No single males? Why not??

[bunny2 15]

I've seen a LOT of places that put great restrictions on the number of single males that can attend, plus a lot of personals that say "no single males, please". What is the problem with single males?

[RnLinohio 17]

I don't know everyone's reasoning behind it, but i have several reasons for it.

 

First of all, we are in this lifestyle to help me be able to explore my (the women's) bisexuality. I feel that i have a man at home that pleases me very much and right now I am just looking for other women. That being said, we are willing to go with couples with a bi female, for the women to play and men to watch then maybe afterwards, the women play with there own partners. There for a single male is not what we are looking for.

 

Second of all, we feel that a single man just doesn't bring much to the table other than (ok I know I am going to hear it for this one) him just wanting sex. Ok, yes I do agree that it could be said the same thing for women. But i am mainly looking for friends more than sex out of this, so we would be more happy going with a couple more than a single female. This is just IMO, and I hope it doesn't upset to many people.

 

Robin

[BettyAnnMBSC 24]

In my experience, single men generally don't understand what's really happening here.

 

I hear way too many -- "if your husband can't satisfy you then I can" and "can't we get together alone?"from single guys. I also have a problem interacting with many single guys -- a single (never married guy) just never seems to understand that paying the rent or washing clothes or cooking dinner or cleaning house are really important.

 

Sometimes, I find that single guys are way too pushy -- it's all about sex now! and rarely about well what do you like? -- the number of "hey wanna f**k" I get from single guys I never saw before is astounding -- what makes a single guy think I'm a total slut or whore just because my husband and I share this lifestyle?

 

The simple matter is, we are into sharing -- this is not about get what you can -- now, I do understand that there are many women who are after 1:1 time and a single guy is an acceptable choice -- except that many husbands/SOs prefer that we women not get involved with single guys, to much chance of emotional attachments forming on his part. That love word comes up with single guys too often.

 

Sometimes we just wonder "if you're such a great guy, why don't you have a wife or girlfriend" and if you have a wife or girlfriend but are playing alone then you are cheating and most of us don't like that attribute in a mans character.

 

I am not "looking for love" and for the most part, no guy is gonna show me anything I've not seen before. I'm not "a lonely housewife" or a "horny slut". But that seems to be the mentality of most single guys looking for playmates. My husband doesn't fail to satisfy me and your pecker probably really isn't "10 inches long and thick as a beer bottle" and if it is then please leave it in your pants around me. 10" is the distance from my elbow to wrist!

 

If you want to have a chance with a couple then there are some things single men must do:

* read about the lifestyle and begin to understand what it is really about.

* never ever ever treat her like a whore or slut unless that is what she wants.

* never ever ever assume that you're "the best lover ever" -- you're a different lover who'se been invited to share. That's all!

* she probably isn't interested in falling in love with you and living happily ever after.

* if you're a homophobe then there is likely to be a problem -- when playing with couples, sometimes the husband will see your penis and you will see his sometimes, they will even bump into each other....

 

Just a few of my thoughts -- looking forward to reading those of others.

[OhioCouple 40]

This is a pretty touch subject for me.

 

While I think single men can be and are swingers, I also think that there is a vast majority that think it is a cheap and easy way to get laid. Having attended a club on a night that allows single males and belonging to two different pay sites, my overall observation is that I am not someone's visual or written masturbation tool.

 

If you don't want to spend the cash to do so, go to Adult Friend Finder or any other pay site that offers a free or trial period and you'll get a good idea of why most couples do not prefer to receive mail from single males. Be sure not to block the single males. I guarantee you that you will get a ton of responses in addition to a lot of pictures that you just would prefer not to see. This alone is enough to taint the image of the single male. Top that off with a club on a night where singles are allowed and it just becomes a done deal in the way of thinking.

 

There are many great singles on this board....unfortunately there are a few that have once again tarnished the image of the single male. I am sorry for them, but facts are just facts. I've never been duped by a single female....but then they are not usually flocking in droves looking to seek a swinging relationship. I have been duped numerous times by single men.

[BettyAnnMBSC 24]

oh, I forgot!

 

with clubs and parties -- if you invite every single male that wants to get laid then you'll have 100:1 male:female and hardly anyone has any fun.

 

now, if she's into the train scene that that's ok -- but I've only met a few women like that....

[Flori_DAMAN 26]

As I have said, tomorrow you could be single, if you still want to swing and happen to be male you will be subjected to narrow minded sharp tongued remarks that will not take you into consideration.

 

Take me for instance. I daily read posts by certain people that jump at every post that mentions single men as an excuse to lump them together and insult them openly without consideration as to why they are single or what they really do in the lifestyle.

 

I don't happen to swing, however I have (with partners for the most part), for over 20 years. Imagine the sting when people you feel close to just stick barbs into you by lumping you into a category without even considering your feelings.

 

It just plain hurts.

[pna42 67]

Most single guys aren't into 'swinging' as much as they're into just getting laid. I'm a single guy and I've seen it first hand. I think a lot of it is just wanting to live out a fantasy and then be on their merry way. For me, I like to get to know people and have a little communication. I like to be friends with the people I'm with. We're not all evil, ugly, little trolls like I get the impression I get here sometimes. Some of us [ok a FEW] are actually decent people.

