What is the motive for this?

[Hoosier904 15]

So my GF and I thought we discussed everything through in detail for our first swinging adventure. I say thought because we didn't anticipate drinking too much. Nor did we discuss what to do if one of us doesn't follow the rules... we just assumed we would. Here's a little history: We've discussed fantasies and the potential of the LS off and on for since Feb. Needless to say, we got very worked up discussing our fantasies. It began with her and another girl (a childhood friend of ours and one of her best friends). She's never been promiscuous (She's had 4 partners in her life and we are 46) and was slightly bi-curious. She gave me a detailed account of her kissing, sucking and fingering, etc... and told me how turned on she was watching me bang our childhood friend (who is a very attractive female). Then she abruptly got jealous about the fantasy and I was essentially forbidden from all flirtatious contact with this person (no biggie, this other girl was not aware of the fantasy, etc). Nothing for several months and then we began discussing fantasies again. Very hot, erotic, stuff. I began to get excited about her MFM fantasies and began incorporating them into mine and getting very excited about that. Even expanded them (dbl pen, etc) and we started acting them out in bed together... very hot stuff. Her fantasies were always with her and other men, as many as 4. No other females. She never reciprocated and I was starting to feel like she was in it solely for her selfish reasons after we shut everything down when fantasizing about our mutual friend. Anyways, we decided to go for it and visited a nice club recently.

 

Leading up to the club visit, we had talked through everything (or so we thought)... made mutually agreeable rules, etc... But mentally, we were both prepared for the fact that we would likely see our partner with another.... Unfortunately, we both had too much to drink. She is very conservative by nature (always been a good girl) and not that long ago was appalled at the idea of wearing t-back panties... She wore a very sexy thigh high lace hose and mini skirt outfit. She was gorgeous! The alcohol gave her a swagger I'm not accustomed to, but nonetheless found it incredibly sexy. She was able to initiate conversation with strangers with ease (again out of character). We walked by an attractive couple and she initiated conversation and we were invited to sit down. We had some conversation, laughs, etc... The girl was very hot. The guy was not my GF's type. She did point out one guy she found attractive, but again his SO was not attractive to me (perhaps we are too picky).

 

Anyways, she ends up making out with the other attractive female in the bathroom (first time kissing a girl). Keep in mind, these were the two hottest women in the club and 3rd place wasn't even close - so there was a lot of attention on them. So we're dancing and grinding on the dance floor together and she tells me that she has set up a Girl on Girl show for me and the other hubby. The other couple has played before and it's always him watching her play with other men and then he plays with her. She wanted to reciprocate for her hubby, so my girl is telling me that she's going to fuck him so I can fuck the hottie. I'm like, "honey we agreed no one would take one for the team". Her response was "Honey, he's not hideous and this way you get to fuck her too". I wasn't really comfortable with this, but decided to go along. Anyways, as the night went on. I see my GF constantly seeking out contact and attention from the one guy she found attractive. Very, very flirtatious behavior. She was in short throwing herself at him and I've never seen this woman behave this way. (We've known each other since 2nd grade). I was troubled by this because A). she broke all of our rules, B). she only approached him when his SO was not nearby, C). She never once introduced me to him and in fact positioned herself so that I was never part of their conversation. D). the smug look on his face said he was going to fuck my girl and viewed me like a cuckold. E). I felt very disrespected by all of this. After several 4 or 5 incidents, I tried talking to her about this and she pulled away from me to chase after him again.... I lost my damned mind. I decided at that point it was time to go. We both drank too much (lots of newbie jitters), but for the first time my confidence in our relationship was rocked, my confidence as her lover questioned, in short I was jealous and all of my insecurities, suspicions, etc came to the forefront in epic proportions.

 

What's concerning me is I can't seem to just accept that this only happened because she had a little too much to drink. I fear and suspect there are some deeper seeded motives for this behavior. Am I making this more than I should? Am I reading too much into the selfish nature of her fantasies prior to going to the club? Should I re consider my relationship with this person? Should I re consider the LS with this person? What advice other than "GO SLOW" and "DONT DRINK TOO MUCH" can you offer? We both know we screwed that up and want to continue exploring the lifestyle. But when I want to visualize our previous fantasies, this comes flushing over me like a wave of rage & jealousy.

 

Sorry if this isn't the right place for this, but apparently this is the only place I am authorized to post.

 

Thanks for your advice and opinions....

