Seems like a touchy situation to me, any ideas?

[MN Tom 251]

Over the last few days we've spent some time talking with a gal friend of ours (and her hubby) about a situation that they are presented with.

 

They have what we would call an open marriage, and have been married about 10 years and are still in love from what we gather. They both have regular partners. She has a boyfriend that is pretty close to a full blown love scenario, and he has a few ladies (including Mrs Tom) that he plays with, although there is no love with his play partners going on as far as we know. Mr Tom has played with the gal in the past, but not since she fell in love with her boyfriend. Now it's more of a friend's type of thing with some flirting.

 

Anyway, recently her boyfriend won some tickets to hedo, and he wants to bring her with. It's a week long trip.

Side note, we also have met the boyfriend, only in social circles though (like at parties). Acquaintance type of setup. Seems like a nice guy, similar age as all of us, similar financial, has kids (divorced).

 

So, the trip offer came up, and of course she is excited. Hubby seems to be too, but both of them are a bit apprehensive because this is all new territory for them, and a week is about 6 days longer than they have ever spent with a play partner (they have done overnights locally).

 

We said the apprehension is what we would think about if it was us, we told them both that. To be honest though, we dont know what to think about it. We have to admit this is out of our league of experience, we have never taken a separate trip out of state with a playmate before, not to mention a weeklong trip to a resort out of country.

 

So we leave it up to you more experienced folks, what kinds of things should someone think of, look for, or ask about in such a situation?

 

This scenario got our minds thinking quite a bit, some excitement, some worry. Spending a week with a playmate would be something else, seems like it would be a huge bonding time, and we wonder if it would lead too far, especially considering the love between those two.

[Alura 2,775]

This situation is way too complicated for my experience (or taste, for that matter), Tom. I wouldn't want to deal with it, so I'm no help whatsoever.

 

Alura

[Zoe&Wash 93]

It would be waaaaaay out of our comfort zone, but who's to say that it's not within their comfort zone.

 

FWIW, you're right - the amount of time bonding with one individual has got to take it's toll on the original relationship. One of the things that we're fortunate enough to have are a couple of thirds who respect what Z and I've got and know that they're never getting between that.

 

Still and all, it would be difficult after a week of being with the third to go back to where you left off. If there's any doubt about that, check up on the trials and travails of some of our posters who've written about line crossings and rules breaking recently.

 

I'm with you - it would be worrisome.

 

And if there was ever any doubt you were really MN Tom:

Anyway, recently her boyfriend won some tickets to hedo, and he wants to bring her with.

That line put to rest any doubt we may have had

 

W

[MN Tom 251]

Is bring her with a minnesota type of statement or ? Im missing it.

 

Been chatting with my wife about this for the last hour, and it still confounds us. If we had been presented with the situation, it would be a no at this time. Like you both have mentioned, it's way out of our comfort zone too. It's a fun subject to discuss though. But the potential reality is hard to fathom, we both think the love thing could hit the tipping point pretty easily.

[DigginIt 1,132]

Ummm...hell no !!!

 

If we were going with another couple and wanted to switch partners a few complete days...maybe.

 

A week of bonding alone with a person where there is already an emotional attachment...

[Zoe&Wash 93]

Is bring her with a minnesota type of statement or ? Im missing it.

 

I've lived in half a mess of states. Only in the upper midwest is is permissible to end a sentence with the preposition "with". Someone outside of MN/WI might call me out on this one. I still haven't given up on "y'all" since living in GA, FL, VA and LA because if there's one thing that English needs, it's a usable second person plural - so personal experience might trump geographical existence.

 

If this thing happens, please let us know if it goes trainwreck or not. Inquiring minds want to know.

 

W

[MN Tom 251]

 

Well that's good to know, I was always wondering what language traits are considered to be from this neck of the woods. The accent you hear in a movie like Fargo isn't typical, not at least in most of the state.

 

 

The gal texted me a few more times tonight while I was at kid's soccer and I told her what I thought again. I would say she's solidly on the fence at this point, she is really tempted to go on the trip but knows that it's playing with fire.

