Sex with Teens

[eurotrash 15]

My latest girlfriend told me when she was 16, she was going out with a 30-yr old guy and having sex with him. I had an ex who was going out with a 21-yr old when she was 15, and they were having sex, too.

 

My first reaction is to be open-minded about what happened, but later and deep down, I think it's just wrong. I don't blame the girls, who say they were in love with the men, but what kind of guys are these?

 

Maybe I'm just being too conservative? Are these kinds relationships normal but I just wasn't aware of them? Is it a French thing? (Both girls are French with Asian heritage.)

 

If the topic comes up again, should I speak my mind, like, "The guy you were going out with should be in prison for raping you."???

 

What do you think? Is it ok to hit on a teen, then have sex with him/her once you've seduced her/him?

[Zoe&Wash 93]

Yeah, I don't see why not. Most jails and prisons are a lot safer then they're made out to be in popular culture. So there's virtually no downside in engaging in a relationship with an individual who is incapable of granting consent, and who's willingness to engage in these acts will be ruled irrelevant in court. Best of all, the list run by most states tracks people better than Facebook and it's for life.

 

Was she raped by pervs? Probably not. Were they wrong for engaging in sex with a willing (and possibly clueless) teenager? Yeah, pretty much.

 

It's simple math. One 36 year old is twice as good as a pair of 18 year olds. And a 45 year old beats a pile of 15 year olds every day of the week.

[Alura 2,773]

For six-thousand years of recorded history, and probably more than that, teens have been having sex and people have been using drugs and alcohol, while churches and governments have been trying to stop both. They've never been successful and is not likely to stop soon, no matter what laws are passed.

 

Some time ago ... I'm thinking twenty to thirty years ... a study was done that suggested the age of consent for sex be pegged at twelve years of age. While most folks disagreed with that, the point was made that children, by that age, knew the difference between right and wrong. It was also suggested that a difference be considered between consensual sex and violent rape. I would think most everyone would agree with that.

 

I don't know what the age of consent should be but I do feel that parents have failed if a child arrives at age twelve and doesn't know enough about sex to ward off the advances of older perverts. As far as older perverts, themselves, they need mental health treatment. Imprisonment doesn't help; in fact, seems to make them worse.

 

All this is written "in my opinion" only. Personally, I think inexperienced teens would be boring lovers, despite their young bodies and hormone-driven enthusiasm.

[bbarnsworth 2,636]

It's simple math. One 36 year old is twice as good as a pair of 18 year olds. And a 45 year old beats a pile of 15 year olds every day of the week.

 

And a five some is a straight (or maybe not so straight...) flush?

 

Sorry, couldn't resist

[two4youinswva 3,068]

If the topic comes up again, should I speak my mind, like, "The guy you were going out with should be in prison for raping you."???

 

If you're trying to create a dialog about this particular issue, I wouldn't phrase it like this. She may become defensive about the subject, and shut down further communication. I would go with a more open ended question, something along the lines of, "Looking back, how do you feel about the age difference between the two of you?"

 

If you just want to share your opinion about the situation with no ongoing dialog, then speak your mind.

[slevin 1,374]

I don't know about France, but here in Canada it is legal for a 16 year old to date anyone they want. So me being 34 dating a 16 year old is perfectly legal. I wouldn't do it, but it's legal. Up until a year or so ago the legal age of consent for sexual activity was 14.

 

Personally, 18 is my lower limit, but even that would be an exception.

[Zoe&Wash 93]

bbarnsworth said:

And a five some is a straight (or maybe not so straight...) flush?

 

Well, let's say you had a twenty year old, an eighteen year old and a pair of 19 year old Siamese twins conjoined at the liver - I think that would beat five of any kind.

[campgirl2in1 74]

My wife was very active sexually when a teen, some of her partners (felons according to the law) were in their 20's. I find her tales extremely hot but more because it was her not because of her age. Though it does add a bit of naughtyness to it.

 

All that being said... I would not go near a chic that is under 30. The reasons are too many to list.

[JustAskJulie 2,595]

When I was 16-18 I dated several guys who were much older (ranging from 24 to 40). I was also out of HS and many times the guys had no idea how old I was (other than that I was probably 18). At that age I thought it was cool to be dating a much older guy.

 

Now that I'm older I look back and wonder about the guys I was dating. Granted I ended up marrying one of them (first husband) when I was 20 (he was 28). When we first dated I was 16 and he was 24 but again he didn't know how old I actually was until we'd been out several times. I think in those cases it's a little different than say if the guy knows the girl is still in HS... in that case I really do wonder about the guy.

[dr_pepper 25]

Personally, I have never had sex with any woman under 21, and most of the women I have know since, didn't care for older guys. (more than 4 or 5 years older)

 

Now, I have an email friend who knows personally a couple women who are now in their late 30's, but who grew up in Northern Canada, and they said they started having sex at age 12 and with men of all ages. And that they were not coerced in anyway. They say too that they were not affected by all of this and enjoyed all they did.

 

I read a few years back that in England, years ago, the age of sexual consent for women was 12, or if she was known to be promiscuous.

 

Like has been said earlier. "Older" women are a lot more fun!

[Swing*8701 887]

Ed here-- First, on the twelve year old girls and not being coerced. They were twelve, they do not have the ability to make sexual choices. Age, ignorance and immaturity are why we have some legal limits. Yet, as with a 16 year old and a 40 year man, just because it's legal does not make it right. Another example, in a different area, would be Finance. Twelve year olds cannot sign for a loan, even if they have assets. Again, we accept a certain minimum age for awareness to make sexual and financial choices.

