What's wrong with love?

[muffinkm 15]

Golly Gee, maybe I just don't get it, but what is wrong with love? After scanning thousands of messages, it appears that actually loving the person you are having sex with (unless I do's have been exchanged) is a real no no. Amazingly you can love your spouse, your child, your dress and even your job, but feel compelled to draw the line when it comes to someone you've spent a great deal of time in extremely intimate positions. Perhaps my wife and I are a bit different we actually allow each other to emotional bond with others. Believe me sex plus love is a whole lot better than sex without feelings.

 

just my opinion.

[TimeflyX2 15]

I was wondering if we were the only people that thought that. It seems that as soon as we make it clear we want to develope a relationship before any other activities most people disappear. Oh well. Their loss.

[JustAskJulie 2,595]

What you are referring to falls more into the category of Polyamory (loving many), rather than swinging where in general sex and love are separated. There are lots of sites out there dedicated to polyamory and perhaps reading through a couple of them will help you understand the distinctions. It might be that that lifestyle is more what you are looking for, and if you look in the right places you will probably find many other couples that share your thoughts.

 

Polyamory.org

 

Polyamory.com

 

The Polyamory Society

[ga_cpl_frknit 17]

polyamory.org is an excellent site, even if you're not considering a polyamorous relationship. I happened to find the site when I was torn between 3 different men I "loved" (okay, I didn't love all 3....there were certain aspects about all 3 that I was attracted to though)

 

I am quite happy in my marriage now and know that I love Stacey more than anything.

 

....okay, ICK....I'm getting all mushy now. Sorry.

[DragonsLair 26]

Quote

Originally posted by ga_cpl_frknit

I am quite happy in my marriage now and know that I love Stacey more than anything.

 

....okay, ICK....I'm getting all mushy now. Sorry.

 

And just what is wrong with getting a bit mushy over the one you love? My husband and I are celebrating our 2nd wedding anniversary next week and I love getting mushy over him.

[Tarnished Halo 16]

For myself, I don't want to love everyone that I am with sexually. Good Grief! My husband and I have put a great deal into our relationship,and while I would prefer to be "fond" of, and "like" who we were playing with, those emotions for us should be reserved for one another. When one of us crosses that line, we are going to have to do some serious talking, with swinging out of the picture until we stablize our relationship. I also would not want "someone" to have emotions for me or him that would comprimize our goals and intents of swinging! That isn't to say that "more" could be available, like friendship, which is wonderful, but more than that is spelling trouble for those simply swinging.

[bear_n_bunny 43]

Some time I get that icky feeling when I get all mushy about my bear. We're as silly as a couple of teenagers sometimes. It sure does make me smile.

 

More on topic, the first couple we met with our lifestyle adventure was looking for polyamory. Well, the husband was, I'm not sure what the wife was looking for but that's another thread. Mainly the boys spent the evening debating the difference between swinging and polyamory.

 

It's all about the approach. Neither Bear nor I are looking for lovers, rather playmates we can also be friends with and care about. However, there are so many degrees of love that I can say I love many of my friends and will possible love a playmate or two. Yet, to fall in love with someone else would most likely endanger my relationship with my Bear, and that I would never do.

 

Cheers Bunny

[OhioCouple 41]

Originally posted by bear_n_bunny

However, there are so many degrees of love that I can say I love many of my friends and will possible love a playmate or two. Yet, to fall in love with someone else would most likely endanger my relationship with my Bear, and that I would never do.

You pretty much summed it up for me, Bunny. I do care about my friends and love them to a degree, but not to the point of being "in love". For me it is impossible to love someone in the same way that I love my husband. I guess my heart just isn't big enough for more than one at a time.....

[ga_cpl_frknit 17]

Quote

And just what is wrong with getting a bit mushy over the one you love?

 

Absolutely nothing!! I was merely apologizing for the mushiness. I know some people don't like reading mushy stuff. LOL

 

Quote

My husband and I are celebrating our 2nd wedding anniversary next week

 

Happy Anniversary to you! May you have many more! (I know it's a week early)

 

Quote

I don't want to love everyone that I am with sexually.

 

Neither do we. However we feel there needs to be a certain "fondness" for the other people we are with. This isn't to say that we haven't had a few encounters that were "spur of the moment" , we just generally try to avoid those type encounters.

 

Quote

We're as silly as a couple of teenagers sometimes. It sure does make me smile.

 

Isn't it fun??

[Vjklander 138]

We discovered early on - like when we first laid eyes on each other - that we are soul mates, so it frees us to have emotional bonds with others without affecting our relationship at all. We are usually fond of our playmates and can go up to love without being in love though.

[CanadianCouple 18]

Yeah, that's all I'd need, to fall in love with another man's wife.

 

Good grief, 'nuff said on THAT one.

[Elusive BiFem 70]

Are we talking about being "in love" with someone or "loving" someone? I've loved, and still love, many people - children, adults, married, single. But I've only been "in love" twice in my life.

 

For me, there is a difference.

