How do you deal with a 20 year old mistake

[oldaffair 15]

I'm not sure if this is the right forum it's my first post.

 

So here is my story. I honestly don't know which direction to move.

 

First of all we have been swingers for about 4 years and had multiple experiences that for the most part have been fun and successful.

 

We were talking about our Christmas party and having a laugh over some guy chasing her all night . I asked her if anyone had ever hit on her seriously asking her to meet them somewhere or whatever. To my amazement she told me about a course she went on somewhere around 20+ years ago one of the company managers had asked her to spend the night with him.

 

I was a little shocked as I know the guy. More about that later. When I asked why she never told me she said she knew I would go after him and she's right I would have. She told me she just said no she was married and put an end to it. She was kind of vague about the details but I let it go at the time as it was so long ago and obviously dealt with.

 

But like so many little things it's been gnawing at me.

 

You see I was a senior manager for that company. I've been to those courses and I know the format that they run under.

 

Those courses have 15-20 people at them and they share hotel rooms. There would have had to be at least one other woman there if not several. My wife loves meeting new people and she would have loved the opportunity to meet and socialize with them, dinner drinks etc. She's the kind of person that makes instant friends. There is no way she would have just hung out with this guy as he was from her office. There would have been women and other guys in the group.

 

Most of the time after dinner they hang at the bar in groups and talk and network. I can't imagine this guy just walking up to her and asking a question like this. He certainly wouldn't have done it in front of the group. They had to be alone. There had to be liquor involved to get him to a point of doing this and I believe there had to have been some encouraging signs of interest because the simple fact is if I had found out about it I could have ended his career in a couple of calls and he would know that. I can't imagine someone committing career suicide without some encouragement that it would be alright.

 

The bottom line is I don't think she told me the real truth. I'm now wondering and having trust issues.

 

On the other hand it was over 20 years ago. She's with me, we've raised kids been married for over 25 years.

 

We swing and screw other people all the time. If she were to show up with him now to take him to bed I wouldn't sweat it as we no longer work for this company and haven't for the last 16 years.

 

My dilemma is that even though this is 20+ years old to her for me it is fresh and just two months ago. Part of me wishes she never told me. Part of me wants to forget about it and part of me wants to sit her down and demand she come clean. Part of me wants to just say well it's no different than the swinging we do now so what's the big deal but it would not have been acceptable back then.

 

I'm torn. Did she really do something? Did she refuse vehemently? Did she refuse politely? Did she refuse after thinking about it or hesitating? How did she really end up in this situation that came so close? Did she cross any lines?

 

Do I drop it and forget I ever heard it or sit her down and demand the truth. I can't make up my mind.

 

Any thoughts here?

[mauijanedoe 1,414]

I think it might be a good idea to work through the possibly irrational and obsessive parts on your own. Once you've skimmed off the icky bits of reaction, tell your wife that you have reacted poorly to her disclosure and talk it through. It will be a delicate thing, to be handled as lovingly and respectfully as anything you've ever discussed, because she answered your question freely, trusting in your acceptance of her answer, and you don't want to betray that trust with suspicion and jealousy.

 

Does it make sense if I say that absent conclusive evidence of an affair, your wife is the wronged party here?

[lotsoffun201 175]

20+ years ago but you are solid and stable now? I would let that one go as its not worth it. She has proven herself for 25 years. I don't think it's worth dwelling on, and in fact should be forgotten. But then again, this is me talking and not you. I pray you do what YOU feel is right, but think it through thoroughly first either way.

[LFM2 1,482]

Welcome to the Swingers Board!

 

I have to agree with mauijanedoe here. This has to be handled with kid gloves. She's going to feel like you're calling her out and making her out to be a liar. Do you really think she would have brought it up if she had slept with him at that course? If not, let it go.

[ViSexual 1,008]

You know what, my wife told me recently about a fellow teacher who hit on her years ago. She said that she simply told him that she was 'way too married' to comply. They remained friends. I, actually, don't blame him because she was a very sexy young woman then. And, you know, I can honestly say that it wouldn't have bothered me if she'd admitted to playing with him a little. Now, at that time, he was living with another teacher that I liked so if she'd admitted to doing more than a little playing, and not told me and given me the opportunity to be with the girlfriend, then that might bother me a little. But, honestly, not that much because I know it would have just been purely for pleasure for her. If she'd asked if she could be with him, even if his girlfriend wasn't part of the deal for me, I'd have say sure!

