Transition from soft swinging to full swap

[EnjoyingLife 127]

Maybe one of these days I'll feel like we have enough experience to give advice. All I have lately are questions after questions.

 

What a journey the last 9 months or so have been for us. We went from just being voyeurs, to a little bit of exhibitionism, to soft swinging in the first few months. All seemed to be going pretty well. Then last winter, after the Mr. had a not-so-good experience seeing me with someone else, we took a step back and stayed there until recently.

 

At the beginning of the summer we met a couple that we've really clicked with. It's awesome being with them and are all enjoying it--just soft swinging, but lots of fun, really hot--like I said, we've all just clicked. We'll be seeing them again this weekend. Lots of flirty emails flying back and forth and it's heating up fast. Really fast! Beyond our initial boundary-setting talk, we haven't discussed full swap, but it seems pretty clear to us that is where they'd like to take it if and when we are ready.

 

That's where I need help. A few weeks ago, I posted a question about emotions after swinging

 

I think everyone assumed it was me that was dealing with the emotional swings, but it isn't. It is Mr. EnjoyingLife. From the whole experience, I personally get that feeling of exhilaration (among other positive effects) that so many describe. He's as turned on by the thought and leading up to each experience as the rest of us, he enjoys the actual experience as much as anyone else. The problem is always the next few days after each experience.

 

Swinging and just being around the lifestyle has had so many positives for us, but him seeing me with another man isn't one of them for him. In fact, he doesn't really care for it. He claims that at the worst it is just mildly uncomfortable, and as long as he is preoccupied with the other wife it isn't even that. But by the next day it bothers him some. Sometimes he'll say things like "I saw you do X, you've never done that with me." Jealousy maybe? He says no, but I don't know what else it would be. He also says he feels some guilt about how turned on he gets with another woman...he says he made a lifelong commitment to me and if he were being true to that commitment he doesn't think he should get that turned on. It doesn't matter how much I reassure him that I understand and actually ENJOY seeing him having a good time, his feelings are his feelings. So anyways, in the few days after the experience he deals with what he describes as some sadness over the thought of me with someone else and some guilt about being with someone other than me.

 

Then, the next thing you know that is all gone and he's back to anticipating the next experience as much as the rest of us are.

 

So, here we are about to see them again (the couple we click with), and Mr. EnjoyingLife keeps bringing up full swapping to me. He knows that I would, that I could, that I would even like to in the heat of the moment...but that I don't need it and that I'm perfectly happy where we are and would happily remain soft swingers indefinitely. Soft swinging is all about foreplay after all, and women love foreplay!

 

But again, he keeps talking about it and saying how much fun it would be for him. So I remind him that it can't be just one way like that (just him and the other wife), that before he does that he needs to be absolutely certain that he is okay with all four of us full swapping, because if he and the other wife do it will be expected that the other husband and I do too. And when I remind him of that, he comes back to reality and says that no, he doesn't want me with another man like that.

 

Can anyone help me understand what is going on here? It seems pretty clear to me that full swapping is probably not the best move for our relationship right now, so I'm planning to at least try to get him to wait for a while longer. Maybe with a few more good soft swinging experiences his emotional swings about it all will smooth out? I just really need some other perspectives here. Thanks!

[Coupleerotic22 1,419]

You are correct, full swap does not sound like something you should be doing right now. I would also caution you NOT to go with the flow "in the heat of the moment," even if he is urging you to and says it is okay/what he wants. Set the rules for the night and stick to them, you can change your mind before the next time if you like, but if you change in midstream, you could have some SERIOUS issues. You can put the toothpaste back in the tube.

 

He may say it is not, but it certainly sounds like jealousy, that and some insecurities. Keep communicating and discussing your desires and fears and perhaps in time he can over come them. But I would not go any further toward full swap until you are both confident he has.

 

I was trying to think of an intermediate step you two could do between soft and full swap. But we just jumped right in so I have never given it any thought. Perhaps others can shed some light on that subject.

[Dont.Stop 339]

It does sound like jealousy/insecurity is the issue. I'd suggest after a soft swap that the two of you have your own lovemaking session after they/you leave and reinforce your feelings for each other. Swinging is not for everyone, and all levels of swinging are not necessarily right for all swingers. Take it slow.

[MN Tom 251]

Yeah, sounds like you need to spend some more time where you are at now.

 

There really arent any partial steps, it's either penetration or not, cant really go halfway in that.

 

You could have sex with your spouses in front of the other couple, maybe that would be a tiny bridge of sorts, maybe not.

 

OVerall though it sounds like there are insecurity/jealousy issues to work out, and if soft play is bringing those up, they would definitely be there with full swap too.

 

Keep in mind that most of us had some pang of jealousy or emotion arise the first time we saw our spouse playing with someone else. For me (a rather non jealous type of person) I had a tiny pang of jealousy when I saw her with another, but the pleasure I derived from seeing how much she was enjoying it overwhelmed that tiny pang and that was it.

 

My wife had a bit more of an issue than that, hers was small but still present and gradually worked out over several play sessions, and now we are both at the point of thoroughly enjoying the thought and sight of each other playing with others.