[EternallySingle 32]

Sometimes we just wonder "if you're such a great guy, why don't you have a wife or girlfriend"

 

Ok, I've heard a lot of valid reasons so far but that one just is so 1800s. I don't swing primarily because of people who throw around statements like that.

 

I have nothing against people who say they prefer not to meet with single men because they don't feel they have nothing to contribute to their swinging experience, but when you start criticizing why we are single, you are insulting those of us who had to make hard decisions concerning family or business responsibilities and those of us who became single due to the death of a loved one.

 

And who says that because we are men we HAVE to find someone else after a breakup or tragedy? I don't see you making that same judgement about women. Don't go there with us unless you want to have your reasons for swinging questioned as well.

[BettyAnnMBSC 24]

As I have said, tomorrow you could be single, if you still want to swing

 

Now, I have found that divorced/widowed men are NOT the same as single men in general.

 

What many of us complain most about is not the simple fact that the man is single -- but instead, how single men generally act. Those unsolicited nude photos, the fakers and game players, and those guys who ask all too forwardly "hey bitch, - wanna f*ck?" -- those are the single guys we have trouble with.

 

There are guys within a couple that act that way sometimes -- but it's not a "once-in-awhile" thing with single guys. That behavior seems to be the cours de jour

 

Understand too -- there seem to be more couples looking for 1) single bi female for FMF or 2) couple for FF while hubbys watch or 3) couple for full swap; than there are couples looking for a str8 single male for MFM.

 

Part of the issue then is opportunity -- the single guy is not the commodity of the day and is very often nongrata persona.

 

As for the 1:1 issue -- IMHO, that's not swinging that's fooling around or some on the side even when it's an open and acceptable arrangement. And all too often, the 1:1 is really cheating and few of us want to participate in that scene....

 

Just a few opinions for what they're worth.... I'm not saying it's right -- just expressing my opinion. If you wanna talk about the sting of inequality then maybe we should consider the plight of the short (under 5'5" man) man -- coupled or not.... or the pain that some women of size often endure.

 

There is reason and reality to social inequality. Some people make that topic their life's work. Sometimes it's painful but unless we seek to clearly understand mores and values, issues and desires; unless we seek to truly understand the issue at question, there can be no adapting by those who face these inequities. We must remain aware of the very real emotional effects of inequlity and discriminatory behavior, but we must also try to understand the issues beyond simply exclaiming "it's not fair."

 

Maybe it's not fair -- so let's create some understanding...

 

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I wonder if women who weigh 125# ever consider, that when you say "I'm fat, I'm so fat" in front of a woman that weighs 180-200# plus that what you're telling her is "damn! you're really fat!"

[BettyAnnMBSC 24]

but when you start criticizing why we are single, you are insulting those of us who had to make hard decisions concerning family

 

The original post asked a "why" question. I provided some "why" answers. Bottom line is that a couple may elect to include whoever they want to for whatever reason they want (or don't) and the potential partners reserve the same privilege.

 

What if we changed this topic slightly? What if we were discussing the why issue of race, age, sexual orientation, education level, social class, height, weight, hair color, breast size, penis size, financial stability... need I go on?

 

Marital status is one of many considerations considered when selecting a potential partner. It's not (IMHO) reasonable to ask a question and then attack the answers provided. Even if the answers are wrong.

 

Do any of us think that couples or women never consider "if you're single then why?" It is a fact that women are attracted to men that are already with another woman -- go figure! It's that old "if she wants him then I do too" and many men will recall the same situation over the years...

 

In answering this question, I am not attacking single men or defending couples -- I'm simply stating my observations. Use them if you want or ignore them if you want -- but please don't take offense to my observations, they aren't directed at anyone in particular....

 

unless of course, the shoe fits

[pna42 67]

Man, Betty Ann. You're really well thought out on this. Remind me never to argue with you. LOL! My brain hurts from reading all that. Whew!!!

[Flori_DAMAN 26]

After reading the biting remarks daily lately about single men, my position on this board seems almost meaningless. I consider myself an advocate for good single men. Many couples have befriended me as well as single single females.

 

Rarely is a compliment offered. Yet when you read the experiences of couples with single men some of the hottest stories pop up. I think it is a matter of fact that jerk single guys tend to be jerk single guys, but why dwell on them. We are here and its like we have leprosy. It is so much fun for people to relish in insulting those they consider inferior due to circumstances....it nauseates me.

 

If I were a good single guy that had never been exposed to the lifestyle I would think it is for jerks only reading this board, maybe that is why so many seem to be coming on board lately. No one offers advice. They just feel it is there duty to mankind to let everyone know they wouldn't ever ever ever do a single guy because they are all a bunch of lying, scrubs....I'M NOT.

 

Lets see some compassion for the guys that are nice. (AS IF HUH?) I don't think anyone of us hasn't been single at some point. Once that ring goes on the finger it does not make an asshole suddenly a prized bull. It would seem that once the ring comes off a perfectly good man should just put his tail between his legs and listen to the holier than thou, righteous preaching from those people that are in a good relationship.

 

I think the rudeness and lack of sensitivity is appalling. Especially when I hear it from friends. I wonder if people can really put themselves in other people's shoes. Certain people just get off on trying to reduce any semblance of self confidence anyone that doesn't fall into their elite category may happen to have. Not me though.. I would rather be single than be with any one of the ranters I have heard on this board that are so shallow minded and hurtful anyhow...