[ViSexual 1,008]

Honestly, the things you wrote aren't so unlike what a lot of us go through the first time out. Of course she was a bit of a different person. And it was more than just the alcohol that was intoxicating to her. It was her newly felt sense of power that an attractive woman has at this kind of club. Remember that you did enjoy this new her until that new power she possessed made you begin to feel a little threatened.

 

She sounds like a really wonderful, and unselfish, lady that you do love, right? First of all, I think you've done the right thing by posting here. Second, I think you should admit your feelings to her and bring her here too. Tell her what you told us.

 

Good luck and keep us up on what's happening, OK?

[Hoosier904 15]

Hello Vi, and thank you for your reply. Yes, she is very wonderful... amazing actually; and I do love her very much. I was indeed in awe of this "new her" and felt a sense of pride in that I helped bring it out of her and that she was "mine". Obviously, I don't want to squash this, but can not endure another situation like the last one. So I realize I/We have a bit of a balancing act going forward and need to talk smaller steps and communicate more clearly/precisely.

 

One of the biggest things I'm still struggling with is the fact that we had certain rules that we both agreed to, but she didn't honor. It seemed like within moments of arriving, those rules went right out the window for her. She was practically throwing herself at this guy, which would be inappropriate anywhere. When I tried to talk to her about that and reel her back in (so to speak), it was met with denial and defiance. That defiance and unwillingness (or inability) to discuss her actions and motives (without her feeling bad or getting defensive again) only fuels my suspicion and insecurity. Neither of which I thought/knew existed prior to this incident.

 

I have sent her the link to this topic so she can stay abreast of other views and opinions. Thanks again for your insight.

[JM153 346]

The best thing I can suggest is the familiar prescription of talking with each other about how each of you feel. It is important for each of you to own your own feelings and to discuss them in a non judgmental way. If each of you are going to understand the other than you have to hear what the other is saying. For example you have laid out 5 complaints you had based on your perception of what was happening. Some of these are judgements on your part. You also stated that when you tried to talk you were met with "denial and defiance." Do you know if that is due to your judgmental statements or does she simply remember a different set of facts? You say she breached your boundaries. Does she agree and if not why do each of you see what happened differently? These are some example topics that need to be discussed until both of you are comfortable with each other and are willing to go back to the club.

[mauijanedoe 1,414]

Let me clarify something. Are you and Tillytot (who had a remarkably similar experience from the distaff side) a couple?

[LFM2 1,482]

Hi Hoosier, and Welcome to the Swingers Board!

 

Like ViSexual, I'm glad you've posted here! He's very wise!!

 

I see my GF constantly seeking out contact and attention from the one guy she found attractive. Very, very flirtatious behavior. She was in short throwing herself at him and I've never seen this woman behave this way. (We've known each other since 2nd grade). I was troubled by this because A). she broke all of our rules, B). she only approached him when his SO was not nearby, C). She never once introduced me to him and in fact positioned herself so that I was never part of their conversation. D). the smug look on his face said he was going to fuck my girl and viewed me like a cuckold. E). I felt very disrespected by all of this. After several 4 or 5 incidents, I tried talking to her about this and she pulled away from me to chase after him again.... I lost my damned mind. I decided at that point it was time to go. We both drank too much (lots of newbie jitters), but for the first time my confidence in our relationship was rocked, my confidence as her lover questioned, in short I was jealous and all of my insecurities, suspicions, etc came to the forefront in epic proportions.

 

What's concerning me is I can't seem to just accept that this only happened because she had a little too much to drink. I fear and suspect there are some deeper seeded motives for this behavior. Am I making this more than I should? Am I reading too much into the selfish nature of her fantasies prior to going to the club? Should I re consider my relationship with this person? Should I re consider the LS with this person? What advice other than "GO SLOW" and "DONT DRINK TOO MUCH" can you offer? We both know we screwed that up and want to continue exploring the lifestyle. But when I want to visualize our previous fantasies, this comes flushing over me like a wave of rage & jealousy.

 

Sorry if this isn't the right place for this, but apparently this is the only place I am authorized to post.

 

Thanks for your advice and opinions....

 

You have every right to be a confused, hurt or frustrated now. Things definitely didn't go as you'd planned with that first outing. One of the unwritten rules of swinging to only go as slow as the slowest person. We're human, we learn from our mistakes. I know we have.

 

You're correct about backing off the alcohol. Swinging sober is a great way to swing. It keeps our wits about us.

 

Every point you made raises a red flag. I'm not sure if the rules were broken because of alcohol, but it might be something more.