 

I have a niece and we were house sitting while her parents had to be away for a month and a new guy was picking her up for a date. I opened the door and it was a 25 year old guy. I took one look at this and said to him,"Let's go for a walk first." I asked what was wrong with him that as a grown man that he was trolling for a 16 year old girl. I explained that I viewed him as a predator, he was going home immediately and if he had a shred of decency he would 'man' up and meet women his own age and not children. I also explained that I had the ability to make certain a man like him ended up in prison. He left and never contacted my niece again.

 

My niece screamed ,"I hate you," for a good hour. I told her, in this case, for these reasons, may it be a long and healthy hate. Well, she's 21 now and two weeks ago she was over and thanked me for looking out for her then. She has a different perspective now, one only time could provide. Oh, that guy ? He's actually in prison for raping a minor, which is why my niece raised the subject five years later.

 

While what happened to your girlfriend was wrong, you cannot unring a bell. You may be able to say that at 16 her perspective may not have been adult enough to see what was truly going on: relationships with sexual opportunists. Yet, it will be doubtful you can get her to accept the real truth. From her point of view, she was in love and that is a difficult point of view to alter.

[dr_pepper 25]

Ed here-- First, on the twelve year old girls and not being coerced. They were twelve, they do not have the ability to make sexual choices. Age, ignorance and immaturity are why we have some legal limits. Yet, as with a 16 year old and a 40 year man, just because it's legal does not make it right. Another example, in a different area, would be Finance. Twelve year olds cannot sign for a loan, even if they have assets. Again, we accept a certain minimum age for awareness to make sexual and financial choices.

 

I sure understand what you are saying. I gather that with the ladies I mentioned they were in a remote area, with little to do, and that this was enjoyed by all concerned. I know that doesn't always make it right, but it seemed to work for them.

 

 

I have a niece and we were house sitting while her parents had to be away for a month and a new guy was picking her up for a date. I opened the door and it was a 25 year old guy. I took one look at this and said to him,"Let's go for a walk first." I asked what was wrong with him that as a grown man that he was trolling for a 16 year old girl. I explained that I viewed him as a predator, he was going home immediately and if he had a shred of decency he would 'man' up and meet women his own age and not children. I also explained that I had the ability to make certain a man like him ended up in prison. He left and never contacted my niece again.

 

Fortunalely for your niece you were able to read this guy perfectly. Years ago, I very inadvertently stumbled into something similar. I had just relocated to OKC started working there. The fellow who was training me was a little older than my 37, and he knew I was recently divorced and interested in meeting some women, if the occasion arose.

Well, he knew two eligible ladies who were friends, and said that one was probably to rough for me, but the other I might like. He gave me her phone number and I called and talked with her. We set a date for dinner and a movie, and on the evening of the date I went to her house and was very shocked when I got there. Her mother and I would have gotten along great, but this girl was just 18. When we got in the car, I immediately turned to her and said that I don't molest young ladies, and that we will have a nice dinner and movie and that is ALL. She looked much relived, and we did have a nice evening. A day or so later, I was at the hospital she worked in, and I stopped by her office to say hi and thank her for the nice evening. She appreciated that, and then told me that there was a lady she worked with "who was more my age", and this lady would like for me to call her. This I did, and we talked for an hour and a half, and set up a lunch date. Turned out this was the lady who my friend thought was too "rough" for me. Worked out she wasn't, we were married for a long time. I sure let my friend know about the screw up and he felt really bad. His wife worked with both of these women.

 

 

My niece screamed ,"I hate you," for a good hour. I told her, in this case, for these reasons, may it be a long and healthy hate. Well, she's 21 now and two weeks ago she was over and thanked me for looking out for her then. She has a different perspective now, one only time could provide. Oh, that guy ? He's actually in prison for raping a minor, which is why my niece raised the subject five years later.

 

Wow! Great call... I am afraid that this is all too prevalent, where there actually might be a few times it works for the couple.

 

While what happened to your girlfriend was wrong, you cannot unring a bell. You may be able to say that at 16 her perspective may not have been adult enough to see what was truly going on: relationships with sexual opportunists. Yet, it will be doubtful you can get her to accept the real truth. From her point of view, she was in love and that is a difficult point of view to alter.

 

Very true...

[LFM2 1,482]

Like Julie, I thought it was so cool to date an older guy.

 

My relationship happened quite by accident though. I was friends with his sister and I didn't even know he existed until I went to her house one day after school. He was 21 and I was 15. We started out as friends, and maybe I acted more mature than my age -- I don't know what he thought, I never asked him; but, our friendship grew into more of an sexual and emotional attraction. We dated for over a year and my parents were cautious of him, but never forbade me from dating him. We were sexually active after about 4 months of dating. Yes, he took my virginity, but nothing I regret. I thought he hung the moon. We broke up about the end of my junior year of high school. I still think of him often and hope he's well. His younger sister (She is my age) is one my LS friends.

 

We didn't expect our friendship to take off in a relationship. It just happened. Was it wrong? Not in my opinion. I learned a lot from it.

[Coupleerotic22 1,419]

"Let's go for a walk first." I asked what was wrong with him that as a grown man that he was trolling for a 16 year old girl. I explained that I viewed him as a predator, he was going home immediately and if he had a shred of decency he would 'man' up and meet women his own age and not children. I also explained that I had the ability to make certain a man like him ended up in prison. He left and never contacted my niece again.

 

I like you! Although I am not sure I could have been as polite and level headed.

