The Wasted Encounter

[Mr TybeeSwing 201]

Well this thread has gotten interesting, not quite what I had in mind, but interesting. Since I am the OP I thought I should add my two cents in to the new train of thought. Now I am probably going to irritate quite a number of you, perhaps all but bear with me. I think the number one problem with our country today is the "Twinkie" defense. Years ago the twinkie defense was used at a trail as an excuse to why the accused was not guilty. "You honor my ate some many twinkies that they drove him mad, so he can't be guilty." Younger people will laugh at this but I am not making it up.

 

Well jump to our topic today.....

 

Her,

 

I was drinking and I had sex with him, He raped me. Did he buy you the drinks? "No"....Did he force you to drink? "No"....Did he drug your drink? "No".....Did he approach you for sex? "No"......Did you tell him to stop? "No".....Did you tell him you were drunk? "No"....Did you approach him for sex? "Yes"......Do you remember having sex? "Yes".....Did you tell him to stop? "No".... Did he rape you? "Yes, I was drinking"

 

Him,

 

Did you rape her? "No"....Did she approach you? "Yes".....Was she drinking? "Yes".....Was she drunk? "I think so".....Did she tell you to stop? "No".....Did you drug her? "No"......Did she know where she was the next morning? "Yes".....Was she drunk? "Yes".....Did you rape her? "No"

 

 

My take

 

They are both at fault........

 

Her,

 

Face it ......SHE IS AN IDIOT, or she has a problem. Let's change it to robbery instead of rape.....She gets drunk and then gives her brand new cell phone to someone because she doesn't want it anymore. The next day she accuses that person of stealing it because "I was drunk when I gave it away"....How about vehicular homicide....She gets drunk and drives and runs into someone and kills them, "It is not my fault, I was drunk" "It is Jim Beams fault, they made the alcohol".......Why did the ability to be held responsible for one act because you were drinking start meaning you couldn't be held responsible for something else you did because you were drinking? Face it people, you cant have it both ways, either it is your fault for drinking or it is not......If it isn't your fault the people at MADD sure wasted a lot of time.

 

Him,

 

Face it.....THIS GUY IS AN ASSHOLE, or he has a problem. Any one that has to have sex with the drunk chick is in my book a poor excuse for a man. Legally is he guilty of rape? Depends on the state or country that you are standing in at the moment. Does this guy deserved to have his dick cut off and shoved up his ass? In my opinion HELL YES.

 

So for me it comes down to this. TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOUR OWN ACTIONS. Stop blaming other people. Rape is probably the most horrible thing one person can do another person. You steal a piece of their soul, something that is very hard to replace. Before you ask, yes I do know what I am talking about, someone very close to me, my first wife, was raped and we lived with it for years. But rape is stealing that piece of soul from someone, not being stupid enough to accept it when it is handed to you. In our society today it is never your own fault, everyone is a victim. Well people there are two kinds of people in my book, people that are victims and people that are the victims of a crime but refuse to be victimized. Think about it.

 

I see the posts that state that this country looks the other way in the case of rape (paraphrased). Compared to who? In this country you can be convicted of raping your wife, try that in some other countries and tell me how it works. In this country we have a legal age of consent, in other countries they sell there daughters. (Hell, in Saudi Arabia slavery wasn't outlawed until the early 1960's). Are we perfect? No, but we are a damned site closer than 90 percent of the world, even our enlightened brothers in Europe.

[Desdemona1980 297]

Alura said:

I know we've all seen women who become more than flirtatious when drinking. How about if a drunk woman says, "C'mon Handsome, I need some cock!" Suppose "Handsome" takes her word for what she wants to do, but in the morning she claims not to remember it at all and claims he took advantage of her drunkenness. (I rarely believe someone who claims to not remember what happened while drunk.) Should he be charged with rape?

Yes, in your scenario it sounds as though he knows she is drunk. If someone is known to be drunk, legally speaking, they cannot give consent.