I said that from my view, what I would see happening would be her having one of the most enjoyable times she's ever had, (she said that she's never had a trip like that with hubby). So then she would come home, and not want that moment to end. And she would probably be rather consumed by the fantasy thoughts of that time, and possibly push pretty hard to relive it, either by spending frequent nights at the boyfriend's place or planning little vacations with him.

Meanwhile hubby would be feeling neglected, and it would go downhill from there.

 

Maybe that's a bit of a doomsday scenario, but I believe that a married spouse falling in love and playing frequently with singles is begging for trouble. The single has nobody else to fall back to or to share love with. And while they may not want anything to do with marriage, the love will still continue to take hold. Especially since they are only doing the "fun" stuff and not doing any of the drudgery that life contains.

 

She acknowledged the thoughts, but didn't believe that she would go that far. Ill have to see her in person this weekend to see her body language, Im a bit worried at this point.

 

 

Texted the hubby, he's not saying much. Probably burying his emotions hoping for the best or something.

 

Bleh.

[DigginIt 1,132]

I remember a thread a while back where a lot of people on here stated that the moment bonding began it was time to step back and shut off the contact. It seems like that point came and gone and the poor hubby is not communicating his feelings in this one.

 

I'm only getting your take on this couple but it seems you think similarly even though you haven't quite said it so bluntly.

 

Unless your talking a poly type relationship then I'd say they were on the downhill slide quite awhile back.

[bbarnsworth 2,653]

I can imagine the husband getting caught in the middle of this. In for an ounce, in for a pound. He's allowed his wife the liberty of falling in love with her boyfriend, and now that she has and is very excited about going to Hedo with her boyfriend, the husband doesn't want to deny her the opportunity.

 

I think it goes back to pure basics; which is more important, the marriage or the boyfriend? If they're not comfortable with it...both of them...it shouldn't happen, period. If they're both perfectly happy with it, then fine.

[two4youinswva 3,068]

Way past anything we'd be comfortable with. But, that's just us.

 

I've lived in half a mess of states. Only in the upper midwest is is permissible to end a sentence with the preposition "with".

It's the only place I've heard it as well. Once in a blue moon I'll say it down here just to get a reaction. Usually the reaction is "With what?"

[Coupleerotic22 1,419]

I have a mental image of a plane spiraling out of control as flames and smoke bellow from the engine.

 

But then again everyone has a different level of comfort. It may work for them, but if I were laying money down I would bet against it being a good outcome.

[sweet_tna 680]

I personally think your Spidey senses are right on, Tom. I think this trip, while exciting at the prospect, will most likely end in disaster. But then, neither Mr. Sweet nor I have done any overnight swappage.

 

The closest we might come to that is an upcoming trip with friends to a local resort. As the other wife and my hubby have a tendency to turn in early, while the other hubby and I are likely to be awake longer, it is possible that there could be some separate snoozing for a night. But that's a far cry from spending a week away in a foreign country with a playmate you're already falling for . . .

 

But either way, it's between your lady friend and her hubby to decide/live with the consequences. All you can do is offer your opinion and hope for the best.

[Chicup 42]

The story was lost to me once you hit 'love' with 'open marriage'.

 

It was already out of what I consider a healthy relationship before the trip question.

[lovinher 505]

Won them?

 

Where do I sign up?

[MN Tom 251]

Yes he won tickets at a lifestyle event. Really what the tickets are is a voucher for a discount, the resorts sell these vouchers to party hosts for a pretty cheap rate (the voucher really isnt worth that much, they consider it advertising to a degree).

 

And the voucher is only good for 3 days or something, and the goal of the resort is to have people use these as a upgrade plan to actually buying a decent trip.

 

So the guy won the trip and he's paid more (a discount from full fare rate, but not a lot) to upgrade the trip to a full week.

 

Another friend of ours won one (my wife took 2nd place in that contest, the friend took first and won it) and we looked pretty hard at the voucher when she got it. They tend to have a lot of restrictions on them, such as limited travel dates and times. Guessing Hedo has a salesperson up here since all the party hosts have been handing these resort vouchers out as contest/lottery drawing winnings for the last few months.

[naughty_kitten 56]

Way too long of a time to spend together. Besides what if they realize they actually can't stand each other? Really only two likely outcomes: they either bond or they break up.