 

And there was a very good friend of mine that we swapped with him and his wife once. Well, it was soft-swapping only. Years later she told me that he'd called her a few days after and wanted to get together alone with her. She said she told him no. She didn't tell me because it wasn't necessary to. Again, I don't blame him for trying. I would never have called his wife, even though I'd love to have completed with her too, but that's just me.

 

If my wife isn't telling the whole truth and did complete with both of these guys, well, so-be-it! I just hope she enjoyed it. I love her and love her having pleasure and understand when sometimes it's just difficult to admit some things.

[Alura 2,774]

It's been my experience in life that whenever I've speculated on something, I've been wrong most of the time.

 

Alura

[Guest screaminggood]

Go to a therapist. You need someone who is objective to help you think about the entire thing.

[19gadget80 15]

I'm not claiming to be a relationship expert by any means, but it sounds to me like that little situation was water WAY under the bridge. It was 20 years ago and like you've said, you've had a long successful marriage. You asked the question and she gave you an honest answer. Seems to me like its in the past and that's where it is staying. I wouldn't worry about it personally.

[oldaffair 15]

Welcome to the Swingers Board!

 

I have to agree with mauijanedoe here. This has to be handled with kid gloves. She's going to feel like you're calling her out and making her out to be a liar. Do you really think she would have brought it up if she had slept with him at that course? If not, let it go.

 

I agree which is why I'm asking here. I don't want to go postal on this with her. In my heart I don't think she slept with him I believe her when she says she said no.

 

But I know it takes two to tango and I don't believe for a second that they got to the point of him asking unless something was going on before.

 

Today that would be hot and a turn on to me but back then I didn't know about swinging and I can tell you it would have had very serious repercussions in our marriage and even could have ended it.

 

I can't understand why I have such strong negative feelings about an incident 20 years ago that I would welcome today.

 

Honestly I wish someone had treated me like a mushroom and kept me in the dark!

[oldaffair 15]

I'm not claiming to be a relationship expert by any means, but it sounds to me like that little situation was water WAY under the bridge. It was 20 years ago and like you've said, you've had a long successful marriage. You asked the question and she gave you an honest answer. Seems to me like its in the past and that's where it is staying. I wouldn't worry about it personally.

 

It was 20 years ago to her. It's two months ago to me. I wish I had never asked that question. First rule of sales never ask a question you don't know the answer to.

[mauijanedoe 1,414]

But I know it takes two to tango and I don't believe for a second that they got to the point of him asking unless something was going on before.

 

I apologize for my harshness, but that is just nonsense. I have experienced something like this dozens of times, with no more encouragement from me than a smile and a friendly word.

 

You appear to be obsessing and that isn't particularly healthy. A therapist is a really good suggestion, but you might want to try a supplement called GABA as well.

[Alura 2,774]

Did she really do something. Did she refuse vehemently. Did she refuse politely. Did she refuse after

thinking about it or hesitating. How did she really end up in this situation that came so close.... The last question was edited out as a really bad one.

 

Do y'all talk while you fuck? My late wife and I did. That might be the time to ask these questions... Let her know that you're really pleased that she shared this.

 

I'm just a hick Okie and I don't know much about therapy, but I see this as an opportunity to improve your communication. Forget about the morality of what happened twenty years ago. It won't change. Talking about it now can be a real sex enhancer. Ask her questions that can't be answered with "yes" or "no" about everything in life. "What are your thoughts on healthcare?" ... You'll find a lot of interesting ideas in there. Maybe, eventually, even swinging.

 

Let us know how it goes... and ask her to join the conversation, please.

 

Alura

[Alura 2,774]

One other thought: You should be very pleased your wife was wise enough twenty years ago to decide not to share this with you. I see no good for anybody that could have come from the results.

 

Alura

[Baron-n-kitty 104]

Man....I would let it slide. 20 years ago. I cant remember what I had for lunch a week ago much less details of a specific night two decades ago. It seems like yall have a good relationship and I wouldent bring the stress into it this late in the game.

 

If it was me, I would take the weekend off. Go out of town by myself, play some golf, hammer a load of hotwings at Hooters, call it a day and let it go. Thats just me tho.