 

Now let's step away from the legalities of it and look into the ethical and, dare I say, moral aspect of it. What kind of person decides the happiness of their dick or pussy is more important than the safety (physically, emotionally, spiritually) of another person. If a drunk man or woman approaches you at a swing event and openly makes it known they want to fuck like animals and you've been eyeing them all night, because let's face it, they are hot and freaky, do you place them below the wants of yourself? Do you walk away and keep your character and integrity intact, or do you let it all go for a piece of ass?

 

If swinging is based on respect, to whom due we grant that respect? Ourselves, ourselves and our S/Os only, or to all we are willing to interact with?

 

I agree with Mr Tybee, it is MY responsibility to keep myself as safe as possible, but in the event I make a bad choice, that does not mean I choose or deserved to be raped. I know (even at swing events) there are men that will target women who are intoxicated or very close to it. It is why I swing only stone cold sober. Now, for the ones willing to fuck the drunk person. IT IS ALSO YOUR RESPONSIBILITY TO KEEP YOU AND YOUR FAMILY SAFE!!!! Knowing the lines of consent while drunk are blurry, you take a risk EVERY TIME you engage with drunk or buzzed people. You CANNOT throw your arms up and yell "UNFAIR", if someone you have sex with while they are drunk makes a charge against you. Whether that charge is through legal channels or the swinger's grapevine. If women have to live with the risk of being raped because it's their fault they drank that night, men have to live with the risk they will be charged with rape. The responsibility lies with both parties, but just as I am a victim of theft if someone burglarizes my home when I leave the door unlocked, I am also the victim of rape if a men has sex with me when I am unable to consent. So, women protect yourselves, and men protect yourselves. The moral of the story is, having sex with an impaired person is a risk, make sure it's worth it legally and integrity wise.

 

For the men who take advantage of that type of situation, it's simple, you are not men.

 

What if I am drinking a beverage one night and it's "virgin" but it looks like it could be alcoholic. Unbeknownst to me someone slips something into my drink and I drink enough to look buzzed or drunk, but not enough to be unconscious. I don't say "no" because I don't really fully know what's going on and you have your way with me. The next day your buddy from the club calls and says, "Hey that girl you fucked last night, wasn't drunk, she was drugged." How do you feel? What if I file rape charges? Am I a bitch because I didn't say "no"?

 

Why is it worth the risk to yourself or the drunk person for a dick waxing? On any given night there are other people waiting to wax it for you, or you can come back tomorrow.

[Chicup 41]

I had a couple of drinks the other night at a get together to relax and loosen up a bit myself. I rarely drink so it only takes a couple.

 

Was I raped?

[Desdemona1980 297]

Chicup said:

I had a couple of drinks the other night at a get together to relax and loosen up a bit myself. I rarely drink so it only takes a couple.

 

Was I raped?

You would have to answer that question for yourself. That's where the risk comes in for the people having sex with impaired parties. The impaired person gets to decide if they were raped, then the onus is on the prosecution to prove it's case. Whether or not a person is charged, taken to trial or convicted is not totally the point. I would not think the days, weeks or months leading up to those decisions by the detectives or the DA would be worth a couple of hours of sex. Can you imagine getting the call that you've been accused and an investigation is pending. If a police report is filed, it is now public knowledge. Will it matter if the charges are dropped if your name has already been destroyed in the court of public opinion? And let's be honest, if a report is filed that someone is claiming rape at a swing club or event, that is more than likely hitting the papers.

[Alura 2,774]

Alright, so it seems that people who go to clubs that sell (or encourage in some way) alcohol are taking a risk of being charged with rape, whether male or female. Since making a decision as to whether a potential play partner is too drunk to give concent, what is the answer to this question? Should the clubs ensure that there is no alcohol on the premises, in order to protect their patrons? If that's the case, what should be done about those who would smuggle it in?

