Wish I didn't know now what I didn't know then...

[3rdtimesacharm 15]

New to this scene, remarried for 4 years to the man of my dreams - the best lover I have ever had, very knowledgeable, sensual and will do just about anything to please me - he is into anal and so am I and I have so enjoyed playing with him - he has introduced me to so many other new things.

 

Years ago (with my ex) I had a disastrous threesome with a former friend, and my take-away from that was that some things are just better left a fantasy. So I fantasize about lesbian sex but truly have no desire to act on it. I sometimes share these fantasies with him but not so much lately (more on that later). He fantasizes about being the "bottom" in a MM sexual encounter and is obsessed with finding a FMM experience (for himself, not me). Last week I found out he was posting and replying to CL ads for casual sex looking for the other M for his fantasy. I was devastated - not that he was interested in men, obviously, because he has shared that with me (tho after we were married:() but because of the deception.

 

He is taking the steps to make his fantasy a reality and I am in the dark. For more than a year he has been bringing up going to a local swing club, and I have brought up all the reasons why I am really not that interested - we are older, not Ken and Barbie, the scene at the club seems younger, there was a violent incident there not long ago, and really, the bottom line (no pun intended) is that for right now, I really don't want to have sex with anyone but him.

 

Before you'll go thinking I am a prude or conservative let me assure you I am not - I am a live and let live sort - I do not judge others - I have some fairly kinky desires but they happen to revolve around him, period. For instance, before I met him I was always hoping I would find someone who would enjoy letting me play with his butt, because that is a real turn on for me - so like I said he IS the man of my dreams, quite literally. However, the thought of someone else touching me sexually is a real turn off for me. And I am no kid - I know who I am - like Jessica Rabbit said "I'm not bad, I'm just drawn that way" LOL

 

I have shared ALL of this with him, multiple times. He has told me he only wants to have this MM experience if I am with him - but my rule is if you want to really know a person, forget all their words and just look at their deeds. When you apply that rule here you can see my dilemma.

 

The thought of a FMM encounter leaves me tepid, at best - and at worst it scares me - what if he decides that this is really his sexual orientation? We have friends who "came out" in middle age, left their families and started over. All of which I pointed out to him when I told him I had seen his emails.

 

His position is that he has done nothing wrong, that my disinterest left him no other choice. He feels I have criticized him for having these feelings, but when I ask him when and how, he cannot remember. I never meant to make him feel bad for sharing with me, but before this I always felt that we were a team - that we had each others backs, and that we would work our way through this together. I certainly wasn't going to deny him this pleasure he wants so badly, but it was how to go about it and when that was hanging me up. This past year has been a very tough one for me for other reasons, so admittedly I put this situation on the back burner.

 

I can see now that this is going to happen, with or without my consent or participation. It may already have happened - I cannot really trust his word right now - he is so obsessed I think his judgment might be impaired.

 

I have already found many answers here - like why do people swing? (sex, intimacy, excitement, relief from monotony) How do they keep their relationships solid? (communication, rules, boundaries, trust) What is fidelity? is it physical, emotional, both? What constitutes sex? (jury is still out on that one). I have learned many new terms and acronyms:). I have also seen how over-eager pushy partners shoot themselves in the foot by thinking only of what they want and need, and not what their partner is really truly ready for.

 

And I have seen people get into this lifestyle for all the wrong reasons - trying to please their partner, fear of loss, ambivalence, boredom, and using it as an escape from a relationship that is flawed and unhappy.

 

So, I am working my way through the deceit - getting tested for STD's tomorrow, reminding myself to be scrupulous with my words, to not make assumptions.

 

I have asked him, as a stop gap measure, to please BCC me on all future CL communications, he agreed but again I have little confidence in his truthfulness right now. I figured then I could at least not feel like a cuckold spouse, and who knows, maybe he will find the perfect, DDF, NSA man to initiate him. Still not sure where that leaves me - whether I would want to be there or not, participate or not.

 

Some questions for the forum:

 

Have you ever gone into a swing scenario with this degree of trepidation I describe, and found that you actually enjoyed yourself?