[BettyAnnMBSC 24]

Maybe as an idea for undertanding "the shoe on the other foot" might I suggest this...

 

If you want to truly understand why many couples and women don't explore single men....

 

create a couple or female screen name and profile with Yahoo. Then take that screen into a chat room for "romance in x-town" Don't say anything except "HI" to the room and then wait.

 

See what the single men are actually doing to damage the road for everyone. You'll be appaled!

 

All of this said, please don't think that I never meet with single guys. We actually prefer MFM or FMF over MFMF -- MFMF gets too busy

 

And if we ever do meet and he or I decides that "it's not right" then it's probably not solely because you are single... Find the other issues or ask...

[bear_n_bunny 43]

From my perspective (Bear), it is really rather simple. This lifestyle is about swinging; couples getting together to play. (Yeah, I know there are the usual number of married bi-females out looking to demonstrate their ability to lick the chrome off a '57 Studebaker, but that's not the end-all and be-all of swinging.) And the operative word here is COUPLES. Yes, I know there are the usual percentage of couples looking for single bi-females (see previous reference to the '57 Studebaker... ), and even the OCCASIONAL single male, but this last is pretty rare. Most swinging couples are looking for other COUPLES to play with, and for the most part do not need any single men around.

 

We've all seen the web sites with the cock shots and all that. Personally, having been a single male myself not so long ago, I am of the opinion that the single guys who come around swingers are those who have a hard time getting laid to start with vis a vis single women, and seem to think that women who are into swinging are easy fucks. Anyone who has been involved in swinging for more than about five minutes knows what b.s. that notion is. Sure, I've been in a swing group or two where the women who were running things starting thinking with their cunts and brought in a lot of single men, which just ruined things for everyone in time (soon enough, they saw the error of their ways... ). Fortunately that does not happen very often.

 

Another problem is with clubs that allow single men in, and don't control them (such as keeping them at the bar, and letting any couple who is interested approach them). What ends up happening is that the guys start cruising the couples, hitting on the ladies, often with bad technique, which pisses off the husbands, with disagreements resulting shortly thereafter. This is why many lifestyle clubs don't allow single men in, or only under certain circumstances. Frankly, I'd be happy if the single guys took a hike. By and large they are not wanted, and those swing couples who do want them, know where to find them (yahoo, AFF or sexyads come to mind).

[Bob123 15]

Hopefuly I have learned my lesson. I think that I have. As a single male you are not going to get anywhere in swinging by standing up for yourself or telling people you are not as bad as they think. I really hope I will not complain about how hard things are for men in general or single men in swinging.

 

I feel for you John. I sincerly do. Before I became a member of this board I was reading through it for a while. If I remember correctly I was crying after reading one of your posts. I am sorry for what you have been through.

 

I don't know what to think anymore.

[RnLinohio 17]

OK,

 

I have not posted a lot of msg on the boards on this web site, but I have read a lot of them. And from what I have read, there is not a lot of single male "bashing". From what I have seen, there may be one or two sly comments from some, then every guy on here takes it to heart, and gets upset over it. It question was asked, why no single males, and as it started out, everyone was giving why they are not interested in single males. No one has said all single males, just some of the ones that they have encountered. That I have seen, not one person on THIS thread has yet to name names.

 

And I would like to pose a question to all you single males that have been posting your disagreements with what was said.

 

If what the other posters have said does not pertain to you, then why are you beating your brow over it. A couple of you have even said that you have witnessed some men acting like A**holes. So you are admitting that some men do act that way. If you are not one of them, then why are you trying to defend them?

 

We personally do have friends that are single males in this life style, but i am not interested in being with them. So there for we are not saying all single males are that way, just some of them. And i feel that is what the other posters on this thread are saying also.

[Bob123 15]

Maybe they feel left out, hurt, unwanted, worthless

[bear_n_bunny 43]

Originally posted by BettyAnnMBSC

Maybe as an idea for undertanding "the shoe on the other foot" might I suggest this...

 

If you want to truly understand why many couples and women don't explore single men....

 

create a couple or female screen name and profile with Yahoo. Then take that screen into a chat room for "romance in x-town" Don't say anything except "HI" to the room and then wait.

 

See what the single men are actually doing to damage the road for everyone. You'll be appaled!

 

 

Try this one on for size. Many years ago, in the pre-Internet days, there was a BBS here in Houston called "Matchmaker" (It still exists today, as a series of web sites for locations all over the world). A buddy of mine and I were discussing it one day, and he told me some of his experiences when he did just what Betty Ann suggested, created a "female" account for himself. I didn't believe some of the stuff he told me that he'd seen and experienced, so I decided to try it myself. Dialed in, created an account as a female, and the first message, THE VERY FIRST MESSAGE I got read "HAVE YOU EVER BEEN FUCKED IN THE ASS WITH A BIG BLACK DICK?". No "Hi, how are you?", nothing. Just that. Needless to say, after I tore this moron 14 new BIG BLACK ASSHOLES, I did not hear from him again. However, that was by no means the only time I got messages of that sort. And I've lost count of the women who have related similar stories to me. Of course, you don't have to be into swinging to put up with this sort of thing, as we all know. And no, not all single guys pull stunts like this; I know I didn't, and during the years I was single, finding willing bed partners was NEVER a problem, nor did I ever have to go near a swingers club or web site to find plenty of ladies more than willing to test the bedsprings to destruction with me. Which again makes me wonder why so many single guys come around swing sites to start with. It's not like this is a target-rich environment where single men are concerned (most couples are NOT interested), and there are plenty of sites (adultfriendfinder, sexyads, yahoo, etc, etc) where a single guy would have a lot more luck in the nooky department.