[EnjoyingLife 127]

So, the consensus seems to be that we are okay staying at the level where we are, but that we shouldn't try to push past that limit until we are absolutely positively sure we are ready. Good advice. That's basically what I was thinking. I know that if we set a boundary for ourselves and are firm on the "rules" he'll respect that regardless of how tempted he might be in the moment.

 

It's hard sometimes to know exactly where we stand, since he is really flip-flopping with the way he feels about all this. But my answer is probably in that statement. When he quits the flip-flopping and is consistent about the way he feels, that is when we'll know we are ready to make a move to a new level (and I accept that the move could be backwards or forwards--regardless of how much I enjoy the swinging, our relationship is far more important).

 

Thanks for the other advice. We do have sex (together) with the other couple there, and I think that probably helps some. And we had an excellent sex life anyways, which gets even better after an experience...i.e., we are definitely reinforcing our love for each other. So we're good there too.

 

I'm also hearing that if the problem is jealousy/insecurity, that is something that very well may lessen over time and with more experience? Or does it seem more likely that is something he will always have to deal with to a degree, if we continue?

[Coupleerotic22 1,419]

I'm also hearing that if the problem is jealousy/insecurity, that is something that very well may lessen over time and with more experience? Or does it seem more likely that is something he will always have to deal with to a degree, if we continue?

 

It depends on the individual. For some there is never really much jealousy, for others it goes away in time, and still others are never free of it.

 

It is not that it needs to go away so much as controlled. People have different opinions about that statement, but I feel that if there is a little jealousy there but the individual is able to control it, not freak out, not hold it over their partner, or let it fester into something worse.

 

Time will tell, perhaps as you two gain more experience and he can see that your relationship grows stronger then you both will feel more confident about moving on to full swap.

[EnjoyingLife 127]

Woo hoo! While it may still be a little too early to tell what tomorrow may bring, after an incredible experience last night there have been NO emotional swings today at all. No jealousy, no insecurity, and no sadness. It's all good! Oh, and yes, we did stick to our soft swing rules.

 

I just wanted to come back and update the thread that maybe we're getting past this. This makes me very happy! It was hard to see him struggle with it in the past.

[EnjoyingLife 127]

Not sure if maybe I should start a new thread on this, but I need more advice on this same topic.

 

We're seeing the same couple again soon and my husband is really hot for the wife. The truth is that we both are (me for the husband too, I mean). We like them a lot and have had some amazing soft swing experiences with them. We're very comfortable with them.

 

So here we are again, talking about making the transition to full swapping.

 

How do I know my husband is ready? I know he won't enjoy seeing me with the other husband that way. But how do I know he'll at least be able to tolerate it without any negative reactions? He seems to think he is ready. But I know his judgment is clouded because he's so hot for the other wife. And, I kind of feel my own judgment is clouded because I WANT him to be ready.

 

Maybe I'm just nervous because our journey into soft swinging was so slow and measured, checking in with each other each step of the way. And this next one is pretty much all or nothing.

 

If anyone has any thoughts they'd be helpful to me.

[two4youinswva 3,068]

I'd say the biggest thing to remember is it is absolutely OK for anyone to say "Stop" whenever that person feels uncomfortable, or not ready to go on. Even if it is after play has started.

 

I remember thinking I'd be OK with it the first time, but still had a little doubt in the back of my mind. When that moment came (and went), it was all good. I think the key was I knew either of us had the right to put a halt to things if we felt uncomfortable.

 

Talk to the other couple. Let them know the two of you believe you are ready to take it to the next level, but will need their guidance and understanding if it doesn't happen. Almost every couple we've known in the lifestyle would be more than accommodating in assisting you in this jump.

 

Keep talking to each other, and let him know how you feel.

 

Good luck!

[MN Tom 251]

To be frank it's really hard to know without doing it.

 

Is the issue that he can see you? Is there a chance you could play in the same room at an angle that he cant see you or maybe can only hear you?

[Alura 2,774]

I think Tom is right. The only way y'all will know for sure is if you try it.

 

Now, the question becomes, "If we try it and can't handle it, can we get past the experience without harming our marriage." It sounds to me like y'all communicate well enough to do so, but you and your husband need to discuss every possible detail before deciding on having the experience or not. Perhaps, in this way you can isolate and deal with your husband's fears.

 

Be aware that if your husband does "freak out" it will probably be just after he comes. Men are like that!

 

Since "soft" swinging means different things to different couples, it would help if we knew exactly what y'all have done so far. Will "full swap" mean just adding intercourse to the picture, or are there other issues?

 

Next y'all need to talk to your playmates about possible details and outcomes. They sound like a great couple who will fully understand and help.

[EnjoyingLife 127]

We're at the point of everything short of penetration, Alura. Thank you, by the way. I always love reading your posts. They're so helpful.

 

They are a great couple. But, at least as far as we know, this would be a new experience for them too, although they seem a lot more easy-going about it than we are, and more than ready to take the next step. So, we could definitely talk to them and they'd understand, but the "guidance" two4you mentioned probably won't happen. We do have a real friendship started with them, beyond the swinging, and we'd hate to mess that up in any way, so that's a concern too.

 

I do like the idea of being able to call a halt at any time. Of course we have the rule anyhow. But this might be a good time to remind each other of it.

