Swinging for a year... much to learn about boundaries

[sbberg 15]

Hello everyone - a couple we recently met told us about this site. My wife and I have been married 26 years of a mostly boring sex life due to kids always 3 feet away. The kids are gone now and suddenly it has all changed. We have been swinging for about 7 months. We thought we would dip our toes in the swinging pool, but ended up falling in head first. My wife found out that she is incredibly bi-sexual, as well as enjoying the men much more than I had expected. Although I enjoy the people, the flirting, and watching my wife go crazy, I personally don't really feel much like penetrating other women, just my wife. I love taking care of the other ladies orally and in every other imagineable manner, just don't seem to get much of a bang out of them paying me back. Within the first 2 months of swinging, my wife crossed a few serious boundaries, which really caused us to come close to splitting and so we stopped all activity for about 3 months. Now we are slowly getting back into it, but I think we should just be soft swap, and she says she agrees.

 

My questions are these - Is this a common story of newbies? Is it even possible to go back to soft after you have been full swap? For most soft swap couples, besides intercourse of course, how far are the spouses generally allowed to go with each other?

 

Thanks for any advice you can give....

[JustAskJulie 2,595]

First off

 

Second, yes, unfortunately, your story is fairly common for newbies. I think it is possible to go back to whatever rules you both agree to, even if you've stepped beyond. The key is communication and both of you being on board with whatever boundaries you set. If, however, one of you wants to stay with full swap and the other wants to go backwards, it may not be possible. It sounds like you prefer soft-swinging (at least for yourself) and she prefers full-swap (am I wrong?). Is it a possibility that you would allow for her to go there while you have different boundaries? I have friends who have preferred to stick to this type of method. One does most of the playing and the other will join in to a limit, but not fully. It works for them, but we are each different.

 

While my swinging start was full-swap. In my current relationship we have been mostly soft-swap. When it comes to soft-swap for us, that is literally everything short of actual sex.

[sbberg 15]

Thanks for replying! I would say the biggest issue is that although I am the biggest horndog around when it comes to looking, I actually need to have a connection. Not so much because I have to feel connected to the lady, but I guess that unless I feel like the lady is truly into me (which I don't know for sure unless we have actually gotten to know each other pretty well) I feel like they are just playing with me because they want to get it on with my wife - and sex with me is a requirement. It is an unfortunate fact that so far everybody thinks that we are both a good looking couple, but they REALLY like my wife. I am sure the issues are all my own creation - but haven't been the same since she crossed the line almost immediately upon our getting started. We are talking to a soft swap couple right now, but i can already see after just one dinner that my wife is really the target. I really don't know how to feel...

[cplnuswing 4,713]

Welcome to the Swingers Board!

 

I think the fact that you both were able to recognize a problem and put things on hold until you worked through it and then made a conscious decision to start back slow is a big plus. The first few steps may have been a little bumpier than you would have expected or wished, but based on how you handled them, I wouldn't be unduly concerned with that. Swinging is a strange thing, especially at the beginning. No matter how well you think you know how things are going to go, unexpected situations, feelings, etc are going to happen. The key is how you deal with them, and you get an A+ in that department.

 

We are a full swap couple, but wouldn't be adverse to playing with a couple where one was only interested in full and the only only in soft. While it wouldn't be a deal killer in and of itself, it would come with some reservations. The first issue is the only way it would be a problem is if we sense the soft-only person is only coming along for the ride for the sake of the other and not really interested to start with. That would be a deal killer, and as Julie pointed out, while the soft-full combo isn't unheard of, it is not the most common either. So, you may have to do a little extra work to get people to understand where you are coming from on that.

 

The second issue is we've talked about it and agreed we could see doing it ourselves in a few hypothetical situations, but we haven't actually encountered them yet. The way it has always ended up working out, we usually end up wanting the same thing, soft or full. For us anyway, the what will probably always keep us from doing the full/soft ourselves is if she is turned on, she wants intercourse. Doing some soft with other guy is perfectly ok, but usually sooner rather than later, she wants to get down to it, and if her partner is soft only, and I am with the other female either soft or full, then that isn't going to work without someone or the other not getting what they want. Sort of a doomed to fail scenario from the start, so we have just avoided it unless we ran up on the perfect scenario for it.

 

I think it is possible to go back to soft, but you have to totally be in agreement or there may be some resentment issues. For us, soft swap means up to and everything short of actual penetration and intercourse, including orgasm. Again though, it means different things to different people, so you always need to check on that before getting started.