[Bob123 15]

If you were an elf and wanted to be a dentist. And only humans were dentists and were sick of elves always trying to be dentists. Yet you were a better dentist than all the other elves and were as good as any human. Wouldn't you be upset that you were denied the chance to be a dentist because most elves are not good at it?

[bear_n_bunny 43]

Originally posted by Bob123

If you were an elf and wanted to be a dentist. And only humans were dentists and were sick of elves always trying to be dentists. Yet you were a better dentist than all the other elves and were as good as any human. Wouldn't you be upset that you were denied the chance to be a dentist because most elves are not good at it?

 

I wonder if it ever occurred to the elf that maybe quite a few of the humans already had good dentists they were satisfied with, not to mention how difficult it is to find good dentists (or swing partners) and did not want to change just for the hell of it, or to just make our hypothetical elf feel good about himself...

[Bob123 15]

The point is that the elf is a good dentist. But everyone always goes around saying how elfs cannot be dentists.

[BettyAnnMBSC 24]

As a single male you are not going to get anywhere in swinging by standing up for yourself or telling people you are not as bad as they think.

 

Socio-Anthropologically speaking, (IMHO) you are incorrect in that statement. What would be true is if you said:

 

"As a single male you are not going to get anywhere in swinging by standing up for all single men or telling people they are not as bad as they think."

 

What does in fact woirk is if you take a personal approach to the issue -- one that takes the reverse stance that you claim in your statement quoted above. Tell me why you're a great guy. Show me why I should invite you into my life.

 

We must understand that statistically speaking, more couples are looking for women than men -- the thing is, often in order to get that other woman involved, we must accept her hubby/bf too. Then there are the couples that swing MF/MF in the many variations. All of those previous styles leave single guys out by default -- just like we don't let motorcyle riders join in the bicycle race unless they bring a bicycle to ride. It's a statistically insignificant percentage that swings strictly MFM and those are often biM+F+biM

 

It is fair and reasonable for you to claim that "Bob123 is a nice/friendly/handsome/hung/whatever guy" but it is not reasonable for you to argue that "most single guys fit in fine with couples" because the reality is that most do not but some do. Further, many couples simply are not looking for a guy at all. You're argument then falls on deaf ears -- there is receiver apprehension for no reason other than the listener knows that part of your message (the part that implies men in general as opposed to "some men") is flawed.

 

To argue that couples should allow single men in their bed when the couple is really interested in FMF or MFMF and not MFM is akin to going to a lesbian club and insisting that the women there are unfairly discriminating against men -- and then wondering why you can't get laid in the Lesbian bar.

 

This following sentiment is not directed toward anyone in particular (unless the shoe fits); I'm going to find out shortly whether this thread is flame bait or an honest discussion seeking real answers. I am a woman, I am a swinger, I am educated and articulate, and I know none of you here. I have offered to share my opinions and observations. You may now each elect to learn from (or listen but select to ignore) what I am offering or you can continue to argue that "all men are great for swingers, couples shouldn't discriminate against single men" when we all know that couples are free to chose anyone or nobody at whim.

 

We also know that it is a fact that couples do not invite as many single men into the lifestyle. That fact should not be subject of this debate -- subject of this debate is "why".

 

Either way, I can follow this thread as flame bait/chain yanking or I can offer my insight. I like a good debate as much as anyone -- even a flame war! Others may offer insight too. The ball is in y'alls court...

[bear_n_bunny 43]

Originally posted by BettyAnnMBSC

This following sentiment is not directed toward anyone in particular (unless the shoe fits); I'm going to find out shortly whether this thread is flame bait or an honest discussion seeking real answers. I am a woman, I am a swinger, I am educated and articulate, and I know none of you here. I have offered to share my opinions and observations. You may now each elect to learn from (or listen but select to ignore) what I am offering or you can continue to argue that "all men are great for swingers, couples shouldn't discriminate against single men" when we all know that couples are free to chose anyone or nobody at whim.

 

We also know that it is a fact that couples do not invite as many single men into the lifestyle. That fact should not be subject of this debate -- subject of this debate is "why".

 

Either way, I can follow this thread as flame bait/chain yanking or I can offer my insight. I like a good debate as much as anyone -- even a flame war! Others may offer insight too. The ball is in y'alls court...

 

Well, in that case the debate is already over, because I have already answered the question of "why" couples don't invite many single men into the lifestyle, in an earlier post on this thread... Although, to be precise, the question should actually be, "why don't most swing couples invite single men to join with them in intimate fun?" But again, the question has already been answered; it's just that some people don't want to accept the truth of the matter.

[BettyAnnMBSC 24]

The point is that the elf is a good dentist. But everyone always goes around saying how elfs cannot be dentists.

 

My husband is a guy that plays flute. He was in an Army band for many years as a flute and piccolo player. Now, we all know that "guys don't play flute and if they do then they're gay..." He does play very very well though!