 

Have any of the women out there been through this particular FMM situation, and can they offer additional information? I make this gender specific, because I know full well that in reverse, you guys cannot feel my pain ("yeah, my wife is totally obsessed with hooking up with another chick on CL so she can experience lesbian sex, she insists that I be there" - righhhhtttt).

 

Any other examples of rules and boundaries that you experienced swingers use? How do you enforce them?

 

My sweet man is hurt and vulnerable about all of this, and I do not want to make him feel any worse, but I kind of need some extra assurances that there will be no more secrets. Ideas?

 

How do you rebuild trust after something like this?

 

At this point, with the direction things have taken, I almost think that I should go with him to a swing club or encourage him to find a M to pre-empt another episode of quasi-infidelity - is that a totally crazy idea?

[Lionheart72 2,190]

Wow... red flags waving all over the place. Ok, first things first... what your partner is doing isn't swinging. It's cheating. Period. Now, with that in mind, answering your questions in reverse...

 

At this point, with the direction things have taken, I almost think that I should go with him to a swing club or encourage him to find a M to pre-empt another episode of quasi-infidelity - is that a totally crazy idea?

 

There have been some length discussions about using swinging to prevent cheating. My view remains that it doesn't work. Swinging is about honestly, openness, trust and shared experiences. Cheating is about lies, concealment, secrecy and hidden experiences. Swinging builds relationships. Cheating damages them. They are antithetical. Swinging is not a cure or prevention for cheating.

 

How do you rebuild trust after something like this?

 

With long hard work, lots of communication and total honesty. You aren't going to trust him for a while. He needs to work, hard to win back your trust.

 

My sweet man is hurt and vulnerable about all of this, and I do not want to make him feel any worse, but I kind of need some extra assurances that there will be no more secrets. Ideas?

 

Yes. Stop apologizing for him. He's lying to you. He's cheating on you, or planning to cheat on you. He is not the victim here. You are. He needs to work to win back your trust. If he is not willing do to the work... to be worthy of your trust and your love... any work you do is wasted effort.

 

Any other examples of rules and boundaries that you experienced swingers use? How do you enforce them?

 

For me, it all comes down to communication, honesty and trust. The rest is just details. You need to honestly say what you feel, what you want, what you are comfortable with, your partner needs to do the same and you need to both know that your are being completely honest. You can't "enforce" this... because you can't force trust or honesty. They are either there or they aren't.

 

Have any of the women out there been through this particular FMM situation, and can they offer additional information? I make this gender specific, because I know full well that in reverse, you guys cannot feel my pain

 

I would argue that either gender can understand the concept of "my partner is obsessing about having sex with someone else, is secretly trying to make their fantasy a reality and is cheating or planning to cheat on me." The gender specific nature of the partner and their obsession is irrelevant. I think lot of people can give you advice in that context. I, sadly (or happily), cannot. The time I was cheated on was a one-night-stand, my partner was honest about it and we worked very hard to resolve it and eventually she earned back my trust.

 

Have you ever gone into a swing scenario with this degree of trepidation I describe, and found that you actually enjoyed yourself?

 

I've never been in this situation... but I cannot begin to imagine it working. Before you can swing successfully, you need to have a strong, secure relationship based on honesty, trust and good communication. You don't have that.

 

My final thoughts are just a repeat of what I said before: Stop apologizing for him. Stop treating him as the victim. Stop trying to figure out what you can do to make him more trustworthy. He is the one doing things wrong. If he isn't willing to change course and actively seek your forgiveness... leave. Just walk away.

[Partyperks847 123]

New to this scene, remarried for 4 years to the man of my dreams - the best lover I have ever had, very knowledgeable, sensual and will do just about anything to please me - he is into anal and so am I and I have so enjoyed playing with him - he has introduced me to so many other new things.

 

Years ago (with my ex) I had a disastrous threesome with a former friend, and my take-away from that was that some things are just better left a fantasy. So I fantasize about lesbian sex but truly have no desire to act on it. I sometimes share these fantasies with him but not so much lately (more on that later). He fantasizes about being the "bottom" in a MM sexual encounter and is obsessed with finding a FMM experience (for himself, not me). Last week I found out he was posting and replying to CL ads for casual sex looking for the other M for his fantasy. I was devastated - not that he was interested in men, obviously, because he has shared that with me (tho after we were married:() but because of the deception.