 

Since it would be difficult, if not impossible, to accurately determine if someone is too drunk, should everyone, to avoid rape charges, turn down everybody who has been drinking? If so, how many people would be left with whom to play?

 

Is the club responsible at all?

[Desdemona1980 297]

Alura said:

Alright, so it seems that people who go to clubs that sell (or encourage in some way) alcohol are taking a risk of being charged with rape, whether male or female. Since making a decision as to whether a potential play partner is too drunk to give concent, what is the answer to this question? Should the clubs ensure that there is no alcohol on the premises, in order to protect their patrons? If that's the case, what should be done about those who would smuggle it in?

 

Since it would be difficult, if not impossible, to accurately determine if someone is too drunk, should everyone, to avoid rape charges, turn down everybody who has been drinking? If so, how many people would be left with whom to play?

 

Is the club responsible at all?

For me, *some* risk is manageable, but not much. For me, it is less worrying about the legal ramifications and making sure the person/people I'm with would want to be with me w/o drinking. I don't care to be sexual with people who need alcohol to get them ready or "loose enough".

 

Like I said before, I watch their demeanor before and after they having been drinking. Are they sexual, sensual and playful before they drink? If they are a couple, how do they act toward one another? I'm not saying it's easy or there is a sure-fire way of knowing if someone is beyond consent. We all take risks by swinging, but most of those risks include damage to only ourselves and our partners.

 

I don't want to risk someone else, especially in a way that is so deeply hurtful. I don't ever want someone to wake up and feel as though I have violated them because I didn't respect boundaries.

 

I don't feel bad about turning away people even after one drink. They can find someone else to take that risk and they often do. I'm sure 99.9% of the time if someone feels violated after having sex in a swing situation (even if it is rape), it is not reported. Most people would not want to open themselves up to public opinion in that manner.

 

Again, just my thoughts.

[JustAskJulie 2,595]

Desdemona1980 said:

Now let's step away from the legalities of it and look into the ethical and, dare I say, moral aspect of it. What kind of person decides the happiness of their dick or pussy is more important than the safety (physically, emotionally, spiritually) of another person. If a drunk man or woman approaches you at a swing event and openly makes it known they want to fuck like animals and you've been eyeing them all night, because let's face it, they are hot and freaky, do you place them below the wants of yourself? Do you walk away and keep your character and integrity intact, or do you let it all go for a piece of ass?

All of these situation imply that one person is sober and the other person is drunk, RARELY in a swinging situation (or any drinking situation) is this the case. I'd say that most of the time both people have been drinking. In that case both are likely to make bad judgement calls and I don't think either one can be held more to blame than the other.

 

Quote

What if I am drinking a beverage one night and it's "virgin" but it looks like it could be alcoholic. Unbeknownst to me someone slips something into my drink and I drink enough to look buzzed or drunk, but not enough to be unconscious. I don't say "no" because I don't really fully know what's going on and you have your way with me. The next day your buddy from the club calls and says, "Hey that girl you fucked last night, wasn't drunk, she was drugged." How do you feel? What if I file rape charges? Am I a bitch because I didn't say "no"?

This is where the line becomes more clear. There is clear intention on the part of whomever drugged you more mal-intent. Where things get trickier is if the person you had sex with was not the person who slipped you something. Should someone else be held responsible for raping you if as far as they knew you were a perfectly willing and not overly drunk? If it's proven that you were drugged, they likely would be held responsible regardless of whether or not they were the one that drugged you.

 

There are a lot of different scenarios that could occur and so many layers in each one. I don't think you can make any sort of blanket statement that it's always rape or that both parties are always equally responsible, or that one person isn't responsible at all.

[Desdemona1980 297]

JustAskJulie said:

All of these situation imply that one person is sober and the other person is drunk, RARELY in a swinging situation (or any drinking situation) is this the case. I'd say that most of the time both people have been drinking. In that case both are likely to make bad judgement calls and I don't think either one can be held more to blame than the other.