 

Rules were made to keep you both comfortable. It was obvious you were uncomfortable. This is one of the things you need to address.

 

My suggestion: Stop swinging now. No clubs, no nothing until you've talked everything out. I mean TALK at the kitchen table over coffee or a soda or water. No alcohol or wine. Just talk. Secondly, be honest. Don't yell or get frustrated. Just back up and start again if there is something either of you don't understand. Be respectful of each others opinions or ideas. I will suggest this as well: Julie has written a book called the Swingers Manual that contains a plethora of ideas and information for newbies and non-newbies alike. You can download it from Amazon for quicker access. I don't get a kickback for suggesting this either... it's just a great book with some great feedback. I would suggest that both of you read it.

 

It's a very small population that swings successfully. Very small (like less than 1%). The most important thing in this scenario is your relationship and if that means no swinging period, don't take that as a failure. It just didn't work out.

 

Please keep us updated on how things are going. Also, I hope you feel free to ask other questions regarding this. I'm sorry this happened.

[Hoosier904 15]

Let me clarify something. Are you and Tillytot (who had a remarkably similar experience from the distaff side) a couple?

 

No, but after reading through her story, I do see some similarities involving alcohol and jealousy.

 

Maui, IDK if you and Mrs. Sun realize how helpful you were to me last night in the chat. I wish she was with me to read your insights, but she crashed early last night.

 

Anyways, I just wanted to thank you both.

[Hoosier904 15]

You also stated that when you tried to talk you were met with "denial and defiance." Do you know if that is due to your judgmental statements or does she simply remember a different set of facts? You say she breached your boundaries. Does she agree and if not why do each of you see what happened differently?

 

I was holding her hands trying to talk to her about the fact that she was not honoring our agreed upon rules. Then he walks by and she says "hang on" and pulls away to chase him down and engaged in conversation with him. When I brought this up to her she said "No I didn't". I want to believe that it was simply too much alcohol. But as you said, I had made some judgments that this behavior is now supporting so I'm uncomfortable doing anything until I completely understand this. I fear it will resurface unless it's dealt with with absolute finality.

[sunbuckus 3,567]

No, but after reading through her story, I do see some similarities involving alcohol and jealousy.

 

Maui, IDK if you and Mrs. Sun realize how helpful you were to me last night in the chat. I wish she was with me to read your insights, but she crashed early last night.

 

Anyways, I just wanted to thank you both.

 

I think maui helped you a lot more last night but this is why I love this forum so much. Most posters are thoughtful and helpful. You don't feel persecuted for bringing your situations and asking for advice.

[Hoosier904 15]

 

Every point you made raises a red flag. I'm not sure if the rules were broken because of alcohol, but it might be something more.

 

This is what I'm trying to determine as well. It's part of the healing process I guess. Thanks for your insight and suggestions. I'll check out Julies book.

[Hoosier904 15]

I think maui helped you a lot more last night but this is why I love this forum so much. Most posters are thoughtful and helpful. You don't feel persecuted for bringing your situations and asking for advice.

 

Indeed, the wisdom on here is amazing.

[slevin 1,374]

One thing to note; you have been talking about exploring your collective sexuality. Encouraging her to open up, explore etc. Then when she was doing that, you tried to reel her back in. I'm not trying to say it was right of her to break your rules, or that it wasn't right to want her to step back. I think that is probably frustrating and confusing for her as well. I know it's tough, but I think you might make some more progress with communicating if you try to understand her mindset; not just her motivation for what she did, but rather her reaction now to the aftermath of your night out.

 

If she's always been reserved then I would say it's understandable that after a few drinks she'd really let loose when she was finally able to act in a way she'd never been able to. I know I stumble anytime I try to explore something new like that.

[mauijanedoe 1,414]

Maui, IDK if you and Mrs. Sun realize how helpful you were to me last night in the chat. I wish she was with me to read your insights, but she crashed early last night.

 

I'm glad we could help.

 

We both drank too much (lots of newbie jitters), but for the first time my confidence in our relationship was rocked, my confidence as her lover questioned, in short I was jealous and all of my insecurities, suspicions, etc came to the forefront in epic proportions.

 

What's concerning me is I can't seem to just accept that this only happened because she had a little too much to drink. I fear and suspect there are some deeper seeded motives for this behavior. Am I making this more than I should? Am I reading too much into the selfish nature of her fantasies prior to going to the club? Should I re consider my relationship with this person? Should I re consider the LS with this person? What advice other than "GO SLOW" and "DONT DRINK TOO MUCH" can you offer? We both know we screwed that up and want to continue exploring the lifestyle. But when I want to visualize our previous fantasies, this comes flushing over me like a wave of rage & jealousy.