 

Regarding your followup post, if one of us feels that someone is only feigning interest in one to get to the other, then done deal, we are not interested. We both want each other to enjoy the experience equally, and it isn't going to happen like that, so we just would walk away from the situation. Nothing wrong with your feelings about that, and your wife should respect that, as you should for her if the roles are reversed.

[sbberg 15]

Thanks so much for the advice! My wife says she is fine with soft, but I know that she really likes the full. She would be holding back just to please me, which would undoubtedly be frustrating for her, and frustrating for me too. Thanks again for the reply.... Hope this works!!

[mauijanedoe 1,414]

I don't really have any insight into soft swapping, because we won't unless it's limited to same room play where everyone stays with their own partner throughout. However, there's nothing unusual in trying something, whatever that something is, and deciding it's not for you and moving on to something else.

 

However, I think there is something bigger going on here than a concern that it will be difficult to go strictly soft swap.

 

...I guess that unless I feel like the lady is truly into me (which I don't know for sure unless we have actually gotten to know each other pretty well) I feel like they are just playing with me because they want to get it on with my wife - and sex with me is a requirement. It is an unfortunate fact that so far everybody thinks that we are both a good looking couple, but they REALLY like my wife. I am sure the issues are all my own creation - but haven't been the same since she crossed the line almost immediately upon our getting started. We are talking to a soft swap couple right now, but i can already see after just one dinner that my wife is really the target. I really don't know how to feel...

 

There are a couple of assumptions in the above about your own lack of desirability, which I'd find worrisome anyway, but when you tangle that up with not having been the same since, etc., I really wonder why on earth you're resuming swinging at any level.

 

Thanks so much for the advice! My wife says she is fine with soft, but I know that she really likes the full. She would be holding back just to please me, which would undoubtedly be frustrating for her, and frustrating for me too.

 

More assumptions. Plus, you either trust your wife and what she has to say or you do not. If you do not, that is yet another indication that swinging isn't a good idea at this time.

 

Swinging is a high risk sport, exposing all our cracks. When you come across big ones, like the sort that say you're less desirable than your partner or you can't trust what your partner has to say (or does), it's time to take a big ole break and do some work within yourself and with your partner. Do whatever it takes - therapy, lots of intimate and revealing conversations with your wife, going to the gym regularly, taking up a hobby that fulfills something in you - to become whole in yourself and in your relationship, and do it without the stress of outside sex.

[sbberg 15]

Well, I know your heart is in the right place, but you are reading too much into my words. We are fine, and we are finding our way. Thanks.

[latin2012 22]

Hello. First there is not a one manual fits all. It sounds like you both want to swing. The problem you are having is what kind. If you don't mind her playing full and you watching great as long as you both agree. You all have tested the waters, get together and see what you both want out of it. When wife and I started, kissing was my biggest thing. I told her I did not want her passionately kissing the other guy. When we did hook up with another couple it turned into a free for all. I was having too much fun to even noticed them having their fun. So figure out what you all want out of and expect changes in what you want.

[DigginIt 1,132]

Hey sbberg, the one thing that stood out in your post to me was this:

 

I guess that unless I feel like the lady is truly into me (which I don't know for sure unless we have actually gotten to know each other pretty well) I feel like they are just playing with me because they want to get it on with my wife - and sex with me is a requirement.

 

We have been in the lifestyle about four years now and what I have learned is that the women make the decisions to play (some exceptions) and none of them will take one for the team. That's like rule #1 so if they are playing with you, at some point, they made a conscious decision that they were into you so after that point, you need to let go of those self doubts. Sincere interest shows and maybe, they are not feeling the interest coming from you and so at that point, it becomes about your wife. You said that you need to know the lady is truly into you, well trust me, the women need to know you are truly into them also.

 

If you read our profile, somewhere around the description of me, you will see something like "ladies, if you want him to be assertive, he has to know you are into him" or something like that. I'm a guy, I don't get subtle hints and like you, I really want to feel that the woman is into me. It's what makes the play great for me which is why we almost always become very close friends with who we play with because that connection sometimes has to develop. It's just not always there immediately.

 

I would say, let a good friendship develop and adjust your rules based on your comfort level. Let your wife know exactly what you are feeling here (I'm sure you have) and together, when the right situation come up, you will know it.