 

He is taking the steps to make his fantasy a reality and I am in the dark. For more than a year he has been bringing up going to a local swing club, and I have brought up all the reasons why I am really not that interested - we are older, not Ken and Barbie, the scene at the club seems younger, there was a violent incident there not long ago, and really, the bottom line (no pun intended) is that for right now, I really don't want to have sex with anyone but him.

 

Before you'll go thinking I am a prude or conservative let me assure you I am not - I am a live and let live sort - I do not judge others - I have some fairly kinky desires but they happen to revolve around him, period. For instance, before I met him I was always hoping I would find someone who would enjoy letting me play with his butt, because that is a real turn on for me - so like I said he IS the man of my dreams, quite literally. However, the thought of someone else touching me sexually is a real turn off for me. And I am no kid - I know who I am - like Jessica Rabbit said "I'm not bad, I'm just drawn that way" LOL

 

I have shared ALL of this with him, multiple times. He has told me he only wants to have this MM experience if I am with him - but my rule is if you want to really know a person, forget all their words and just look at their deeds. When you apply that rule here you can see my dilemma.

 

The thought of a FMM encounter leaves me tepid, at best - and at worst it scares me - what if he decides that this is really his sexual orientation? We have friends who "came out" in middle age, left their families and started over. All of which I pointed out to him when I told him I had seen his emails.

 

His position is that he has done nothing wrong, that my disinterest left him no other choice. He feels I have criticized him for having these feelings, but when I ask him when and how, he cannot remember. I never meant to make him feel bad for sharing with me, but before this I always felt that we were a team - that we had each others backs, and that we would work our way through this together. I certainly wasn't going to deny him this pleasure he wants so badly, but it was how to go about it and when that was hanging me up. This past year has been a very tough one for me for other reasons, so admittedly I put this situation on the back burner.

 

I can see now that this is going to happen, with or without my consent or participation. It may already have happened - I cannot really trust his word right now - he is so obsessed I think his judgment might be impaired.

 

I have already found many answers here - like why do people swing? (sex, intimacy, excitement, relief from monotony) How do they keep their relationships solid? (communication, rules, boundaries, trust) What is fidelity? is it physical, emotional, both? What constitutes sex? (jury is still out on that one). I have learned many new terms and acronyms:). I have also seen how over-eager pushy partners shoot themselves in the foot by thinking only of what they want and need, and not what their partner is really truly ready for.

 

And I have seen people get into this lifestyle for all the wrong reasons - trying to please their partner, fear of loss, ambivalence, boredom, and using it as an escape from a relationship that is flawed and unhappy.

 

So, I am working my way through the deceit - getting tested for STD's tomorrow, reminding myself to be scrupulous with my words, to not make assumptions.

 

I have asked him, as a stop gap measure, to please BCC me on all future CL communications, he agreed but again I have little confidence in his truthfulness right now. I figured then I could at least not feel like a cuckold spouse, and who knows, maybe he will find the perfect, DDF, NSA man to initiate him. Still not sure where that leaves me - whether I would want to be there or not, participate or not.

 

Some questions for the forum:

 

Have you ever gone into a swing scenario with this degree of trepidation I describe, and found that you actually enjoyed yourself?

 

Have any of the women out there been through this particular FMM situation, and can they offer additional information? I make this gender specific, because I know full well that in reverse, you guys cannot feel my pain ("yeah, my wife is totally obsessed with hooking up with another chick on CL so she can experience lesbian sex, she insists that I be there" - righhhhtttt).

 

Any other examples of rules and boundaries that you experienced swingers use? How do you enforce them?

 

My sweet man is hurt and vulnerable about all of this, and I do not want to make him feel any worse, but I kind of need some extra assurances that there will be no more secrets. Ideas?

 

How do you rebuild trust after something like this?

 

At this point, with the direction things have taken, I almost think that I should go with him to a swing club or encourage him to find a M to pre-empt another episode of quasi-infidelity - is that a totally crazy idea?