[Nymph an' Satyr 22]

Quote

Originally posted by CanadianCouple

Yeah, that's all I'd need, to fall in love with another man's wife.

 

Good grief, 'nuff said on THAT one.

 

Aye, agreed 100% Or worse, her in love with some other woman's husband.

[LadyCleo 16]

Quote

Originally posted by OhioCouple

I do care about my friends and love them to a degree, but not to the point of being "in love". For me it is impossible to love someone in the same way that I love my husband. I guess my heart just isn't big enough for more than one at a time.....

Maybe it isn't that your heart isn't big enough, maybe it's that you cannot allow it to be. Maybe you are afraid of how those feelings would change you or your primary relationship. I am not singling you out OhioCouple. I am meaning "you" in the general. I know that there is room in my heart to love as many people as I would like to love. But, with that being said, I haven't given myself permission to go that far. And probably never will.

 

Good luck to those of you who can.

[muffinkm 15]

Sorry didn't mean to kick up a firestorm. However I find myself capable of loving many people, none of whom could replace my spouse. Spousal relationships are dependent on a lot more than "romantic love". Livability counts for a lot.

 

It just appeared to me, from reading many postings that swingers are afraid to feel anything and it seems that without feeling sex is just mechanical

[Alura 2,775]

Quote

Originally posted by muffinkm

 

It just appeared to me, from reading many postings that swingers are afraid to feel anything and it seems that without feeling sex is just mechanical

 

We surely haven't noticed any mechanicalism in our play, Muffinkm. I think the difference is that we laugh a lot while playing. Making Love is a lot more emotional and serious.

 

We'll continue to separate love from playing.

[alabamafuntonig 20]

As will I. Love and sex is great for a spouse or partner but not a playmate. If I wanted to love more than one person I would not swing. If I wanted to fall in love with everyone we play with I think I would have a hard time living a normal life. Just my 2 cents.

[Alura 2,775]

Yeah, Bama! Seems like it would change swinging from a whole lot of fun to a whole lot of headaches.

[Alura 2,775]

Has anybody ever read a book called The Harrad Experiment?

[alabamafuntonig 20]

mr alura,

Falling in love with someone while you love someone else is a headache whether or not you swing. Swinging has its problems (jealousy, etc.), now add love. You better find a new hobby if falling in love every time you have sex is going to happen.

[Alura 2,775]

You're absolute right, Alabama. I couldn't have put it so well.

[OhioCouple 41]

Originally posted by muffinkm

It just appeared to me, from reading many postings that swingers are afraid to feel anything and it seems that without feeling sex is just mechanical

I don't think a 'fear' to feel enters in the equation. I can 'care' about our swing partners, be there if they need a shoulder to lean on, I would race out to help them if they became stranded and they called, etc. But I wouldn't share the intimate love that I have with my husband. Our relationship is built on a lot more than sex. Making love is something that encompasses our entire relationship. Having sex with someone is sex with a friendship combined. Two entirely different loves for mankind.

[alabamafuntonig 20]

I speak from experience. When I married my first wife, I fell in "love" with her sister and her sister fell in love with me. Needless to say she is now my ex and I never saw her sister again. So now that I have grown up I realize love is not something you take for granted and not something you can share with more than one person (love for your spouse that is).

[Alura 2,775]

Good God, Alabama! I had the same experience many years ago. I wasn't married to either of them but it was one of the worst experiences of my life. It broke three hearts. I don't know if the two sisters ever patched it up and I still get guilt feelings when I remember it.

[M&B 21]

Quote

Originally posted by alabamafuntonig

When I married my first wife, I fell in "love" with her sister and her sister fell in love with me.

 

Bama, so which one did you marry?

[OhioCouple 41]

Quote

Originally posted by alabamafuntonig

...so now that I have grown up I realize love is not something you take for granted and not something you can share with more than one person (love for your spouse that is)

Some people will argue with that, Bama, but I fully agree with you. Which is exactly why I said my heart may not be big enough to be 'in love' with more than one person at a time. Being 'in love' means sharing every moment being concerned about the other, sharing in the good times as well as bad, working through problems, sharing triumphs, picking each other up when we fall. While you can do that to some extent with a loving friend, a friend cannot be there for you 24/7. However, your chosen mate can though and would be crushed if they weren't.

[alabamafuntonig 20]

Quote

Bama, so which one did you marry?

 

I married the older one. And was more in love with the second one. As I said I was young! If I could do it over again I would not do anything different! I learned what love meant from that experience! Love is not all roses, it has a hell of a lot of thorns. I'm man enough to say my hands were not thick enough to pick those thorns off and I did get hurt. But in the end i had a lot of experience to help make my marriage to mrs bama work.

[BradAndJanet 70]

Quote

Originally posted by Alura

Has anybody ever read a book called The Harrad Experiment?

Once, long ago. I might still have a copy around here somewhere. If I recall, it was about a group of young people involved in a polyamorous relationship, and a professor(?) who was studying them. And, I seem to recall that it did not have a happy ending. However, memory fades...

