pissed off, mad as hell, and unforgiving!

 

As SW, Van, Learning and LFM have pointed out, swinging is about open and honest communication!

 

Put into context, she either had to have had your blessing to participate in ANY activity involving so much as flirting and higher. Secondly if this was a surprise party for her and she did not know it was going to occur [although it was at her place so doubtful], then it was up to her to 'just say no' to anything more than a simple bachelorette party with cake and tea.

 

Can you trust her you ask? I say that she likes the lifestyle too much to abstain from it, just going by human nature. When things are good for you two she'll probably be fine, but when there are rough patches, the lifestyle could very well be her 'tonic' to get her through it.

 

Not knowing more than what you've written, one of two things has to be chosen by you; a. either you are going to have to join the lifestyle way of doing things, which means you have to judge your insecurities and jealousies to see whether you're cut out for it, or b. you will have to break it off with her.

 

If she kept being a swinger from you so far into your relationship which is completely and utterly wrong to start with, then it is unlikely you will get her to change. One shouldn't have to change their partner; they should accept them the way they are. In your case she didn't give you one iota about who she really is. That's bad.

[lustylearning 705]

Can she abstain? Sure, if she chooses to. I think the questions should be more along the lines of: why did she hide the lifestyle from you? why did she choose to indulge? should you trust her again? Given that scenario, I think most of us would walk away and not look back, not because of the sex, but because of the lack of knowledge, honesty, and respect in the relationship.

[bi4me2 93]

(him)

 

Have to agree with most of the others here, this doesn't fall into the swinging category it's plain old cheating.

 

Her lack of honesty with you from the get go is whats bothering every one. A marriage that isn't 100% honest is a marriage that's going to find trouble sooner or later. She should have been up front and honest with you from the beginning of your 'serious' relationship.

 

If it had been me I would have walked out and never looked back.

 

Sad that people feel they have to hide who they really are, especially from ones they swear they love.

 

Sorry to hear about your situation, best of luck in whatever you decide to do.

[Alura 2,774]

Your girlfriend must have known that she would have to level with you eventually about her swinging past. That she didn't, tells me that she was afraid of losing you if she told you the truth.

 

It's possible the party was not planned and your girlfriend "went with the flow" as she was used to doing in the past. In any case, the party itself is not important; nor is the sex-play she was engaged in. What is important is that y'all have failed to establish the trust in communication necessary for a great marriage, not to mention swinging.

 

As my ol' Pappy used to say, "Shouldadones don't count." Obviously, y'all cannot go back and create that communication from the beginning. Therefore, you can only establish it now. So here's my suggestion:

 

Y'all need to agree that neither will ever become angry at any question that is asked, that y'all will always do your best to answer that question completely and honestly, and that you both will put aside prejudices to understand the others' feelings. If that's not an agreement y'all can make, the two of you need to look for other partners for life. If it is not only possible but eagerly anticipated, prepare yourselves for a wonderful marriage.

 

Alura

[lizandtom 512]

Y'all need to agree that neither will ever become angry at any question that is asked, that y'all will always do your best to answer that question completely and honestly, and that you both will put aside prejudices to understand the others' feelings. If that's not an agreement y'all can make, the two of you need to look for other partners for life. Alura

 

You don't think that's a dollar short and a day late? In my book actions truly do speak louder than words. I mean it's not like a gradual flirt in an office leading to drinks, leading to a motel... This was the EX husband f'ing her, her going down on someone else simultaneously, and a group watching nonetheless. And this poor soul had NO clue this was ever part of her life! That's pretty big in my book.

[socolais 696]

So here's my suggestion:

 

Y'all need to agree that neither will ever become angry at any question that is asked, that y'all will always do your best to answer that question completely and honestly, and that you both will put aside prejudices to understand the others' feelings. If that's not an agreement y'all can make, the two of you need to look for other partners for life. If it is not only possible but eagerly anticipated, prepare yourselves for a wonderful marriage.

 

Alura

 

I believe it is overwhelmingly unlikely that you'll get a better piece of advise than that. I think the exact agreement is not the part that's so important - the attitude and emotions that foster the agreement is what's really important. Write that on the bathroom mirror and read it every day until the concept becomes automatic to you (both).

[The Fuse 1,012]

Like others have said, we want to make very clear that she was cheating, not swinging. Swinging is when both partners are aware of and happy with what is happening. Going behind someone's back is cheating.

 

It doesn't seem like she had much respect for your feelings or any boundaries that you may have thought were in place, implied or explicitly. Think about whether you want to marry someone who would act with such blatant disregard for your wishes.

 

It is possible for people to change, but I would take much of what she says with a grain of salt until and unless she earns your trust back.

 

Good luck, whatever you decide. I hope to see updates to this thread from you.

[Sir Dude 15]

I can't tell you what to do but I would run for the hills.

[slevin 1,374]

How long were you dating before this? Had you already proposed to her prior to this party?

[it'sso 198]

The ball is in your court, Big Rock. Once the two of you agreed to become "one", she should have leveled with you, then. This may well have still constituted your being the 'last to know", but I'm sure it wouldn't have been as trumatic as finding out the way you did.

I always assumed that ANY woman I chose to have a relationship had her own past, much the same as I. However, I would have expected the past to remain there once we agreed to marry.

my opinion only

[Chicup 41]

Part of me wants to say the usual....

 

"Dear Penthouse Letters"

 

But I can see where this could happen.

 

Big Rock, one thing about swinging for a while is that sex isn't casual sex, its casual period. Casual sex means no strings attached, while casual in this case would be like watching the football game. Its still fun, intense, etc, but its more like a game.

