The Wasted Encounter

[Mr TybeeSwing 201]

Alright my friends The Single Guy has a situational question for you. This has happened to me on occasion and I want to get some feedback from the forum on their take.

 

You (or you and your better half) are out meeting someone for the possible tryst. Everyone hits it off, the opposite couple is funny, intelligent, sexy, hot, and willing. The night is going smoothly, fun is being had by all.....except for this. One of the members of the other couple is in the process of getting knee walking, knuckle dragging, commode hugging drunk, in other words WASTED. Well the point in time comes where the evening is ready to progress out of the Silly Vertical State that you have found yourself in all evening. Now remember one of the members of the other team is drunk, but other than that they are what you were looking for when you started the Lifestyle. How do you handle it?

 

Men - Do you play with the drunk woman?

 

Ladies - Are you up for the drunk man?

 

Now as for The Single Guy, I have the policy of never having sex with an overly intoxicated woman.....It just seems like work to me. But I want to know what the general opinion is.

 

Also, is there anyone here that finds that they need some liquid courage to have fun?

[funcoupledayton 2,708]

In my experience overly drunk (sometimes even just a little drunk) men can not perform in a swing situation. I stay away from them.

 

I do like to be buzzed or even drunk sometimes when having sex, it can make it more fun at times. I get very silly and uninhibited. My husband likes it when I'm that way too. He says he likes to take advantage of a drunk girl sometimes (me). We don't play with overly drunk girls otherwise because we wouldn't want to play with someone who need to be smashed to play.

[Alura 2,774]

There are some things, I suppose, worse than having sex with a drunk woman. At the moment I can't think of one. One wouldn't want her to be riding cowgirl when her stomach revolts, don't you agree?

 

Similarly, if someone showed up drunk at the Ferrari Club race hoping to take your car out for a lap or two, you wouldn't hand him the keys, would you?

[Mr TybeeSwing 201]

Quote

There are some things, I suppose, worse than having sex with a drunk woman. At the moment I can't think of one. One wouldn't want her to be riding cowgirl when her stomach revolts, don't you agree?

Now that just ain't right!

[mauijanedoe 1,414]

No, no, no. I don't like being around drunks when I'm vertical, so I'm certainly not going to want to have sex with them. And a drunk guy is just kinda useless anyway. Commode hugging drunk is particularly worrisome!

[Alura 2,774]

Mr TybeeSwing said:

Now that just ain't right!

What ain't right?

[Mr TybeeSwing 201]

This....

 

One wouldn't want her to be riding cowgirl when her stomach revolts, don't you agree?

 

Too much like one of the American Pie movies..........

[Alura 2,774]

Mr TybeeSwing said:

This...

Too much like one of the American Pie movies..........

I don't see many movies. I'm particularly glad I missed that one.

[JustAskJulie 2,595]

It's funny, the drunk person often never realizes that they are so drunk they shouldn't proceed (I've been the drunk person). If one of my potential playmates is that drunk (whether sick drunk or just on their way) I'd prefer to pass. As others have said the guys typically don't perform well in those situations, women have a tendency to turn into dead fish.

 

This reminds me of a situation that occurred a few years ago for us, we'd met a couple at a club on Friday night and had a great time. We saw them again on Saturday and would have played again but she got sick drunk. As drunk as she was they didn't seem to see any reason not to play again and I believe got their feelings hurt that we took a pass on a repeat. We would have loved to have seen them again, but I think they got their feelings hurt

[angelkin 1,326]

Oh, I've been that drunk girl...not sick drunk, but certainly way too drunk to be fun in the sack. Would we play with people in that condition? Nope.

[sweet_tna 680]

Yep, we've been there, done that, got the tee shirts. Having learned our lessons, we don't play with drunk folk anymore, as it only leads to frustration and disappointment. What I have done that worked, is if the chemistry is right, and he's reaching for another drink is to distract him (flash him, start dancing, kissing him) so that he's got a reason to do something besides drink.

 

=)

[ViSexual 1,008]

We were with a couple, the second time with them, and the wife got really drunk. My wife and the husband were having too good of a time for me to end it so I simply baby-sitted the wife that night. You know, it was a strange turn-on to hear them having fun in the bedroom while I tried to carry on a conversation with a drunk woman. This was sort of like 'taking one for the team' but I had enjoyed her before, and did again on other nights.

[Lionheart72 2,190]

It is my understanding that, legally speaking, a drunk individual cannot consent. That pretty much ends the whole thing IMO.