[EternallySingle 32]

Some professor wanted to see if humans were naturally monogamous or if it was something learned. Then everything went in a totally different direction. I was only a kid when I read it and thought it was science fiction. hmmm Maybe that book opened my mind to the possibility of swinging enough for me not to be totally shocked when it finally happened to me.

 

"The wheel weaves as the wheel wills."

[Lorrie 21]

Originally posted by OhioCouple

You pretty much summed it up for me, Bunny. I do care about my friends and love them to a degree, but not to the point of being "in love". For me it is impossible to love someone in the same way that I love my husband. I guess my heart just isn't big enough for more than one at a time.....

 

I'm in a Polyamory relationship.

 

You don't have to be "in love" with every single person you have sex with. But you do love them as friends. There are degrees of loving. That's why there are Primary and Secondary relationships and so on. Tantamount to having a Best Friend and then your Second Best Friend, etc.,

 

So no, of course it isn't about loving everyone on an equal basis.

[fun_pairTX 26]

Polyamory may be fine for some but not us. We have fun with people, have a lot of laughs and sex, but love? nah. Our lives are complicated enough already despite our constant efforts to simplify.

[Lorrie 21]

Originally posted by fun_pairTX

Our lives are complicated enough already despite our constant efforts to simplify.

 

Simplifying?? That's what "monogamy" is for.

[sereneiders 263]

muffinkm said:

It just appeared to me, from reading many postings that swingers are afraid to feel anything

 

I'd rater say, this is a matter of shifting boundaries, instead of (as we use to like to think) getting rid of all the boundaries.

 

In Vanillaland, the couple commitment is reassured by means of monogamy (i.e., no sex with others), and love is something expected to be there, although not necessarily required for this reassurance.

 

In Swingerland, the couple understands sex has nothing to do with this reassurance, so they share their sexuality with others, but they stick to the romantic archetype of love as the requirement for the reassurance, attempting to preserve some things symbolizing this archetype (for example, the phrase "I love you").

 

The need for reassurance remains there, just shifted away a couple of notches.

 

So, I believe it isn't a matter of fear to feel something, but to express those feelings in a way colliding with these symbols, because if these symbols where used beyond the original commitment, the reassurance would be threatened.

 

I do believe the OP question remains valid, and I disagree with Julie about what the sort of answer the OP is looking for. We define ourselves as swingers, and from the very beginning, when we stepped into Swingerland, we asked ourselves the same questions.

 

This doesn't mean we're not up to accept and follow Swingerland laws about this (as you can discuss the validity of the death penalty laws even when it was not allowed by the laws), nor that we're pursuing to develop emotional bonds with our casual playmates.

 

I believe you have the right to ask yourself those questions in Swingerland, without being deported to Polyamorland.

 

PS: I disagree about sex being "too mechanical" without love. It isn't, it is as fun and enjoyable as it is with love. If there is a difference, it would be that when "with love" you may be expressing something else besides the enjoyment.

[JP51 40]

Having a foot in each land...poly and love are great if it works...swinging and sex for the sake of just having some old plan fun is great too... I wonder how many of us who are in the poly world went looking for it? I know we did not, and it adds something more than just having close friends...

[ShellyM 0]

Golly Gee, maybe I just don't get it, but what is wrong with love? After scanning thousands of messages, it appears that actually loving the person you are having sex with (unless I do's have been exchanged) is a real no no. Amazingly you can love your spouse, your child, your dress and even your job, but feel compelled to draw the line when it comes to someone you've spent a great deal of time in extremely intimate positions. Perhaps my wife and I are a bit different we actually allow each other to emotional bond with others. Believe me sex plus love is a whole lot better than sex without feelings.

 

just my opinion.

 

Well, here is my opinion only, AGAIN. But LOVE can be a very, very confusing emotion. You LOVE your husband or wife, and you are dedicated to them. Its when the boundary with your lover is crossed I think when things get muddy....you start calling him about your problems vs. talking to your husband about them...he becomes your counselor, the shoulder you are crying on...you start meeting for lunch. LOVE for another person you make love to can really confuse you. Then you start thinking thoughts you really should not be thinking. Thats when the "what ifs" come into your mind. In my opinion, lust all you want. Even love that person as your friend. But, keep it kind of like the office.......there is a boundary that you should just not cross, no matter how close you are. Does this make any sense, hope it helps.

[sereneiders 263]

ShellyM said:

Well, here is my opinion only, AGAIN. But LOVE can be a very, very confusing emotion.

 

Indeed... as swinging could be something very confusing for some people as well, however, we don't advice against swinging just because "it can be confusing", but to bring light by means of talking about whatever it takes to get rid of the confusion, aren't we?

 

Again, here is where I bump against what I believe is something culturally dependent on the way we think about "love" and relationships of many kinds:

 

ShellyM said:

You LOVE your husband or wife, and you are dedicated to them. Its when the boundary with your lover is crossed I think when things get muddy....you start calling him about your problems vs. talking to your husband about them...