[Swing*8701 887]

Susan here--Well, she summed it up that he made an indecent proposal and she rejected it. Was there perhaps more to it ? Perhaps a smidge, but nothing that isn't eroded easily from 20 years of memory. Nothing that she could not have legitimately not recalled in the moment she told you. You've already decided she hasn't told you the truth and any hint of additional information will have you digging harder and deeper and not in the fun way. If you continue to look for trouble, you will find it and it will end badly and unnecessarily. How about this, sometimes when I cannot decide how much to pursue things, I say the situation out loud and see how sensible my irrational behavior is. So, say this out loud," I have a wife that let's me have sex with any woman I want. I think she may not have been completely honest, though she probably was, about something 20 years ago. I think I should fuck up the great deal I have today for a truth that doubtfully exists from 20 years ago." You know how many men would kill to have your problem ? One more thing, as for the 'two to tango' oh, I've been approached by more men that I never gave a hint to than their are minutes in an evening. When it comes to sexual opportunities, men can see more mirages than a dying man in a desert.

 

Once an unhealthy fixation starts, it's difficult to stop.

[cplnuswing 4,713]

I'm curious, where is the "mistake" referred to in the title? She got hit on and declined. I'm not seeing the mistake there. What the hell difference does it make if she declined politely, vehemently, or whatever, and who would reasonably expect someone to remember the details of something that long ago? Before you go any further with this, reverse the situation and think how you would feel if it were her demanding answers of you of some chance encounter two decades ago.

 

Your assumptions are outnumbering the known facts here, always dangerous ground to be standing on while making a decision. 20+ years ago, move on.

[DaggersNRoses 271]

Thoughts?

 

My first one is that you are calling this a mistake. Where is the mistake in this? Her not telling you that she turned down a come on?

 

I don't know either of you but I see nothing in your posts that suggest you have been living with a woman who is given to carrying on behind your back and lieing to you. You made many assumptions about what must have brought this on. I won't pretend to know a thing about your company and how it handles their events. I will say, I can't imagine any such gathering where people would be so carefully monitored that there could be no contact or opportunity to interact.

 

I wonder if the more you think on this, you create an atmosphere that feeds into your worries. There could not have been contact, there must have been drinking, they must have said things before to lead up to this. You are really creating all this and building on it to get yourself worked up.

 

We can do scenarios, here is one. Your wife steps out of her room after a shower, smelling fresh, rejuvenated and smiling. The guy passing, yeah she knows him but boy does he reek from the bar, how does a man drink that much, oh no, he is really looking at her like that. Yes, he is and he says, "Hey baby, wanna wrestle?" Ooh he is drunk and will regret that tomorrow, ummm no; so she slides back into the room and slams the door. Oh shit, how does she explain this one to her husband, he could end this guy's career for being stupid, better to just ignore this as drunken silliness.

 

Let go of the scene creating. If you want to know, ask your wife and don't add things to it.

 

 

The Rose

[Guest Ready2dewit]

I think oldaffair has a point..it was twenty years ago, but only two months ago to him. I think if you just give it a little more time for the shock and speculation to run it's course, it'll be less of a big deal. Attractive women get hit on all the time, with varying degrees of supposed invitation.

[DigginIt 1,132]

It's been my experience in life that whenever I've speculated on something, I've been wrong most of the time.

 

Alura

 

Ding, Ding, Ding! This has my vote.

 

Let it go, you are way over thinking it and not trusting/believing in your wife. If she hasn't ever given you a reason to think otherwise, let it go...

[IEcouple 222]

You've gotta drop this. The only mistake here is hers: assuming you could handle the news that she was propositioned decades ago and declined. She could have answered no to your question and you would never have known. The fact that she told you shows how insignificant she thought it was.

 

You're jumping to wild conclusions thinking that he would only have asked if more had been going on. That's ridiculous. There are a thousand ways that it could have happened. He could have been drunk. She might have accidentally led him on. He could have taken a shot in the dark knowing he could have left it off she declined. This kind of thing happens all the time. She's probably been propositioned many other times that you never knew about. Trust includes the things you don't know too.

 

And it's a good thing that you didn't know and ended his career back then. People have been sued for less.

[Alura 2,774]

 

And it's a good thing that you didn't know and ended his career back then. People have been sued for less.