[Mr TybeeSwing 201]

ViSexual said:

We were with a couple, the second time with them, and the wife got really drunk. My wife and the husband were having too good of a time for me to end it so I simply babysitted the wife that night. You know, it was a strange turn-on to hear them having fun in the bedroom while I tried to carry on a conversation with a drunk woman. This was sort of like 'taking one for the team' but I had enjoyed her before, and did again on other nights.

Something similar to this happened to me a few weeks ago. I ended up babysitting the drunk wife of a couple while the husband went off and played with another couple. I still haven't figured out how they talked me into that...........

[Desdemona1980 297]

Lionheart72 said:

It is my understanding that, legally speaking, a drunk individual cannot consent. That pretty much ends the whole thing IMO.

Thank you! I was thinking this the entire time I was reading this thread. I'm sure one could argue the point or justify to themselves that if the drunk person in question is at a party/club for swinger's they are looking for sex, but we all know that isn't true, especially in a club setting. You can never be sure of the dynamics that got the people there (unless they are already trusted friends) and it could be a case of the husband pushing for a fantasy the wife isn't really into or vice versa. Therefore, he gets her drinking and her walls come down, things happen and the next morning she hates herself, will never see her husband the same way again and possible feels violated.

 

If they are already friends, I would not want to risk a friend being upset because I "went for it" while they were drunk and they wished I had had respect and better boundaries.

 

But Lionheart is right, legally speaking, consent cannot be given if a person is drunk.

[Mr TybeeSwing 201]

Desdemona1980 said:

But Lionhhart is right, legally speaking, consent cannot be given if a person is drunk.

I skirted this issue in this post because to me it is a moral and legal issue. But I do agree with Des and Lion.

[LFM2 1,482]

I've been that drunk girl myself, once. At one of our Halloween parties. I know I wouldn't have played with me.

[angelkin 1,326]

So, can we define "drunk"? Is it sick and passing out drunk, or unsteady on the feet drunk...in other words, what's the threshold of drunkenness between ok to play and not?

[two4youinswva 3,068]

angelkin said:

So, can we define "drunk"? Is it sick and passing out drunk, or unsteady on the feet drunk...in other words, what's the threshold of drunkenness between ok to play and not?

That was my thought. I can be over the limit allowed to drive a car, but still very capable of making good decisions (like, don't drive the car, because your reflexes are hindered). I have the built in penis response app when I've had too much to drink, but when does the lady hit the red zone?

[Lionheart72 2,190]

angelkin said:

So, can we define "drunk"? Is it sick and passing out drunk, or unsteady on the feet drunk...in other words, what's the threshold of drunkenness between ok to play and not?

Sorry, but gloves off... A person who is drunk cannot legally consent. There is a simple word for having sex with someone who does not consent. That word is rape. At what point are you comfortable risking becoming a rapist. Now, I'm sure there is some kind of legal threshold... but I'm guessing that might ultimately come down a decision by to the district attorney or the jury.

 

Me, I choose to err on the side of caution.

 

Now, just so you don't think I'm being a total asshole, I have actually been there. Once, many years ago, I had a very lovely 18 year old coed squirming on my lap, sticking her tongue down my throat and positively begging to do all manner of fun things with me... while my wife, her boyfriend and about a half dozen other party goers looked on. She was drunk. I put on the brakes. Later, when we were all sober, I suggested that if we wanted to play, we could. After much discussion, she realized that she wasn't really ready for that. Damn, I would have loved to hit that, but I didn't. Because she couldn't consent... even though she was dry humping where I sat, she couldn't consent and in the cold light of day, she didn't.

 

I know, it takes the fun out of the moment, doesn't it. But if we are going to sit here and talk about honesty, openness, trust, respect and those other things that go along with swinging, don't we owe the people we're hooking up with the same honestly, openness, trust and respect?

[two4youinswva 3,068]

Lionheart72 said:

Now, I'm sure there is some kind of legal threshold... but I'm guessing that might ultimately come down a decision by to the district attorney or the jury.

I think that's what Angelkin was asking. I know it's what I was asking. What is the threshold?

[Lionheart72 2,190]

two4youinswva said:

I think that's what Angelkin was asking. I know it's what I was asking. What is the threshold?

So, basically what you are asking is how many drinks does she have to take before it becomes rape. I am outraged. Since you are a moderator, I can't put you on my Ignore list, so instead I withdraw from this discussion, and I may withdraw from this entire forum.