 

What's wrong with calling someone else about your problems? Moreover, why the "versus"? How do you fall to conclude once you call someone else about your problems it automatically would mean you stop talking to your spouse about them? What forbids you to get a SECOND opinion about something?

 

Or you may feel confident enough the third one have a better perspective about a particular issue and seek for his/her advice instead of your spouse one (which doesn't necessarily mean you're "hiding" the issue to your spouse), and in this case, why not? Wouldn't you seek for such an advice from someone you're NOT having sex with? If so, how it changes after adding the sex component?

 

ShellyM said:

he becomes your counselor, the shoulder you are crying on...

 

Wait.. your "counselor"? If we talk about a pro counselor, it role is defined by the fact that he/she DOESN'T love (nor have any other feeling towards) you, because this is what would ensure some degree of objectivity. Friends aren't suitable "counselors" under this perspective. Now, if you mean just someone able to provide SOME advice, when YOU feel it fits.... why not?

 

You may be seeking for advice about an issue affecting your spouse or your relationship, feel the third one knows you both enough and is able to provide an outsider viewpoint on that issue, while being confident he/she care about you, your spouse, and your relationship. Having the chance to have someone in this very particular place isn't that common, and it would be foolish to waste this resource to help you out.

 

But here is what calls my attention the more... why there should be just ONE shoulder where to cry on? What's the threat you feel from having TWO shoulders offered to you? I guess you may be afraid of take one shoulder and it could be taken as a rejection from the second one owner... but if any of the shoulders offered is up to take something like this as a rejection, then none of them would be up to a poly relationship in the first place!

 

What's wrong with having several people to rely on when you have a problem? Here's where I feel there's a cultural dependence: for me, it's natural to expect you'll rely on several people instead of just on your spouse, to the point that when I imagine a relationship where both parties are supposed to rely EXCLUSIVELY on each other, I imagine a this alone would impose an stress on the relationship that, at leas for me, would be unbearable. What feels "natural" for me is to share and distribute this stress among many people you have around: friends, relatives AND your spouse, and vice versa, and all the people, including your spouse, should have the chance to take a break from your problems as well, knowing that by taking such a break he/she wouldn't be harming you nor the relationship.

 

So, to some extent, your entire post makes no sense for me, or at least within my culture, and not only if applied to a poly relationship, but to ANY relationship you may have with people around you.

 

ShellyM said:

you start meeting for lunch.

 

I do, with many people. In fact, we meet for lunch with way more people than my wife in my life, because of our jobs. Then, how it is supposed to affect negatively your marital relationship to do so with someone both you and your spouse have sex with, IF your spouse is aware of you two meeting for lunch?

 

ShellyM said:

LOVE for another person you make love to can really confuse you.

 

No. I guess it may confuse YOU, it doesn't confuse ME, nor confuse my wife, and I don't see why we should suppose someone else could be confused or not because of this. Some people would, some people wouldn't, the same way that just swinging (no feelings involved) would be confusing for some people, and it wouldn't be confusing for some others.

 

This is like advising someone curious about swinging by JUST telling "fucking around with other people can really confuse you". Ok, it's true, and it's very likely than the curious one was already aware of this. He or she may want to know WHY and HOW some people ISN'T confused about this.

 

ShellyM said:

Then you start thinking thoughts you really should not be thinking.

 

WOW! WOW! WOW!... and again... WOW! I cannot believe I read this sentence in this forum!

 

We SHOULDN'T have some thoughts? Why not??? Didn't we advise to TALK, TALK and TALK to people curious about swinging? Thoughts are the way you talk to yourself, so by "forbidding" some thoughts we'd be advising against talking... not even to yourself! Let's throw the dust under the carpet! And beware of meeting someone able to rock your world and make you develop feelings... not only at the swinger club, but also at work, when shopping, at the gym... anywhere, because since you forbid yourself to think about those feelings, you may not have the resources to deal with your feelings, REALLY risking your marital relationship because of this.

 

And... how would you manage to avoid thinking of something? Just by thinking of what you're not supposed to think of, you're thinking of it. It's unavoidable... even for you. How you'd be supposed to be able to impose this on someone's else's thoughts... like the OP, or... your husband? Do you feel reassured about your marriage just by telling "this won't happen to us, because we agreed we wont THINK about certain things"?

 

I am across the street about this. No matter the issue, nor the pain, my first advice will be... THINK!

 

And as for me, you're right... I had those thoughts, being in a poly relationship made me think of certain things, made me re-evaluate my values and my marital relationship... just to UNDERSTAND, again, over and over, why I WANT to be with my wife, why I treasure my relationship with her, beyond what may be happening with my relationship with other people. And if feel this is a way more sound reassurance than the one I had before engaging in a poly relationship... which was more sound than the one I had before even swinging, because by them, it was all theoretical, and I had the chance to PROOF those theories.

 

ShellyM said:

That's when the "what ifs" come into your mind. In my opinion, lust all you want.