[eurotrash 15]

Edison Carter said:

Ed here-- First, on the twelve year old girls and not being coerced. They were twelve, they do not have the ability to make sexual choices. Age, ignorance and immaturity are why we have some legal limits. Yet, as with a 16 year old and a 40 year man, just because it's legal does not make it right. Another example, in a different area, would be Finance. Twelve year olds cannot sign for a loan, even if they have assets. Again, we accept a certain minimum age for awareness to make sexual and financial choices.

 

I have a niece and we were house sitting while her parents had to be away for a month and a new guy was picking her up for a date. I opened the door and it was a 25 year old guy. I took one look at this and said to him,"Let's go for a walk first." I asked what was wrong with him that as a grown man that he was trolling for a 16 year old girl. I explained that I viewed him as a predator, he was going home immediately and if he had a shred of decency he would 'man' up and meet women his own age and not children. I also explained that I had the ability to make certain a man like him ended up in prison. He left and never contacted my niece again.

 

My niece screamed ,"I hate you," for a good hour. I told her, in this case, for these reasons, may it be a long and healthy hate. Well, she's 21 now and two weeks ago she was over and thanked me for looking out for her then. She has a different perspective now, one only time could provide. Oh, that guy ? He's actually in prison for raping a minor, which is why my niece raised the subject five years later.

 

While what happened to your girlfriend was wrong, you cannot unring a bell. You may be able to say that at 16 her perspective may not have been adult enough to see what was truly going on: relationships with sexual opportunists. Yet, it will be doubtful you can get her to accept the real truth. From her point of view, she was in love and that is a difficult point of view to alter.

Thanks, Edison. I really appreciate your thoughts, as well as everyone who posted a serious response to my question(s). I haven't brought up the subject again with my girlfriend.

 

[suniedazed 16]

I was 17 when I met my husband and he was 27 but it worked out great we've been together for 20 yrs. Now on the other hand, we have a daughter that is in a few years going to be a teen and I would have to say her father would kill a man that old going after her.

[Just Passing By 140]

Boy , this is ironic, seeing as how I was never interested in someone because of their youth , and even in my 20s was attracted to women in mid 30s. Once upon a time , friends tried to point me to a 19 yo. Now intrest either way, but hit off and dated her Mom instead. All that said :

 

When 24 , a young lady invited me to take her out to celebrate her 18 th Bday . Eventually had 3yr relationship.

 

Best friend , when 25yo , met young lady at a party. She was 17 , about to graduate HS shortly. Started dating imeadately, in due course married , still going strong twentysome yrs later.

 

Going back in time, Granddad was mid 20s when met proverbial 15yo farmer's daughter. After she turned 16 they married. Until she passed apr 53yrs later.

 

Of course putting on hypoctite hat , Daughter is now 14yo . In our various "talks" with her made point that while sex isn't evil or disgusting, it is one of the many things in life best handled once mature. Preferably over 18, if not over 21 . Not yet interested in dating , but I'm on borrowed time.

[Lascivious L&L 866]

Alura, it's so nice to hear unemotional reason. Of course the emotions on sex, especially underage sex, can be incredible.

 

Few people realize that for most of human evolution, old was 30 and not many lived till then or beyond. Sex began at or before puberty, which was older than our healthy lifestyles today, but still in the young teens.

 

Through the middle ages you were a spinster at 20. Sex and marriage happened for the most part long before then. Arranged marriages could happen very early.

 

Even in the 1800's and 1900's sex and marriage took place on average earlier than today. Of course we hear all about teens today having sex at 12 or 13. That was the norm throughout and before recorded history.

 

I think an effective way to reduce teen pregnancy is to teach and encourage teens to masturbate. Just saying no hasn't worked for hundreds of years. Teaching teenaged girls how to give boys a hand job helps enable them to handle sexually pressured situations without getting pregnant and to learn how much of a boy's interest is lost once he's ejaculated.

[dr_pepper 25]

Alura, it's so nice to hear unemotional reason. Of course the emotions on sex, especially underage sex, can be incredible.

 

As always, Al is very wise.

 

I think an effective way to reduce teen pregnancy is to teach and encourage teens to masturbate. Just saying no hasn't worked for hundreds of years. Teaching teenaged girls how to give boys a hand job helps enable them to handle sexually pressured situations without getting pregnant and to learn how much of a boy's interest is lost once he's ejaculated.

 

Education is the key to most things in life, and especially in this area. I think your idea is great, and I might add that giving the OK for a BJ, could be in order too. That would cool down almost any young man in heat. Especially with that being declared as "not sex" by a certain high government official. Both being a sure fire way to stop teen pregnancies.

 

Another thought on masturbation. I have found that doing yourself, while watching your partner doing herself, is an incredible turn on for both.

[ClosetSwinger 112]

I'm pretty open minded but underage people is where I DRAW THE LINE.

 

When you are under the age of 18 you have no idea what life is about. Hell even at 18 I was an idiot.

 

So no I have no attraction to people that are underage, it actually gives me the creeps a little.

[essexcouple 15]

I prefer meeting couples our own age, DH being a typical guy always wants to make friends with the 20's couples because of the sexy pert womens bodies. To be honest, having the body of a 40yo woman who's had 3 kids, I don't really feel comfortable alongsite a perfectly formed 20 year old woman.

 

DH likes the fantasy of a woman in her 20s, I think most men enjoy the thought that a younger girl finds them attractive and that they can still "pull". I've never understood why younger girls want to meet older men, I certainly didn't when I was younger!

[eurotrash 15]

Lascivious L&L said:

Alura, it's so nice to hear unemotional reason. Of course the emotions on sex, especially underage sex, can be incredible.