[sweet_tna 680]

Lionheart72 said:

I know, it takes the fun out of the moment, doesn't it. But if we are going to sit here and talk about honesty, openness, trust, respect and those other things that go along with swinging, don't we owe the people we're hooking up with the same honestly, openness, trust and respect?

We get that part. Most of us here have already agreed that a person that sloppy and drunk is not someone with whom we'd want to play. So unless you're suggesting that ANY alcohol consumption would render one unable to legally consent, at what point WOULD any of us 'hit the brakes' on a potential playmate? At least, that's MY interpretation of Angelkin's question.

[two4youinswva 3,068]

Lionheart72 said:

So, basically what you are asking is how many drinks does she have to take before it becomes rape. I am outraged. Since you are a moderator, I can't put you on my Ignore list, so insted I withdraw from this discussion, and I may withdraw from this entire forum.

Really? That's what you took from the question? I'm not asking if it's OK to screw someone that is passed out, or stumbling around. That's obvious. Do you disagree that someone that may be legally over the limit to drive may still be OK to decide to play? How do you decide when someone has passed the line?

[angelkin 1,326]

I was not referring to the legalities of it....I am asking at what point is someone, anyone, too intoxicated to consent? One drink, five drinks, slurring, stumbling, falling?

 

I think it's a judgment call for everyone on a case-by-case basis, no?

[mauijanedoe 1,414]

angelkin said:

I was not referring to the legalities of it....I am asking at what point is someone, anyone, too intoxicated to consent? One drink, five drinks, slurring, stumbling, falling?

 

I think it's a judgment call for everyone on a case-by-case basis, no?

I certainly think so, at least up to a point. Since I drink very little, don't have much experience in being drunk, and have personal reasons for not liking the company of drunks, what's over the limit for me is probably going to be different than someone with different criteria and tolerances. Mine is going to probably stop at any visible signs of impairment, actually, which may or may not be over the legal limit for driving.

[Alura 2,774]

It seems to me Lionheart is right about the legal implications. Since few of us care to spend time in prison, we'd best consider what the District Attorney's decision might be...

 

Morally, I think Uncle Blind Bear was right: the fault lies with the one who put the poison water down the throat of the drunk. "Oh, it was the drunk? Well the drunk can't be responsible!" That 's bullshit in my opinion.

 

Now, if a woman were passed out from drinking and somebody had fucked her without her knowledge... That's rape, in my opinion.

[JustAskJulie 2,595]

Lionheart72 said:

Sorry, but gloves off... A person who is drunk cannot legally consent. There is a simple word for having sex with someone who does not consent. That word is rape. At what point are you comfortable risking becoming a rapist.

I think you are asking the same question that others were trying to get to. At what point do you look at someone and say "they are too drunk to consent to this action"?

 

I think this is one of those cases were we are all saying/asking the same thing just perhaps a different way so that it came across "wrong".

 

For me, if someone appears unsteady or intoxicated I'd say they are too drunk for me to play with. Consent or not, I'm just not about having anyone wake up the next morning with regrets that involve me (and heck, that could happen if they are sober).

[mauijanedoe 1,414]

Alura said:

It seems to me Lionheart is right about the legal implications. Since few of us care to spend time in prison, we'd best consider what the District Attorney's decision might be...

 

Morally, I think Uncle Blind Bear was right: the fault lies with the one who put the poison water down the throat of the drunk. "Oh, it was the drunk? Well the drunk can't be responsible!" That 's bullshit in my opinion.

 

Now, if a woman were passed out from drinking and somebody had fucked her without her knowledge... That's rape, in my opinion.

I think I'll take up a small cudgel here and say that while Uncle Blind Bear was very wise, his opinion is a little behind the times. We've gotten to the place - legally and morally - where consent is a necessary part of sex. Sure, it definitely meets the moral and legal definition of rape if someone is passed out, but at some point - and where is definitely open for discussion - an impaired person is no longer able to give consent, because of the impairment. Who is responsible for the type and degree of impairment is actually moot, at that point, don't you think?

[cplnuswing 4,713]

two4youinswva said:

I think that's what Angelkin was asking. I know it's what I was asking. What is the threshold?