 

Yep, you ask yourself "what if"... you do it all the time, you don't need to be in a poly relationship, nor even to swing to ask yourself "what if". The only difference is how much of the answer for the "what if" comes from your experience, and how much comes just for your fantasies and expectations.

 

The "what if" is unavoidable, we ask this all the time, about every decision we have to take in our life, and what makes the difference is the grounds you have to answer the question.

 

IMO, the only motivation you have to avoid the "what if" about this matter is fear for one experience able to challenge your current fantasies and expectations. And I am not against this, because we also do this to protect ourselves every day.... but this isn't advisable as a way to "solve" the problem.

 

ShellyM said:

Even love that person as your friend. But, keep it kind of like the office.......there is a boundary that you should just not cross, no matter how close you are. Does this make any sense, hope it helps.

 

I guess YOU shouldn't cross this boundary, so far it seems for you it'd be a wise and healthy decision. As for others, I believe it is required to warn about the risks involved when crossing this boundary, to provide information as for them to be able to choose to do it or not (the same way we do if they were thinking of crossing the boundary to swinging)... and also it's important to tell apart what we know because of our experience, from what we conclude from related experiences or third one's experiences, and from our fears.

[Amanda69 24]

Sex is primarily a biological process, hardwired into humans to ensure the continuation of the species and some bright spark thought to include a whole lot of pleasure in the process.

 

Love is an emotional bond and connection to a partner, child, family member, good friend etc. We love in many different ways and at many different levels.

 

My heart is huge and it contains love for many different people. It does not however have space for me loving other sexual partners. Why? Because I am not there for an emotional connection, though they may also become friends. I am there because of a basic biological urge and I love the feeling. I find other such adults who recognize the difference between love and sex. Who acknowledge that you can be sexually attracted to one person and still be very deeply in love with your partner.

 

Hey this is the way it works for us...hence the choice of swinging over polymory.

[sereneiders 263]

Amanda69 said:

Sex is primarily a biological process, hardwired into humans to ensure the continuation of the species and some bright spark thought to include a whole lot of pleasure in the process.

 

Allow me to disagree here. What's hardwired in any species to produce a behavior is called instinct. The human behavior set apart from any other animal behavior by the ways other artifacts, like culture, overrides our instincts. The whole "catholic priest" concept, i.e. someone choosing not to have sex, wouldn't be possible if we were being ruled by our instincts: the guy would simply try to fuck the first lady delivering pheromones in his path.

 

And as far as I know, the only animal who gets pleasure in the form of an orgasm is the human being, perhaps as a reward after we overrode our instincts.

 

So, I agree, sex is a biological process. But sexuality isn't, it have to do with choices and psychology, something that only applies to human beings. We are so apart from "sex", that it is pointless to try to explain our sexual behavior by means of biology alone.

 

Amanda69 said:

Love is an emotional bond and connection to a partner, child, family member, good friend etc. We love in many different ways and at many different levels.

 

My heart is huge and it contains love for many different people. It does not however have space for me loving other sexual partners. Why? Because I am not there for an emotional connection, though they may also become friends. I am there because of a basic biological urge and I love the feeling. I find other such adults who recognize the difference between love and sex. Who acknowledge that you can be sexually attracted to one person and still be very deeply in love with your partner.

 

Wait! Stop putting words in our mouths!!!! LISTEN what we say here. What makes you believe we don't recognize a difference between love an sex????

 

Your statement is really off grounds here, it almost lead to conclude poly-friendly people is "risky" in the swinging community, much the same way some vanilla people claims swingers are "risky" inside the vanilla community.

 

I DO know the difference. I do swing without requesting love from any partner. I love my partner the most, and we CHOOSE to allow ourselves to develop feelings with other consenting adults who are up to do the same.

 

Do you try to fuck every couple friend of you that put a step into your home, because you're swinger? I am sure you don't, and that such a claim would be offensive for you, because the claimer would be saying you're DISRESPECTFUL to everyone around you, that you lack the most basic social skills, and that you're up to do whatever it takes to fulfill your lust. Am I wrong?

 

So, how it come that you confuse our ideas so badly, to the point of being able to claim we don't recognize such a difference between sex and love?

 

Amanda69 said:

Hey this is the way it works for us...hence the choice of swinging over polyamory.

 

I agree, and I guess no one challenge this. The question as stated by the OP is, indeed, provoking, but I guess the purpose is to invite us to dig more deeper in the whole "love" subject.

 

I understand people saying "let's face it, this would bring some complexities to our life we're not wanting to face", and it's a valid answer (as it is "swinging would... (put the same words here)"), but it doesn't answer the OP question of what's so challenging about loving a sexual partner who isn't your spouse.

[Amanda69 24]

Wait! Stop putting words in our mouths!!!! LISTEN what we say here. What makes you believe we don't recongize a difference between love an sex????

 

I don't and I didn't...I simply chose to put down what I felt for me and for us in our relationship.

 

So, how it come that you confuse our ideas so badly, to the point of being able to claim we don't recognize such a difference between sex and love?