 

This is where the line becomes more clear. There is clear intention on the part of whomever drugged you more mal-intent. Where things get trickier is if the person you had sex with was not the person who slipped you something. Should someone else be held responsible for raping you if as far as they knew you were a perfectly willing and not overly drunk? If it's proven that you were drugged, they likely would be held responsible regardless of whether or not they were the one that drugged you.

 

There are a lot of different scenarios that could occur and so many layers in each one. I don't think you can make any sort of blanket statement that it's always rape or that both parties are always equally responsible, or that one person isn't responsible at all.

That is my point. The legal line is so blurry and undefined, it creates risk. One doesn't have to be malicious to get hit with a charge. Someone could honestly believe they had consent and in the light of day to the other person, they see it differently. *IF* a charge is filed, all hell can brake loose and lives are altered, deserved or not.

 

If both people are drinking or drunk, a charge can still be filed and then it's up to the police or DA to sort it out. It still is not a call I want to get.

 

Both parties are responsible FOR THEMSELVES, and the equality of responsibility will be handled in a court of law or court of public opinion, neither are "fair and balanced", so weigh your risk and make decisions as you see fit. We each do every time we swing, but not everyone thinks of the risk of rape or being accused of it, right or wrong.

[Desdemona1980 297]

JustAskJulie said:

Should someone else be held responsible for raping you if as far as they knew you were a perfectly willing and not overly drunk? If it's proven that you were drugged, they likely would be held responsible regardless of whether or not they were the one that drugged you.

Yes, 100%, absolutely they should. If I am in an impaired state and cannot (according to the law) give consent, that person should be held responsible. That is my point about risk. It isn't always easy to know what is going on with a person once they are in that impaired state or how they got into that state. Under what circumstances did hey start drinking? Are they drinking because if they don't they will end up in a fight with their s/o later because they weren't "loose enough" to swing that night?

 

There are too many scenarios that end with someone quietly and painfully feeling violated or feeling self-loathing for allowing themselves to "do that".

[Alura 2,774]

Desdemona seems to be making a very good case for couples to never play with single women; the risk is just too great!

 

Single men might be well advised to avoid couples who have had drinks.

 

I remember fondly the times we played with couples without drinking and never in clubs.

[JustAskJulie 2,595]

Desdemona1980 said:

Yes, 100%, absolutely they should. If I am in an impaired state and cannot (according to the law) give consent, that person should be held responsible. That is my point about risk. It isn't always easy to know what is going on with a person once they are in that impaired state or how they got into that state. Under what circumstances did hey start drinking? Are they drinking because if they don't they will end up in a fight with their s/o later because they weren't "loose enough" to swing that night?

It sounds like the argument you are making is that one should never have sex with someone else who has been drinking at all. Would that be an accurate take away? What if you don't know they have been drinking (as in your scenario earlier where they are drinking a virgin drink).

 

I fall into the camp of personal responsibility. If someone forces me to do something then it's rape. If I have not said no (or better yet show enthusiasm) then I have no right to cry rape the next day. I may regret what happened (and that's happened a time or two) but I take responsibility when I didn't make any effort to say no.

[Chicup 41]

Being charged with rape is easy, anyone can claim it, being convicted is another thing. This would be even more difficult in a swinger situation to prove it was in fact rape being there tends to be other witnesses.

 

Your wife witnessed this event?

Yes

And where was she?

Next to me.

And what was she doing?

Having sex with the defendant's husband.

 

When it comes to rape, just having a few drinks doesn't make all sex suddenly rape if the other party decides to claim it.

[Desdemona1980 297]

JustAskJulie said:

It sounds like the argument you are making is that one should never have sex with someone else who has been drinking at all. Would that be an accurate take away?

Not at all, I am saying to understand the risk and take on what you are comfortable with. Everyone is willing to take on different levels of risk depending on the issue.