 

You become desensitized to sex, its simply not a big deal to you, and it can be completely detached from love and jealousy. Its one of the better parts about swinging in that you don't have those insecurities and you know where your relationship is not simply based on sex.

 

The problem though is that while shes desensitized to it, she doesn't think you are. So she meets this guy she really likes, then loves, etc, but shes terrified if she tells him about what she does he will thinks shes a slut, and leave. This is not an unreasonable fear, because if the man is still in jealousy mode, thats exactly what he will think.

 

So she doesn't tell you about her past, afraid of your reaction to it, yet she doesn't think its a big deal either, and she likes her friends shes made.

 

So she has one last 'fling' almost equivalent to a bacheloret party, doing what they casually do, which is have sex, not worried about your feelings not out of callousness but almost out of a sense of superiority. SHE knows its not a big deal, and she still loves you, and its not like she hasn't done it 100 times already. Maybe she thinks in time she will bring you to her way of thinking.

 

Now this is not to excuse her behavior, its to explain it. What she did was wrong even to us swingers, and if I were one of her friends at her 'last fling' I'd have been uncomfortable knowing you didn't know about it. Even though my wife and I have been swingers, I'd be rather upset if I came home to see her getting tagged teamed and she never said anything to me about it.

 

As to what to do, I think you have two choices.

 

If this lifestyle really interests you, and you can look past her behavior, it might be worth talking to her about getting back together.

 

If it doesn't, I'd most likely bail. The reason being that obviously she doesn't want to leave the lifestyle, and even if she says she will, I think there will be long term conflict, not to mention thats a lot of stress on a young marriage.

[fun4Ds 1,098]

First of all, Welcome to the Swingers Board, Big Rock. Although, you might not like me for what I'm about to ask or say, I'm not a heartless person and can totally understand If what you say is true. My advice for you at this point is cancel this engagement. WE have had friends as well as relatives, in failed relationships. Although we are long term partners, I can assure you we are no strangers to the rain in life. We have a member here, VegasLee who has said more than once "there are two sides to the story, and then there is the truth" about relationships. Each time although that sounds harsh I can say with my experience, He's Right. That being said, may I ask a few questions for clarity ?

 

I'm a 30 year old Male and I've been dating a woman 27 years old.

How long have you two been dating each other ?

We've both been married before.

Had each of you dated others since your prior marriages, or did you two meet each other on the rebound, from those prior marriages ?

 

I have never been into the swinging lifestyle, but have never condemned it, either. I believe in "live and let live"

Live and let live, is a good philosophy, but so is kill or be killed or don't wear your heart on your sleeve.(OK, the last one I had to look up myself, I heard it from LikeMinds another distinguished member) In fact, I worried it might be me, once...

 

The thing is, I hear you saying you understand the lifestyle enough to make a personal judgment about it. How did that come about, and how long have you known about swinging ? It had to come from somewhere in your life...

 

Untill 1 week ago, I didn't think my GF had been a swinger, either.

So you thought about this or had some discussion with her ? This doesn't add up to me. You were ready to get engaged to someone you had so much you didn't know about her ? Please forgive me if I'm wrong, I'll gladly be called the fucktard here but I just cant understand this. Could you explain ?

 

I was called away for a series of business conferences and meetings, and told my gf that I would be gone until Sunday. The conference ended early and I flew home, hoping to surprise my GF with some flowers and maybe a night out to celebrate my homecoming and as thanks for being such a wonderful Girl. You can gather the rest.

I can understand being called at a moments notice, for business. But I cant gather the rest. Usually my wife worries about me. I call throughout my travels, my arrival, as well as my return home. She loves me enough to want that, I care enough to even call when I'm half way home.... If I wanted to pull a surprise visit, I would still contact Someone to make sure my surprise was going to pan out. I'm wondering why you did this, in this way.

 

I drove to her house and there were cars everywhere, walked in and there were 8 -9 people with drinks, either nude or in their underwear watching my GF. A guy (her ex husband) was "doing", her from behind and she (GF) was "going down ", on another, older woman.I tried to leave without being noticed, but her EX saw me and called my name. Everyone seemed to be having a good time, but I don't think I have ever felt so betrayed in my life.

Her ex husband doing her from behind ? I cant imagine that...I know many women, come on ? Not impossible, but you planning on an engagement of which she knows and the two of them being this involved behind your back ? A group of swingers in on it as well ? There is something really big missing here in this story. Either that, or you didn't want to see something right in front of your eyes. And that I can understand more so than this many people fucking with your head and heart.

 

She has tried a dozen times each day to talk to me, but I just don't want to hear her excuses. I've listened to her messages and she swears her love and that this was her final party, prior to our getting engaged, and that she would have told me about her past swinging, before we became engaged.

Her Excuses ??? There is a big difference between excuses and reasons. The former is from someone who accuses or is lying, the later is from someone who is being honest or can listen. Are you sure she has excuses or are does she have valid, reasons ? (Think about what I've said for a moment, Its really important in a relationship) I'm inclined to think you aren't the type to listen to anything but what you want to hear at this point and I think she tried to tell you somehow, but maybe you weren't listening ? There are those who will tell you what you want to hear in life, and then there are those that will tell you what you need to hear. The one's we should love, can do both, equally, for our own good.

 

I do remember there was a cake and champagne and a sign that said "congratulations, Sarah". But, IDK, how can I trust her or believe she truly loves me, after seeing her like this.

The bigger question is, can you protect your heart, without crushing hers ? Neither of those are an easy choice....