 

I thought of that, Tom. But I have a feeling what he doesn't see would bug him far more than what he did see.

 

I appreciate all the advice. It gives us lots to think about and talk about.

[Alura 2,774]

EnjoyingLife said:

We're at the point of everything short of penetration, Alura. Thank you, by the way. I always love reading your posts. They're so helpful.

 

What a nice thing to say, EnjoyingLife! Thank you!

 

I usually ask myself, "What would Laura and I have done," but it really doesn't apply in your case. Once we decided we wanted to try swinging, we never considered anything short of full swap. We didn't know there was any other option.

 

Here's my suggestion:

 

1. Talk to your husband and agree that both promise to never let anything that has to do with swinging hurt your marriage; it's just sex, not making-love. Promise each other you'll never "make love" with anyone else. This will be easy because you won't be able to.

 

2. Decide together if y'all want to try it and see how it goes. If you do,

 

3. Talk to your friends and tell them y'all would like to try a "test fuck" to gauge how it affects all four. If they agree, tell your husband how much you love him, and

 

4. Fuck 'em! (It won't be a huge step considering that y'all have almost done it already.) Afterward, go immediately to your husband and tell him how much you love him. Make out a little. Make love to him. That will show him the difference between what you do together and what you just did with others.

 

5. If everyone handles it well, do it again! If not, put it in the past and don't repeat it.

 

6. Report back to us. We really do care.

 

Good luck!

[EnjoyingLife 127]

So we sat down and read this thread together (Mr. EnjoyingLife and I) last night and again this morning. We have lots to think about.

 

We've learned a lot over this last year. One of the most important lessons, I think, is that we have to have a connection with the couple beyond the sexual connection. We don't have to be best friends, but there does have to be a connection. We're not knocking those who prefer something more anonymous. To each their own. It just isn't for us.

 

But, because we're looking for a connection, it is also really important to us that the other couple has a strong relationship (like we do)--that definitely makes the chance of attachments and drama less likely. This couple definitely meets both those criteria for us.

 

We also know with 100% certainty that we are D free and we have every reason to believe they are too. That risk is something that has bothered both of us from the start, so this is a big plus too. If we are honest, that is part of the driver. We know they are ready to take the next step and if not with us, they may go elsewhere.

 

Add all that up plus 4-way chemistry on top of it and we're probably leaning toward taking that next step, assuming the other couple feels the same.

 

As far as Mr. EnjoyingLife goes, he says he hasn't had any of those flip flops for a very long time now, so he thinks he is probably okay there, though much of that probably has to do with his comfort level with this particular couple--but that's okay since we aren't out "playing the field" and don't expect to any time soon.

 

At first we thought we didn't want to full swap because we wanted to keep something just for us. But we've both realized that that there is a big difference between what we do together and what we do with others, and it is becoming more and more clear that even if we full swap we are still keeping the intimacy of making love for just ourselves.

 

When it comes to his "discomfort" at seeing me with someone else, he says he really enjoys other men's attraction to me and says he has grown to enjoy seeing me be the "recipient" of pleasure and that now he is just a little uncomfortable seeing me "give" pleasure, but that it is getting better. So, we probably should have a talk with the other couple first and let them know we are unsure exactly how we'll feel after. But, you are all correct. We won't know until we do it. Thanks again for the advice. As Alura said, hopefully everything will go well and we'll get to repeat!

[Gordo 618]

Perhaps consider separate rooms so he doesn't have to watch. He can enjoy his partner totally and not be bothered by what you are doing.

 

If it's agreeable to all.

[EnjoyingLife 127]

We have another question.

 

We might have hit an impasse last night. But at least we're talking about the details because we just found one that could have caused a real problem since we were on different pages here and didn't realize it. I know this might seem like a minor thing to some of you, but we've been together nearly 30 years (married well over 20), literally since we were kids, and this is a big step for us. I've always been one to pay no attention to societal norms and happily color outside the lines, and he is a traditionalist and pretty conservative in the way he thinks. I've always helped him challenge and push through his boundaries (and he's usually happy he did afterwards) and he's reigned me in when I need to be (and sometimes I really do need to be). We complement each other that way and are usually a great team. But we are having some trouble finding the middle ground on this--something we are both comfortable with but that is also fair to our friends.

 

First, it is relevant to explain the way we swing with this couple. We don't just pair off and stay that way. Our swinging dates tend to be really fluid. Sometimes we are paired with our own spouse. Sometimes we're paired with the other spouse. Sometimes we have foursomes going on. And sometimes when someone wants a break or just chooses to step back and watch, threesomes. It is all really fluid and natural and back and forth (and really HOT!). With a break or two, we've tended to go on for hours this way. So obviously the men have had to hold back as long as they can, because at least for my husband, it usually isn't happening more than once within the same few hours--at least not without a long break. As it has turned out, I've always been with my husband at the end and I've either finished things for him orally, or there have been times we've waited until later in private.