 

Imagine the stereotypes when he became a nurse in the early 80's -- damn! a flute toting band geek who'se also a male nurse. (and does hair and makeup -- good for me!) {seems we don't use that term male nurse anymore -- they won the respect of the public and their peers in the early 90's but it was a hard road}

 

Imagine the troubles he had -- but he overcame by understanding the perceptions and stereotypes and not by insisting that they don't exist. He found ways to make the stereotypes work for him and not against him.

 

He examined the stereotypes and found niches that were suited to what he was -- as a flute player in the Army (girls play flute and they don't join the Army as often, he was promoted very rapidly due to position vacancies) and later as a nurse in the ER and Mobile ICU (seems alot of the ladies don't like that work either). He then progressed into administration (due the advantages he had as a result of gender inequality as a man in a woman's world) and retired at 38 years old!

 

Your elf needs to find his niche -- and he probably shouldn't insist that "all elfs are good dentists" since most folks seem to know better. I understand that elves need dentists too. Maybe the gnomes would welcome an elf -- I hear they don't have enough good dentists and they really respect elfs. And what about the fairies? Fairies deserve a good dentist -- even if elves don't like fairies much... Doesn't look like the humans need many more dentists -- they seem to have plenty... IMHO, if your elf really wants to be a dentist for humans then he should keep at it -- but it's going to be a tough road.

 

[EternallySingle 32]

I know most couples are not interested in meeting single men. I know most single women in the lifestyle are not interested in meeting single men. I am not here for them. I'm here to share my opinion and read the opinions of others. If I make friends or enemies along the way, thats life, and I'll deal with it as it comes. I have a life outside of this board and I only come here when I'm downloading large files, like I am now.

 

I don't hold anything anyone says against them, but if someone makes a detrimental remark about a group, expect members of that group to say "hey, clarify that." You can't lump all single men, or all single women, or couples, or blacks, whites, asians, hispanics, catholics, protestants, etc. together and not expect someone to say "So, thats what you think of everyone like me?"

 

Just use a little more tact and take a little more time when making a post. Isn't that what a lot of couples and single women say to men about sending emails and writing ads?

[bear_n_bunny 43]

BTW, Bunny wanted to make sure that everyone knew that it was I, the e-vil Bear, making these posts, and not her, the sweet and innocent Bunny, someone who would never allow a single politically incorrect thought to cross her sweet and darling mind...

[BettyAnnMBSC 24]

Bear_n_Bunny -- I think that the "why" answers that have been provided have been very thorough and well prepared. It seems to me the question that some want addressed is not as much the "why" but instead a question of "what can I do to make myself attractive to couples and swingers?"

 

Some folks will read this thread and apply some of our points in reverse (ie: not ask immediately if you "want a big black cock in your ass?") and instead apply the socialization lessons they learned as children.

 

Some folks, I fear, are here for nothing other than distraction and creation of un-needed drama (another thing single men often bring to a couple relationship). I do understand that feelings get hurt on issues like this -- I've been there myself as a 225# woman -- too many times.

 

I must say, I am enjoying the thread -- made me actually think about some issues. Thanks for the story about the BBS

[Bob123 15]

Quote

Your elf needs to find his niche -- and he probably shouldn't insist that "all elves are good dentists" since most folks seem to know better.

 

I am not arguing that all elves are good dentists. I am arguing that just because most elves that humans know are not good dentists doesn't mean that no elves are good dentists. You are telling me that I am arguing the basic premise that you in fact are arguing.

 

You are arguing that all single males are disrespectful when you should be arguing that some of the single males you know are disrespectful.

 

I say that all males are single when they are not with their SO. So then it would seem that swinging is for women and the men they invite to join them and not for couples after all. This is fine, but lets call it what it is.

[bear_n_bunny 43]

Originally posted by EternallySingle

I know most couples are not interested in meeting single men. I know most single women in the lifestyle are not interested in meeting single men. I am not here for them. I'm here to share my opinion and read the opinions of others. If I make friends or enemies along the way, thats life, and I'll deal with it as it comes. I have a life outside of this board and I only come here when I'm downloading large files, like I am now.

 

I don't hold anything anyone says against them, but if someone makes a detrimental remark about a group, expect members of that group to say "hey, clarify that." You can't lump all single men, or all single women, or couples, or blacks, whites, asians, hispanics, catholics, protestants, etc. together and not expect someone to say "So, thats what you think of everyone like me?"

 

Just use a little more tact and take a little more time when making a post. Isn't that what a lot of couples and single women say to men about sending emails and writing ads?

 

Except that I don't recall anyone saying that ALL single men were obnoxious twits, nor was anyone pointed out by name as being such. However, anyone who has spent much time in the online (or realtime, for that matter) singles and/or swingers environment already KNOWS that there are quite a few single guys out here who ARE, in fact, obnoxious twits. Therefore you have no case.

[Flori_DAMAN 26]

OK, lets say someone named Lonelygal wrote this:

 

I have been in a swinging lifestyle for 5 years. My husband left me for the secretary at work and I would like to continue my interest in the lifestyle but don't quite know how.

 

Now lets say the poster's name were Lonelyguy.

 

I have been in a swinging lifestyle for 5 years. My wife left me because she found someone better. I want to continue swinging but it seems that couples have no interest in me.

 

 

Although both of these posts are not what the board is about the lonely gal would get much more attention than the lonely guy.