It does not appear there is a simple answer to that question, at least not from a legal sense. From the Rape Abuse & Incest National Network:

 

Do both people have the capacity to consent? States also define who has the mental and legal capacity to consent. Those with diminished capacity — for example, some people with disabilities, some elderly people and people who have been drugged or are unconscious — may not have the legal ability to agree to have sex.

 

These categories and definitions vary widely by state, so it is important to check the law in your state. You can call your local crisis center or the National Sexual Assault Hotline at 1.800.656.HOPE to find out more about the laws in your state.

 

So, completely passed out is pretty clear, as everyone has all agreed, but less than that, not so clear. I will say I have never heard or read about a rape charge that was based solely on one of the people involved being drunk and therefore unable to give consent. I think that is pretty unlikely and would be a very, very difficult case to make and win a conviction.

 

For the other question, when is someone so drunk that I personally don't want to play with them, I would just say it is when I feel they have lost control. By control I don't necessarily mean stumbling around running into walls, but that they are so totally wasted that I can no longer determine if it is them at least partially doing the talking, or the alcohol doing ALL of the talking.

[Alura 2,774]

Many years ago when I was living in London a Scotsman came to a party and got sloppy drunk. His hand was the one pouring the booze down his throat. He was a big guy. Before the evening was over he had slapped a hippie around, then broken an empty wine bottle against a table and threatened to kill the hippie. His girlfriend intervened and probably saved a life... or maybe two.

 

The next day she came around to apologize for him saying basically, "It's not his fault; he was drunk."

 

Well, I thought it was his fault, since he was not forced to drink by anyone other than himself. He never apologized for himself.

 

I admit I would have trouble deciding whether a woman were able to give consent but it would probably not be a question because I'd have decided not to fuck her some time before concent was questioned just because I'd have found her, in her state, not particularly erotic.

[mauijanedoe 1,414]

cplnuswing said:

So, completely passed out is pretty clear, as everyone has all agreed, but less than that, not so clear. I will say I have never heard or read about a rape charge that was based solely on one of the people involved being drunk and therefore unable to give consent. I think that is pretty unlikely and would be a very, very difficult case to make and win a conviction.

I did just a quick scan of date rape cases alcohol and got about 9M hits, including an extract from an article stating that juries are reluctant to convict when alcohol is involved, along with several dozen citing a statistic that alcohol is the most common date rape drug. I was unable to find statistics on convictions in acquaintance rape involving alcohol.

 

Alura said:

Many years ago when I was living in London a Scotsman came to a party and got sloppy drunk. His hand was the one pouring the booze down his throat. He was a big guy. Before the evening was over he had slapped a hippie around, then broken an empty wine bottle against a table and threatened to kill the hippie. His girlfriend intervened and probably saved a life... or maybe two.

 

The next day she came around to apologize for him saying basically, "It's not his fault; he was drunk."

 

Well, I thought it was his fault, since he was not forced to drink by anyone other than himself. He never apologized for himself.

I think it was his fault, too.

 

Where I think the logical cul-de-sac arises is that while it's clear that nobody but the drunk is responsible for drinking, to extend that responsibility to encompass bad things that happen to the drunk is an error. If we do that we are saying, more or less, hey, you made yourself into prey so predators got you. While I'm a huge fan of personal responsibility, I think I prefer it when people's errors are not met with that sort of punitive disinterest. Does that make sense?

[cplnuswing 4,713]

mauijanedoe said:

Where I think the logical cul-de-sac arises is that while it's clear that nobody but the drunk is responsible for drinking, to extend that responsibility to encompass bad things that happen to the drunk is an error. If we do that we are saying, more or less, hey, you made yourself into prey so predators got you. While I'm a huge fan of personal responsibility, I think I prefer it when people's errors are not met with that sort of punitive disinterest. Does that make sense?

That's not at all what I was implying. Does rape occur where alcohol is factor? Absolutely, no question about it, and it is just as wrong as rape where no alcohol was involved. What I was replying to was the notion that if someone is drunk, even if that means legally drunk at .09 BAC, does that automatically make it rape regardless of how much consent they gave simply because since they met some definition of drunk and therefore were in fact unable to give that consent to start with. My personal answer to that is no, and it appears the law thinks so too.

 

A woman walks into a police station one morning and says I was raped last night. Talks to a detective and relays the story she was at a bar with friends, had three drinks in about an hour, then left and walked to her apartment two blocks away with a guy from the bar and invites him up for sex. The next morning she is horrified telling her friends that she can't believe she ever would have agreed to have sex with that guy because in the stone cold sober light of day he was hideous, a total ass, married, or whatever. That case is not going anywhere, nobody is going to be charged. Could she have legally driven those two blocks to her apartment? No. Was she unable to give consent to something even though she later severely regretted it? No.