 

Could she ever be faithful?

We don't know her, please don't ask us to judge someone we have never met nor heard. Everyone deserves to be heard, we have heard you even as painful as it sounds....

 

I thought I would come to the swingers forum to see if any of you could help me out, and if maybe you've had a similar experience. I think that you guys and gals wwould know a lot more about this than I do.

Yes, many of us do have swinging experience's as well as life's experiences, but could you let your GF come to the board and share her side of things ? Its not fair to the swingers we might know in a similar situation not to, now. It not fair to us its not fair to your GF or her friends (the swingers involved) and its not fair to my friends here. Worst of all, its not fair to yourself. In fact, this might be the perfect place to be heard by all in this matter

 

You can ask my wife, Mrsfun or those that know me. Before I jump on a bus I want to know where we are going....

 

Thanks

I hope some day you have a reason to thank me, but I can understand if its not today. We truly wish you happiness and understanding.

 

fun4ds

[Maybe_Someday 68]

Big Rock, Welcome. IMO, you've come to the right place for advice.

 

While not a swinger at this time I can say the biggest thing I've learned from this forum is communication is everything.

 

Yes you were wronged. She fucked up. She failed to trust you and communicate with you. Was she afraid you'd not understand? It's quite possible, but she should have talked with you even if it was just one last fling.

 

Ultimately the ball's in your court. if you're not communicating with her the relationship is over. If you wish to communicate with her you both have to understand that things might come out that are challenging to hear. But you need to communicate... with honesty if the relationship is going to work.

 

Best wishes, and I hope you find advice you can use here.

[LFM2 1,482]

Mr. LFM here, Chicup I think you hit the nail on the head with this one. Holly and I were discussing this earlier this morning what would we do if we came home to the same scenario. It is cheating on her part, but he needs to talk this out with her if they really do want to make their relationship work, to me it sounds like he is ignoring her (not answering her messages and not returning her calls), which to me is the wrong approach. I am sure he is feeling shame ,hurt and disgust, for anyone who has fell in love with someone only to be hit in the stomach with a bowling ball finding out that sex is something she thinks of as casual and not something that is meant for the one you supposedly love is a really hard concept.

It took Holly and I twenty years of marriage just to start to get to where we are in the swinging lifestyle and for some one to be slapped in the face basically with the shock of seeing your to be fiancee being pleasured by her ex and pleasuring and older woman at the same time, wholly shit talk about a brain meltdown . I really feel for this guy, they may salvage some sort of a relationship out of this thing , but I doubt swinging will ever be an option for them, to me the trust will never be there and personally if they do play as a couple it will be what I call grudge fucking, fucking someone to spite the other and as all real couples know this would lead to a destructive relationship. Sorry but I feel this relationship is pretty much done, they may stay friends or acquaintances, but to me the real trust will never be there. I am sure there are going to be people who disagree with me but that is my take on the matter.

[Big Rock 173]

First off, I would like to truly thank all of you for replying and offering me your insights. They really have been helpful to me , while I attempt to process this issue. Some of you have asked for more background. We've been dating for over 9 months, she says she has met two or three Guys, since her divorce and had a short-term relationship with one. I've been divorced for about 3 years and have had a 1/2 dozen or so sexual "flings", but nothing lasting more than 2-3 months. We met at her place of work (bank) actually before we were divorced. I thought she was friendly and very pretty and Yes, maybe I flirted a little, but nothing more. She tells me that the moment she saw me, she was "knocked out", and had fantacized about me for months. IDK, if this is true or not. After we became (or at least I thought) exclusive, we had the talk about sex and our past. I told her of a couple of FMF threesomes I had in college and that I had been with a number of women. She told me that she had been in 5 or 6 relationships, but never mentioned swinging, at all. So that much, at least, is a lie. She is on the phone , now. I'll talk later.

[Big Rock 173]

You have to understand that this is very difficult for me to discuss with any of my friends or family. The vast majority would automatically condemn her as a sl*t, and would condemn the lifestyle as vile, neither of which, I believe to be true. The only real issues for me are trust and communication issues. I know that I'm very good sexually, and have been told this by past lovers and also my ex wife, who wanted to continue our sexual relationship on a FWB basis. If she had told me about her past swinging, I would , at least, have tried to understand it, and who knows, maybe I would become more involved. I don't see it as a permanent activity, but for occasional fun and to add excitement, it may be worthwhile, IDK. I will say that I'm very surprised at the honesty of the people , who were at the "party". I have had most of them come to me or phone me and apologize for that night, and that they had thought that I was comfortable with it. They have told her Ex that he is no longer welcome, and said that they are considering doing that to my GF, too. They don't condone cheating , in any form. She asked me , a few minutes ago, if we could meet and talk, and that she really wants to show, like "chicup", said that it was fear alone, that kept her from 'coming clean", and that she really intended that this was her final party and she truly wants sex to be between just us two. Would you posters believe her? Or is this just blowing smoke up my a**. I said that she could come over tomorrow night and we could get everything out in the open, but that if I even suspected she was lying, it would be over for good. I do like her a lot, and except for this, would say that I loved her, but not now, and maybe not ever, IDK. This has been a tough lesson to learn. :(:(:

[LFM2 1,482]

Big Rock, we don't condone cheating, either.

 

I wish you well with your talk with her tomorrow. The only thing you can do is talk to her and see what happens. You know her the best and only you two know the depth of your relationship.

 

If you're willing, please let us know how the talk went.

 

Good Luck.