 

Few people realize that for most of human evolution, old was 30 and not many lived till then or beyond. Sex began at or before puberty, which was older than our healthy lifestyles today, but still in the young teens.

 

Through the middle ages you were a spinster at 20. Sex and marriage happened for the most part long before then. Arranged marriages could happen very early.

 

Even in the 1800's and 1900's sex and marriage took place on average earlier than today. Of course we hear all about teens today having sex at 12 or 13. That was the norm throughout and before recorded history.

 

I think an effective way to reduce teen pregnancy is to teach and encourage teens to masturbate. Just saying no hasn't worked for hundreds of years. Teaching teenaged girls how to give boys a hand job helps enable them to handle sexually pressured situations without getting pregnant and to learn how much of a boy's interest is lost once he's ejaculated.

Although you make interesting points, it doesn't address the question of a 30-year old having sex with a 16-year old. If today were the middle ages, I'd be writing about a 15-year old having sex with a 6-year old, according to you. (Not sure where or how I'd write it though.)

 

I don't think teens having sex among themselves is an issue, although I think that they should have education about sex and safe sex.

 

The other day, my gf berated me for about having a 21-year old ex-gf before her. I'm 40. I kindly reminded her that she was going out with a 30-year old when she was 16. To that, she replied she was very mature for 16. I said that may be true but what kind of a guy trolls for 16-year olds at 30? Besides the fact that she thinks a 40/21 relationship today is not cool just shows how immature she really was at 16. She started laughing when I said that, and we changed the subject.

 

A little later she revealed that the guy found her on Facebook recently and that they've been in contact... they are now "friends." I don't like this at all. A whole other can o' worms

 

[Lascivious L&L 866]

No, Euro, having sex with a female before puberty is an entirely different issue. Not that it didn't happen throughout our history. But this thread is about sex with "underage" females. My point is that underage is a term flexible in age and approbation over the course of history.

 

Recent human history, say since civilization began, is but a tiny fraction of our evolutionary history. That evolutionary history determines much of the drives and desires of humans. Evolution favored procreation, which means women were likely to be impregnated as soon as they were fertile. Men evolved to do that deed. There lies the appeal of females who have reached puberty. Judgment as to the right or wrong is quite recent in human history.

 

Without understanding our evolutionary make up we don't stand a chance at altering the behavior of men seeking "underage" females. Whether it's considered by the current society to be right or wrong, the drive and desire is present in many males. We must recognize that drive in order to deal with it.

[eurotrash 15]

Lascivious L&L said:

No, Euro, having sex with a female before puberty is an entirely different issue. Not that it didn't happen throughout our history. But this thread is about sex with "underage" females. My point is that underage is a term flexible in age and approbation over the course of history.

 

Recent human history, say since civilization began, is but a tiny fraction of our evolutionary history. That evolutionary history determines much of the drives and desires of humans. Evolution favored procreation, which means women were likely to be impregnated as soon as they were fertile. Men evolved to do that deed. There lies the appeal of females who have reached puberty. Judgment as to the right or wrong is quite recent in human history.

 

Without understanding our evolutionary make up we don't stand a chance at altering the behavior of men seeking "underage" females. Whether it's considered by the current society to be right or wrong, the drive and desire is present in many males. We must recognize that drive in order to deal with it.

So, how old do you think the men were in history when they were having sex with what we consider "underage" females? 20 at the oldest? Surely not 30 since they would already be on their deathbeds according to you.

 

[here4thefun69 16]

Ed here-- First, on the twelve year old girls and not being coerced. They were twelve, they do not have the ability to make sexual choices. Age, ignorance and immaturity are why we have some legal limits. Yet, as with a 16 year old and a 40 year man, just because it's legal does not make it right. Another example, in a different area, would be Finance. Twelve year olds cannot sign for a loan, even if they have assets. Again, we accept a certain minimum age for awareness to make sexual and financial choices.

 

I have a niece and we were house sitting while her parents had to be away for a month and a new guy was picking her up for a date. I opened the door and it was a 25 year old guy. I took one look at this and said to him,"Let's go for a walk first." I asked what was wrong with him that as a grown man that he was trolling for a 16 year old girl. I explained that I viewed him as a predator, he was going home immediately and if he had a shred of decency he would 'man' up and meet women his own age and not children. I also explained that I had the ability to make certain a man like him ended up in prison. He left and never contacted my niece again.

 

My niece screamed ,"I hate you," for a good hour. I told her, in this case, for these reasons, may it be a long and healthy hate. Well, she's 21 now and two weeks ago she was over and thanked me for looking out for her then. She has a different perspective now, one only time could provide. Oh, that guy ? He's actually in prison for raping a minor, which is why my niece raised the subject five years later.

 

While what happened to your girlfriend was wrong, you cannot unring a bell. You may be able to say that at 16 her perspective may not have been adult enough to see what was truly going on: relationships with sexual opportunists. Yet, it will be doubtful you can get her to accept the real truth. From her point of view, she was in love and that is a difficult point of view to alter.

I couldn't have said it any better. We have a 12 year old daughter. And I don't care if they make it legal tomorrow for her to consent. It will be over my dead body especially a man who is suppose to be an adult. Call me conservative. say I just am not enlightened say what u will. But she is my responsibility and so is my son and the same goes for him.