Again I don't and I didn't I simply said how I see it and how it works for me. I also state that this is the type of sexual partners we look for and often find. I haven't actually met anyone in a poly relationship in all my years in swinging so I can't speak for them...only for my own experiences.

 

but it doesn't answer the OP question of what's so challenging about loving a sexual partner who isn't your spouse.

It isn't challenging it simply isn't something I am interested in doing. I love my spouse and the type of love I have for him is reserved in my heart and mind only for him. He feels the same way...making us infinitely compatible. Any other affections I have for others are different and special in their own way but for me they aren't the same.

[sereneiders 263]

Amanda69 said:

It isn't challenging it simply isn't something I am interested in doing. I love my spouse and the type of love I have for him is reserved in my heart and mind only for him. He feels the same way...making us infinitely compatible. Any other affections I have for others are different and special in their own way but for me they aren't the same.

 

Well, I agree with you about this, too. If you take a look, most poly relationship makes a difference by talking about "primaries" and "secondaries". Two couples who engage in a poly relationship would admit the original couples take their partners as "primaries" and the other couple parties as "secondaries", and vice versa, which is a (perhaps a little technical) way to say they love their spouses is "bigger" than the love for the others, that they know the compatibility among them hardly would be matched by the compatibility they have with the "secondaries". Then they would wholly agree with you, by saying "any other affections I have for others are different and special in their own way, but for me they aren't the same".

 

Some people reading you could even say "well... she's poly-friendly but she doesn't want to admit it". In any case, I believe we're missing something here that makes the difference, and it is the commitments we're up to take with the people around us we have affection for, in other words, what are you up to give up to honor those feelings, and here, we all agree, you're not supposed, nor asked, to give up anything from your pre-existent commitment inside your marriage.

 

As I see this, we trend to tie up the word "love" with this commitment, and we dislike to use this word when referring to those affection we feel for people we don't want to commit with (at least at in important degree). However, as we can tell apart sex from love, I believe we also can tell apart love from commitments, admitting we can love (or affection to suit your taste) WITHOUT committing (which in practice, it hardly would happen because we use to honor our feelings while we CAN), or finding a degree of commitment that provide some safety to the relationship but still is comfortable for everyone involved.

 

It happens for many swingers to find another couple they feel comfortable with, they develop a friendship besides having sex, thus with a high degree of intimacy, they make them part of their lives, and the relationship works out, at least for a significative period of time (let say, several months). The relationship inherits a commitment from the "friendship" concept, i.e., to the same extent you're committed with any vanilla friend... and well, IMO, this isn't too far from a polyamorous relationship, at least for me, I don't see where's the difference. The only one I can recognize comes from the fact that all the involved people would deny they have a polyamorous relationship, and from the risk of exposure any of them could have if daring to use the word "love" to express their feelings towards the other couple parties (and I believe this have to do with the way the word "love" reminds us of the commitments).

 

In the other hand, I've seen in this forum people using the word love when talking about their feelings with swinger partners in a relationship like the former one, just to be automatically outcast by many other swingers who, somehow, feels threatened by the whole idea of "mixing up sex with love this way".

 

And this is what upset me from your post. In the context of THIS discussion you said: "I find other such adults who recognize the difference between love and sex", implying there are other adults who doesn't recognize it, which in fact, it is true... BUT this is ambiguous. You may mean the vanilla perspective, where people doesn't make this difference INSIDE their marriages, and you may mean poly/poly-friendly people who may be (mistakenly) seen as people choosing to AVOID making this difference INSIDE AND OUTSIDE their marriages. From the thread context, it's reasonable to assume the second meaning from your words.

 

The fact is, we're poly-friendly and we do make this difference. Moreover, we deprive the word "love" from the commitment implications, ultimately, it describes a feeling that grows and is being feed as you stick to the commitments. So we have three different things in our language: sex, love, and commitment, instead of just two: sex and love.

 

I'd rephrase the OP original question as "why it is so hard to dissect the word love into the affective feelings and the commitments?". And now, the answer "well, we choose NOT to dissect it" doesn't seems to provide much of an insight.

[Miss_Piggy 98]

I apologize if I'm saying things that repeat some of the above. My command of the English language has been failing me recently and I'm having trouble fully understanding some of the longer posts above. (English is my first language... I'm just not great with it these days.)

 

That being said, I was going to talk about this love and commitment issue.

 

That's what I see as being more difficult about love (compared to just sex). I don't know how to separate love and commitment. People don't often just love freely without any expectations of anything in return. We require certain things out of the ones we love. Things like time, energy, displays of affection... all sorts of things.

 

Now, it's all fine and good to say that you can love a trillion people at the same time. I think you can love everyone and everything and everything would be nice and happy. But the type of love that we engage in in romantic relationships carries those expectations. And those things are difficult in a one on one relationship. But if you're trying to satisfy those needs in multiple relationships... well! that's where I think things start to get really difficult. It's just impossible to avoid having what one partner needs from you conflicting with what another partner needs from you every once in a while.