 

She would be smothered by the females that want to protect her, of course, without bias hehe. She would be flooded by guys that see a vulnerable lady out there, and if anyone dared to confront her they would be lambasted. Couples would trip over each other to give her advice.

 

The guy on the other hand would be advised to watch out for self pity. The strong suggestion would be that he should have a female if he wants to swing. He would be put under the microscopic swinging inspectors that would suggest he probably did something wrong to begin with.

 

As I suggested this board is not about meeting people but discussing swinging. Us males that have been swinging for years and are still interested are just as capable of discussing it as the females that may be in the same boat or, just wondering.

 

It seems as if any single guy that expresses his feelings is categorized immediately as a horny failure, while a thwarted female is some kind of swinging icon.

 

If this were a meeting board I could have more tolerance.

 

Ahh....

[Bob123 15]

There are quite a few women who are goldiggers. Yet if I bring that up I am sexist. Why can you bring up a folly in a group of men and get away with it, when all men are not like that. The fact is there is a double standard.

[BettyAnnMBSC 24]

Ok, I've heard a lot of valid reasons so far but that one just is so 1800s. I don't swing primarily because of people who throw around statements like that.

 

That was posted earlier today regarding the fact that some women ask "why are you single" when considering single men. To be followed by

 

but if someone makes a detrimental remark about a group,

requesting more tact in message replies.

 

First, let me say that stating that some women ask that question is no more or less detrimental than saying that some people discriminate based on race. Certainly, you'll agree that racism does in fact exist in our present society. I imagine that you'll agree too that it's wrong. Stating that it does in fact exist is nothing more than statement of a fact -- an observable, quantifiable fact of social inequality.

 

If someone were to ask "why do some people not like people that are fat?" -- would the respondant be wrong to answer with his opinions? How can we possibly expect to understand a circumstance if we can't present the facts and opinions involved? Should fat people then be offended by the presented opinions?

 

If we can't have an open dialog that includes all opinions - whether they are right or not they are still prevailing opinion -- then we can not hope to even understand the tip of this issue.

 

I do believe I have made it clear that these are only my opinions or observations -- if anyone takes issue with them then present some opposing dialog -- I may just change my mind if you can convince me. I probably won't be too receptive though to "that's not right" as your sole argument.

 

So, are you prepared to argue that no woman considers the reasons why a man is single in her decision making? I personally know a few that do...

[Flori_DAMAN 26]

Originally posted by Bob123

There are quite a few women who are goldiggers. Yet if I bring that up I am sexist. Why can you bring up a folly in a group of men and get away with it, when all men are not like that. The fact is there is a double standard.

 

Bob, gold diggers need gold. There aint much of that going round here. I have seen no men trying to claim they are rich. What the fuck does that have to do with swinging?

[Bob123 15]

Quote

If we can't have an open dialog that includes all opinions - whether they are right or not they are still prevailing opinion -- then we can not hope to even understand the tip of this issue

 

That is what we are doing. You gave your opinion now he is giving his.

 

Quote

If someone were to ask "why do some people not like people that are fat?" -- would the respondent be wrong to answer with his opinions? How can we possibly expect to understand a circumstance if we can't present the facts and opinions involved? Should fat people then be offended by the presented opinions?

 

No a respondent would not be wrong to answer with his opinions. It is also not wrong if someone responded to his opinions saying that they are wrong. You are saying he should not be able to state his opinion if his opinion is that yours are wrong. Fat people can be offended by anything they want.

[Bob123 15]

Quote

Bob, gold diggers need gold. There aint much of that going round here. I have seen no men trying to claim they are rich. What the fuck does that have to do with swinging?

 

Her trying to say that single men think women in swinging are whores is like me saying that single women thing men in general are a meal ticket.

 

The point is a lot of men want to use women just for sex and a lot of women want to use men just for money.

 

I bet that if I said I am sick of gold digging women I would be called a misogynist. Yet these women say this about single men in general and then on top of that act like men are out of line just for disagreeing with them.

[BettyAnnMBSC 24]

You are arguing that all single males are disrespectful when you should be arguing that some of the single males you know are disrespectful.

 

I missed where I made that argument -- I wrote a reply to why "some couples" don't invite single men to play with them. It was not a discussion of "the men" but of "the couples".

 

It became a debate about "the men" when some posting took offense to my observations (based in reality) on why "some couples" don't invite single men to play.

 

So, let me put the nuber one reason that many couples don't invite single men to play in as plain language as I can. Then you can tell me how you intend to prove me wrong.

 

A large number of couples are looking to ad another woman to the mix. Since you don't have a coochie, you are not a qualified applicant! When you grow a coochie then you can come play with those couples. They may allow you to come play if you bring a coochie with you. Either way, it's about the coochie! How hard is that to understand?

 

Now, there are some couples who want to add another pecker to the mix. You have a pecker! You are a qualified applicant for those. There are other couples that want to ad a bi-sexual pecker to the mix. If you are bi or willing to be bi, then you are a qualified applicant. These are about the pecker! It's easy to understand.

 

There are some couples that want to bring in a pecker for her and a coochie for him -- if you happen to have both then you are a qualified applicant! That's easy too.

 

Now -- any of these can decide that you're mean, ugly, too tall, too short, too fat, too skinny, too young, too old, too poor, etc. etc. etc. if they want -- it's not about you being single as long as you're a qualified applicant.