 

Change that story to eight drinks in two hours, staggers out of the bar barely conscious being held up by the guy, and next morning wakes up in her apartment with physical evidence of having intercourse but can't remember exactly what happened. That one might get a little more interest from the police, but still unlikely to go anywhere. Did the guy act morally in that case? Probably not, but personal morality and the law often don't match up.

 

I think the problem with this from a legal standpoint is if being under the influence of alcohol absolves you of legal personal responsibility of your actions, consent in this case, then why doesn't it absolve you from legal responsibility in other actions, say deciding to drive a car, Alura's example of the bar incident, or any of the other stupid decisions people make when drinking? Again, I'm not trying to blame the victim, because in some cases they truly are a victim based on my personal belief system and also the law, but just because there was some level of alcohol doesn't automatically make them a victim.

 

Honestly, it's just not something I worry about. If someone is showing signs of being so drunk that I would have any question, then like others have said, I'm simply not going to be interested in sex with them to start with, so problem solved.

[Alura 2,774]

One night, many years ago, I was in a taxi returning to my hotel in Naples, Italy. On the sidewalk was an American sailor so drunk he could hardly stand. He was being attacked by a gang of six children, who probably ranged from the age of 8 to 10. They had him encircled, attacking him one at a time, like a pack of coyotes on a wounded deer.

 

At first the taxi driver shrugged his shoulders but relented and used his radio to alert someone. He would not stop.

 

Was the sailor at fault because he'd caused his own drunkenness, thereby rendering himself virtually defenseless, or were the kids at fault because of their criminal actions?

[Mr TybeeSwing 201]

Alura said:

 

Was the sailor at fault because he'd caused his own drunkenness, thereby rendering himself virtually defenseless, or were the kids at fault because of their criminal actions?

Speaking from past experience, no Sailor should ever be out alone in Naples.

[Alura 2,774]

Mr TybeeSwing said:

Speaking from past experience, no Sailor should ever be out alone in Naples.

Perhaps that's the reason women often go to bars with a female friend.

[mauijanedoe 1,414]

Alura said:

One night, many years ago, I was in a taxi returning to my hotel in Naples, Italy. On the sidewalk was an American sailor so drunk he could hardly stand. He was being attacked by a gang of six children, who probably ranged from the age of 8 to 10. They had him encircled, attacking him one at a time, like a pack of coyotes on a wounded deer.

 

At first the taxi driver shrugged his shoulders but relented and used his radio to alert someone. He would not stop.

 

Was the sailor at fault because he'd caused his own drunkenness, thereby rendering himself virtually defenseless, or were the kids at fault because of their criminal actions?

 

Mr TybeeSwing is probably wondering what happened to his lovely thread...

 

The sailor was responsible and the children were at fault. His vulnerability was caused by his actions, but people do things that make themselves vulnerable all the time. To take a less loaded example than yours or cplnuswing's second example, you step into a crosswalk and are hit by a bus. You're certainly responsible for being in the crosswalk, because nothing would have happened if you weren't, but the bus driver is clearly at fault.

 

If you're shaking your head saying being in a crosswalk is a very different thing than being drunk, that's what I'm addressing when I talk about punitive indifference. We decide that certain actions for which people are clearly responsible deserve poor outcomes and don't particularly care, while we are outraged and empathetic when poor outcomes logically follow from some other actions.

 

One of the reasons I'm harping on this instead of allowing it to die a merciful death is that it wasn't all that long ago that standard rape defenses focused on the victim's sexual past or style of dress. Because, clearly, both of those things made her responsible for the rape. We've moved on from that, fortunately, but now we're at that slippery edge of another social change, where being drunk may be taken to mean consent cannot happen and is therefore a prosecutable offense. I still don't like drunks, but I applaud the change.

 

All through my teens and into my 20s, I was the one in charge of making sure the drunk chicks didn't wind up naked with a line of guys waiting in the hall. I went to a lot of parties and that pretty well cemented my theories about responsibility and fault.

[cplnuswing 4,713]

mauijanedoe said:

All through my teens and into my 20s, I was the one in charge of making sure the drunk chicks didn't wind up naked with a line of guys waiting in the hall. I went to a lot of parties and that pretty well cemented my theories about responsibility and fault.