 

Holly

[bi4me2 93]

You have to understand that this is very difficult for me to discuss with any of my friends or family. The vast majority would automatically condemn her as a sl*t, and would condemn the lifestyle as vile, neither of which, I believe to be true. The only real issues for me are trust and communication issues. I know that I'm very good sexually, and have been told this by past lovers and also my ex wife, who wanted to continue our sexual relationship on a FWB basis. If she had told me about her past swinging, I would , at least, have tried to understand it, and who knows, maybe I would become more involved.

 

(him)

 

I have highlighted a few parts of your post and they ALL go back to 100% honesty.

 

If she can't be 100% honest then there is a problem. Swinging starts there and she didn't have the confidence in you to be 100% honest in many ways. She didn't tell you about her 'previous life' and she didn't tell you about her wanting to swing yet she told you everything else that made you want to marry her. This is so wrong it's not funny.

 

If you can not trust her 100% there is no 'real' love, if for one second you doubt her sincerity or her 'word' you are setting yourself up for failure (in your marriage)

 

If I had to think about (or worry about) anything from her (meaning my wife) the 'deal' would be blown to hell.

 

But, that being said talk to her, but this time she MUST be 100% honest ..... nothing less will do.

[Guest rdy46227]

I seldom comment on this sort of thread, but I've got to say that I feel that you would have problems with her again. Maybe it's because she seems exactly like my sister in law, but here goes my prophetic vision:

 

First, she'll succumb to a sexual attraction even when she's married (to you or someone else), probably within 2 years of the wedding.

 

Second, she won't tell you (or him) about it.

[Big Rock 173]

One thing I have to know. Is it possible for a swinger to stop, and be in an exclusive marriage? To be honest, If I could have all the benefits of marriage AND also have guilt-free sex with other women, I don't know if I could give that up. But , on the other hand, I couldn't be a swinger with young children. When her ex called my name and she knew I was there, she sobbed for the rest of the night, and asked the others to leave. This was told to me by one of the other ladies, who was there. In her E-mails and on the phone, she has continually cried and professed her love, and has said many times that she loves and desires me AND NOBODY else, and that she wants us to be completely exclusive (soul-mates is what she called us) Is this all bullshit? IDK......, this is messing with my mind. I can't sleep for the images in my head. My main concerns are 4 things: 1) her honesty 2) her lack of communication 3) her love and respect for me and 4) her ability to be faithful. She has'nt exactly shown any of this, except the love. On the positve side, she is drop-dead gorgeous, witty, intelligent, affectionate and deeply passionate. Jeezus, this sucks so bad!!!

[Big Rock 173]

But if this "party", was meant to be a "farewell", or as some other poster said, a "batchelorette", party, then why the sex? Why not tell me the truth and then we could both have had a party and she could have invited the other club members, and I could have gotten to know them better? Am I still being lied to? I really, really thought she was the one.

[slevin 1,374]

Yes a swinger can decide to be monogamous after having been a swinger. TheFuse had an excellent reply to another similar question where she pointed out that if her husband wanted her to stop she would without hesitation, but that she'd be bummed as well. Her husband was more important to her than swinging though.

 

I think your girlfriend is probably picking up on the doublestandard you have in your head about sex. While you would be interested in swinging and casual sex, you couldn't do that and have a family. Based on the limited information I've seen from you that dichotomy comes across, I am sure it is flashing in neon lights to her. So she is responding to that; it caused her to keep her swinging secret (aka Chicups excellent reply), to swear she is done with it, to swear she wants no one but you. I suspect the reality is more likely along the lines of what TheFuse had to say.

 

This is really one of two things for you:

 

1. An opportunity

2. The end

 

If you look at this as an opportunity you can use these events as a catalyst for completely opening your communication with her. Put everything on the table and agree that you will listen, try to understand and never get angry about what comes up. Share your thoughts and feelings with her as well. Create an agreement between you to always been completely open.

 

It could be an amazing opportunity.

 

If not, it's probably the end. If you don't communicate openly at this point you're always going to wonder. She is going to try and be the girl she /thinks/ you want (because she loves you), but will likely come to resent that, or miss who she is. Just my take on a likely outcome.

 

Personally I'd sit down and use Aluras great advice to establish complete honesty. I'd use Chicups great advice to understand how things got to be where they are today and her motivations for how things unfolded and TheFuses excellent perspective from the other thread to understand a swingers ability to leave it all behind. If I couldn't do that I'd move on.

 

Good luck.

[Big Rock 173]

Yes a swinger can decide to be monogamous after having been a swinger. TheFuse had an excellent reply to another similar question where she pointed out that if her husband wanted her to stop she would without hesitation, but that she'd be bummed as well. Her husband was more important to her than swinging though.

 

I think your girlfriend is probably picking up on the doublestandard you have in your head about sex. While you would be interested in swinging and casual sex, you couldn't do that and have a family. Based on the limited information I've seen from you that dichotomy comes across, I am sure it is flashing in neon lights to her. So she is responding to that; it caused her to keep her swinging secret (aka Chicups excellent reply), to swear she is done with it, to swear she wants no one but you. I suspect the reality is more likely along the lines of what TheFuse had to say.

 

This is really one of two things for you:

 

1. An opportunity

2. The end

 

If you look at this as an opportunity you can use these events as a catalyst for completely opening your communication with her. Put everything on the table and agree that you will listen, try to understand and never get angry about what comes up. Share your thoughts and feelings with her as well. Create an agreement between you to always been completely open.

 

It could be an amazing opportunity.

 

If not, it's probably the end. If you don't communicate openly at this point you're always going to wonder. She is going to try and be the girl she /thinks/ you want (because she loves you), but will likely come to resent that, or miss who she is. Just my take on a likely outcome.