 

Good luck.

[JustAskJulie 2,595]

Honestly, it sounds to me like you have some self-esteem issues that you need to work through. I've seen this with my own husband. He tends to be the same way (as far as needing to really know that a woman is really INTO him, and that he's not just a doorway to me). I'm with him on that, as I want to know the same. I want him to really feel like the other woman wants him. The problem comes in that MOST women are used to the guy being the aggressor, and being coy, letting the guy do the chasing, etc. This works against you (and him), so at some point you (and he) have to learn how to feel comfortable in your own shoes. He has found that he has a lot more fun, in general, by just enjoying himself, approaching women he finds attractive and giving them the chance to show him they are interested. He has learned how to be the aggressor, which in turn allows the woman to feel comfortable (that he is into her) and return the favor.

 

That said, we are also in the point where I'm the one who would prefer to do full-swap and he's the one who is more comfortable with soft (until/unless he is 100% comfortable with the couple). But, we handle it. I love him enough to understand his limits and work within them without trying to force him out of them. Hopefully, your wife feels the same. That said, you still both need to be very careful. You've learned a lot already having come through some rough times. It's important to keep communicating with each other and being completely honest.

[The Fuse 1,012]

Hello sbberg,

 

Thanks for telling us your story and wanting to connect with the community here. There is a lot of wisdom and experience on this board.

 

I used to be married, and we were swingers for about 4-5 years. We had a great time for most of that time. But toward the end my ex had a big chip on his shoulder about "fairness", and a problem with the reality that often the women are desired by more folks than the men in this lifestyle. I always wished he could just have all the fun we were having and not worry so much about whether he got as much play or as many offers as I did. To some extent men just have to accept that women are more often the objects of desire. It's not fair, but there is plenty of fun to be had by everyone. I tell you this so that you can know my perspective when I ask you a couple of questions.

 

When you think about swinging together with other couples, do you feel *desire* to be with other women? Or do you feel more lukewarm about it? You want to get only so close, but don't have a desire to have full-on sex? Or, is what's uppermost in your mind the anxiety due to wondering whether that lady likes you or just views you as a way to get to your wife? In other words, is your basic feeling "YES, LET'S GO!", or "Eh", or "I'm feeling uncomfortable and possibly left behind?"

 

If your wife is burning up and you're on simmer only, there could be an issue when she starts to get excited again, like what happened before. Do you, and more importantly does she, have a plan for how to hold back without becoming frustrated? Speaking from experience, I started to become really resentful when my ex continually denied me experiences I wanted because he felt he had to have as "much play" as I did. I really didn't see why he couldn't just be happy for me, since I only wanted to go let loose and then go resume our lives together, which I told him repeatedly I wanted to go on till we were old and gray, and beyond. But he kept holding me back out of a need for "fairness" until I felt like he was just being possessive and jealous of me because of an artifact of sexuality: I had the pussy. If you both fear this type of tension between the two of you, I advise you to find other ways to have fun together and not swing.

 

How much do you enjoy watching your wife with other women and with other men? If you had little to no desire to play yourself, would you still get a charge out of watching her, without feeling resentful of her popularity? Some men get a real charge out of watching their wives or girlfriends with other men, and care little whether they play at all. Some don't like watching. Some enjoy her enjoyment, and want to watch a little, but watching by itself is not so erotic for them that it's something they'd be that interested in. I think it's important that you both know which category you're in.

 

Are you willing to pursue a woman you desire, and find out from her whether that desire is returned? It sounds like it's important to you to know that you're desired. It's another unfortunate reality that men are still expected to be the pursuers, at least mostly. It would serve you well to make a prospective partner feel like she lights you on fire. You can ask that woman, pretty much straight out, whether she finds you attractive and wants to be with you. When she answers, it's not even so much her words that matter, as the feeling you get from her.

 

Are you very taken aback that your wife seems to enjoy herself so much? Why? You mentioned that she enjoyed the men more than you thought she would. Does that make you doubt her feelings about you?

 

Do you trust that she still wants to go home with you, and grow old with you, and that the rest of it is just fun and sexy friendship?

 

I wish you the best of everything in your marriage. Swinging is great for the friendships, fun times and for the sex, but your marriage is much more precious. I still retain many friends from the lifestyle, even though I'm no longer swinging at all. I have one boyfriend who has some experience in the lifestyle as well, and would love to see me with others. But for now I just have no desire to branch out. I think it's important to listen to your inner voice and know what moves you and what doesn't, and how powerful those feelings are likely to be, especially for your wife.