 

Sent from my Nexus One using Tapatalk

[MN Tom 251]

Ok, both I and Mrs Tom had some separate chats with the couple in question over the past few days, and then some time with the 4 of us yesterday.

 

The hubby is seemingly liking the idea. He's really excited about his wife going on it, wants to hear all about it, and then wants to go on a similar trip with his wife later on this year. He considers it a trial run of sorts. No mention of any apprehension anymore, nor any worries. Hmmm.

 

 

The wife is a bit more perplexing. She is also rather excited about the trip (they are booking it this week), but she has a bit of worry too. She's not saying she's worried about falling too far for the guy, but worried that she will like doing this sort of trip with the BF more than her hubby. We asked about that, and she said that the BF is different than the hubby, and it feels "easier" to have fun with him because she has less history, no family worries, it's all fun and games with him, whereas with the hubby it's reality.

 

That statement stopped us in our tracks, and when she said it, the hubby kind of glossed over it, and said it's just her worried about trying something new.

 

 

 

So we are hoping this doesn't end bad, but we dont like it. I guess we will find out in the next month or two.

[DigginIt 1,132]

The hubby is thinking with his little brain. The little brain doesn't give a shit about the consequences of what the trip could mean for his long term happiness in his relationship.

 

There is nothing really you can do to say or change their opinion most likely. Let us know how it ends up six months from now.

[two4youinswva 3,068]

The story was lost to me once you hit 'love' with 'open marriage'.

 

It was already out of what I consider a healthy relationship before the trip question.

 

I missed this in my first reading, and I agree.

 

This could lead to some real emotional and logistical problems, so to speak.

[Fundamental Law 2,909]

I still haven't given up on "y'all" since living in GA, FL, VA and LA because if there's one thing that English needs, it's a usable second person plural ...

W

 

I believe that "y'all" is singular. The plural of "y'all" is...at least in current usage here in the south..."all y'all"...!

[bbarnsworth 2,653]

[weloveeachother 29]

 

 

I agree 100X!!!

[Zoe&Wash 93]

I believe that "y'all" is singular. The plural of "y'all" is...at least in current usage here in the south..."all y'all"...!

 

"You" is still singular e.g. "I want you to go down on me." as opposed to the plural "I want y'all to go down on me."

 

I believe that when you say "I want all y'all to go down on me" you are by nature including everyone in the club, room, choir, etc. to go down on you. By restricting it to just the second person plural, you're still delineating a select group of oral sex enthusiasts.

 

In this thread, I believe it would be proper to say to the couple, "We're watching y'all's trainwreck in progress."

 

W

[Alura 2,775]

Actually, "y'all" is never singular. This can be confusing because it is often said to a person who is alone at the time. An example would be "Y'all come to see us, y'heah?" While it may be said to a person who is leaving alone, it is understood that the invitation is extended to his significant other and, if any, kids. If we didn't want the spouse to "come to see us" also, we'd have said, "You come to see us, y'heah?"

 

If we said, "All y'all come to see us, y'heah?" we'd better have a lot of beer and buffalo burgers on hand because the entire tribe is likely to show up.

 

Alura

[Coupleerotic22 1,419]

Actually, "y'all" is never singular. This can be confusing because it is often said to a person who is alone at the time. An example would be "Y'all come to see us, y'heah?" While it may be said to a person who is leaving alone, it is understood that the invitation is extended to his significant other and, if any, kids. If we didn't want the spouse to "come to see us" also, we'd have said, "You come to see us, y'heah?"

 

If we said, "All y'all come to see us, y'heah?" we'd better have a lot of beer and buffalo burgers on hand because the entire tribe is likely to show up.

 

Alura

 

Yep. Y'all as singular is a movie misconception. I'm born and raised in the South and in 45 years living in Dixie, I have never heard any native speaker of Southern English use y'all as singular except when making fun of non-Southerns who were trying to speak Southern.

[dlflorida 52]

My wife recently went 3500 miles to be with her favorite lover who had moved away. There was a vanilla event she participated in at his location unrelated to the LS.