 

Personally I'd sit down and use Aluras great advice to establish complete honesty. I'd use Chicups great advice to understand how things got to be where they are today and her motivations for how things unfolded and TheFuses excellent perspective from the other thread to understand a swingers ability to leave it all behind. If I couldn't do that I'd move on.

 

Good luck.

Slevin, thanks for your post but I don't necessarily agree with all you have said. I really have no "dichotomy", I just feel that child rearing is tough enough, without any extra dynamics being involved. I also have trouble with your idea that she is "by nature", a swinger, and will likely miss the more exciting world of casual sex. It doesn't work that way. "Once a swinger, always a swinger", has no more validity than "Once a cheater, always a cheater". I may not be a swinger, but I'm not without some experience with sex. I've been with many , many women, and have found that every one was different from every other one. I'm more concerned about this single occurance, than about making value judgements about all swingers, or all "vanillas", for that matter. I really want to get a handle on what she is likely to tell me and if what she says has the ring of truth, or just blowing smoke.

[Swing*8701 887]

Susan here-- This was a sex party, not a swinger (sex) party. The problem is, this was done with planning and intent. Both did not include you being there. It did include her ex's cock inside her. I'm sorry, but do you really celebrate an engagement by fucking the man you divorced ?

 

I have learned to judge people never by their words, yet by their actions. As the saying goes: Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

 

And, as I've seen my fair share of relationship cheating with 'vanilla' people. What you learn is only a small percentage of what actually went on.

[Chicup 41]

Slevin, thanks for your post but I don't necessarily agree with all you have said. I really have no "dichotomy", I just feel that child rearing is tough enough, without any extra dynamics being involved.

 

I have kids, the only difficult part about kids and swinging is finding a babysitter you can use past 2am. Kids are not difficult to raise, and swinging doesn't take up that much time. Might be one night out every other month. You still have time for everything from soccer games to helping with homework.

 

I also have trouble with your idea that she is "by nature", a swinger, and will likely miss the more exciting world of casual sex. It doesn't work that way. "Once a swinger, always a swinger", has no more validity than "Once a cheater, always a cheater". I may not be a swinger, but I'm not without some experience with sex. I've been with many , many women, and have found that every one was different from every other one. I'm more concerned about this single occurance, than about making value judgements about all swingers, or all "vanillas", for that matter. I really want to get a handle on what she is likely to tell me and if what she says has the ring of truth, or just blowing smoke.

 

Once a swinger not always a swinger, but you WILL still have the swinger mindset. For example for multiple reasons we have not officially been 'swingers' for over a year, but our outlook is still the same, we view sex the same way, we view each other the same way. PRIOR to being a swinger, out mindsets were very very different, and I was actually quite protective and jealous, and early in our relationship VERY jealous. I can't return to that anymore as I'm done with it, its not me, I can't even relate to it.

 

She might never swing again, but she will still have that mindset, its not all bad, but it is not 'vanilla' either.

[slowride 27]

Swinging, cheating or something else, whatever you want to call it one thing is for certain you both have communication problems in your relationship. If you love her and want to be with her you can. It is very hard to face something like this and not easy to live with. The easy way out is to let your hurt turn to anger and end the relationship. Its much harder to stay in a relationship when there is adultery or infidelity. There is no turning back in such a relationship and trust will be an issue for a long time, if not for the entire relationship, especially for the the one 'cheated on'. If you two stay together you both must communicate, she must understand your how you are hurting and give you all the time you need to deal with your emotions. Again it's hard but if you love her and want to be with her you can.

[Big Rock 173]

After talking with her, tonight, I have decided to end the relationship. She SEEMS devestated, but I'm sure she will recover, with the help and support of her Ex's dick and any other old lady she can eat out. My mood has changed a lot over the past few days, but I can't get over the anger and hurt, of her betrayal, no matter how many times she says she loves me. She swore , tonight that I am the ONLY man she desires and wants, but for how long? When will she want to get back with the "club", and hide it from me? I want a wife and lover, and I want to be a husband and lover, not a jailer. If I can't trust her, then it is worth nothing to me. When she left, she said that she will prove her honesty and love, although I really don't see how. I said that we would talk Tuesday night, again, but I'm tempted to just blow her off and forget the whole thing. I don't see anything she could do that could change my mind. this is really fucked up.

[Big Rock 173]

I really, really, want to thank all of you who have posted on my thread. Your words and honesty have been one of the good things to come from this mess, and I would recommend this site to anyone, who has relationship problems, not just for swingers, alone. You've been a huge help!!!!!! THANKS A LOT!!!...........Rock.

[lizandtom 512]

Rock, in your shoes I would have done the same thing. I have been in your shoes way way way back, and not involving swinging, but with a home town girlfriend who swore I was the only one. Then I came home unexpectedly one weekend from college, couldn't reach her on the phone, but went to a party, and lo and behold there she was not only at the party, but was spending the weekend at this guys parents house while they were away.

 

Game over. I felt pissed, angry, hatred for her, and it took time to get over, but I did. Then I met a girl who was perfect for me, and we're still together 25 years later like it was day one. Funny thing is, I forgave the former girlfriend and she started hanging out with both of us, and told me she loved me and wanted me again, but I new she could never be my lifelong mate because of the lack of trust, so it was kind of a twisted 'sweet revenge.'

 

Good luck to you. Wait for the right pitch; it will come along. Tom.