 

Likely, it would have blown up in his face and they would both have been canned. Luckily, he has a smart wife.

 

Alura

[oldaffair 15]

I've read all your posts with great interest even though I don't agree with some of the things said.

 

Some have asked where the mistake was. I accept that women get propositioned all the time. When she told me about it I started asking questions about what happened.

 

The responses were such that my immediate gut reaction was she's lying to me. I've lived with this woman for 25 years and like most long term relationships you can tell when your spouse is being truthful or lying. I didn't have the sense that she was struggling with the memories but more of oh shit I shouldn't have mentioned that now how do I answer questions.

 

There is also context. This was early in our relationship and we had already had incidents such as her disappearing one friday afternoon without a phone call or a note and not showing back up till 3 days later. She went back to her x husband for 3 days and quote {slept on the couch}! Yeah right! Ask me if I believe that one either.

 

About 5 years ago she was heading off on another course for another company. I do all the computer maintainence for the household. It includes cleaning out her email system for junk and deleted emails she is hopeless with computers. I discovered that she joined a speed dating site that morning and had a dozen or so invitations stacked up already. Her excuse- I didn't understand what I was joining. ! Yeah right what part of the word DATING didn't you understand?

 

I started looking further and discovered she'd been searching an old boyfriends name on facebook and google for the last 5-6 months at least 3x a week. This is the boyfriend that she went out with for 4 years or so and then broke up and married her first husband. He had surfaced during their marriage and she went out with him but told me she decided it would be a mistake and got him to take her home. Her excuse for searching now? she was curious to know what he was doing. 3x a week curious?

 

When we started swinging like most couples we had plenty of rules. Every rule violation that happened was her. For instance we had and still do a rule against public displays with partners. T.O.W and I come walking out of their house and discover her and T.O.H standing there in broad daylight in front of the entire neighborhood swapping tonsils and hands going. Needless to say T.O.W went ballistic and I was less than impressed to say the least.

 

We met this other couple whose ideas were that he would have sex with my wife and his wife, or his wife and I could watch him have sex with my wife, but his wife would not have sex with another guy. Yeah right. We declined that invitation but we got along well socially and had a few good evenings together over dinner and conversation.

 

Well one night I'm alone in the hot tub with my back to the pool and I realize all of a sudden that there is a lot of giggling going on and not much swimming noise. When I looked this guy is crouched in the shallow end with one girl on each knee and my wife is giving him a H.J and they're swapping spit. Her excuse was she was drunk and got carried away when the other wife took her hand and put it on his cock. Needless to say we were out of there NOW and had one of the worst fights of our marriage. I was humiliated she went along with them.

 

I could relate a few other incidents like this. For those who will tell me we shouldn't be swinging like this I agree and we have already stopped.

 

Three years ago on new years day she told me she was packing a suitcase and leaving. That one was entirely my fault. I had gotten to the point of hating big parties or parties where I didn't know anyone and would be ready to leave 10 minutes after I arrived. I can't tell you how many places I dragged her out of or sent her alone because I didn't want to go. In this case I dragged her out of a New Years party and left 6 friends behind one of whom had spent hundreds of dollars on food and champagne for an after party we were supposed to go to.

 

The good news is after discussion I understood her need & I realized I had to change that my behavior was no longer normal. I've succeeded to the point that the last few parties I closed down and had to be the one dragged out. The christmas one mentioned before the guy that was chasing her girlfriend came up to me when we were leaving and told me she really enjoyed meeting me and would love to have us for dinner and laid a nice christmas kiss on me and several on my cheek. I went out of there with lipstick marks all over my face. Strange thing is no one noticed until we got to the car and then like holy shit what happened to you.

 

This is a girl that loves to party and socialize so I guess I can view some of the incidents with other guys as being a desperate escapism during the times she did get to party.

 

A little over a year ago she told me that she no longer wanted to have sex with me because I had gotten too fat. I suffered some fairly severe sports injuries to my legs a few years ago and subsequent surgeries have been unsuccessful. I can't walk much without pain and swelling and have a very difficult time working out. Even upper body I have 5 or so rotator cuff injuries, torn my pectoral muscles and injured the lower back. 1 workout= 1-2 days rehab. As a result I have put on weight. After a year of my five fingered friend I announced I was leaving I wasn't putting up with it anymore. So she decided she would have sex again. Problem is I couldn't touch her. Going near her I would lose my hard on or not even be able to get one. I mean what do you say to someone who tells you that you don't turn them on anymore. I mean what is it a mercy fuck???