 

So last night we were talking about this possible full-swap, the pros and cons of condoms, and how the night might go. I said that one of my concerns was that with a full swap (adding penetration with the other spouse into the mix, because that's the only thing missing now) the night would end much faster than it has been and that I wouldn't enjoy that as much. He didn't understand why I said that, so I explained I was concerned that the two guys would finish more quickly and that we wouldn't have the fun back and forth going on. He looked a little shocked and asked me "You expect me to finish with her?" I answered yes and he asked if I wanted to finish with the other husband. I answered yes again and I guess I was surprised at the questions, since I hadn't imagined there were any other possibilities. I just assumed that was part of full swapping. But for his part, he had NOT thought it would be part of a full swap and just assumed we would come back to each other to finish, like we have in the past. In fact, it seems to be pretty upsetting to him to think of it going any other way--particularly regarding me and the other husband.

 

So I guess the question is this: Considering our history with this couple and that we're already used to switching back and forth multiple times in the same night and then the men finishing with their own spouse, would it be unreasonable for us to full swap but make a rule that (at least for now--maybe this is the intermediate step someone suggested earlier in this thread) we go back to our spouses at the end, for the "finale"?

 

I realize we should set whatever rules and boundaries are right for us. But I'm worried that is an unreasonable limitation to put on our friends. On the other hand, I don't think my husband could (or should) move forward otherwise, because this is something that really bothers him. So, we are just looking for thoughts or feedback. If you met a couple with this rule, would you understand it and be okay with it or would you figure it wasn't worth it and move on? Other than that, our only rules are pretty basic: same room, no anal, and no means no. The alternative is that we stay soft swingers because I don't want my husband to do anything he is uncomfortable with.

[MN Tom 251]

Discuss it with them.

 

One thing to consider though, is that there are many times when a guy wont be able to finish with other woman, even if he wants to.

 

Take myself. I rarely climax with another woman, only a handful of times from intercourse. I can have intercourse with another gal for 2 hours and still not climax. Most of that is the fault of the condom, but so be it.

 

Now, the thing is at times it will happen, I've climaxed a handful of times with a condom and another gal. If the gal wants to get me off, she can, but it's usually from oral. And those times I probably could have held off, but to be honest most gals want the guy to climax too, and it feels like depriving them, and they can get frustrated. I know if I wasn't able to bring a woman to climax I would be very frustrated. Heck if they dont have at least a few I'm frustrated.

 

So in your case, discuss it. If you have this discussed beforehand, both parties should be ok with that ending.

 

Now, are you limiting the climaxes for the females? Doesn't sound like you are, but that would be a lot harder to contain in my opinion.

[weloveeachother 29]

There was a couple we knew that had this rule. We are still not full swap but had discussed with them what their rules were. They said they always finish together.

 

I think that my wife may try to adopt that rule; if we ever make it to full swap that is. I think her issue is more that she doesn't want anybody cumming in her or in her mouth. She thinks that should be for us. I told her then let him cum on your tits.

 

Sounds to me like your husband may be afraid of too much attachment with the other couple. As Tom suggests, just talk it over and over and over until you can agree on what is best for you as a couple. I have always liked the rule that nobody gets mad for what happens during swinging. Don't let it damage your relationship. Learn from it and move on. It's hard to know how one will react until they actually 'do the deed' so to speak.

 

Whatever happens, it sounds like you have already found some great friends to explore with. I bet if you talk it out among yourselves, you will work it out. Have fun!! That's what is important.

[EnjoyingLife 127]

So, you are saying it might not be an issue anyhow, because even if we didn't have the rule it might not happen?

 

I was reading some of the old archives and one couple asked about having a rule that the guys had to pull out (condom or not) and they got kind of blasted for it because the rule was too "controlling" and most said they'd pass on a couple with that rule. After reading that, I was feeling kind of depressed about it all. But your answer makes me think again that maybe there is a way to work it out.

 

Like many women I am multi-orgasmic and it hasn't been an issue in the past with our soft swinging so I don't imagine it would be going forward either. I don't think he'd like it if I climaxed once with the other husband and then had nothing left for him, but that's not the way it is. And he has said he enjoys seeing me enjoy myself. We didn't specifically talk about that last night, but I think it was just the men he has an issue with.

 

The nights when he's wanted to wait until later, I actually do feel a little frustrated and not as satisfied. I get a lot of pleasure from bringing him to climax and I imagine I would with another partner as well. But I really don't think his intention is to be controlling like in that archived post I mentioned. I think that to him there is still just a lot of emotion and intimacy connected with the moment of climax. I know he can separate sex and love and I know I can as well, and I think he believes me when I tell him that I can. I don't really think it is about that.

 

Maybe this is like some couples who have a rule against kissing because they think it is too intimate? We don't have that rule, I'm just using it as an example. To him, climaxing is very intimate and emotional and he doesn't want to share that. While I don't necessarily feel the same way, at least not when we are talking about a swinging situation vs making love, I respect his feelings and will obviously respect his wishes. Explained this way maybe it isn't an unreasonable rule?

 

I don't know what we would do without this message board! Where else would we ever get answers to questions like these.

[two4youinswva 3,068]

We'd probably pass.

 

A guy may not want to finish with his play friend, but that doesn't mean he won't, regardless of past performances, or declarations about his lack of ability to finish.

 

Shit happens, and we don't care to be around when it hits the fan.

[Alura 2,774]

We almost always made love after swinging with another couple. (I can't remember a time when we didn't.) It wasn't a rule, just something we wanted to do.