[Tadahiko 156]

Let me say first off that *I* first started letting guys fuck me when i was 14...but they were other 14 and 15 yr olds. At that age I never 'dated' [meaning either fucking or just hanging out with] anybody who was anywhere close to 'legal age'.....we were just geeky dweeb kids getting naked with my friends after school. And I can tell you for a fact that i went from 'letting boys fuck me' to ME fucking THEM pretty quickly...I actively sought out sex and I knew exactly what i was doing, so I don't see how that was rape on the guy's part. Now let me ask....did those 8 and 9 grade boys 'rape' me any less than a 30 year old just because they were also underage? I can't see how the age of the guy would have changed my level of consent.

 

All that being said...sexual predators are definitely scary and much more common than I ever knew about growing up. I will definitely whip out mom's 'hell no' card if my teenage daughter ever tries to leave the house alone with a 30 yr old man, no matter if she felt romantically towards him or not. I understand that an adult can influence and manipulate a youngster in ways some kid she knows from study hall probably wouldn't be able to. [tho I am not sure there's always that much difference when it comes to physically overpowering a girl...but I guess that's not what were talking about here.]

 

I've had some long talks to my daughter about being in control of her sexual experiences and I hope our family has taught her by word and example what sort of places not to go and what behaviors she shouldn't find acceptable from a man [pushing her to do something she doesn't want to do may or may not make a guy a rapist, but it certainly makes him an asshole]. She is 16 now and so far has not had intercourse yet which I must say i prefer as a mom, but I can see shes already eager for expressing her sexuality in other ways [both masturbating in private and how she likes to dress, walk, make jokes in public], so I expect she will move on to having sex before too long....and if it is before she's 18 that won't bother me, it is not a magic number. We also have a college-age son and I know he had sex with a girl [woman] who was 5 or 6 years older when he was underage....17, possibly even 16, I'm not sure. Should that woman go to jail, or was there something horrible about that? Let's just say that I knew her pretty well, I knew him even better, and I didn't lose a lot of sleep worrying about what that 'adult' was doing to my 'child'.

 

[rereading this, maybe I sound too cavalier about it. I don't mean to, it is a serious thing. I just know what I was like as a teen and I think 'nobody have sex until your a legal adult' is really unrealistic advice.]

[couplers 4,568]

Hi, this is Petra. The only thing I have to add is that the law in many places sets the age for getting married (and having sex) lower, albeit many times with permission of the parents or a judge, than for simply having sex. I would think, however, that getting married early would screw up one's life more than a simple sexual fling.

[eurotrash 15]

Tadahiko said:

Let me say first off that *I* first started letting guys fuck me when i was 14...but they were other 14 and 15 yr olds. At that age I never 'dated' [meaning either fucking or just hanging out with] anybody who was anywhere close to 'legal age'.....we were just geeky dweeb kids getting naked with my friends after school. And I can tell you for a fact that i went from 'letting boys fuck me' to ME fucking THEM pretty quickly...I actively sought out sex and I knew exactly what i was doing, so I don't see how that was rape on the guy's part. Now let me ask....did those 8 and 9 grade boys 'rape' me any less than a 30 year old just because they were also underage? I can't see how the age of the guy would have changed my level of consent.

 

All that being said...sexual predators are definitely scary and much more common than I ever knew about growing up. I will definitely whip out mom's 'hell no' card if my teenage daughter ever tries to leave the house alone with a 30 yr old man, no matter if she felt romantically towards him or not. I understand that an adult can influence and manipulate a youngster in ways some kid she knows from study hall probably wouldn't be able to. [tho I am not sure there's always that much difference when it comes to physically overpowering a girl...but I guess that's not what were talking about here.]

 

I've had some long talks to my daughter about being in control of her sexual experiences and I hope our family has taught her by word and example what sort of places not to go and what behaviors she shouldn't find acceptable from a man [pushing her to do something she doesn't want to do may or may not make a guy a rapist, but it certainly makes him an asshole]. She is 16 now and so far has not had intercourse yet which I must say i prefer as a mom, but I can see shes already eager for expressing her sexuality in other ways [both masturbating in private and how she likes to dress, walk, make jokes in public], so I expect she will move on to having sex before too long....and if it is before she's 18 that won't bother me, it is not a magic number. We also have a college-age son and I know he had sex with a girl [woman] who was 5 or 6 years older when he was underage....17, possibly even 16, I'm not sure. Should that woman go to jail, or was there something horrible about that? Let's just say that I knew her pretty well, I knew him even better, and I didn't lose a lot of sleep worrying about what that 'adult' was doing to my 'child'.

 

[rereading this, maybe I sound too cavalier about it. I don't mean to, it is a serious thing. I just know what I was like as a teen and I think 'nobody have sex until your a legal adult' is really unrealistic advice.]

Why didn't you have sex with 30-year old men when you were 14 then?

 

Why wouldn't you want your daughter to have sex or even go out with a 30-year old man?

 

[Coupleerotic22 1,419]

I have avoided posting to this thread because even the title creeps me out, and seems inappropriate for a swingers forum. I know what the thread is about, but the title screams pedophile, sorry for my bias, I know that is not how it is meant, nor are people condone that act.

 

As for sex with people much younger. I never had sex with anyone more than a couple of years younger or older than myself until I was in the lifestyle. Asa senior in high school, I did not go after the freshman girls, they were just too young, and most of high school I dated a girl in the class ahead of me.

 

In college I dated college girls. I even avoided the "fountain girls." Outside our athletic dorm was a large fountain and girls used to hang out by it in droves waiting to meet the athletes, they became know as the "fountain girls." Many of those girls were high school girls looking for older guys. The fact that it was difficult to tell the difference between a 15 year old high school student and a 19 year old college student made me want to avoid the fountain girls altogether. It was easy enough to meet college girls in class or at a local club to take the chance.