 

You both had too much to drink and had the almost inevitable poor outcome. But...I don't think the poor outcome was only because of alcohol. I think it started long before, where she got jealous and quashed a particular fantasy and where you decided her fantasies were selfish (and, no, I didn't actually miss the part where you incorporated them into your play). In neither of those cases do I see the two of you acting as a team, being respectful of each other and working things out with love, generosity and neutral language.

 

Swinging exposes all of our cracks, the ones in our psyches and the ones in our relationships. Sometimes it merely leads to 30 seconds of a heated exchange before you both catch yourself up and remember you love each other. Sometimes, you go to a swing club and discover that you're clearly not ready to have sex with others. That's both of you. She wasn't the perpetrator and you the mostly innocent victim of her choices. For swinging to work, you have to be a team. That means that the night when one of you has the most amazing sex ever and the other kinda wishes the plan had been to stay home and clean the oven, you're still fine, because one of you having a great time is both of you having a great time.

 

You're going to need a whole lot of talking, with honesty and love and no blame, about what you're looking for and what scares you, what makes you excited and what scenarios make you uneasy. Don't rush. This is a long process. Don't talk about the other night at all until you can be non-confrontational, open to each other, leaving defensiveness and blame on the side.

[Hoosier904 15]

I think you might make some more progress with communicating if you try to understand her mindset; not just her motivation for what she did, but rather her reaction now to the aftermath of your night out.

 

I'm trying, unfortunately she doesn't have any explanation as to her mindset other than she drank too much and simply let her guard down....

[Hoosier904 15]

You're going to need a whole lot of talking, with honesty and love and no blame, about what you're looking for and what scares you, what makes you excited and what scenarios make you uneasy. Don't rush. This is a long process. Don't talk about the other night at all until you can be non-confrontational, open to each other, leaving defensiveness and blame on the side.

 

Excellent advice as always Maui... thanks! Interesting spin on the "teamwork" approach. I hadn't really thought of it like that until now.

[slevin 1,374]

I'm trying, unfortunately she doesn't have any explanation as to her mindset other than she drank too much and simply let her guard down....

 

Yeah, it's tough for people to step outside their emotional state and offer logical reasoning. I am not suggesting you get to the absolute logical explanation of it. I am suggesting you empathize with her emotional reaction during the night and now during the aftermath. It's not a right vs. wrong thing; it's empathizing with how she feels so you can come together and move forward.

[Hoosier904 15]

Thanks again to everyone for their insights. The depth and level of knowledge & wisdom on these forums is amazing.

 

We've been talking through this practically non-stop since Sunday morning and it has been quite the roller coaster of a ride. It has not been easy to discuss without one or both of us feeling attacked. Even though that was neither of our intentions. We've had to tread lightly, with lots of kisses along the way. In summary, we both made a lot of mistakes.

 

My GF is always complimenting me on my perceptive powers and that I know & understand her better than she does herself at times. Last night, she disclosed to me that she hadn't been completely honest when discussing our fantasies. The little "white lie" turns out to be fairly insignificant, and I'm not upset about it's existence - because she didn't completely understand it and remember it herself until yesterday. Rather, I'm upset that she didn't completely discuss it with me until we identified and fully understood it on the front end and that I allowed us to move forward on this adventure when there was a "hmm" or a "somethings off" type of moment. Because I felt it was there, I assumed the worse when her behavior was out of character, which makes it all the more upsetting to me. One of the best take-a-ways with this incident is that in the future she knows she can discuss those awkward &/or uncomfortable things on the front-end with me.

 

We've made a lot of progress together, and the wisdom on this forum has helped us both tremendously. We are now focused on enjoying the positives from this first "experience", nurturing each other, healing, and turning the negatives into valuable learning lessons. I'm confident that one day we will look back at this experience and laugh....

 

Thanks again everybody!

[JM153 346]

I'm trying, unfortunately she doesn't have any explanation as to her mindset other than she drank too much and simply let her guard down....

OK, accept that at face value. She doesn't know why and if required to give a reason too much alcohol. Pick up from here and have the kind of conversations Maui suggested: "You're going to need a whole lot of talking, with honesty and love and no blame, about what you're looking for and what scares you, what makes you excited and what scenarios make you uneasy. Don't rush. This is a long process. Don't talk about the other night at all until you can be non-confrontational, open to each other, leaving defensiveness and blame on the side."