[Big Rock 173]

Rock, in your shoes I would have done the same thing. I have been in your shoes way way way back, and not involving swinging, but with a home town girlfriend who swore I was the only one. Then I came home unexpectedly one weekend from college, couldn't reach her on the phone, but went to a party, and lo and behold there she was not only at the party, but was spending the weekend at this guys parents house while they were away.

 

Game over. I felt pissed, angry, hatred for her, and it took time to get over, but I did. Then I met a girl who was perfect for me, and we're still together 25 years later like it was day one. Funny thing is, I forgave the former girlfriend and she started hanging out with both of us, and told me she loved me and wanted me again, but I new she could never be my lifelong mate because of the lack of trust, so it was kind of a twisted 'sweet revenge.'

 

Good luck to you. Wait for the right pitch; it will come along. Tom.

The thing is, To be a swinger, you have to trust your partner will not develope emotional ties with another. Casual sex means just that, casual. Along with the trust issue, it really pissed me off that it was her EX. If she wanted to fuck him, why did they split up? She has told me he was a lousy lover and husband, at least a dozen times. I asked her about it and she said that she wouldn't have had sex with any other of the guys there, but that it was a "goodbye", fuck, because she knew that they wouldn't be doing it any more, since we were getting engaged.

what kind of BS is this? BTW, LizandTom, do you think a swinger can become a non-swinger and be happy ? I still think that this is Bull.

[Big Rock 173]

I would like to thank the poster, who recommended my post. It's a nice gesture, and I appreciate it.

[Chicup 41]

BTW, LizandTom, do you think a swinger can become a non-swinger and be happy ? I still think that this is Bull.

 

I'm not sure which part you think is bull myself here.

 

Yes a swinger can become a non-swinger and be happy. Most swingers become non-swingers at some point and are still happy.

 

To me your issue has nothing to do with swinging and a lot to do with trust, and thats what she violated.

 

Without knowing you better, knowing her full side of the story, we can't say for sure 'you should break up' but based on what you have said I don't blame you for doing so.

 

Even AS a swinger if I came home to find what you did, I'd be furious with my wife. We don't have that kind of relationship and it would be a massive violation of trust.

[Alura 2,774]

Hey, Big Rock!

 

Thank you for the nice words about the Board Members and their willingness to help. Without a doubt, they are a great group of folks!

 

I just wanted to make one final input on this thread. I'm not sure you are dealing with a "violation of trust" because I'm not sure y'all ever discussed what limitations y'all might live by. It seems you are acting on an assumed limitation, not one that had been agreed upon.

 

Still, it all boils down to one thing, if I may paraphrase Henry Ford: "If you think you can, [deal with it] or if you think you can't, you're right."

 

For that reason, I think you've made the right choice. Pity... It seems your (now ex-) girlfriend really loves you. That's hard to find.

 

I hope you've learned a bit more about communication which will serve you well in future relationships. Please hang around and share thoughts with us.

 

Alura

[padoc 1,703]

Sorry pal, she was not swinging, she was cheating. There can be no excuse for not discussing her past and her desires with you as you built your relationship. Be glad that you discovered her lack of honesty before you got engaged. Our advise is simple....run, run far, run fast, and don't look back. That woman is just bad news.

[bbarnsworth 2,640]

I just wanted to make one final input on this thread. I'm not sure you are dealing with a "violation of trust" because I'm not sure y'all ever discussed what limitations y'all might live by. It seems you are acting on an assumed limitation, not one that had been agreed upon.

 

Hmm. Two more y'alls.

 

More seriously...society has an expectation that many dating couples live up to. If you've been dating for a while, there's an assumption of exclusivity. Violate it, even if it was never agreed on, and there's a strong sense of betrayal (really, for both). We all know that of course. What is interesting to me is how few couples ever actually discuss this, discuss what their commitment to each other is, what their relationship means, etc. It's all just taken for granted.

 

Big Rock, I think you did the right thing. Your (now ex-) girlfriend knew what she was doing was wrong, before, during, and after doing it. Nobody forced her into doing anything. She did it of her own free will. She did it because she could, because you were out of town, because she thought she could get away with it.

 

And the excuse about one last blast before she committed to you? Sure. One more drunken rut before going into rehab. Sorry, it rings VERY hollow.

 

Trust isn't something easily come by. I've been in a long term relationship where trust was broken fairly early on (about the same amount of time as this relationship of yours with this woman). We spent several more years working at it, trying to rebuild that trust. It never happened. That's not to say that it can't, but it's very, very difficult.

 

As you've noted, you've been with many women. The right woman for you is out there, and you will find her.

 

Also, in reply to an earlier post by you; can a swinger go back to being a non-swinger (and be happy about it). The answer is an emphatic yes. Swinging is a lot of fun. It's a wonderful shared experience for couples. But, it's not the basis of a relationship, it's not an addiction, a desperate need, or anything else like that. You might as well ask if a roller coaster riding person can live a life without roller coasters, or . The answer is yes, of course.

 

Now, there may be other reasons why a person wants to cheat, desires sex with others, etc. But, those reasons don't have to have anything to do with being a swinger. What your ex-girlfriend did was diametrically opposite of swinging. What she did was ugly, disgusting and vile. Swinging is the absolute opposite of those things.

[Big Rock 173]

Hmm. Two more y'alls.

 

More seriously...society has an expectation that many dating couples live up to. If you've been dating for a while, there's an assumption of exclusivity. Violate it, even if it was never agreed on, and there's a strong sense of betrayal (really, for both). We all know that of course. What is interesting to me is how few couples ever actually discuss this, discuss what their commitment to each other is, what their relationship means, etc. It's all just taken for granted.