 

For those of you that have managed to read this far I thank you. It has been cathartic for me to write it all and read back through it as it's made me realize that we have fundamental problems that exceed the reason for the original post. I'm thinking that the confession and the fact I think she lied was really the straw that broke the camels back.

 

I think without a doubt if we're going to survive past this point we need some serious heavy duty counselling.

 

I honestly believe this woman loves me and I know I love her. I can't even imagine my life without her. I think both of us want to give something better to the relationship but we've lost our way under the weight of these other issues.

 

I know some of you may have some further comment and I will read them but may not respond.

[oldaffair 15]

 

And it's a good thing that you didn't know and ended his career back then. People have been sued for less.

 

Nope

 

This guy was her direct supervisor. The company has a no harrassment policy and he would be the front line administrator for any problems. He would be required to know the policy and be prepared to impliment it. The fact is he would have been canned in a heartbeat for asking a direct employee to spend the night in his room.

 

It gets even more interesting when you know that it was him that would send her on this course. It was an entry level course 12-18 months in and there was no way he would have been on it. As a manager he would have completed it years before. It takes place in a major city thousands of miles away from us. He could only have been there if he was attending a managers course. The company would have 60-80 people every week in for training. You fly in Sun night and fly out fri afternoon. They spread their business among several hotels and the higher up the food chain you are the better the hotel and digs are. His course would have been in another hotel entirely.

 

I did some of his early training. He has a reputation of being quiet, dedicated and hard working. Also married and children. I have a hard time seeing him as the type to just proposition someone, especially an employee he supervises directly, to go to his room. Which should have been in a different hotel.

[IEcouple 222]

All of that history is a completely different context than what you had provided before! No wonder you had suspicions.

 

As for sexual harassment policies, I didn't say that he was in the right. But lawsuits still happen and can get really ugly. And even if he were canned and she was vindicated, the aftermath can be a lot of drama in the workplace. That's what I'm saying you're fortunate to have avoided.

[Alura 2,774]

I see no reason to respond if you don't care to answer. Did anybody ever suggest that you may not be the easiest person around with whom to live?

 

Alura

[oldaffair 15]

I see no reason to respond if you don't care to answer. Did anybody ever suggest that you may not be the easiest person around with whom to live?

 

Alura

 

ROFLMAO yes that's been mentioned a few times. But then again who isn't over 25 years. BTW I liked your suggestion best for using pillow talk to draw it out of her. I think that was the best suggestion of all.

 

But now I know we really need to head for counselling the original question is moot. It just didn't seem important to respond to that anymore. But I am reading and will respond if I feel I can add more.

[Desdemona1980 297]

Oldaffair - You have a lot of issues going on. Going by what you have posted it sounds like your wife did and does have boundary issues. I will say even without the newest info, I don't think it was wrong of you to be hurt and frustrated about finding out about the situation 20+ years ago. As you said, it was new for you and also the relationship at the time was not "open", so if she invited the proposal in any way, it was a sign she was willing to risk the marriage. That would be a hard pill to swallow even 20 years later, because it isn't about what did or didn't happen but what she might have been willing to risk, and would she be willing to risk it today.

 

I think you and your wife need to have a serious and heart felt talk about your perceptions, and not starting with the issue 20 years ago, but with her ongoing boundary issues. Keep an open mind and make sure you "listen" and really hear her. It comes down to basic disrespect, especially if she always has an excuse and doesn't look closely at how her actions affect you.

 

I think it's wise you have stepped back from swinging. I also think bringing in a professional to help unpack all of this is necessary. You've been hanging onto hurts for a long time.

[Fundamental Law 2,885]

A few notes...

 

The conversation here seems to be less about swinging and more about the fundamentals of your relationship with your spouse. Fair to say that if the fundamentals of trust, genuine affection, placing your partner's needs at/above your own, etc are not there, then swinging is not going to be fun.

 

Your hurt might have started 20 y ago, but persists. It has to be explored, debrided and healed. The core question is what the relationship means to each of you. As others have suggested, a counselor may be able to help both of you get to honest and candid answers.