 

Of course, we had orgasms with our playpartners, too, so I'm not sure we could have said "we always finish together."

[EnjoyingLife 127]

So, we took the plunge this weekend and it was a mixed experience. Good in some ways and not so good in others. By the time Mr. EnjoyingLife decided he was ready to move forward with a full swap, he had also worked through some of his other concerns and no longer felt the need to put all the limitations on the experience. The only big rule was that it had to be in the same room. Everything seemed to be in place for a really fun night. I still had some reservations because I was concerned how my husband would react when it actually happened, but I was excited and mostly optimistic. How ironic that in the end it is me struggling with the experience.

 

The night unfolded in a really strange way. It started with the four of us as usual. If I have any one big regret from the night, it is that things moved forward too quickly. I wish I had slowed things down so that my husband could have been the first one to start things; if I had I think the night would have gone very differently. As it turned out, it was me and the other husband who moved forward first and the sight and sound was overwhelming to mine, and even though he had started with the other woman, after a few minutes he had to call a break. He left the room to try to gather his thoughts and I followed. He told me he didn't think he was going to be able to handle it after all. I told him that was okay and that I loved him and that while I was sure the other couple would be disappointed they would understand. I also told him that I didn't want to hurt him and that I promised it wouldn't happen again, not ever, unless he wanted it to.

 

I don't know what was said, but I know he gave the other wife some sort of explanation or apology--he didn't want her to think it had anything to do with her--and we all went out in the hot tub for a little bit. The water was too cool and so when the other husband went in the house to get some food, I followed him so I could get warm in the house. That left my husband and his wife outside in the hot tub alone. If you've read this far, you can probably guess the ending to this story. That's where things got weird and rules were broken.

 

We were inside having a good conversation when all of a sudden we heard the two of them outside start to have sex. It was loud and very obvious. We looked at each other, unsure of what to do. I asked him if he wanted to go out and he said that as long as I was okay with it, no, he was okay with just letting them have their fun. I think I was a little in shock, but I actually was okay with it at the time, so we just sat there and listened. How strange. I really do think I was okay with it at the time. At least okay with the sex, because I had prepared myself for that. But I don't think I will ever be able to erase those sounds from my memory. The sounds were shocking and upsetting to me though I kept control and didn't show it.

 

When it quieted down and I was sure they were done, I went outside. The shock had kind of subsided by that point and even though I was acutely aware that the rules had been broken, I was fully prepared to let it go and salvage the night. But I was not prepared for what I saw when I went out. The two of them were cuddling together, sitting really close, he had his arm around her and they were talking together quietly. I felt like I had walked in on a really intimate moment and that really hurt. That's the way we cuddle together after we make love. Still, I remember thinking that maybe I was misinterpreting and so I tried to brush it off and I kind of joked "what have you two been doing out here" and then "it's cold out here, you should come in with us." Then I turned around and went back inside.

 

I think listening to them had been a turn on for the other husband. He was hot and bothered and wanted to fool around. I was on board with that. He's a lot of fun, I enjoy being with him, and I was sorry that our fun had ended so prematurely earlier. But even with what had just happened outside, I really felt like I needed to honor my earlier promise to my husband that it wouldn't happen again. I told him I was so sorry, that I knew it wasn't fair, but that I had just promised and couldn't break that. Considering the circumstances, he showed incredible patience and restraint. So we just fooled around, but both really, really wanted more.

 

Time kind of stood still for me then. I think it might have been around an hour, but I don't really know. It had to have been quite a while, because we each had to take a bathroom break and twice when I was able to slip away, I went back outside to try to get them to come back in. Both times I found them exactly the same way, still wrapped around each other, cuddling and talking. I can't even begin to imagine what they could have been thinking. You don't share intimate moments with your swinging partner! At least I don't think you do. That's definitely not what I signed up for. The second time I went out, I actually told them "We heard you. We know what you did. And it is getting really hard to resist doing the same. You need to come in." But they didn't. The third time, they both said, "go in, have fun." So to heck with it. That's exactly what I did.

 

When I wrote that part of the night was good, it was this part. My experience with the husband was actually, really, really good. He's respectful, thoughtful, obviously hot for me, yet cares that my needs are being met too. I have a lot of fun with him. This part of the night was everything I had hoped it would be.The weird part was that being alone with him actually worked out really well with me because it allowed me to just focus on enjoying the experience without worrying about what my husband might be seeing or hearing and how it might affect him. It also, when we later talked about it worked for my husband too, since he says he knew what was happening inside but since he didn't have to see it or hear it it was somehow easier for him. Still, in retrospect, we both agree that if we have to be in separate rooms it is no longer swinging and it is no longer about us and a shared experience. We don't want it to happen that way ever again. If we have to be in separate rooms to be comfortable, we shouldn't be doing it. That's what we've decided.

 

Anyhow, at some point they came in and we finished the night (by this point it was like 2:00 in the morning) with our own partners and then went to bed (we were hosting and they stayed overnight).