 

Big Rock, I think you did the right thing. Your (now ex-) girlfriend knew what she was doing was wrong, before, during, and after doing it. Nobody forced her into doing anything. She did it of her own free will. She did it because she could, because you were out of town, because she thought she could get away with it.

 

And the excuse about one last blast before she committed to you? Sure. One more drunken rut before going into rehab. Sorry, it rings VERY hollow.

 

Trust isn't something easily come by. I've been in a long term relationship where trust was broken fairly early on (about the same amount of time as this relationship of yours with this woman). We spent several more years working at it, trying to rebuild that trust. It never happened. That's not to say that it can't, but it's very, very difficult.

 

As you've noted, you've been with many women. The right woman for you is out there, and you will find her.

 

Also, in reply to an earlier post by you; can a swinger go back to being a non-swinger (and be happy about it). The answer is an emphatic yes. Swinging is a lot of fun. It's a wonderful shared experience for couples. But, it's not the basis of a relationship, it's not an addiction, a desperate need, or anything else like that. You might as well ask if a roller coaster riding person can live a life without roller coasters, or . The answer is yes, of course.

 

Now, there may be other reasons why a person wants to cheat, desires sex with others, etc. But, those reasons don't have to have anything to do with being a swinger. What your ex-girlfriend did was diametrically opposite of swinging. What she did was ugly, disgusting and vile. Swinging is the absolute opposite of those things.

The main problem, I see, is that I really liked her before this happened. I've met her family and most of her friends (obviously not all) and universally they have told me what a wonderful, honest, beautiful , straight-shooter she is, and that I'm a lucky SOB because she loves me so much. Her Mom once told me that her daughter told her that she loves me way more than her Ex, and she herself told me that sex with me was the greatest she had ever had. And having, unfortunately seen him at work, I KNOW that I'm more "gifted", in the junk area, than he is, so how can this be? How can she be two different people? Is she the best thing since sliced bread, or is she the lying, cheating , HO. Goddammit, this is so frustrating.

[Alura 2,774]

Hmm. Two more y'alls.

 

There really have been thousands, B. I think you just missed them. I am a Native-born Hick Okie.

 

Alura

[Alura 2,774]

The main problem, I see, is that I really liked her before this happened. I've met her family and most of her friends (obviously not all) and universally they have told me what a wonderful, honest, beautiful , straight-shooter she is, and that I'm a lucky SOB because she loves me so much. Her Mom once told me that her daughter told her that she loves me way more than her Ex, and she herself told me that sex with me was the greatest she had ever had. And having, unfortunately seen him at work, I KNOW that I'm more "gifted", in the junk area, than he is, so how can this be? How can she be two different people? Is she the best thing since sliced bread, or is she the lying, cheating , HO. Goddammit, this is so frustrating.

 

I can't imagine it being anything other than frustrating, Big Rock. That's what makes the whole thing so sad. It must be just as frustrating for her. It seems she's poured out everything in an effort to make up for her mistake but you don't seem to be buying it.

 

Perhaps you shouldn't be buying it. I don't know. But you still seem quite unsure if you're doing the right thing.

 

She is the best thing since "sliced bread" IF y'all can talk your way past this incident and use it as a tool to develop a level of communication y'all might never have otherwise reached. If not, well, perhaps you can use this learning experience to find better communication with the next lady who enters your life.

 

Alura

[lizandtom 512]

BTW, LizandTom, do you think a swinger can become a non-swinger and be happy ? I still think that this is Bull.

 

Big, I'm pulling from my first post on here; all would probably be ok between you two and she could probably abstain from everyone else, until you have have some disagreements, and go through some rough patches.

 

Physiologically sex releases drugs in the brain that are actually like dope; the most intense sexual pleasures release more of it so that can be quite a powerful 'tonic.' The reason I bring this up, is that when you guys hit a rough patch, her 'tonic' to get her through it may very well be a reversion to her lifestyle ways.

 

Can swingers abstain from 'out of marriage' sex eventually? By one of 3 ways; a. they've had a great run and it's not a thrill anymore, b. aged out, c. tried it and it wasn't for them.

 

As far as the rest of my thoughts, just see what bbarnsworth wrote; they echo mine almost exactly.

 

To sum up: she had a whole secret life she never told you about, her supposed soul mate and best friend. Far worse, she purposefully went outside of your bonds of trust knowing you were away and hoping to hell you wouldn't find out.

 

If her mother and other vanilla's are wondering why you broke up with her, what have you told them? Just curious if you've tipped them off, if they already knew, or if you've left them guessing...

[Big Rock 173]

Big, I'm pulling from my first post on here; all would probably be ok between you two and she could probably abstain from everyone else, until you have have some disagreements, and go through some rough patches.

 

Physiologically sex releases drugs in the brain that are actually like dope; the most intense sexual pleasures release more of it so that can be quite a powerful 'tonic.' The reason I bring this up, is that when you guys hit a rough patch, her 'tonic' to get her through it may very well be a reversion to her lifestyle ways.

 

Can swingers abstain from 'out of marriage' sex eventually? By one of 3 ways; a. they've had a great run and it's not a thrill anymore, b. aged out, c. tried it and it wasn't for them.

 

As far as the rest of my thoughts, just see what bbarnsworth wrote; they echo mine almost exactly.

 

To sum up: she had a whole secret life she never told you about, her supposed soul mate and best friend. Far worse, she purposefully went outside of your bonds of trust knowing you were away and hoping to hell you wouldn't find out.

 

If her mother and other vanilla's are wondering why you broke up with her, what have you told them? Just curious if you've tipped them off, if they already knew, or if you've left them guessing...