 

This is an area I don't like to risk, and not because I'm worried about legal aspects. I'm worried about the effect it has on the other person. I know I'm in the minority on this one and I am comfortable with that.

[Alura 2,774]

I like to see a woman who is comfortable with her ideas. I was married to one for the better part of thirty years.

[km34 672]

We had a group come on campus one year distributing information about alcohol safety and their rule of thumb (which aligns pretty well with what I've been able to find of court cases) is that if a person is still able to be ENTHUSIASTICALLY involved and responsive, then he/she is consenting. If the person has reached the point of nonresponsiveness, physical illness, or other physical signs that he/she isn't aware of what is going on THEN it is sexual assault/rape. A person who drinks knowingly enters into a state where inhibitions are lowered. Just like a drunk driver is responsible for killing someone, a drunk fucker is responsible for fucking someone.

 

Personally, I'm pretty on board with that. Drunk people are quite often fun, so as long as I don't have previous knowledge of them either having a rule against screwing me or a preference against getting involved with me for some other reason, I'm going to enjoy myself if they proposition me and I'm attracted to them. There are other non-physical turn offs that a lot of drunk people exhibit (language/respect issues, the smell of alcohol, etc) that may make me not attracted, too, but I wouldn't feel morally or legally liable for having sex with someone who was enthusiastically having sex with me, unless they'd been drugged or otherwise affected by something that they were not aware of (as opposed to strictly being drunk which they knowingly did).

 

On another note... What about guys who sleep with women they normally wouldn't (we've all seen it in movies if not heard stories/experienced it in real life - "I got SO wasted last night then when I woke up this morning there was this ugly woman in my bed! I can't believe I did that!" kind of thing)? Was that guy raped since the unattractive woman took advantage of his drunkenness to get her some?

 

Personally, I like having a few drinks now and then. I know perfectly well, though, how I get when I'm drinking so I won't do it if I'm going to be around someone(s) I don't want to screw OR hubby is with me to make sure I don't do anything stupid. Would I call rape if I had sex with someone I normally wouldn't have? It's happened, and heck no it wasn't rape. It was ME making a decision that I wanted to have sex because I was drunk and horny.

[JustAskJulie 2,595]

Someone on my FB list posted this and I thought it was oddly appropriate to this particular discussion.

 

 

[LFM2 1,482]

km34 said:

Personally, I like having a few drinks now and then. I know perfectly well, though, how I get when I'm drinking so I won't do it if I'm going to be around someone(s) I don't want to screw OR hubby is with me to make sure I don't do anything stupid. Would I call rape if I had sex with someone I normally wouldn't have? It's happened, and heck no it wasn't rape. It was ME making a decision that I wanted to have sex because I was drunk and horny.

OK.... Here is where some real truth begins (for me, anyway).

 

I admit it -- I like to drink. I don't get drunk when we swing, in fact, I stop at two beers, wines, mixed drinks and can say I've been responsible (except one time at a Halloween Party) but in my younger years (30 years ago; post divorce, pre marriage), my drinking often got the best of me.

 

I very often had sex with men when I was greased up. I was nowhere near passed out drunk or even sick drunk. Just drunk and horny enough I wanted them bad. They were the same two men, over and over again. There was no force. No Coercion. Do I blame them? My lord, no. It was MY doing. My irresponsibility. My stupid behavior. ME! ME!! I don't blame the establishment that mixed my drinks, I don't blame the guys that I had sex with. I own that memory all on my own. I'd love to blame someone else because those memories are not quite stellar, and I'm a bit ashamed of how I behaved in the past. But, alas, I can't. It was all me.

[SW_PA_Couple 4,024]

JustAskJulie said:

Someone on my FB list posted this and I thought it was oddly appropriate to this particular discussion.

Red Solo cup, I lift you up, . . .

 

JoAnn once leveled the accusation at me that I would do anything in a skirt (Levies 501s included by implication). Not true. These I would bypass. Too many Coronas are showing on their faces.