 

Some may put even more requirements on their applicants than just the right anatomy -- they may require a particular size, age group, marital status (ie. not cheating or cheating), performance level, etc... You must meet these application requirements too or you're not a qualified applicant. Some don't approve of drugs, smoking or drinking, some require condoms, some require a certain education level.... IT'S THEIR CHOICE, you don't have to apply if you don't like it.

 

Sex isn't an equal opportunity adventure -- you have no inherent right to be included in any intimate relation - Ever! If you are afforded that privilege then you have been granted something special.

 

So, if a few of you will come to understand that sex with any woman you want is not your right but instead her privilege, you might just get better responses!

 

wheee! :evil:

[Bob123 15]

This is not about sex this is about respect. I do not know why people say swinging is not all about sex to single males like we don't know that and then in the next breath act like it is. The fact is females get better treatment pertaining to sex or not.

[Bob123 15]

Quote

So, if a few of you will come to understand that sex with any woman you want is not your right but instead her privilege, you might just get better responses!

 

I don't think that anyone on this thread said or even implied that sex with a woman is his right. If I did I know I did not mean to.

[Flori_DAMAN 26]

It seems that the only people interested in MMF's are couples that are pretty rock solid.

[BettyAnnMBSC 24]

Bob wrote:

 

No a respondant would not be wrong to answer with his opinions. It is also not wrong if someone responded to his opinions saying that they are wrong. You are saying he should not be able to state his opinion if his opinion is that yours are wrong. Fat people can be offended by anything they want.

 

after he obviously missed my statement that read in part:

 

I do believe I have made it clear that these are only my opinions or observations -- if anyone takes issue with them then present some opposing dialog -- I may just change my mind if you can convince me. I probably won't be too receptive though to "that's not right" as your sole argument.

 

So, Bob -- I'm waiting for some rational and reasoned dialog here if in fact

That is what we are doing. You gave your opinion now he is giving his

 

What have you provided to explain why some couples do not invite single men to play with them? You do understand that question I'm sure? The original question was regarding why some couples don't invite single men to play -- it was not about whether they should invite single men or whether single men are good or whether Bob is good.

 

Certainly you can stick to the main topic of "why do some couples not invite single men" instead of trying to redirect and refocus the discussion to your own agenda.

 

I'm sure you've made your agenda clear on these boards in other places. But I've yet to see you answer the question that was asked...

 

So far, I've seen counter-point fallacies that can be described as ad hominem, straw man, slothful induction, post hoc, non-support, and begging the question among others. This thread will make a great instructional page.

 

Now, opposing views, let's get to the question at hand.

 

Bunny2 asks:

 

 

I've seen a LOT of places that put great restrictions on the number of single males that can attend, plus a lot of personals that say "no single males, please". What is the problem with single males?

 

This question does not ask anyone to defend single males -- it simply seeks insight into why "a lot of personals ... say "no single males, please"

 

You can either address this question or you can not!

[Bob123 15]

The lack of sensitivity to single males hurts me. One woman started a thread about how no one asked her to dance at a swingers club. People all responded with very warm and caring sensitivity. No one told her it is not your right to dance with any man you want. No one told her that people just did not want her. No. They gave her advice and helped her feel better about herself the way people should.

[thump29 16]

Until recently we had considered single males up until I decided to give one a chance and he was a jerk. After that experience I do not really know whether we would consider another single male. I do happen to think there are some decent single males in this lifestyle and they do deserve a chance, but you have to understand that it is guys like the one we included that hurt the single males reputation.

[BettyAnnMBSC 24]

This is not about sex this is about respect. I do not know why people say swinging is not all about sex to single males like we don't know that and then in the next breath act like it is. The fact is females get better treatment pertaining to sex or not.

 

Well, what would we have here in the lifestyle if we took out the sex equation -- well, we'd just meet people.

 

I'd propose that swinging IS about sex. It's very much about sex. And very little about anything else.

 

So, why do couples not invite single men to their party -- SEX! they want women and single women are just that and couples bring a woman.

 

Maybe my earlier post with all of the rationalizations was missing that one all important point. Maybe it's not about personality, or build, or any other qualifier as much as it is about SEX! Maybe it's about girls get laid easier than guys everywhere except in the gay bar. And that's just not fair to the guys -- we should all be nicer and let them sleep with us more often {sarcasm}

 

That'd make the whole debate easier wouldn't it? I still have to wonder though -- if all these women are getting laid, but none of the guys are -- there must be one really tired and worn out guy out there Gentlemen, it does seem that from the replies to this and other posts that many women on these boards (myself included) DO invite single guys -- that implies then, if you're not getting invited, it's not because you're single...

[Bob123 15]

I think it says no single males cause most of the things for couples are really for women. Men love women so much more than women love men so men go along with it. The wedding is her day. The engagement and the ring is for her. Men try and last longer in bed and try to learn what to do to please her. It is about what the women want. And women once they find a guy who will impregnate them and support them, want to have sex with other women.

[curious24 17]

you know... i've said this before.. finding the "good nice" single guy is like finding the elusive single bi female... the only difference is that finding the good nice single male you have to weed through all the freak'n bad ones.. but there are no single bi females to "weed" through.. you just don't ever hardly see them...