I haven't told anyone, yet. I told her that we could talk again, Tuesday night and I would have a decision for her, and she is mobilizing the whole family and friends and club members to convince me to give her another chance. I've probably had 15 or 20 e-mails and at least that many calls, telling me how lucky I should feel to have her ( I don't feel too fucking lucky, right now) , how this was a "goodbye", party, how this was a stupid mistake, how She would have told me befor announcing our engagement, ETC. As part of her "proof", that she can be trusted, her boss at the bank called to say she is the most honest employee he has ever had. God knows what she said to him to get him to do that? She has also offered to let me talk to her therapist (she began going to therapy during her divorce) to prove again, her love and devotion. This is becoming a fucking Circus, and I DON'T LIKE THE CIRCUS!!!!!! I hate drama, hate it with a passion.

[lizandtom 512]

Right now, they all must think there must have been something insignificant that you should just turn a blind eye to, and that you're over reacting to, and that love should conquer all. BS. This is way too significant to just forgive and move on; the implications, as you have figured out very quickly, could very well repeat going forward.

 

Big, I think you hold all the cards right now, and are in the position to act level headed and be responsible as to what's happened. I also think you now have the upper hand to force whether your girlfriend really can come clean and be truthful even in the most dire of circumstances, which would be a good test.

 

As so many people are telling you to get back with her, I suggest that you tell those closest to her (excluding bosses and people that could harm her financially) to please go back and ask her why you broke up with her, and then to come back and relay the reason [to see if she's being truthful with them], and if she has told them the real reason and they can still cajole you into getting back with her, then you'll consider it.

 

i.e: " why don't you ask ____ why I broke up with her. If you can come back and honestly tell me I should be with her, then I will consider it."

 

That is a bit convoluted but I think it would achieve two things; a. it would show that you are a gentleman and aren't one to go saying anything bad about her, and b. to see if she's willing to come out of her safety zone to keep you; if she can actually grow a pair, and her 'little secret' is out, then perhaps the thrill of doing something naughty behind everyones back [including yours] will subside, and maybe you guys can work through it.

 

Why should you be the one to bare the whole burden of this thing? You didn't do anything wrong.

[slevin 1,374]

I haven't told anyone, yet. I told her that we could talk again, Tuesday night and I would have a decision for her, and she is mobilizing the whole family and friends and club members to convince me to give her another chance. I've probably had 15 or 20 e-mails and at least that many calls, telling me how lucky I should feel to have her ( I don't feel too fucking lucky, right now) , how this was a "goodbye", party, how this was a stupid mistake, how She would have told me befor announcing our engagement, ETC. As part of her "proof", that she can be trusted, her boss at the bank called to say she is the most honest employee he has ever had. God knows what she said to him to get him to do that? She has also offered to let me talk to her therapist (she began going to therapy during her divorce) to prove again, her love and devotion. This is becoming a fucking Circus, and I DON'T LIKE THE CIRCUS!!!!!! I hate drama, hate it with a passion.

 

This rings hollow to me. You seem to be really enjoying the circus and I bet if you were honest with yourself you'd be able to recognize that. If you didn't like the drama you wouldn't be holding court like this; you wouldn't be leaving her hanging for a few days thinking it's over while still thinking there might be a chance.

 

I still see a lot of double standards in your views on love and sex. I think that is causing a lot of her actions in being untruthful. That doesn't excuse her behaviour at all, what she did isn't cool. It might frame the behaviour and help to show a path to whether you can work things out or not. I still think you have two choices: open communication to attempt to work things out, or break up. They are both fairly cut and dried options with clear paths. You haven't chosen either and you're leaving her hanging. I still feel my last post on this is completely valid, though I understand why you may not feel that way.

 

Good luck with your situation and I hope it all works out for you.

[Guest rdy46227]

I suppose you can give things a trial period, if you want to.

 

But I'd set up ground rules for an open relationship where everything is known in advance, no surprises.

 

Assume that (the orgy) is going to happen again sometime, and make sure that it's packaged so that you know where you stand in advance and afterward.

 

So if you're not willing to let her roam, or she isn't willing to tell you about her travels, I unfortunately see history repeating itself if you stay together.

 

 

(I sometimes wonder how things would have been different for my SIL's two marriages and several long term relationships, if she had been open about her drives and activities. One marriage failed by alcoholism, the rest of her relationships were destroyed when her then SO figured out her cheating.

 

She could stick to her promise for about 18 months, and then started trying to get something on the side without endangering her then current LTR, which eventually blew up. One partner of hers took her back after much pleading and promising, only to get bitten again. )

[slevin 1,374]

i.e: " why don't you ask ____ why I broke up with her. If you can come back and honestly tell me I should be with her, then I will consider it."

 

That is a bit convoluted but I think it would achieve two things; a. it would show that you are a gentleman and aren't one to go saying anything bad about her, and b. to see if she's willing to come out of her safety zone to keep you; if she can actually grow a pair, and her 'little secret' is out, then perhaps the thrill of doing something naughty behind everyones back [including yours] will subside, and maybe you guys can work through it.

 

Why should you be the one to bare the whole burden of this thing? You didn't do anything wrong.

 

A gentleman would thank them for their concern and obvious love for their friend. Then he wouldn't imply anything further. I think Big is enjoying all this attention and drama though. If he wasn't the drama would be cut off at the knees.

[Chicup 41]

And now we are into an episode of the twilight zone.

 

"Hey could you do me a favor and call my boyfriend and tell him what a great gal I am, please?"