 

The breach of trust voids all other questions as far as I am concerned. If you can work through , fix and get past that, then and only then can you resolve the rest. IMO as someone who has been married to the same woman for 22 years and has a life partner of 4 years and all 3 of us have had to deal with this mtype of thing, the way to do that is through discussion, understanding forgiveness, and positive actions.

 

In the event you can, you answered your own question. Find a swing club in your area that is friendly to those couples who want to observe and evaluate, and do just that for the first visit or two. Chat with folks about boundaries and those "acts" you have trepidation about. It is free mentoring and free group therapy

In the interest of full disclosure I am a club owner so I may be biased, but I can not stress enough that private hook ups as a means to enter the lifestyle, be it together or separate be a recipe for disaster. It is just too intimate, too close, and there is no feasible way to regroup and no graceful way to bail should things go south.

In a club situation there is room to take a sidebar with your partner and there is safety and security in numbers and worse case scenario, you can bail and come back another time and try again

[mauijanedoe 1,414]

The persistence of a particular desire can take over your life, to the point where judgment is suspended and the potential consequences of your actions are a dim spot in your brain. I also am a look at the deeds and let the words wash sort of person and I'm seeing desperation on his part and non-acceptance on yours. Unlike Lionheart72, I don't think you're the victim here, or at least not the only one. What if you had said, "Meh, the idea of another man touching me is squicky, but I see that you really, really want to do this. Would it work for you if I just watched?" Your outcome might have been very different and you wouldn't each have violated trust.

 

I can't get quote to work for me this morning, but in order, here are my answers to your question:

 

Forget swinging. It's a crap answer and has huge potential to cause more problems than you already have.

 

Yes, I have. At the start of our relationship, my lovely man told me, with great trepidation, that he wanted to try sex with another man and have me there. But he didn't think he could stand having anyone else touch me. There are any number of men on CL and elsewhere who want just that, so not a problem.

 

You don't actually enforce rules and boundaries. Enforcement is a parent to child thing.

 

If you don't want secrets, don't force desires into hiding. My answer might be different if he had a habit of secrecy, but I'm hearing that it's just this issue.

 

You rebuild trust by looking at the complete picture, acknowledging your role, including how your fears are in your way and in his, being compassionate in your anger and talking, talking, talking.

 

Swing clubs are not generally friendly to M/M contact. There are exceptions and there may be a club in your area for which that's not true, but you'd be better off getting a profile on SLS and finding potentials there. I don't think it's a crazy idea at all, btw, although it is a little unconventional. However, first you need to do a lot of work as a couple, including really talking about your fears of his leaving you to embrace gayness.

[Alura 2,774]

Is homosexuality something with which one is born or is a learned or chosen sexual preference? The jury is also still out on this one. I'll offer only this:

 

Many years ago in Istanbul, I met a lady from California who was recovering from a divorce. Her story was that she and her husband were swinging with another couple when the ladies got together. The men watched for awhile but eventually got together themselves. She told me, "From that time on he was impotent when he tried to make love to me."

 

You may be in a situation over which you (and he) have no control.

 

Swinging is not likely to help, whether y'all negotiate a private event or attend a swing club.

 

Alura

[M&S 266]

I really sympathize with your sitation. It seems there is an intractable sexual incompatibility in your relationship and, while i think that it is very accomodating of you to consider swinging as a waybof giving yournhusband what he feels he needs, i believe it is the wrong option in my view:

1. I believe swinging only works if each partner is enthused. It is not fair for you or someone you play with to subject them to a situation that will likely lead to misgivings and drama

2. As stated in other comments, the dishonesty on his part is a very big deal, but for me would not be a deal breaker. I can believe that a man with bisexual tendencies would have a hard time knowing how to handle this and would make some mistakes. I think it is totally fair to say to him "I understand your sexual desires, I understand you do not know how best to get them met right now, but if you ever go behind my back again, it's over". It seems you are willing to give this forgiveness but I would certainly make it conditional on future honesty.