It was my idea for her to go. I emailed the guy and asked if he had any interest in her visiting. He of course was all for it so I got her the plane ticket. She left early on a Thursday and due to some airline issues, she didn't get in until the next day. She stayed with him for 4 nights and had a lot of fun. "Love" is not an issue so I had no problem with her going and having fun. He paid for everything during her visit (meals, camping and whatever else) which was a pleasant surprise.

Of course when she got back it was an intense "Welcome home" session...lol

 

I agree with most posters that the OP's friends are headed for major issues

[Zoe&Wash 93]

Yep. Y'all as singular is a movie misconception. I'm born and raised in the South and in 45 years living in Dixie, I have never heard any native speaker of Southern English use y'all as singular except when making fun of non-Southerns who were trying to speak Southern.

 

I might actually start asking the Finnlanders and Swedes up here, "We're going out for fish fry, y'all wanna come along with?" and see what the result is.

 

Oh, yes, and the other posters are right about this problem. This might work for some, but YMMV, and it's a pretty high cost to pay if you're wrong.

 

W

[JustAskJulie 2,595]

I think if they are both excited (your married friends that is) and it's within their comfort zone then go with it. I can see where they would be apprehensive about extending their time away from each other from a 1 nighter to a 7 nighter. Even more so to be that far away from home. If I were her I'd be wondering about the "what ifs" what if things don't go well and she wants to come home? Could she? I'd try to have some sort of strategic "out" plan just in case.

[MN Tom 251]

Good idea on the "out plan", Ill bring that up to them.

 

Considering they are going to a resort, I imagine she could pay for another room or something (or send the boyfriend packing for one) if there was a problem. Since I've never been there though, I dont know how easy or costly that would be.

[Gordo 618]

Way beyond my comfort zone. Especially with them admitting love is already a factor.

 

It may not turn into a problem but it has all the factors that point to that so why take the chance.

 

I think we'll be hearing a lot more about this one in a few months. (assuming you keep us up to date on it.)

[Dont.Stop 339]

Maybe this should be in the poly section. Because it's not just swinging anymore.

[MN Tom 251]

Maybe this should be in the poly section. Because it's not just swinging anymore.

 

Yeah, they could be considered poly in a way. Although from what I gather, the 2 guys talk but rarely do much of anything else with each other, and they have no intent on living together. So beginner poly maybe?

 

Another thing of note, I was talking with her the other day and she mentioned that she and the boyfriend are really enjoying the fantasy of swapping with others while they are in hedo.

 

When she said that I kind of paused, to me it's good (meaning they aren't thinking exclusivity), on the other hand Im guessing they are going to act like they are spouses while there, which may delve them into the fantasy a bit deeper.

[MN Tom 251]

Bit of an update on this, the trip is coming very soon, just over a week away.

 

We've been talking with the couple quite a bit, and we aren't liking where it's going. Seems the gal and her boytoy are deeper in love than we had thought, and the hubby is feeling threatened. He still wants them to go on the trip though, which is just mind boggling to us.

 

People are weird.

[Chicup 42]

The most interesting way to watch a train wreck is slow motion.

 

Perhaps your friend wants to lose his wife and is being devious.

[MN Tom 251]

The most interesting way to watch a train wreck is slow motion.

 

Perhaps your friend wants to lose his wife and is being devious.

 

Yeah, only he knows if that is the case. Not sure what he would have to gain if so, but maybe he's just looking for an excuse so he can blame her or something.

 

It's not something either of us perceive from him, but we only know him so well.

 

We think he feels trapped. We are guessing his wife doesn't want to give up the boyfriend, and will blame him for ruining it for her if he interferes. The biggest unknown for us is the boyfriend, since we don't really talk with him beyond friendly social settings.

[Chicup 42]

We think he feels trapped. We are guessing his wife doesn't want to give up the boyfriend, and will blame him for ruining it for her if he interferes. The biggest unknown for us is the boyfriend, since we don't really talk with him beyond friendly social settings.

 

I could see that. The best outcome would be they go on their trip, realize its not all its cracked up to be together, and thats that. The problem is usually that doesn't happen on a trip to a tropical location, it happens on a monday night when the garbage has to go out, you are dead tired from work and have a headache.