We have jacked this thread pretty good, but at least it is closely related I guess. I can totally respect what you are saying. I don't tell this story to say what a great guy I am, but just that in some situations, you don't really know what to do.

 

I had a girlfriend several years younger than me, and she was my first sexual partner, everything short of intercourse. We eventually broke up about the time I graduated high school, and then a year or so later, we didn't rekindle it but we both had a friend that was interested in the other friend, so we all went out a few times. One night we went to a dance the next town over. In those places back then, if you were tall enough to lay your money on the bar, you got a drink handed back to you. We weren't really a couple, so we both were kind of hanging out and just touching base every now and then. She kept getting drunker and drunker. The more she did, the more I was trying to keep up with what she was doing. Finally, I couldn't even find her. After asking around, someone eventually said they had seen her leave with a couple of older guys but didn't know who they were or where they were going. I was totally freaked out, and mad as hell. Not jealous mad, mad that she could be so damn stupid to leave with total strangers in a strange town without telling anybody where she was going. I was even madder at her so-called friend who was more concerned with having her own fun than the very real possibility that at that moment her best friend was getting tag-teamed in the bed of a pickup truck down by the river by a couple of rednecks.

 

Thankfully, she eventually showed back up after a couple of hours just as they were about to close the place, seemingly no worse for wear, but even drunker if that was possible. On the way home, she kept talking smack about what we used to do, which I wasn't interested in at all, and then started saying she needed to pee. I kept telling her she would be home in just a few minutes, but she kept insisting, so finally I pulled off on a field road. She about fell out of the car, literally crawled a few feet away, yanked them down and started peeing with both hands on the ground to try to keep herself upright. I finally had to help her get her jeans and panties back up since she kept falling over when she would try to stand. Got her back into the car and she started back in on I didn't need to take her home yet, we could do it right there, etc. I didn't even answer, just pulled back out on the road, drove the last five minutes to her house, got her to the front door and made sure she got through it, and ended that nightmare.

 

I won't lie, when we were going out, and even afterwards until that night, I had always wanted some of that, bad. But when it was basically thrown at me by someone totally out of their mind drunk, I didn't want it anymore. I still thought of her fondly just from the whole first girlfriend/boyfriend thing we had, but whenever I thought of her after that night, it was always worry about what she was going to get herself into if she didn't start growing up pretty quick. I blamed her, but I blamed myself too. Although as far as I know nothing bad happened to her while she was MIA, I should have never let her get herself into the position she did by leaving, but even if I had known she was going to do it, short of physically restraining her which would have been a whole another issue, not sure what I could have done.

[mauijanedoe 1,414]

cplnuswing said:

I won't lie, when we were going out, and even afterwards until that night, I had always wanted some of that, bad. But when it was basically thrown at me by someone totally out of their mind drunk, I didn't want it anymore. I still thought of her fondly just from the whole first girlfriend/boyfriend thing we had, but whenever I thought of her after that night, it was always worry about what she was going to get herself into if she didn't start growing up pretty quick. I blamed her, but I blamed myself too. Although as far as I know nothing bad happened to her while she was MIA, I should have never let her get herself into the position she did by leaving, but even if I had known she was going to do it, short of physically restraining her which would have been a whole another issue, not sure what I could have done.

Clearly, you are a great guy, whatever stories you tell or don't tell. It was a difficult situation and I hear that you blamed yourself, but it's not always possible to stop a trainwreck.

 

My technique for keeping the drunk girls safe was to either park them next to me with a SIT/STAY or, if they were combative as well as drunk, encourage them to drink more until they passed out. But I wouldn't do it over and over for the same chick, either, because at some point my innate cynicism would kick in.

[Chicup 41]

There is a line between tipsy and drunk.

 

Tipsy = good times.

Drunk = No thanks.

[angelkin 1,326]

Ok, I've never needed the sit/stay command or encouragement to drink more to pass out...and I've long since (years before swinging) cured myself of doing things (or people) that I wouldn't do stone cold sober. Thought I was going to have to put my drinking while swinging in check, but I guess I'm good:)

[CandLinPC 92]

Two words: Informed Consent.

 

I'm not worried about the legal argument, I simply like knowing that my playmate likes having sex with me, and doesn't need to get hammered to do it.

[JustAskJulie 2,595]

mauijanedoe said:

The sailor was responsible and the children were at fault. His vulnerability was caused by his actions, but people do things that make themselves vulnerable all the time.