3. The heart of the issue is, I believe, him having a sexual desire that you cannot, and should not feel compelled to, meet. I see no benefit of you being a part of his bisexuality - it doesn't turn you on and would likely lead to bad feelings. For you, I think it would be helpful to consider whether you would feel ok with him getting this sexual desire met elsewhere. Could you have so sort of agreement where he promised to be safe, non emotionally attached and, if yes, once every month or so, he could go out, hook up with a man and mess around. Again, this is certainly not swinging, but more a "hall pass" with strict rules.

[Partyperks847 123]

I misread the OP, I was under the impression he was seeking other guys strictly for MFM encounters, not for sex partners for himself...please disregard my previous advice, and just work on rebuilding trust and try to figure out a way to come to terms with his sexuality, or not

[slevin 1,374]

Others have given you good advice on the intricacies of your situation, comments on the dishonesty, cheating etc. I wanted to ask one question: do you have an issue or concern with him being bisexual or him being with other men? I get the impression from your post that this bothers you in itself. Is that part of your concern about the situation?

[3rdtimesacharm 15]

I misread the OP, I was under the impression he was seeking other guys strictly for MFM encounters, not for sex partners for himself...please disregard my previous advice, and just work on rebuilding trust and try to figure out a way to come to terms with his sexuality, or not

 

That is where I am at, trying to come to terms with the fact that my husband is bisexual - which is something I think I can live with, but deceit and infidelity are not things I choose to live with. And I am trying to imagine our life ahead - do I tag along on his MM encounters? What am I then, a den mother, referee, coach? Do I give him a Hall Pass and hope that he and his partner stay healthy and safe? I have seen situations where a couple stays married and they actually take in a boarder who is the husbands sex partner - it does eliminate the hooking up issue but I can'y imagine being ok with that scenario. Not to mention what to tell the family about the "tenant" - and I am pretty certain at this point that my husband is not even contemplating coming out to his friends and family. Which really eliminates a lot of my support system, and so makes all of the advice I get here even that more valuable -

[3rdtimesacharm 15]

Others have given you good advice on the intricacies of your situation, comments on the dishonesty, cheating etc. I wanted to ask one question: do you have an issue or concern with him being bisexual or him being with other men? I get the impression from your post that this bothers you in itself. Is that part of your concern about the situation?

 

A very close sibling of mine is gay and my closest friend is bisexual - so no I don't have a problem with his being bisexual, but I have a problem with infidelity. I think he has more of a problem with this than I do - he works in construction, loves to fish and shoot things and all his friends consider him a real man's man (which has a certain new irony to it now).

 

So given that, his only way to explore his sexuality either us separating so he can figure this out on his own, or me giving him a "hall pass" as another poster suggested, or us swinging together. Clearly, sweeping it under the rug has not worked - that was my fault. Given those alternatives I think I would prefer to stay and figure things out with him. I realized the other morning before I had confronted him with my knowledge of his secret emails and ads that our relationship is much more than the two of us in bed together - we are friends, have known each other for a long time, and we rely on each other for many things.

 

But to answer your question, if he had told me about this in no uncertain terms when we were first dating, I probably would have broken things off - I woudl have tole myself that regardless of my feelings for him the situation was just too complicated. So there you have it -

[3rdtimesacharm 15]

Wow... red flags waving all over the place. Ok, first things first... what your partner is doing isn't swinging. It's cheating. Period. Now, with that in mind, answering your questions in reverse...

 

At this point, with the direction things have taken, I almost think that I should go with him to a swing club or encourage him to find a M to pre-empt another episode of quasi-infidelity - is that a totally crazy idea?

 

There have been some length discussions about using swinging to prevent cheating. My view remains that it doesn't work. Swinging is about honestly, openness, trust and shared experiences. Cheating is about lies, concealment, secrecy and hidden experiences. Swinging builds relationships. Cheating damages them. They are antithetical. Swinging is not a cure or prevention for cheating..

 

I agree, and that seems to be the prevailing viewpoint - it makes sense that you have to have a rock solid relationship before opening your sex life to others, whether they are friends or strangers. I thought we were headed in that direction, but boy do I hate being pushed!

 

How do you rebuild trust after something like this?