[slevin 1,374]

I could see that. The best outcome would be they go on their trip, realize its not all its cracked up to be together, and thats that. The problem is usually that doesn't happen on a trip to a tropical location, it happens on a monday night when the garbage has to go out, you are dead tired from work and have a headache.

 

Unless he is a pain in the ass to stay with in the same room. Snores, bad habits around the room, eats in bed...

[MN Tom 251]

We've thought about the "maybe too much time with him will cause them to break up" angle.

 

And it might be something that the Mr is hoping for.

 

Although yes, unless the boyfriend is a pain to sleep with or something, I wouldnt think that a vacation in a tropical locale would lead there. You never know though. If he does have some awful habits, he can probably hide them from her for the short overnights they've done so far. A week is a different matter though, pretty hard to hide any bad things over that time.

[Playful1 434]

i recently went on a 6 day trip with the male half of a couple. they have something between an open relationship and typical swinging. they dont look for other bf/gfs but if one happens, so be it. he has never gone on a trip with a third before, and while i am basically his gf, she and i are friends, but not incredibly close.

 

she was a little uncomfortable with it, but trusted him. he called her once over the trip because of an impending hurricane back home, but otherwise their interaction was some texts while we were on the trip. it was also not a cheap trip, by any means. overall, it was a massive step for them.

 

as long as everyone is open with each other, it can work fine. but they need to trust each other. figure out how much communication they need with each other during the trip, etc.

[MN Tom 251]

Ok, I believe more of the truth is coming out now.

 

 

The gal called us yesterday to talk, she's leaving on the trip tomorrow.

 

Well, basically she informed us that she doesn't feel much passion for her hubby anymore. She loves him as the father of her children, but her passion is for the boyfriend. She doesn't want a divorce, but isn't sure what to do. And she did tell him about a month ago, he's been dealing with it and unsure what to do himself. We also talked with him after this, and he's trying to hold it all together. Sort of putting his head in the sand I guess, maybe hoping it will get better..

 

 

Have to say we are not liking this one bit. Our advice was to stop all outside activity and hit up counseling, but neither of them wants to. And she is still going on the trip, and hubby insists since most of it isnt refundable at this point. She is really on the fence about the trip, so much so that we doubt she will even be able to enjoy it. She feels guilty about her hubby, and doesn't want to hurt him, but knows that she does.

 

Boyfriend is doing what you would expect. Acting like it's non of his business and becoming less communicative with the hubby. He's becoming more of an arse in our book, personally we think he should back away once he realizes that he's affecting the marriage.

[Chicup 42]

Its like a textbook example of what not to do on every level, and why singles can be a problem if you let them enter the 'friend' stage.

 

Personally, as someone observing this sort of thing directly and indirectly, the term 'boyfriend' or 'girlfriend' is never a good thing in swinging.

 

The wife involved here is obviously weak and unwilling to let her own pleasure and desires come second. The husband is weak because he did not stop this earlier and can't figure out how to stop it now. The 'boyfriend' is what you would expect in this situation, thinking with his dick.

 

Once this gets to divorce, of course swinging will be blamed

[Alura 2,775]

Once again Chicup has called it like it is. The late Mrs. Alura and I always felt there was no place in swinging for singles. Surely, some couples manage with them for years, but the problems that crop up far outstrap the good parts. If one doesn't risk his own marriage and losing the one he loves dearly, he can never understand what Swingers have to deal with. Nor can he understand how deep the communication must be between a husband and wife who can swing successfully.

 

Mrs. Alura was more adamant about this than I. She once came down heavily on Mr. Playmate when he suggested she was his "girlfriend." He had not thought it out and was joking, but she made it clear that she was not his girlfriend, and never would be. After a long talk and clear understanding, we were able to continue to play with the couple for a long time. There was another instance where it became clear that "Hell hath no fury..." like a wife who has been asked to cheat because a man's wife has decided the lifestyle is not for her.

 

Without doing extensive research, my gut feeling tells me that a majority of problems we Moderators have had to deal with on this Board, come from single men because of their lack of understanding of the lifestyle. Single women (in my opinion, probably due to their rarity here) not so much.