I have to agree with you here. We are all responsible for our own actions. I am responsible when I choose to drink too much. HOWEVER, if someone else takes advantage of my bad decision then THEY are at fault.

 

I also think this is one of the reasons I wasn't as comfortable trying to swing as a single female as I am as a couple. As a couple, I know I've always got someone there to watch my back. I can't think of a single time that we've both had too much to drink, but there have been a few where one or the other of us has and the sober one has had to step in and end the night early or cut the other off and ensure that they were ok. As a single, you don't really have someone to watch over you. Sure you have friends but they have they are there for their own fun and shouldn't be relied on to make sure that you ok.

 

If I've had too much to drink and someone else takes advantage of that rather than walking away from someone that they know isn't in a position to make an informed decision (.ie. me when I'm drunk) then they have crossed a line. Whether or not it holds up in court, I could care less where the legal line is drawn. It's a moral line and they crossed it.

[Lionheart72 2,190]

What follows is, at best, a semi-rational rant. It will probably hurt some feelings and may well get me kicked off these forums by the very people who tried to convince me to stick around... but what the fuck.

 

Three people have messaged me saying come back, saying the disagreements are just semantics, a different point of view. Don't leave. I'm misreading things, they tell me. I'm taking things in the worst possible way. Come back and talk about, Julie herself says.

 

Ok, so I'm back. What do I see, with my eyes seeing things in the worst possible way? I see moderators... not just members, but moderators... blaming women for being raped. If you drink too much, it's your fault you were raped. No one forced you to drink that much after all. You made a bad decision, you regreted it later, but that's not rape. Women should go out with friends, so they don't get raped.

 

Hey, here's an idea... maybe women shouldn't go out at all. They should stay home, never drink. That way they'll be safe.

 

Or maybe... maybe... we men can actually take some responsibility for ourselves. 'Cause the best way to prevent rape isn't for women to stay sober, or to have some watching your back... it's for men to not rape you. It's for our culture to stop acting like men raping women is inevitable, to stop teaching men that men rape. The way to stop rape is acting like it's ok for men to rape.

 

two4youinswva, you wanted to know how you could tell if someone is too drunk to give informed consent. You wanted to know where that line is. The line is, if you're asking that question, you're over it... and if you're not asking that question, you should be. Because the truth of the matter is after one drink, you are impared. I know, the experienced hard drinkers will say... have said, on this very thread... well, maybe I can't drive but I can still make good judgements. Wake up! One drink impares judgement. One. This isn't an opinion. It's a proven fact. Now, society allows a certain level of imparment when it comes to driving a car. Society allows you to have a beer at lunch and then go to a business meeting... not because it's a good idea, but because we're a society of drunks so we expect a certain level of imparment. So, where is the line? How do you know what the line is?

 

How about respect.

 

We talk about a lot on these forums about honesty, truth, openess, communication. It could all be summed up with respect. We respect ourselves. We respect our spouses. We respect our sex partners.

 

So you look at the person, who'se had a few drinks and you ask yourself: am I treating them with respect, or am I taking advantage of the fact that they're a little "loosned up" because I really want to hit that. If you're seriously asking that question, the answer is already that you are at the line. Don't cross it. For the love of whatever it is you hold dear, do not cross it.

 

There, I said my bit. I've given this discussion more time, more energy, more pain and more struggle then I probably should have... especially since I'm guessing I've just pissed you all off so much that most of you aren't listening anymore. Now I'm done. You may have counter arguements, different "points of view" ... but I will be honest with you. I don't give a shit about your point of view on this. There are some issues that strike too close to the bone. For me, this is one. When it come to someone hurting my people, there are no fucking shades of grey.

[Chicup 41]

I understand this is a passionate topic for you, but for consenting adults in a swinging situation it is unreasonable to expect a zero tolerance style policy.

 

Many women have posted here they like a few drinks to "loosen" up before swinging. There is no way to determine if they want to be loosed up, or somehow this is against their "real" will. I will NOT swing with a woman who is "sloppy drunk", I will not have sex with someone slurring their speech, passing out, having trouble walking etc. I find it unattractive for one thing and we always swing sober.

 

I also won't worry about how impaired someone is after one drink, or even a couple if they seem perfectly fine. If you are choosing to have a few drinks at a swing party, you obviously are choosing the effect of the alcohol has on you. We are normally talking very experienced couples, not high school girls sneaking into a college party for the first time.