 

With long hard work, lots of communication and total honesty. You aren't going to trust him for a while. He needs to work, hard to win back your trust.

 

 

My sweet man is hurt and vulnerable about all of this, and I do not want to make him feel any worse, but I kind of need some extra assurances that there will be no more secrets. Ideas?

 

Yes. Stop apologizing for him. He's lying to you. He's cheating on you, or planning to cheat on you. He is not the victim here. You are. He needs to work to win back your trust. If he is not willing do to the work... to be worthy of your trust and your love... any work you do is wasted effort.

 

He is working on winning back my love and trust - and doing a fine job of it, but his initial response still bothers me - he said "I haven't done anything wrong". Well, I am not the judge of right and wrong in our complicated world, but I know what I can accept and not accept - part of the grace that comes with age - I know me. And contacting potential sex partners on CL without disclosing that to your spouse just does not work for me.

 

Any other examples of rules and boundaries that you experienced swingers use? How do you enforce them?

 

For me, it all comes down to communication, honesty and trust. The rest is just details. You need to honestly say what you feel, what you want, what you are comfortable with, your partner needs to do the same and you need to both know that your are being completely honest. You can't "enforce" this... because you can't force trust or honesty. They are either there or they aren't.

 

Here is where I blew it - and I am not apologizing, just stating a fact. I was less than completely honest with him about how I felt about what he was telling me. Part of the issue was that these discussions were in the heat of passion - in retrospect I might have brought up the subject when we were fully clothed and more clearly expressed my position. But instead, I let it slide and now here we are.

 

Have any of the women out there been through this particular FMM situation, and can they offer additional information? I make this gender specific, because I know full well that in reverse, you guys cannot feel my pain

 

I would argue that either gender can understand the concept of "my partner is obsessing about having sex with someone else, is secretly trying to make their fantasy a reality and is cheating or planning to cheat on me." The gender specific nature of the partner and their obsession is irrelevant. I think lot of people can give you advice in that context. I, sadly (or happily), cannot. The time I was cheated on was a one-night-stand, my partner was honest about it and we worked very hard to resolve it and eventually she earned back my trust.

 

Thank you for sharing that with me as well, I heard somewhere that the majority of relationships will suffer a cheating spouse at some point - I have been there, too, and I have broken off relationships where my partner/spouse cheated, and I was very clear on that with him when we were getting to know each other better. He has been the victim of a cheatign spouse as well, it ended his marriage, all the more reasons for my incredulity when I found out what he was doing.

 

Have you ever gone into a swing scenario with this degree of trepidation I describe, and found that you actually enjoyed yourself?

 

I've never been in this situation... but I cannot begin to imagine it working. Before you can swing successfully, you need to have a strong, secure relationship based on honesty, trust and good communication. You don't have that.

 

I agree - I think we are further from that than we were before this happened.

 

My final thoughts are just a repeat of what I said before: Stop apologizing for him. Stop treating him as the victim. Stop trying to figure out what you can do to make him more trustworthy. He is the one doing things wrong. If he isn't willing to change course and actively seek your forgiveness... leave. Just walk away.

 

I am actually putting things in place to make leaving a realistic option - like going back to work full time. I really hated the way I reacted to this - and I realized that my total and utter dependence on him is actually harmful for our relationship. When we met I was a career woman with a serious job and my own possessions - now I work sporadically and not even my car is in my exclusive title. Big mistake, one I will not make again.

[3rdtimesacharm 15]

I really sympathize with your sitation. It seems there is an intractable sexual incompatibility in your relationship and, while i think that it is very accomodating of you to consider swinging as a waybof giving yournhusband what he feels he needs, i believe it is the wrong option in my view:

1. I believe swinging only works if each partner is enthused. It is not fair for you or someone you play with to subject them to a situation that will likely lead to misgivings and drama

2. As stated in other comments, the dishonesty on his part is a very big deal, but for me would not be a deal breaker. I can believe that a man with bisexual tendencies would have a hard time knowing how to handle this and would make some mistakes. I think it is totally fair to say to him "I understand your sexual desires, I understand you do not know how best to get them met right now, but if you ever go behind my back again, it's over". It seems you are willing to give this forgiveness but I would certainly make it conditional on future honesty.