 

For vanilla couples, the conversation about sex partners is typically "You're not my first, but you are my last." For LS people, it's more often, "You're not my first, you're not my last, but you are absolutely my most important/meaningful." If that last clause is not real--the one about the one that 'matters most' --then the relationship is going to be on progressively shakier ground. Even among vanillas, "absolutely my most important/meaningful" is key to happiness. The difference between vanillas and LS people is that business about 'last'. Sex can only be recreational in a marriage when both partners have the other's happiness and security as their first priority.

[Swing*8701 887]

Wow, ya know a lie of omission is still a lie. Facts + Context = Truth and you sure left out a lot of both to understanding your truth. You're unhappy in the relationship and you're looking for trouble. Something , anything to justify your point of view and perhaps some actions you're considering taking . If you had to go back a couple of decades to find that trouble, no problem. What you are doing is so common most therapists would recognize it immediately. If you get counseling, you may be able to save this situation, but the first step is to stop looking for trouble.

 

I find it interesting how couples that Swing get enraged over the actions of a spouse crossing some line, etc and using that as justification for lifelong suspicion. The simple fact is , if you're on the fringe of any activity, from racing bicycles to sex, once in a while, you're going to get bloodied, literally or metaphorically, and you can't whine about it.

 

As far as the weight, I get that it's tough. Talk to a doctor, get into a swimming pool and revise those eating habits. Then fuck her brains out.

[JustAskJulie 2,595]

Based on your responses so far, I can understand why she hasn't shared this info with you previously. Yes, she may have made a mistake 20+ years ago... but she evidently had the brains to stop it before it became a bigger mistake. Had she been smart, she would have kept it to herself even now. I read something years ago about how when we admit to an infidelity we aren't doing it for the person we are admitting it to, but we are doing it to ease our own minds. It makes use feel better, but makes the other person feel like shit. This is a perfect example of that. As here you sit wondering "what really happened?" You are going to drive yourself crazy with questions, but what good would the answers really do you? None. If you found out that any of your assumptions were right and she had done anything to give him any idea that something could happen, then you will just be pissed all over again.

 

From your descriptions it sounds like he was probably interested in her before this trip took place, and set the trip up in hopes of something happening. Whatever he might have done, that in no way means that she gave him any idea that anything more would happen, or that anything did happen. Perhaps what she left out was simply that he kissed her before she pushed him away. Or maybe she was a little flirty because she'd had too much to drink and she feels guilty about it. There are lot of "what ifs" and a lot of "maybes".

 

You can make a choice here. You can either let it go and go about your happy life and continue to be happy. In which case, I suggest the advice given earlier of getting yourself out of the house for a weekend and working through by hitting some balls or building something or whatever it is that is your choice method of working through things. Or you can take a little scratch, and rub it with sandpaper (confront her and ask her what really happened) until it grows into a huge sore that gets worse and worse and really affects your entire relationship in a negative way. My thought is that even if you did that via pillow talk, you'd just leave the discussion feeling worse (either she'll admit to something which will leave you with major trust issues... or she won't admit to anything and you'll still walk away not trusting her). It's your choice.... you can be right...or you can be happy.

[DaggersNRoses 271]

Your additional information on your marriage paints a different picture of it than we all have been responding to.

 

I think your marriage has many issues that I know I am unqualified to assist with.

[oldaffair 15]

Again thank you all for your contributions.

 

Just an update I sat down with her the same day I last posted here and told her we needed counselling as I had several issues that were really bothering me. Her response was we should be able to talk it out ourselves.

 

I said I felt they were issues that needed a neutral third party so that it just didn't turn into an argument. So we are now looking for a suitable counsellor.

[DaggersNRoses 271]

I hope things go well for you. I wish you hapiness.

 

 

The Rose

[pna42 67]

If it was 20 years ago and she said she turned him down and you're still happily together, I'd let it go.

[cplnuswing 4,713]

Thanks for posting a followup. I hope things work out for you both and your relationship comes out of this stronger than ever before.

[LFM2 1,482]

I also wish you nothing but happiness in your marriage.

 

If it requires an impartial third party, I say go for it.

 

Thanks for the followup to your thread. Please keep us posted how things are going.

[Fundamental Law 2,885]

Bravo to both of you for your forward looking approach. Best wishes for your future happiness to be be even greater than the past.