 

THEN - you get into the issue of who takes priority... and is there such a thing as one relationship being more valuable than another? How can you measure one love against another?

 

Well, I think it's all just incredibly difficult.

 

What's wrong with love? Nothing. It's just difficult and some people realize that it's might just be easier not to go there. (For the record, I didn't personally come to that realization)

[eubiotist 15]

To wax theoretical:

 

A psychologist by the name of Sternberg distinguishes 3 components of love: romantic attachment, psychological intimacy, and commitment. I'd add lust, at the impersonal end, and nurturance, at the "transpersonal" end.

 

As for polyamory versus swinging: I think that the best polyamorous love would involve *all* these components. I'd guess that a swinging relationship would probably involve lust and possibly intimacy, but wouldn't include romantic attachment, commitment, or nurturance. And that's totally OK!

[Lady Yes 15]

Seems I picked a contentious issue to weigh in for my first "non-introductory" post.

 

I've been polyamorous since before my first child was born, though I didn't have that word for it then. I remember how difficult it was to sort out sex and love and multiple partners and what to do about any of it -- but having a helluva good time just maundering through it all.

 

I must have slipped into the swinger's camp a few years ago when I encountered the term "polyf*ckery" and realized that for most people, multiple loves come with huge expectations, and I didn't need/want the drama that was usually attached to that.

 

Where I am with this now, 23 years later, finds me somewhat in agreement with Miss Piggy -- sex and love aren't mutually exclusive, but don't have to occur in order to enjoy either. What gets in the way of sharing the best about ourselves with others, every time, is "expectation," and I have found this is true regardless of how one identifies oneself. Straight, gay, poly, vanilla, swingers -- expectation is the silent participant and spoiler in every encounter.

 

My answer was to begin the process of weaning myself away from expectations altogether, in all my relationships, most especially including my current marriage as I see clearly how harboring expectations ("realistic" and otherwise) destroyed my first marriage. What I have discovered is that this has allowed me to love freely, without worrying about whether I'm loved in return or the bennies that are "expected" to come with that.

 

Was this difficult? Sure it was, and still is -- but so was deciding to practice a sexual lifestyle outside the monogamous "norm" in this culture. If you've ever done one difficult thing in your life, you find it's easier to do others, when you just gotta.

 

Thanks to all of you who post so thoughtfully and honestly about your feelings and experiences. This has truly been an educational experience.

[dozzydolly 15]

I appreciate Lady Yes's and Miss Piggy's posts here. "Expectations" can be really difficult things to manoeuver. We once met a great couple and things were really wonderful (we enjoyed each others company, everyone was attracted, kids got along, we enjoyed similar recreation...) but the picture the man of the of the other couple had for what our relationships was going to be was so solid that we couldn't make it work. We couldn't fulfill his expectations about time, commitment, down to how often we (me and he) would have lunch. It was a sad day for me when I realised that this relationship was going to end because of a picture he had painted in his head. That has been a while ago and I'm still pretty disheartened because it is so hard to find people whose real desires match the desires we have and then have that all work amongst everyone's lives (work, kids, homes, etc.). Flexibility is key.

 

A great book is Don Miguel Ruiz's "Mastery of Love." Here's a quote I found about it:

 

The Mastery of Love illuminates the fear-based assumptions that undermine love and lead to suffering and drama in our relationships. Using insightful stories to bring his message to life, Don Miguel Ruiz shows us how to heal our emotional wounds, recover the freedom and joy that are our birthright, and restore the spirit of playfulness that is vital to loving relationships.

I don't think there is anything wrong with love, it is what I look for. Loving people brings incredible energy, vitality and diversity to my life. I'm frustrated about the bad energy or drama that pops up so easily (in theory it seems so easy). As always, I'm looking for the balance.

[lovinher 505]

Nothing wrong with love if that is what your in it for. But from what I've picked up during my short time here, most "swingers" are not. Why is it that swingers seem to have no problem with people in the poly lifstyle, but many of those in the poly lifestyle seem to think people in it for sex's sake only must have some problems or issues? As if they are more enlightened than those of us that are just plain old everyday swingers.

 

Throughout this site I have read things from people advocating polymory like...

Must have issues of trust.

Heart not big enough.

lack of self confidence in yourself.

Lack of confidence in your relationship.

etc.

 

Well guess what! I am hard wired to love my my wife. I am not looking for an emotional bond or another soul mate. Sure, I would need some type of attraction to a woman I'm going to play with but thats it, period.

 

Let's turn it around. Just maybe those who feel they must love the persom thay are playing with, or those that are in love with more than their SO have problems their primary relationship, especially those that actively seek out another partner or "soulmate". I do not believe this is true in the majority of cases, just trying to give an example. BUT, I'm sure it does happen.

 

Bottom line is that I love my wife. I do not need to love someone to fuck them and that does not mean there is something wrong with me for feeling that way. Those of you in poly lifestyle...great if works for you. Just a little too much preaching from some of you.