 

That's why I've "retired" from swinging. I'll no longer be involved unless White Fox and I get married and decide together to enter the lifestyle as a couple. In the unlikely event that this will happen, my guess is that there will be a "No Singles" rule.

 

I love this board and will continue to post based on my experiences over the past thirty years, but swinging is in my past as long as I'm single.

 

Alura

[MN Tom 251]

Yes, I agree to some extent. Singles have their place, but it's begging for trouble when they get emotionally mixed up. Although the same can be said for couples for that matter, I personally know of 2 different couples half pairings right now that have definitely overstepped boundaries and are causing marital strife. And Im sure there are many more out there.

 

What Ive noticed in my playing with single gals is a lot of them stay very much detached, almost painfully detached. And my wife has seen some single males like that too, who keep it as a "play only" type of discussion. Some others though definitely go with the flow.

 

The gal has been texting me quite a bit today, she's a mixed bag of emotions right now. I keep telling her to stay home, she feels her hubby would be even more pissed off if she did. And she still doesn't know about staying with him. Another problem she has is she can talk this way, but once the boyfriend appears, it's like she's put in a trance by him and every other care in the world falls away. She tells me that time becomes meaningless around him.

 

What a mess.

[shrevecouple 252]

Every person's fears about this whole LS right here.

[bbarnsworth 2,653]

Some trainwrecks can't be stopped.

 

What's really sad is the kids that are involved. They have no say in this. They're just victims.

[Alura 2,775]

... once the boyfriend appears, it's like she's put in a trance by him and every other care in the world falls away. She tells me that time becomes meaningless around him.

 

What a mess.

 

This woman is how old, Tom???

 

Alura

[bbarnsworth 2,653]

This woman is how old, Tom???

 

Alura

 

Sounds like 18 to me.

 

More realistically, she's totally spaced out on the drug known as New Relationship Euphoria. It will wear off, but it's going to take time. Once it does, she'll be miserable. Problem is, the marriage will most likely be ruined by that point.

 

This situation is so Swinging 101. Rule #1, if there's a problem, STOP swinging. It doesn't get any more basic than that. Yet, both of them refuse to abide by that simple rule. The result is a bed of nails of their own making. I have no sympathy for them. But, as I said, I feel very sad for the children.

[two4youinswva 3,068]

The gal has been texting me quite a bit today, she's a mixed bag of emotions right now. I keep telling her to stay home

 

No telling what will happen to them, but my advice to you is to extract yourself from this situation. You suggested counseling, they rejected it. Unless these two are your BFFs, there's no reason to be involved in the situation. Even if they are very close friends, I'd step away.

[MN Tom 251]

All participants in the train wreck are mid to late 30's.

 

Their kids are school aged. At this point their kids do not know, but obviously if they do get divorced or start verbally fighting they will.

 

Yes, she is definitely infatuated with the guy. Of course she denies it, she says this is true deep love. Ive tried to reason with her, but she is infatuated and reason makes no sense to her. This whole thing has really given us a lesson in people. Here you have a scenario where she is only seeing the good parts of a guy and as such, can really fall for him. The boyfriend definitely has bad parts, like all of us do, but she doesn't see them because she's not living with him and he hides the bad when she's around.

 

So, of course we expect that if she does leave to marry him, eventually it will all go to crap, and she will probably regret the decision. But who knows.

 

At this point neither of us are contacting them, but they are sending quite a few texts and phone calls our way. And we are on the fence about it. On one hand, we truly want to stay around because we feel we can be somewhat of a stable influence for the kids. Their kids are similar ages to our kids and they play together at times. We think that pulling the kids away wouldnt be fair to the kids. We have a few vanilla friends going through divorces and the alienation effect with kids isnt nice.

 

On the other hand, we have pretty much said all we can say, so now it's just a repeating game. We can try to steer the subject away, but it's difficult at best since it's really consuming them at this point. Of course Im not mentioning all the other friendly discussions weve had with them here, but we do have those too. Just lately it's all been this and not much else.

 

She's now emailing me this morning from mexico.

[Alura 2,775]

Sounds like 18 to me.

 

I was thinking maybe fifteen...

 

Alura