 

I was awake literally all night, tossing and turning and wondering how things would be in the morning. When he woke up he immediately knew he owed me an apology and I got a heartfelt one. I told him how hurt I was at what had looked like intimacy. From his perspective, it wasn't that at all, but he is still very regretful for having hurt me. I believe he is sorry and even if I maybe should be, I'm not angry with him. He also apologized to the other husband for having broken the rules. The other woman initiated it, but he knows that doesn't matter. He knows he should have stopped it before it started and brought it inside and he is regretful for having disrespected me and her husband by not doing that. (My husband read this before I posted it and wants me to make it very clear that it doesn't matter who initiated it, he knows it takes two and he takes full responsibility)

 

Here is where I am getting stuck. I shared my husband with her, gave her my trust, and I feel like she betrayed that trust when she consciously and flagrantly broke the rules. Worse, I saw her sharing this really intimate moment with my husband and it make me feel so disrespected and violated, I'm not sure how to move forward with it. I so don't want to be a drama queen, but I'm hurt. I really like her husband and connect with him at levels other than sexual ones, but I have far too much respect for their relationship and for ours to ever let it get intimate. In fact, when we are talking, if it starts to get too personal, I very consciously pull back to try and avoid that. She didn't give me the same respect and I feel betrayed. I thought I could trust her and now I don't know if I ever can again.

 

If she had shown any remorse the next morning or made any effort to apologize I would have let it go and accepted the apology. But she didn't. And now, even 24+ hours later, I'm only feeling worse about it rather than better. We had become real friends before this, and they have emailed and texted since they left yesterday, and I haven't answered because I'm afraid of saying something out of anger or hurt. It won't be long before they realize something is wrong since barely a day has gone by in the past 4 months when we haven't had at least a couple of emails or texts go back and forth. I'm still unsure, when the time comes, whether I should say something about how hurt I am or whether I should let it go.

 

The only other problem is that we had the same room rule in place for a reason. Not realizing it would bother me, my husband started to tell me about what had happened out there. I told him to stop, I couldn't bear it. But it was already too late. Now I'm being tormented by these visions of what I didn't see. Imagination is usually far more brutal than reality. I really think I would have been okay if I had been there. But everything combined...the sounds of them having sex, the bits and pieces he described to me, the intimacy after...it is all I can think of when I close my eyes. I do think I just need some time to get over this, though. It is the betrayal of my trust that will stay with me the longest.

 

Anyways, that's the story of our first full swap. Sorry for the book. Writing about it just helps me to process.

[Gordo 618]

Well that certainly puts the "F" in cluster fuck.

 

Obviously both your husband and the friend went to far. But I'm also going to say that at some point the body (and the chemical load) just takes over and stopping becomes almost impossible.

 

Further back I suggested separate rooms for you both to overcome the feelings. A lot of swingers will tell you that you aren't a true swinger UNTIL you can do separate rooms. The rule for being in the same room frankly in my opinion is a rule designed (for newbies) to control your spouse to make sure they aren't enjoying themselves too much. A lot of it is justified on the "safety" issue and that may be true when you don't really know someone but after you've been with them numerous times it really is a crutch. UNLESS you truly get off on watching the other.

 

Both of you seem successful with the separate room approach and it IS swinging so perhaps a better solution is to work on how you could share the experience after without triggering negative emotions. Perhaps having sex together to reconnect or talking about it or whatever works. Perhaps even talking about it is too much but it enhances the sex life and that is OK too.

 

This is about exploration and finding things that work for both. Throw out what didn't work and focus on what does.

 

Always examine negative feelings and ask yourself are they truly justified. Often when you re-examine them you'll find they are not rooted in reality and won't stand up to a critical examination.

 

It sounds like despite everything you came a long way with this experience and I'll tell you we had a lot of the same things you did in the beginning. It is a basis to build on.

[EnjoyingLife 127]

For what it is worth, the other wife has figured out there was something wrong and has sent me an apology through email this afternoon, asking to talk when I was able. Actually, it sounds that she had started to think about it as early as the next morning and wanted to say something even before they left, but didn't know how. All that really matters to me is that she knows. Because if she knows it was wrong and is regretful, it means she'll be more careful in the future, and that is at least a base for me to try and rebuild some trust with her. I'm still hurt and a little angry...mostly hurt...but I think with a little time I can get past it.

 

I replied to her email and let her know how much I appreciated the apology, that I wasn't ready to talk about it yet, but that with a little time I would and that I'm sure we can get past it.

 

Anyways, I'm already starting to feel a little better and we definitely learned A LOT...now I just need to find a way to let it go.

[rainbowskye 102]

I agree with Gordo. It is about finding what does and doesn't work and focusing on what does.

 

Talk to her in your time, don't rush it.

 

You guys will get to a point where separate rooms are easy breezy.

 

My guy actually struggled with this in the beginning. He loves to see me with a woman, and loves when we have 3-somes and in the beginning he enjoyed being able to watch me and another man while he was with another woman.

 

Many years later, he is more comfortable with separate rooms and once we are together after an experience, the sex and intimacy are incredible.

[MN Tom 251]

Yeah, that definitely sounds like a very messy first experience.

 

The key though is how you handle it from here.

 

Some tips (that we used) for moving on would be just breaking the night down to the base level of what happened. Good stuff: Nobody was injured, nobody is lying, and you guys both enjoyed your personal experiences in your own ways.

Now, the "bad" stuff: your hubby and the other wifey did a type of play that bothered you.