 

You haven't pissed me off, you made me feel sorry for you, because obviously something had to have happened to you or someone you care about to have taken such an extreme stance and easy offense at a topic which most of us see as rather benign.

[JustAskJulie 2,595]

Lionheart,

 

Again, I think we are saying the same thing. It comes down to respect and I agree if you are looking at a person wondering if they've had too much to drink, then it's probably better to take a pass than to risk it. That said, I've had a woman walk up to me and tell me I need to 'get control' of my husband because he's had too much. I find him and find that he's on beer #2 and her only issue is that he's flirting with her (evidently, she's not used to having a younger man tell her she's hot - therefore he must be drunk). Even with that, I still agree it's better not to take the risk. When in doubt, walk. As is the advice we give to any "red flags" you see or sense when it comes to swinging.

 

I do get where you come away feeling that some others (including moderators) may be implying or saying that if a woman is drunk and gets taken advantage of she bears some or all of the fault. I hope that's not what they are truly thinking and saying, but if that is what they mean then I'd want to know why they would think that way. For the record, I don't require that moderators share my opinions on all topics (If that were the case, I wouldn't have any moderators), just that they share their opinions with respect for the other members here).

 

And, thank you for coming back and sharing more about your POV on the subject.

[Desdemona1980 297]

I find myself agreeing with Lionheart. I know it's a hard line on the issue, but the risk to the one drinking and the one making the choice to have sex with them is real. In our society it is not likely you will be convicted of rape or sexual assault, you might not be charged. If you are charged, how many tens of thousands of dollars can you afford to hire a lawyer to defend you? If it is someone you know and they called the next and said they couldn't believe you took advantage of them or pushed them further than they were comfortable, how you that affect you? Would you be angry or hurt?

 

I swing as a single female. I swing stone, cold sober every time. If I need or prefer to swing or try something new with liquid courage, it tells me I'm not as comfortable doing what I am doing as I should be. If I am not comfortable with someone or a situation 100% sober, I shouldn't be doing it/them.

 

It doesn't take someone being sloppy, falling down, slurring their speech drunk to be too far gone to give consent. Anything beyond a mild buzz is an automatic "no" from me, and then sometimes even a mild buzz is a no go. I try to watch people before they get to that state. Are they comfortable and enjoying themselves? Are they uptight or wary? What is their demeanor BEFORE they drink? If I don't see them before they start drinking, it's a noes goes.

 

Too many people are at clubs at the urging of their partners and not because they really want to be there. Three drinks in they can still form words and walk a straight line, but their spouses are good at manipulating them in their less inhibited state. I don't want to be a part of that.

 

If you don't desire me while you're sober why should I fuck you/blow you/please you while you're buzzed/drunk?

 

My newbie, single girl two cents.

[angelkin 1,326]

Lionheart, glad to see you came back and posted your thoughts. I can certainly see your point of view and I am sorry to hear that this discussion hits close to home for you...that certainly puts a different spin on things.

 

Thanks for coming back to further share your thoughts.

[Alura 2,774]

...There are some issues that strike too close to the bone. For me, this is one. When it come to someone hurting my people, there are no fucking shades of grey.

 

I find the way you phrased the above interesting. Are you Native American? If not, who are "my people?"

 

If so, you're probably familiar with William T. Sherman and his nationally published (with some laudatory comments) remark: "I know how to solve the Indian Problem. Give 'em whiskey. Kills 'em like flies."

 

I'm no great fan of the white man's poison water. But, I am a fan of taking responsibility for one's own actions, like turning up a pint of whiskey and chugging it, for instance. Now for another question:

 

I know we've all seen women who become more than flirtatious when drinking. How about if a drunk woman says, "C'mon Handsome, I need some cock!" Suppose "Handsome" takes her word for what she wants to do, but in the morning she claims not to remember it at all and claims he took advantage of her drunkeness. (I rarely believe someone who claims to not remember what happened while drunk.) Should he be charged with rape?

 

Alura

[Lionheart72 2,190]

Alura said:

I know we've all seen women who become more than flirtatious when drinking. How about if a drunk woman says, "C'mon Handsome, I need some cock!" Suppose "Handsome" takes her word for what she wants to do, but in the morning she claims not to remember it at all and claims he took advantage of her drunkenness. (I rarely believe someone who claims to not remember what happened while drunk.) Should he be charged with rape?

Yes.