 

As we get older the gap in age makes less of a difference. I don't blink an eye when I meet a 45 year old married to a 35 year old, or even 35/25 age couple. But a 25 year old with a 15 year old creeps me out. I can understand girls wanting to date older guys, hey women are more mature than men at that age, probably any age for that matter, lol.

 

But as a teenager I think the maturity level could not have been more than 2-3 years difference. I could never understand the guy going after someone so much younger. At best it seems that the guys are just trying to take advantage of girls with less maturity, at worst it smells of a predator.

[djjwp 129]

Ready the flame throwers...

 

I have a sister that was 14 when she had sex with her 19yo bf. They have now been married 34 years, a couple kids who turned out great and now great grandchildren. Western culture is where you see age limits at all so most of the world does not care if their kids get to experience sex young. We try to control and protect our kids and so far I do not see the benefit. Our divorce rate is much higher now then when we did see young woman married to older men who had proved themselves stable and able to take care of them.

 

I don't really want my daughter to play too soon but she will be armed with every bit of information we can give her with no candy coating and the last thing I want is some young, know nothing snot knocking her up and not being able to support his new responsibilities.

 

Note this too. My dad was 10 years older than my mother. A fair relationship until he passed away and she met my step dad who was 20 years older. They had a GREAT relationship. We need to judge a person by who they are not their age or differences.

 

As far as rape goes it is an act of violence and should be judge for what it is. Our jails are full and we need the space for violent criminals not those who got "un"lucky with a teeny bopper. I think I would rather take a nap then waste my time with someone under 25. Let someone else teach them.

[Big Rock 173]

Just because a child CAN have sex, doesn't remotely mean that they SHOULD have sex. Biological maturity and emotional maturity aren't the same and never have been. Just because other cultures allow underage kids to fuck, doesn't make it either right or prudent. An older man or woman , for that matter, who desires sex with an underage person is a sexual predator, pure and simple. A little common sense is what is needed here. Can a 13 or 14 year old girl really give , INFORMED consent? Of course not!

[Alura 2,773]

djjwp said:

 

As far as rape goes it is an act of violence and should be judge for what it is. Our jails are full and we need the space for violent criminals not those who got "un"lucky with a teeny bopper.

 

Over half of our inmates are there for non-violent crimes ... especially women. The worst part is that studies show that imprisonment often turns non-violent "felons" into violent ones, making the situation worse, not better.

 

Really, our prisons are "Universities of Crime." My youngest brother, imprisoned for smoking a joint, was taught to hot-wire cars by other inmates. Fortunately, he was smart enough to not use his new knowledge when he was released.

 

Sexual predators need mental health care, not incarceration.

[Big Rock 173]

Alura said:

Over half of our inmates are there for non-violent crimes ... especially women. The worst part is that studies show that imprisonment often turns non-violent "felons" into violent ones, making the situation worse, not better.

 

Really, our prisons are "Universities of Crime." My youngest brother, imprisoned for smoking a joint, was taught to hot-wire cars by other inmates. Fortunately, he was smart enough to not use his new knowledge when he was released.

 

Sexual predators need mental health care, not incarceration.

I disagree with Alura, most strongly. Sexual predators need BOTH incarceration AND mental health care. The public safety must always take precedence over the rights of a felon, especially with those who prey on the young and defenseless, or those who display violent tendencies.

[Alura 2,773]

Sorry, Rocky, but I'll stick to my guns here. Sexual predators are made far worse by our penal system. Anything else would probably work better but mental health treatment should be used extensively to treat this societal ill. Some offenders would probably need to be in a "secure facility," perhaps permanently. They shouldn't associate with killers, muggers ... it isn't good for the patients or society... they learn too much.

 

Unless you're thinking of life imprisonment, of course, in which each case would be solved permanently. Then again, the death penalty would work as well...

[Big Rock 173]

I do agree that our current system is flawed, badly, but still believe that at the end of the day, public safety should come first. There are too many incidents where sexual predators have received mental care in lieu of incarceration, and the innocent have suffered.

[Lascivious L&L 866]

Our penal system is the quick, sloppy, dirty answer. It doesn't work even for public safety, as most criminals re-offend, often more dangerously than before because of the training they get there.

 

The sexual predator concept is flawed. Most molestors are people in the family or close friends. Many molestors are victims themselves of molestation. The only way to really deal with underage sex is through treatment, treatment of victims so they don't continue the cycle of molestation, and treatment of molestors so they can understand what, how, and why and have a chance to stop.

 

Our prisons are huge monetary drags on society. We can do treatment so much cheaper. First stop imprisioning people for smoking, dealing, or anything to do with pot. That's at least one third of prisoners. Stop pot from clogging our legal system. Deal with drug addiction as a medical matter, not with prisons. Prohibition didn't work for alcohol and doesn't for drugs. Prohibition increases criminality, increases the price of drugs to where addicts have to steal for their habit. Getting rid of drug prohibition gets rid of at least 50% of crime.

 

Then we can use the wasted prison system money for real treatment. And save a few prisons for the real criminals.

[Coupleerotic22 1,419]

Rape is a violent crime. I certainly make a distinction between an 18 yr old having sex with his 16 yr old girl friend (statutory rape) and rapist or pedophiles. But rape, whether forced or coerced, be it an adult, child, or mentally challenged victim, most certainly is a violent crime. Predators look for the weak, the unprepared, the lost and the helpless in order to take advantage of them. As they say no, means no. As for drug charges, they are not even close to being in the same class as a rapist.