3. The heart of the issue is, I believe, him having a sexual desire that you cannot, and should not feel compelled to, meet. I see no benefit of you being a part of his bisexuality - it doesn't turn you on and would likely lead to bad feelings. For you, I think it would be helpful to consider whether you would feel ok with him getting this sexual desire met elsewhere. Could you have so sort of agreement where he promised to be safe, non emotionally attached and, if yes, once every month or so, he could go out, hook up with a man and mess around. Again, this is certainly not swinging, but more a "hall pass" with strict rules.

 

Thank You for your post and your empathy. I agree that I should not participate in this lifestyle without believing it is the right thing for me - and at this point I do not. I think I understand it a lot better today than I ever have, but from my point of view in this relationship I was not even close to needing extra sex partners to enliven my sex life -

 

I agree that his dishonesty is a big deal, but not a deal breaker. I have been through infidelity before, and when people ask for my advice that's what I tell them. In retrospect, I have ended relationships because I was not able to forgive cheating when the person was sorry and asked for my forgiveness. I don't feel the need to give ultimatums, tho I am putting myself in a financial and emotional state of readiness in case this episode repeats itself.

 

Strangely, your idea of a Hall Pass with strict rules may be the most immediately workable solution to his strong desires and my current feelings. I still have to work on my apparently irrational belief that I should be enough for him -

[3rdtimesacharm 15]

The persistence of a particular desire can take over your life, to the point where judgment is suspended and the potential consequences of your actions are a dim spot in your brain. I also am a look at the deeds and let the words wash sort of person and I'm seeing desperation on his part and non-acceptance on yours. Unlike Lionheart72, I don't think you're the victim here, or at least not the only one. What if you had said, "Meh, the idea of another man touching me is squicky, but I see that you really, really want to do this. Would it work for you if I just watched?" Your outcome might have been very different and you wouldn't each have violated trust.

 

I can't get quote to work for me this morning, but in order, here are my answers to your question:

 

Forget swinging. It's a crap answer and has huge potential to cause more problems than you already have.

 

Yes, I have. At the start of our relationship, my lovely man told me, with great trepidation, that he wanted to try sex with another man and have me there. But he didn't think he could stand having anyone else touch me. There are any number of men on CL and elsewhere who want just that, so not a problem.

 

You don't actually enforce rules and boundaries. Enforcement is a parent to child thing.

 

If you don't want secrets, don't force desires into hiding. My answer might be different if he had a habit of secrecy, but I'm hearing that it's just this issue.

 

You rebuild trust by looking at the complete picture, acknowledging your role, including how your fears are in your way and in his, being compassionate in your anger and talking, talking, talking.

 

Swing clubs are not generally friendly to M/M contact. There are exceptions and there may be a club in your area for which that's not true, but you'd be better off getting a profile on SLS and finding potentials there. I don't think it's a crazy idea at all, btw, although it is a little unconventional. However, first you need to do a lot of work as a couple, including really talking about your fears of his leaving you to embrace gayness.

 

I know that I did force his desires into hiding, and I was not completely candid about my true feelings and fears. He has a hard time talking about this when we are not having sex.

 

Thanks for the tip about MM contact and clubs - there is so much to learn here. Part of what I have figured out is that we are in a subcategory for which there is not a lot of information or support. I was not sure who I could or should talk to - not my family or his, even my bi friend was out of the question because he has become our friend and I don't want him thinking he has to take sides at all.

 

So, when faced with your partners interest in other men, did you feel like I do now, like why am I not enough for you?

[mauijanedoe 1,414]

So, when faced with your partners interest in other men, did you feel like I do now, like why am I not enough for you?

 

Nope. M.'s interest in men actually intrigued me, but I also knew it had nothing to with me or any lack he found in me. It really was a desire, like mine for impact play, but his required something I couldn't do, at least not directly. For me, he learned to use a flogger. For him, we had to look outside our relationship. I don't want to make it sound as if I think people are toys, because I decidedly do not, but we're solid and the thought of an occasional male partner is no more threatening to me than a flogger is to him.