[dozzydolly 15]

I think that part of this discussion is confused by differences in the personal definitions of "love." Some people use this word often and others don't. I grew up in a home where we told each other we loved each other every day. Not surprisingly, I use the word often and feel love for A LOT of people in my life. On the other hand, I have friends who use this word differently and use it very sparingly. I'm open to feeling love for others but the love I feel for my husband and kids is on a scale that isn't comparable to the other people I love in my life.

 

Poly vs. Swinger - The finger pointing that goes on from one group towards the other has always surprised me. Unfortunately, it seems to flow in both directions (from poly to swinger and back). When fingers get pointed, I believe it is just from misunderstanding each other.

[Lady Yes 15]

Poly vs. Swinger - The finger pointing that goes on from one group towards the other has always surprised me. Unfortunately, it seems to flow in both directions (from poly to swinger and back). When fingers get pointed, I believe it is just from misunderstanding each other.

 

(nod) I've seen this too, dozzydolly. I'd have to agree.

 

As I said in another thread, there's variety in the world for a reason.

[avid 134]

What's wrong with love? Nothing. It's just difficult and some people realise that it's might just be easier not to go there.

 

Absolutely, it's difficult. It's good when someone realizes up front that poly won't work for them.

 

Having to prioritize emotional needs and logistical issues is often so complicated. It has happened sometimes that someone feels left out, or underappreciated. By no means would I ever say that our relationship is ALWAYS a bed of roses.

 

When issues arise, we have an agreement that the "wronged" party has the onus on them to say that they need something, whether it be time, attention, or simply laundry. We have committed that none of us have to read one another's minds.

 

Some days I want to run away to the circus, but when things are going well, and I know that these two men I love care for each other as well, I'm grateful for the depth of this relationship we're building.

 

All that being said, my secondary partner returned to his other home today, after being here for a week, and I'm feeling sad and a little lost. I'm sure I'll get lots of cuddles and love from my husband tonight, though!

[ShellyM 0]

I don't think a 'fear' to feel enters in the equation. I can 'care' about our swing partners, be there if they need a shoulder to lean on, I would race out to help them if they became stranded and they called, etc. But I wouldn't share the intimate love that I have with my husband. Our relationship is built on a lot more than sex. Making love is something that encompasses our entire relationship. Having sex with someone is sex with a friendship combined. Two entirely different loves for mankind.

 

I agree. No man can rival the love I feel for Jay. I know people say this crap all of the time, but I only say things I mean. He is my absolute best friend, my friends laugh because when we talk on the phone we sound like 2 women lol, talking and laughing. There is no penis on this earth, or shoulder for that matter, that would rival the feelings I feel for my husband. We have created 3 human lives together, and have gone through good AND bad times together. I agree. There is love you feel for a friend, even one you make love to. BUT there is an entirely different level of love you feel for your mate, and that kind is rare and not easily put aside. I think this is why some couples are swingers, and some not. We aren't jealous because we know how we feel about each other, and know that no vagina or penis on this earth will ever replace it.

[sereneiders 263]

Lady_Yes, great post. And Miss_Piggy, great insight. Now we're talking!

 

I believe you two hit the nail here: EXPECTATIONS.

 

This reminds me of the saying "Rich isn't the one who have the most, but the one who needs the less". And when I read both your posts, I realized this is what fit our case.

 

From the very beginning on our relationship we both agreed on two things we wanted to avoid for us: to press each other to fit our expectations, and to give up things we feel comfortable with just to stick to the other party expectations. We discussed this thoroughly, agreeing this was the reason for the failure in our previous relationships. We developed a "theoretical model" that made sense for us, explaining those failures (from our previous relationships and from other relationship failures we witnessed).

 

Upon this "model", each one of us have an ideal for the way the "perfect" partner should be, which features he/she should have, which ones he/she shouldn't, and so, and this ideal would be a "shape" drawn in the wall, you compare the shape against the shadow you partner leave in the wall, and you notice where the shadow exceeds the shape edge and when it doesn't fill it. We cannot impose at once your ideal to force your partner to fit in, at once, because you'd get kicked in the ass as the immediate reaction, instead we develop skills on ways to subtle mold our partner into the shape... give him/her a break, push some more, and so. Your partner may feel comfortable, or he/she may reach a point where he/she dislike the one he/she is being to fit the mold. This is skill is one allowing you to make your point about something while giving you the way out should the other reacts against this. For example, you make a joke about your partner clothes today... and a similar joke in two weeks; none of the jokes is serious enough to justify a reaction, but at last you partner stop using those clothes. So, we asked each other to tell us when the other was doing something like this, able to be felt as pressure but not enough to justify a reaction, and take it seriously. We did it, but now I realize what we did was to find out the middle way between what you're up to change to build the relationship, and what you're up to accept from the others expectations. We manage to build up a pretty relaxed and comfortable relationship for both of us. And I guess this was extended when we engaged in a poly relationship. We keep the expectations low, and asked for a minimal commitment allowing all of us to feel comfortable enough.