 

In the end, the good stuff far outweighs the bad. They are being open about what you disliked, everyone knows about it, and you are discussing it. Right there is way more than half of the battle.

 

Most of the time (in the lifestyle) when something truly bad happens it's because of lies and/or a breakdown in communication. You guys seem to have neither, so you are doing well.

 

Yes you will have to discuss this, and yes, you likely will have to build up some trust and confidence again. And someday you will probably look back at this and think "wow, that was minor compared to xxxx or xxxxxx"

[EnjoyingLife 127]

Thanks for the support. It's good for me to hear others think it was a messed up first experience too because I wasn't sure if I was blowing it out of proportion.

 

I guess this is why so many warn against becoming friends with the people you swing with. It can definitely get messy and emotional. If anyone else pushed my buttons like this and made me feel as bad as I've felt the last couple of days I would be so done with them. But these are our friends and at even the thought of that I miss them. So I really want to get past it.

 

I'm still so angry and hurt, though. She lived out her fantasy at my expense. That pisses me off. But it is the intimacy I saw that is the hardest part. My husband was oblivious to it and says it wasn't like that at all. But I know what I saw. I could be wrong, but as women I think we are wired to try and establish emotional bonds with the men we have sex with. To be able to swing successfully I think you have to recognize it if you start to do it and turn it off. I've struggled with it myself and we've definitely complicated things by being friends. I think we all genuinely care about each other. But still, there is this fine line and she crossed it. If I had just had sex with her husband and she came in and found us wrapped around each other deep in conversation I doubt she would be too happy about it either. I had seen her "infatuation" with my husband (prior to this night) and I knew how bad she wanted him and I was okay with it. I even encouraged it. I wanted the swap to happen too. But not like that. It's no excuse, but I can rationalize it somewhat by the fact that the two of them had both had too much to drink. So their judgment was impaired and her guard was down. But I still need to know that she recognizes this and it will never happen again.

 

As far as the same room/separate room comments go, I suspect Gordo is right that it is a way for my husband to control the experience somewhat. Though since this is still new to us and he's the more hesitant of the two of us (at least until this past Friday night!!) it's understandable. After every experience it never fails that he finds something to criticize about something I did or didn't do that night. Whether it is a particular way I kissed or a position he'd never seen me in before or that I didn't come back to him quickly enough when he wanted me or that I didn't realize that him touching my foot meant he wanted my attention and wasn't just that he was touching my foot, etc. I've tried to be sensitive to it because I realize where it is coming from and it has become far less of a problem as he's become more comfortable with what we are doing. But as a result I have become hyper-aware of him at all times and constantly check my behavior because I'm not sure what will be upsetting to him. What a relief it was to just let go of that the other night.

 

For my part, if anyone had actually consulted me I probably would have given consent for separate rooms. But I would have made damn sure I wasn't anywhere I could hear what was going on and I would have made it clear I would tell my husband anything he wanted to know (he likes to hear the details) although I would NOT want details. If I had actually been there when it happened I know I would have recognized it for what it was--just fucking, nothing more and nothing less. But because I wasn't and he took it upon himself to "come clean" and tell me a few parts of the night, now my imagination is playing games with me. I have these images in my head that I know aren't reality, but they are there and I'm having a really hard time shutting them off.

 

Thanks for "listening." I have a busy, stressful work day ahead and it helps to get this out of my head and onto the computer screen so I can stop thinking about it so much.

[MN Tom 251]

We have to say that we disagree with the notion of having to turn off the emotional connection. That is something that varies per person. Some people have to, some dont. Some people start out with it off and turn it on, and vice versa. Every couple has a different boundary in terms of that, from a nearly emotionless event all the way up to full blown polyamory.

 

I'm not saying what you believe is wrong, it may well be the way you can cope with swinging. I'm just saying that it's not that way for everyone.

 

The part about you not wanting the details is fairly common too. One of my playmates is that way. Not only with her hubby, but also with me. She knows I play with others, but she doesn't want to hear anything about it. And her hubby actually talks with me about his adventures because she does not want to hear about them from him either. Yet she enjoys him going out, and likes the fact that I see others also. Only thing she wants to know was "did you score, yes or no" Anything more than that isn't welcome, but she really wants to know that. It's how she works.

[EnjoyingLife 127]

Fair enough, Tom. You're right. And that just hit me upside the head with a "duh" moment. We never discussed that before and it's possible we had different expectations for the relationship. I really don't think so. But maybe we should have talked about that before, all four of us together. The friendship between us came on pretty quickly and took us all by surprise. I thought we'd been doing a good job of balancing the two sides to our relationship, and that we're all on the same page, but if even one of the four of us had a slightly different idea it could throw the whole relationship off balance.

 

I definitely sympathize with your playmate. That's me for sure. I just want the big picture. No details, please.

 

I'm actually starting to feel much, much better about it all now and the anger is going away. I'm beginning to realize that they both just had way too much to drink and probably were not at all aware that the way they were acting after was affecting me the way it was or even that it looked the way it did. I know neither one of them would do anything intentional to hurt me. It is probably time to let this go and talk to her.