 

After M.'s first experience he said he enjoyed himself, particularly the taboo nature of having a cock in his mouth, and he'd happily do it again once in awhile, but the compelling fantasy was gone.

[Gordo 618]

I don't agree with most of the posters here. I don't see the CL ad as being that big a deal. People indulge fantasies all the time without their spouse knowing. They surf porn sites, look at pictures, watch videos even come to forums like this and post. Is that cheating? Is it taking a step to fulfil a fantasy or just the indulgence.

 

I can tell you from personal experience that most of the people on adult friend finder, S/L and C/L are posers. They have a fantasy and it gives them a thrill to come close to the line but never cross it. They'll email but cancel or meet but never step forward. They'll run ads and never respond or just keep them dangling. It's like playing chicken. How close can I come without breaking the rules.

 

Frankly I think you're making too much of it. It just doesn't go to the level of cheating or loss of trust. Certainly the fact that he clearly states he would want to involve you if he gets to do it doesn't scream cheating to me.

 

JMO

[angelkin 1,326]

Feelings are not right or wrong, they just are...and if you feel he is in the wrong, that's all that matters. Not what any of us think, not what he thinks - only you can decide to trust or not trust.

 

IMHO, he's sneaking around. Emailing potential playmates behind your back and after you said you did not want to go in this direction. Sexual desire can blur the lines of morality, but that's not an excuse.

 

There has to be some level of trust in your relationship or it begins to unravel. That being said, if you are open to his desires, then allowing him to explore them with you seems like the right path to me. It sounds like you were surprised and dismayed by his bi-interest. Give it some time to sink in - he owes you that much. Maybe in a week or two it won't seem like such a shock and the two of you will be able to talk about it openly and you will take a different view on things.

 

I wish you peace and happiness, no matter what direction you take to get there. You have a lot of things to think about and decisions to make.

[slevin 1,374]

I think what it boils down to is that you aren't ok with your spouse being bisexual. I dont mean you aren't ok with people being bisexual, or with him being bisexual on his own. You're not ok with whoever your spouse is being bisexual. I don't know why that is the case, but if it concerns you or bothers you that much then you need to talk with him about it. Maybe that means you guys shouldn't be together, or maybe you two can work it out. Either way, the best path is to talk about it.

[Gordo 618]

I still don't see the CL thing as cheating.

 

The problem that I see here is that BOTH parties have very strong fantasies about the future. Her fantasy is for a one man one woman relationship till death do us part and his is for a more open relationship with bisexual encounters that include her. Both are visions for the future and each is just as valid. His feelings about what he wants to do are just as valid as her feelings of not wanting to do it.

 

If ever there was a case of needing to sit down and find a compromise that works for both of you WITHOUT trying to take the high moral ground this is it. You need to drop the cheating, lack of trust and he needs to drop the you're ignoring my needs. Your future visions are in a serious conflict.

 

One of the things you might examine is your feelings toward previous swinging experiences. Our first one didn't go well either and if I/we abandoned it based on that we would have missed some absolutely awesome experiences we've had. That being said no one should be forced into swinging just because the spouse wants to.

 

But if you can't find an acceptable compromise between the two fantasies then perhaps it's time to consider moving on in life. You have a basic incompatibility that will eat at you both until your relationship falls apart.

[JustAskJulie 2,595]

The problem isn't his fantasies or the risk that he might decide he'd rather be with guys. The problems (the red flags, if you will) are that

1. He went behind your back to place these ads. Whether he tells you now that he would ONLY do this if you were there or not, doesn't matter. You've already stated you don't want to do it, so what's the point of posting the ad unless he intends to do it without you. Placing an ad is ACTING on a fantasy, not just indulging it (ie. watching a porn video of the fantasy).

2. He doesn't see a problem with this (with leads me to believe that there are other things he's not telling you the truth about).

3. It sounds like since you've been discussing it he's made it clear that he's doing it with or without you. That's the biggest problem. He's chosen this fantasy over your relationship.

 

As for where to go from here, I can't say. At a minimum you need to be completely honest with him about how you feel and why you feel it, and give him a chance to do the same for you.