 

In most, if not all, jurisdictions, the threat of robbery by force is treated the same as use of force. If you walk into a bank and tell them you have a bomb, give up the money, or tell someone you will kill their family if they testify. No actual violence was done, but the threat was there. Rape is using force, fear or other means to take advantage of someone in a very demeaning a violent way. Prison may not make them better people, it may even educate them on how to be more successful criminals, but it certainly does not make them worse people than when they went in.

[Alura 2,773]

Coupleerotic22 said:

... it certainly does not make them worse people than when they went in.

 

I usually agree with you, Coupleerotic. In this case, however, I must register total and complete disagreement.

[Coupleerotic22 1,419]

Alura said:

I usually agree with you, Coupleerotic. In this case, however, I must register total and complete disagreement.

 

Fair enough, that is what make the world a fun place. If everyone agreed all the time, imagine how boring things would be.

 

But Alura, I am coming from the position that rapping a women or molesting a child is as low as it gets. It is neck and neck with murder and in some cases worse. I can't imagine anything more vile, so how much worse could prison make them. There is just no further down to go.

 

I will concede that prison may make them more efficient at getting away with it, but my solution for that is to lock the door and throw away the key.

 

Admittedly I have two very real experiences that color my thoughts on this subject. In one instance, had I been more alert and thinking, I possibly could have prevented a rape. Everyone tells me it's not my fault, I could not have known, and that hindsight is 20/20, but it still haunts me.

 

In another, a close friend survived being kidnapped, beaten, repeatedly raped for hours, shot and left for dead. She still bares very visible physical scars, and even as far as she has come, she still has some emotional ones as well.

[Lascivious L&L 866]

Coupleerotic, the original topic was sex with teens and dealt with underage teens and older men. Those men can be arrested and thrown into prison. My points about prison deal with those who have sex with underage teens as well as non-violent crimes. It was not about the rape and kidnapping you injected. Most people are in prison for non-violent crimes. Prisons are the worst place for non-violent offenders for they are "universities of crime" and many non-violent offenders come out worse than they went in due to being exposed to not nice violent offenders.

 

Most sexual molestation is non-violent and within families and friends of families. The stranger as sexual predator is not the norm. Many molestors have been molested as children. They need treatment immediately after molestation but instead most hide it. The cycles of molestation can be broken through treatment. Prison only increases it.

 

Truly violent crime like the rape and kidnapping you describe are what prisons should be used for. Even then treatment is important or they rape again when released. The trouble with lock them up and throw the key away is that it raises the bar to convict them and more rapists get away or murder their victims. Lock em up hasn't worked and won't work because it doesn't deal with reality. It's a feel good quick answer and unfortunately real answers aren't quick.

[Alura 2,773]

There is a solution so simple that it amazes me that nobody is advocating it.

 

1. Create a real health care insurance system not based on profit making. Everyone would be covered.

 

2. Tax goods and services that cause people to seek health care. $20.00 per new car sold; 1¢ per bullet sold; 10¢ on a McDonald's burger... The Center for Disease Control in Atlanta has the statistics to decide the rates. People would pay for their treatment before it was needed.

 

3. Legalize "crimes without victims" and care for those who need treatment through the health care system. There are huge underground marketing systems for drugs and prostitution that are tax-free to the workers, simply because the industries are illegal. The amount of revenue which could be recovered is staggering; the national debt could be paid.

 

4. Close half the prisons and release non-violent prisoners. Transfer the excess prison guards to other services, military, customs and immigration, etc. According to a friend who is a Tulsa police detective, crime would drop by as much as 80%, making relocation of police necessary as well.

 

5. Create an agency which would use television advertising (similar to the non-smoking campaign which has been wildly successful) to educate the public on other vices. Fund this also through a tax on alcohol, tobacco, drugs, cell phones (texting while driving), etc.

 

There are probably a thousand other social ills that could be better treated in this way than by imprisonment.

[Coupleerotic22 1,419]

My points about prison deal with those who have sex with underage teens as well as non-violent crimes. It was not about the rape and kidnapping you injected.

 

I did not interject rape into this thread. It was brought up implicitly, explicitly and even by use of the term before I posted about it. Nor did I introduce the distinction between violent and non-violent crimes. I did bring up the kidnapping issue, but only to illustrate why I may have a bias.

 

I maintain that rape and/or molestation are violent crimes, and I am not in the minority on that point.

 

At some age, and it varies person to persons, one gains the capacity to make informed decisions about sex and other issues. But before that time, before they are able to make informed decisions, it is rape.

 

One can certainly argue that the age of consent may or may not be set correctly. And that there are certainly people younger than that 18 that can make mature and informed decisions, but it is not universal.

 

As this thread seems to be heading in political direction to me, given my recent history, I believe it is time for me to retire from this thread, before I get myself banned. In fact a self imposed break may be just what is needed for the sake of sanity.

[Lascivious L&L 866]

Alura, that's a stunning, refreshing, and a wonderful take on solving a bunch of problems with simple, yet radically logical measures. I couldn't agree more. It amazes me that so many serious problems people wring their hands over can be dealt with by simple measures which are radical only because no one dares to stand up to the vested interests involved.

 

Think about decriminalizing non-violent offenses and radically reducing prison populations. The drug war, which never can be won, funds much of the police departments around the country. This would free police to confront truly violent crime, but will reduce the size of police forces as well as their funding. Think of the prison industry, much of it now private, and how they will fight to keep increasing rather than decreasing the size of the prison population. Think of how organized crime will fight tooth and nail to keep their highly inflated illegal profits selling drugs. How many bribes to politicians keep them in the back pocket of prohibition?