[EnjoyingLife 127]

As a quick update, we've all talked, we all recognize our mistakes (we all made them), we've definitely learned from them, and we are moving forward probably much stronger friends for the experience. We've faced some challenging situations since entering the lifestyle and honest communication has been the solution to all of them. This was no exception. I appreciate you all putting up with me as I worked through it.

 

As an update to the original reason for this thread, we're through the transition and my husband is now looking forward to the next time. It was a rocky start, but I think we made a real breakthrough. Thanks again.

[Just Passing By 140]

Not withstanding your update of a few min ago, I was already going to start out with the bottom line that you guys should keep to soft actities. ( Not that there's anything worong with that).. Reading the whole thread in one sitting , there are still too many issues between the two of you that are both unresolved , unexplored, unanticipated , yet turn out to be hot buttons for each of you..

 

Looking at swinging thru the lens of "first day of engineering school" (anyone who has experienced the universal lecture will remember it for life) break the whole thing down to the underlying basics :

 

You are out to have mutually rewarding experiences w/ (whoever) so as have fun, excitement , and close bonding with your partner.

 

While each of you want to have a good time in your own right (ie not "take one for the team" ) each one of you shold try to make sure your spouse has a slightly better time.

 

You both need to feel confident going in that no matter what , anything that happens or doesn't happen. The two of you are strong enough with each other to deal with it with out harm to the two of you together.

 

Everything else is just details.

 

( Standard refrain for most questions : There are lots of viable aproaches , some people will at various time prefer A , B , or C , or not have great preference either way. You won't know in advance which. Communicate and adjust . )

 

Specifically there is a continuim between totally anonomus , and Polyamory . Wishing some degree of compatability and friendlyness is common , but as observer it seems as if you are trying a window of "close and friendly , but not TOO close and friendly" that is really narrow, and constantly shifting.

 

Not witstanding Jack The Ripper Insurence playing location options vary widely, and each as large number of adherents/ haters . Try, communicate and adjust. We had generally enjoyed watching, and/ or all playing together. Can't think of any time of seperate actual rooms, but there were seperate dates.

 

Yes any group of people can and should set boundries and communicate howsoever so mutually choose. But intercourse while avoiding ejaculation is one that is really narrow, and not always able to regulate even if trying to.

 

Not picking on you you've got a good starting position , and you are trying to proced thoughtfully and carefully.

[Just Passing By 140]

The other issue is sufficiently seperate to merit a seperate post.

 

Every man at some point reaches a stage where recovery time reaches the extent that you can only count on one "round" during a typical session. There are essentially two paths at this situation :

 

Fully wrap your mind around the concept that it matters less how many times you get off , than how often your partner(s) do. You're still enjoying their pleasure. before or after taking your shot , your mouth , fingers , toys , etc still have nearly unlimited capabilities.

 

Or take plan B , and take pharmacutical, herbal , etc aproach , at least for planed play dates.

 

It all depends on preexisting mental attitudes , and how much they can or can't adapt to new parameters. It's a bigger issue in my mind than in other peoples . For one on one it's one thing , but if the Universe shifted , and certain activities were again on the horizon , then there would be an embarassing and humilating conversation likely to occur w/ MD .

 

YMMV

[EnjoyingLife 127]

Appreciate the advice, Just Passing By. We think we'll approach the future with this couple just as we had been before...no expectations...just see where things take us. My hubby and I have a very strong relationship. I'm sure we'll make more mistakes along the way, but I'm confident that we'll learn and grow from them rather than letting them harm our relationship. We do feel we're over a hurdle, though, and one that didn't end up being anywhere near as difficult for us as we thought it might be.

 

I do think you are absolutely correct that that we are walking a very fine and somewhat shifting line. But I'm not quite sure what to say about that beyond that we are aware of it and keeping a close eye on it.

[Chicup 41]

Perhaps consider separate rooms so he doesn't have to watch. He can enjoy his partner totally and not be bothered by what you are doing.

 

If it's agreeable to all.

 

We did that horrible mistake. Imagination is worse than reality usually.

 

Would have been far better same room.

[10thBadger 25]

I have noticed one thing that has come up in conversations that I have read on this form. So many times the man says, why did you do this with a perfect stranger but you never did that with me. In other words you are more willing to get wild or or be more excited or just experiment more with a total stranger than you are with the person that you are supposed to love and care for. I would think that the wife would be just adventurous with her husband that she knows very well and at least do the same with the stranger but the wives seem to want to do more with the stranger than they do with the husband. I think that is what makes some of these men go crazy. You did this and this and this and this and this with the stranger but you never did that with me and then the woman only says well I don’t know? Well why don’t you know? Well I just got caught up in the moment. So why don’t you get caught up in the moment with me and do the same things? Wife says I don’t know. Guy goes crazy and start stinking he’s in adequate and she doesn’t love him as much because she won’t do the things with him.

[MidwestHoneys 358]

8 minutes ago, 10thBadger said:

 

I have noticed one thing

 

I noticed you must have callouses on your hand 🤪

[10thBadger 25]

This is Miss badger, I’m not sure why you think we have calluses but then again it is OK. You can think what you like. I seem to be trolling us. Lol

[shy_couple 459]

Of course, we all love poorly punctuated, rambling, nonsense and new answers to posts that have been dead over 10 years…..