 

Thanks again for being here. I hope to hear more from you.

[Just Passing By 140]

Firstly welcome to the Board. Hats off for realizing things were up , and taking a break and communicating.

 

Yes , the setting of limits and parameters is somthing that frequently needs working on. And that's not an inherently troubling thing. This is a dynamic experience , and the viewpoint during and after morph from what was visualized before.

 

Like most of the above , what I'm seeing as more important is the other part.

 

I'm seeing a difference of opinion on the style and tone of your encounters. She seems to favor a more open and freewheeling environment. And whichever terminology you use , you are prefering know people better , and have a more even connection between everyone. Both viewpoints are well within *normal* for swinging / swing-ish activities, and neither is right or wrong.

 

One of the generally held concepts is that it is a good thing for your partner to enjoy themselves , and that you receive satisfaction from them have a good time . This can range on a continum from a sexual turn on on the spot ,to a more generalized wish for them to be pleased. The fact that she is higbly desireable is also a slightly more indirect boost to you to, because she really is all that , and you're the one she's going home with forever and ever.

 

All that said , you two are experiencing presently having different viewpoints on the tone and parameters of your activities. There have been sugguestions on how you could adapt , become more outgoing and assertive, etc. Which is fine if that's what You Want to do.

 

Or you could equally decide that how you feel is how you , thank you very much, and go from there. If you prefer getting to know people better , and feeling a more equal connection ( again Don't obsess over scorekeeping ), the be communicating about how to move in that direction in a mutually agreable manner.

 

I know , in recent years there has been a general trend to meeting people at clubs and parties for various reasons, but that's not the only way to skin a cat. It may well be that your personality is better suited to the meeting of people directly at least some of the time. It can take more time and effort, but it's more about finding enjoyable partners than raw numbers.

[sbberg 15]

Thanks for the comments and views based on your experiences everyone! I think that the "bar stool psychologist" role taken by a few responders are a bit overdone - I am a pretty open guy so the things I shared are more me "thinking out loud" than they are deep feelings or issues. Believe me, we are fine and we need no counseling or therapy (that's what this is). I will admit, that I am experiencing a few performance anxiety issues, which I believe are really trust issues. Not trust in my wife, they are trust issues I have with anybody that I don't know that well (more bar psychology - I am very sure it has to do with how I grew up). So far, we are adapting to the soft swap thing very well, and I fully expect that this will eventually lead back to full swap, but only with those we started out soft swap with. My wife is happy either way, as long as she gets her girl/girl time in and can go crazy at that! I know that my views on this don't make me the life of the party, and I probably have no business going to Hedonism or anything, but we are fine with it. Thanks again everyone.

[hkdilbert 182]

sbberg said:

... and I probably have no business going to Hedonism or anything...

 

Hedonism II is actually not a swingers resort, but is lifestyle friendly. Many of the guests there are not swingers but enjoy the sexually charged environment and the nudist lifestyle. IMHO Hedonism is a good place to go to let your hair down and have a good time, regardless of where your boundaries are. For more details about Hedo and what it is and is not check out the Adult Travel Forum site.

[DigginIt 1,132]

I think that the "bar stool psychologist" role taken by a few responders are a bit overdone - I am a pretty open guy so the things I shared are more me "thinking out loud" than they are deep feelings or issues.

 

Granted you asked three specific questions but try to understand that most of us on here are very empathetic. Some of the things you have mentioned, leading up to your questions, are also feelings/emotions many of us have all experienced ourselves so our "bar stool psychology" is rooted in sincerity.

[IEcouple 222]

Here's the thing: it's perfectly OK to want full-swap but settle for soft. And it's possible to be fine with this limitation. But it has to be genuine. Each of you have to accept the limits of your partner. Your relationship is the most important thing here.

 

It's OK to want more than you're getting. But if she understands that the way to make you more comfortable is to stay within your limits, then she should be happy to do that. In the long run, that's the best way for her to get a full swap some day in the future.

 

And don't worry too much about the lack of chemistry you've had so far. Maybe you just haven't met the right couple yet. Or you just haven't gotten comfortable enough. Both of you should take your time, communicate with each other, and odds are that your desires will converge in some way that makes you both happy.

[sbberg 15]

Thanks so much.... good advice!