 

I love the idea of funding health care through taxes proportionate to the health care costs of products such as tobacco, alcohol, cars, bullets, and a host of other products. I feel the recycling costs of all goods should be included in the price and recycling be universal and paid for when we buy the products. Both would be upfront funding by the causes of the problems.

 

And I agree that health care should be a not for profit endeavor. Most modern societies have taken the profit out of their health care and suffer far less of the problems we have in this country.

[Big Rock 173]

L&L, I disagree most strongly with your statement that most sexual molestation is non-violent. Violent acts may not have actually take place,but threats or other forms of coertion have had to take place, for the molestation to occur, because legally a minor cannot give informed consent. Whether is is in the family or not. If it's a father or other male family member, some form of pressure or coertion is exerted to force or persuade the minor to have sex. It would be the same thing if , instead of minors, we were talking about the mentally incompetent. If the person isn't able to give informed consent, without ANY form of persuasion, threat,coertion, or pressure, then it should be considered and in most states, IS considered a violent crime, even if the minor is a willing participant.

[Lascivious L&L 866]

Big Rock, I recommend the book "The Myth of Trauma" about sexual molestation. Most molestation is not violent and while trust is abused, in most cases the molested child's main reaction at the time is confusion. Molestation of children is usually done by a trusted family member or friend, hence the confusion. They don't understand sex enough to understand fully what has happened. The real trauma comes when they grow old enough to understand that their trust was abused in a profound way. Especially if that abuser is still in their life.

 

To say it's all violence demeans those who have experienced real violence such as violent rape. Violence is not the same as coertion, which is not the same as persuation or pressure. There are degrees. Blanket statements that all are violence does an injustice to those who have felt real violence.

 

I'm sorry to get sidetracked to child molestation when the thread topic is sex with teens. Sex with teens has many different degrees as well.

[Big Rock 173]

Threats and coertion are forms of violence, just like verbal assault is assault, the carrying of a firearm in the commission of a crime (whether the firearm is used or not) is also a violent crime. The law looks at the threat as a form of violence in it's own right. I completely agree that in most cases of child sexual abuse, there is no physical harm done, but the threat and coertion are still violent crimes, IMO.

[eurotrash 15]

Big Rock said:

Threats and coercion are forms of violence, just like verbal assault is assault, the carrying of a firearm in the commission of a crime (whether the firearm is used or not) is also a violent crime. The law looks at the threat as a form of violence in it's own right. I completely agree that in most cases of child sexual abuse, there is no physical harm done, but the threat and coercion are still violent crimes, IMO.

What about between a 30-year old and a 16 year old or a 21-year old and a 15-year old?

 

What if the guy looks up the now adult girl on Facebook? I just think that's weird.

 

[couplers 4,568]

Hi, this is Petra jumping into the fray. The range of reactions on this topic and the strong feelings behind them show what an emotional and difficult topic this is.

 

The first difficulty is defining what we are talking about. A "teenager" covers a lot of territory, from what we would all agree is a child, 13, to an adult, 19. Then the question of who is having sex with that teenager. If it is another 19 year old having sex with a 19 year old, probably no one here has a problem with it. As the teenager is younger, and the person having sex with them is older, however, a line is crossed. But does that line depend soley on the age of the teenager? Does it depend on the age of the person having sex with that teen? If there is an age difference, does it matter which is the male and female, or if it is same sex? What do we do about two 13 years olds having sex? Is it even possible to answer these questions based on objective criteria such as ages, sex of the participants, etc.? Some people are much more mature and others much more vulnerable at a certain age than others.

 

A woman friend a generation older than I who has been my mentor has told me about a relationship she had with an older man that began when she was in high school. She said she had no interest in dating "boys." He was an accomplished intellectual, married and his wife at least knew and may have allowed or encouraged the relationship. She went on to higher education, a career, and is now happily married with children. She has described the relationship to me, which ran through her college years, as the most intense, intellectually and sexually, in her life and essential to her achievements and development. In addition to his wife, her husband knows about the past affair and they still correspond. For other people such a relationship would have been harmful (and maybe it was for her but she is hiding it, I take her at her word, but I don't know). Would she have felt differently if all was the same but it ended badly?

 

So I don't know, it depends on so much, and maybe things we won't even know until the relationship is over. My first reaction when I see "Sex with Teens" is WRONG. But then, I first had intercourse at 17 with a guy in his 20s who is still my bf. Was that wrong?

[Big Rock 173]

I think that a lot of our distaste with this type of situation stems from the idea of incest or date rape, etc. In Eurotrash's opening post, he doesn't say whether or not the two couples are related. Also I find it way more disturbing if a 30 y.o. fucks a 16 y.o. than if a 21 y.o. fucks a 15 y.o. A 14 year difference seems to be worse than a 6 year difference, but maybe that's just me. I feel that the different levels of maturity would border on abuse.

[couplers 4,568]

Big Rock said:

Also I find it way more disturbing if a 30 y.o. fucks a 16 y.o. than if a 21 y.o. fucks a 15 y.o. A 14 year difference seems to be worse than a 6 year difference, but maybe that's just me. I feel that the different levels of maturity would border on abuse.

 

Petra again. I agree with you but also really don't know what to think. I'm bothered by both, and in some ways think that a 30 yo and a 21 yo are equally adults and there is a significant difference between a 16 yo and 15 yo. This is a really difficult subject where I have a hard time deciding where I stand, so please all, respond only with well reasoned insight. I would hate to be one of the people that writes the laws on this.