 

Remember a time when you did something and could not answer why you did it? It is very frustrating to be asked over and over again why you did it. This is seen all the time when a child disobeys and the parent asks why. That is why I suggest accept her statement she does not know why. If you have the kind of conversations that Maui suggests she will likely gain clarification as opposed to frustration with herself and you.

[slevin 1,374]

And now you have me curious; what was the little white lie regarding her fantasies?

[Hoosier904 15]

And now you have me curious; what was the little white lie regarding her fantasies?

 

Keep in mind that she is 47yo, but I'm just her 4th partner and the only one that has seen her naked with the lights on (yes, really). Despite being 5'6", 130lbs, BL/BL, and was a fashion model in her teens and early twenties.... she's very insecure about her body due to scars/marks from having kids & being a cancer survivor, etc... She's gorgeous, so I never truly understood her insecurity. Honestly, it's nothing most guys would even notice. Hell I didn't even notice until she pointed them out. Anyways, she has a very conservative profession and has always been a very conservative person. I on the other hand was the hell raising bad-boy in our youth. She gets to explore her inner "bad-girl" with me and we both love that person too!

 

She really, really is bi-curious... but she only recently realized how bi-curious. i.e., when she kissed the girl at the club Saturday and liked it! She had previously only rated this fantasy very low on her fantasy preference scale. But she thought I really, really wanted it. So her little white lie was she didn't think she could act on this fantasy and that I would be disappointed. So she told me one of her fantasy's was to watch me being dominated by another male. Something she knew I would not be open to. This was her attempt to get me "less excited" about seeing her with another woman. The reality is I didn't care about her with another girl as much as she thought I did. I enjoyed fantasizing about her with me, other women, and other men equally. I just wanted her to incorporate other women into her fantasies for me, because we seemed determined to act these things out...lol

 

It all just boils down to mis-communication. She has realized that her super conservative lifestyle, up until she reunited with me, has suppressed so much of what she likes, etc.. that she can't simply get comfortable with some things for fear of judgement. Since she was allowed to come out of her shell so to speak at the club, and behave in ways she has never behaved before. She feels somewhat liberated now. I've assured her that our relationship is judgement free and we both are allowed to explore whatever suits us together. Whether we ever act on them or not, we will discuss them. I will not ignore my gut feelings on things, because that led me to making assumptions/judgments about her behavior and motives.... all of which were way off....

 

We talked through some scenarios about how to handle this in the future vs. telling a little white lie... I'm committed to no longer just ignoring any signs that I can't quite put my thumb on, etc... so our focus right now is just on communicating and loving each other. When we decide to go to the club again, and we are in agreement that we want to at some point, we will have discussed and explored potential problem situations thoroughly and have agreed on taking baby steps, drink limits (with water in-between), time-outs, etc.... But really, our focus right now is just communicating every single thing no matter how fragmented and loving, nurturing, and FUCKING each other......

[sunbuckus 3,567]

So her little white lie was she didn't think she could act on this fantasy and that I would be disappointed. So she told me one of her fantasy's was to watch me being dominated by another male. Something she knew I would not be open to. This was her attempt to get me "less excited" about seeing her with another woman.

 

This kind of communication is more of a mind-game instead of honest-to-goodness true communication. For both of your sakes, I hope this stops and that you both feel comfortable and trusting enough to be more truthful in your fantasies, hopes, desires, wishes, and fears. Besides talking more with each other (not just in bed before/after sex) and learning how to communicate better, please take swinging/swapping off the table for now. Take it slow and if you want to go to the club, just go with the intention of being with each other throughout the night. Converse with others but only as a couple, not separately. Maybe chat with successful swingers and ask for their personal advice on what they recommend newbies should do. Most of all, just focus on each other for the time being.

[Just Passing By 140]

I know you said you didn't want to hear it , but : * Go Slower, don't Drink (as much if at all) .

 

Beyond that , Ikm picking up that you are way too literal as regards "fantasies" . I am picking up that you are taking them as a blueprint for real life , and are microanalyzing and overreacting to them. Fantasies are supposed to be wideranging , imaginative , and off the wall, and only an indirect starting point for thinking about real life activities.getting upset at someone's fantasies is both over the top, and very counterproductive.

 

Go back to the next to first step , and communicate a lot.

 

Off the top of my head you guys should end up more flexable in expectations , mutually clearer on mutual rules , and less picky on your part , but you'll work all that out yourselves before (if) your next venture.