[sweet_tna 680]

Lionheart, while I respect the passion you show in your posts, I am still in agreement with Chicup on this one, including his suggestion that something must have happened to you or someone you love. I hope we're wrong in thinking this, but if not, I am truly sorry that it did.

 

I value the opinions you've offered here and hope you do choose to stick around the board.

[slevin 1,374]

Lionheart72 said:

Yes.

What if he was also drunk? It's not a facetious question, it is an honest, and earnest, question. This is a difficult and emotional topic for a lot of people, but I have really appreciated the open, and honest, discussion of all aspects of the topic.

[Swing*8701 887]

Well, I have found two glasses of 'courage' are allowable for a playmate. Personally, I like my wits about me. -- Susan

 

I would be concerned if I had the slightest inclination that the woman I was about to have sex with would have any regrets about it afterwards. Especially if alcohol were involved.-- Edison

[Just Passing By 140]

Yes , no , maybe , sort of/ not , depends ., and depends on the semntics.

 

Some people customarily have a cpl drinks in any social situation, wether sexual or not.

 

Lots of people have a cpl drinks and doesn't effect their personality or behavior.

 

Some people after a few drinks loosen up enough to enjoy ... Dancing , singing , having conversations longer than 3 words , etc. And sometimes also be more enthuiastic for adventursome sex wether with usual partner , or (what/ whomever).

 

And sometimes become unpleasent. And sometimes complete assholes.

 

Be observent, use your judgement.

 

And back when we * did what we occsionlly used to do * , if I'd enjoyed a bit of Old #7 , the "problem" was that Mr. Happy wouldn't ever go down .

[hot4u27720 15]

I know we've all seen women who become more than flirtatious when drinking. How about if a drunk woman says, "C'mon Handsome, I need some cock!" Suppose "Handsome" takes her word for what she wants to do, but in the morning she claims not to remember it at all and claims he took advantage of her drunkenness. (I rarely believe someone who claims to not remember what happened while drunk.) Should he be charged with rape?

 

I would also like to know if "Handsome" also had a drink ,would the drunk woman, be charge with rape for propositioning him?

[Hippiegirlie 276]

I'm not going to touch the entire legal aspect of this conversation. We have laws, courts, trials and verdicts to do that and, frankly, wrong or right, it's a case by case decision. There is no legal limit of intoxication at which a person is considered to be too intoxicated to be of sound judgment, only to be too impaired to drive. I can only speak for myself; I do not drink while playing. I have always felt that if I needed a boost of any kind in order to be in a situation then I shouldn't be there. Consuming alcohol greatly increases your risk of doing something/someone you wouldn't have otherwise and is directly linked to an increased risk of contracting a STD. I prefer my sex stone cold sober so I can enjoy every moment of it.

[wwjdcb 25]

While we are not swingers, we have played on a number of occasions with 2 different couples. EVERY time we had consumed alcohol (all involved). My wife is simply more laid back when she has had a few. Now, none of us was blackout drunk or sick but probably over the legal threshold to drive. My wife nor anyone else involved has ever mentioned any regret other than "we have to do that sober, so we can be more focused". Inevitably, it doesn't happen again until the right circumstances line up and that usually involves a night out with alcohol involved. We have never planned. Taking the hard line in this area is really the safest route. You won't be at risk if you never involve yourself with someone who has consumed alcohol or drugs. Likewise, don't use if you plan on playing. That's the easy answer, although it is not the way we conduct ourselves. We don't get involved with strangers so i have no personal experience. To be perfectly honest though, if we were at a club and were getting hit on by a couple we found attractive that were drinking, we would do it. Now i'm not talking ridiculous drunk but not necessarily sober either. I have no interest in taking advantage of drunk women. I passed that up many times when i was young. But i would play with someone who was buzzed. I respect everyones opinion in this matter. There is no definitive right answer for everyone-just what your able to accept as far as consequences go.