 

but i think if you were to take a poll some how you would find that the number of good nice single men are about the same as the elusive single bi female..

 

just my .02

[BettyAnnMBSC 24]

The lack of sensitivity to single males hurts me.

 

I am truly sorry you feel hurt by that issue. I assure you that the way many people treat 225# women hurts me and my husband would like to share with you about what it's like to be a 5'4" tall man.

 

I'd like to tell you about how hurt I felt when I wasn't encouraged to go to college when I was in High School (I was told I didn't have what it takes by the HS counselor, she was obviously an idiot) -- only to put it off a few years and then get into a fine University with 150% financial aid and have held Dean's List honors every semester.

 

I'm sure there are plenty of folks on this board and elsewhere that will be more than happy to tell you about hurt. Ask a veteran about heartache. Ask that geeky guy with the pocket protector about hurt. Ask anyone that belongs to a minority group of any kind.

 

HELL -- ASK ANYONE! everyone suffers some pain and heartache in life. We then move on or adapt to it.

 

Either way -- I don't believe that anyone says "I want to hurt single mens feelings so I don't invite them to play with us." So, the pain of the result is not the cause of the result. Let's not get into circular logic here or we will never come to understand why some couples don't invite single men.... That is why we're reading this thread, right?

 

Bob, you are very good at introducing logical fallacy into a debate -- but I see through it. Let's talk about the "why" -- you can do that can't you? If not then concede that you don't know why -- but you know you don't like it.

 

[BettyAnnMBSC 24]

I think it says no single males cause most of the things for couples are really for women. Men love women so much more than women love men so men go along with it. The wedding is her day. The engagement and the ring is for her. Men try and last longer in bed and try to learn what to do to please her. It is about what the women want. And women once they find a guy who will impregnate them and support them, want to have sex with other women.

 

EXCELLENT!!!

 

At least it follows to some degree....

 

Now, do you really believe that women really would prefer other women over men in general? Is that what you're saying here?

 

:p

[Bob123 15]

yes

 

women are nicer to women than they are to men I see it everywhere I go or look or listen

 

So yes I would say women like women more than men on all levels accept they need a man to make sperm for them and they can get men to pay for them and die to protect them and stuff, things they probably couldn't get a woman to do for them.

[BettyAnnMBSC 24]

Now we're getting into some intersting dialog...

 

You know, I have to agree on these issues -- at least from an anthropologic viewpoint.

 

Men hold the role of breadwinner - hunter - protector

Woman of home maker and caretaker

 

Then if that's the case in general, and if we argue that humans are not really inclined to monogamy -- can we argue whether women would rather be with women? It seems for the home and hearth (and cuddle factor) that they would.

 

Though, if we remove men from the equation then we lose reproductive motives as well as the breadwinner function.

 

Is it then that couples don't ask single men to play because what we have is really two issues at key point:

 

1) humans are not inherently monogamous -- he wants to have sex with other women. but since she can reproduce - he'd rather she didn't have sex with other men.

2) women would rather have a woman around. she wants to have sex with other women.

 

He accepts that she can have another woman solely so that he can too -- she accepts that he sleeps with the other woman so that she can too?

 

If this is true (at least in part), then the debate over guys feeling left out is a dead discussion -- there is no resolution to the above scenario that includes a single male addition.

 

It also means that the only purpose for the male in this small segment of interpersonal association is to provide food and protection == IF another male is allowed in, it is only because he brought the new woman.

 

This then leads to a debate (hopefully another thread) in favor of polyamory and polygamy involving multiple women...

 

Of course, this could be too that:

 

Most men find the idea of two women making love as a sexual attraction while at the same time, they find any thought of two men making any sexual contact as very repulsive. Therefor, the male partner in many relationships will not encourage the introduction of another man when he will encourage the introduction of another woman. And we women are known to do many things just "because he likes it so much".... If this then is the case, then again - there is no hope for the single man in a coupled relationship of this type.

[RnLinohio 17]

Quote

Originally posted by Bob123

I think it says no single males cause most of the things for couples are really for women. Men love women so much more than women love men so men go along with it. The wedding is her day. The engagement and the ring is for her. Men try and last longer in bed and try to learn what to do to please her. It is about what the women want. And women once they find a guy who will impregnate them and support them, want to have sex with other women.

 

Ok, this is L now. R has been showing me this post all evening and after this comment by you Bob i have to put me 2 cents in.

 

Ok you complain that the people on here are putting ALL single men in one classification (they are A**holes), but here you are doing the same thing with women. You may have had a bad relationship in the past, but that is not to say all women are like the woman you were with.

 

And the thing about the rings and wedding being just for the women. The marriage and Rings are a custom from the past..... and it was a MAN not a women that started it. Read it in any history book. The brides family NOT the grooms family pays for the wedding.

 

And in closing, i was the one that brought it to my wife to try being with another women. Not her bringing it to me first. She even told me no for a while, and then started thinking about it AFTER i had given up on it. and brought it back up to me, and at that time i was more than willing to share that with her.

 

We have been married for 13 yrs, and yes we have flaws in our relationship just like any other relationship. The difference is we work out our differences together, not me giving in just to please her.

 

Bob i do truly feel sorry that you feel that way about women, but i am pretty sure you will find the right one for you. Just remember not all women are like the one that hurt you. Just be patient and understanding.