Sex change surgery and swinging

[Guest Unregistered]

WARNING: Please don't be offended by the following.

 

I'm not sure if any of you will have any thought on this, but I was passing through and was hoping there would at least be an opinion.

 

My spouse and I were involved in a few swinging relationships about five years ago. Much has happened since then including a gender change (my once husband is now my wife). She is beautiful, attentive and loving and sexy as can be. We have many supportive friends including one of the old swinging partners. The problem we have is we want to swing again and are unsure of how to reintroduce ourselves into the community as a lesbian couple. Especially a lesbian couple where one possesses genitals that have not been operated on as of yet.

 

Do I just go straight forward and ask the couple if there would be any level of interest in the twist? Or should I just realize that they were once interested and probably would speak up if this sort of thing was something they wanted to be part of?

 

I would think that our unique situation might be desirable among some, but have yet to find out where and with whom.

 

Any comments?

[Flori_DAMAN 26]

WARNING: Please don't be offended by the following.

 

I'm not sure if any of you will have any thought on this, but I was passing through and was hoping there would at least be an opinion.

 

My spouse and I were involved in a few swinging relationships about five years ago. Much has happened since then including a gender change (my once husband is now my wife). She is beautiful, attentive and loving and sexy as can be. We have many supportive friends including one of the old swinging partners. The problem we have is we want to swing again and are unsure of how to reintroduce ourselves into the community as a lesbian couple. Especially a lesbian couple where one possesses genitals that have not been operated on as of yet.

 

Do I just go straight forward and ask the couple if there would be any level of interest in the twist? Or should I just realize that they were once interested and probably would speak up if this sort of thing was something they wanted to be part of?

 

I would think that our unique situation might be desirable among some, but have yet to find out where and with whom.

 

Any comments?

 

The major ramifications of a sex change operation should include extensive counseling. I would hope that you and your spouse rely on that more than swinging boards.

[jinca 15]

In order to have GRS one has to live full-time in the new gender role for at least one year, hormone therapy for one year and a recommendation from a psychologist and psychatrist that they have been seeing for a year. My spouse (and I) have substantially exceeded the required "year" on all of these counts.

 

It seems your reply is a little condescending. Insinuating that anyone would haphazardly embark on such a course seems to me that you presume me and/or my spouse idiotic.

 

It really wasn't the comment type I was looking for, but I suppose I opened myself up for this reply.

 

To clarify, I am not seeking approval or counsel in the area I mentioned, but rather, questions pertaining to reconnecting with a couple that we used to play with frequently and are still very close with.

 

My spouse and I have an "active" sex life together and want to know if the "lifestyle" will ever be part of our lives again.

[Elusive BiFem 70]

I'm a little confused. Your male husband is now a female. Got that part. And you are currently a female. Got that, I think.

 

Here is my confusion - you mention playing as a lesbian couple. So that means that you are currently a lesbian? And you intend to go through the sex-change procedure? Which will convert you to a male? So after that, will you not be a male/female couple?

 

Or have you adapted to your husbands sex change?

 

But to answer your question with my opinion, I suppose it doesn't really matter.

 

As with everything - honesty. If the couple or person you are interested in approaching already knows the situation, it should be relatively easy to bring it up in a non-threatening and straight-forward manner. If they have been supportive, as you say, then they most likely would not have any issues with it. It is far easier to "grow and evolve" with our friends than it is to accept the new and different from strangers.

 

I would imagine it would be far more difficult to discuss with "strangers" and there will probably be many, many questions and many rejections. Are you ready to answer all of those questions and field the rejections?

 

And please don't be offended by this statement, but...if you approached me, my answer would most likely be, "no, not interested." For me, I want my occasional sexual experiences to be free and easy - meaning without complications and worries. Right or wrong in my thoughts, I would feel that you two had too many issues that you were dealing with and needed to get worked out, and most especially since you had not yet undergone the sex-change surgery that you desire. (Assuming I understood that correctly.) But generally speaking, there is a niche for everyone - you may just have to search longer and further than average.

 

Best of luck in that search.

[jinca 15]

Your answer was appreciated. It seems you had it somewhat right.

 

I am a genetic woman (and not changing) and my spouse is a genetic male that has been living full-time as a woman (undistinguishable to everyone that doesn't know without her clothes off and only known by our before and after friends) but isn't scheduled for surgery for about another year. We will live as a lesbian couple.

 

I know the friends are interested in the "after", but am not sure if they are interested in the 'now". I guess there's only one way to cross that line and appreciate the suggestion of directness.

 

Thank you.

[alabamafuntonig 20]

I'm a bit curios. Does ones sexuality change? AND does the love remain the same for each other? And as I read it one has gone through this change and you (female) will be male? So why not wait till you have a penis and swing as a couple again! As this is a very abnormal occurrence I can imagine there are not too many couples out there that both went through a sex change then still remained married and further more still want to swing! It seems to me there would be way to much to handle for the average couple to even grasp!

[TNT 1,155]

She is not changing, her husband is changing (from male to female). He is living as a female now and will have surgery in the future when they will in fact be living as two females.

 

As you can see it is very hard for others to understand this. Hang in there. There are those out there who do and it does not bother them at all.

 

As far as the love still being there...true love is not for the person on the outside, but the person on the inside which does not change.

[alabamafuntonig 20]

Well in that case I'm still not sure! I mean it is all new to me! I suppose it will all be new to you guys as well!

 

As far as the love thing it is a general question concerning the people being changed! Yes, I know love is on the inside! But case in point, I love myself the way I am (man). I'm wondering, and without being rude, if the attraction and the love is still the same after such a life-changing experience?

[imsnowman 34]

Originally posted by jinca

In order to have GRS one has to live full-time in the new gender role for at least one year, hormone therapy for one year and a recommendation from a psychologist and psychatrist that they have been seeing for a year. My spouse (and I) have substantially exceeded the required "year" on all of these counts.

 

It seems your reply is a little condescending. Insinuating that anyone would haphazardly embark on such a course seems to me that you presume me and/or my spouse idiotic.

 

It really wasn't the comment type I was looking for, but I suppose I opened myself up for this reply.

 

To clarify, I am not seeking approval or counsel in the area I mentioned, but rather, questions pertaining to reconnecting with a couple that we used to play with frequently and are still very close with.

 

My spouse and I have an "active" sex life together and want to know if the "lifestyle" will ever be part of our lives again.

As a longtime poster here I can assure you that John wasn't trying to be condescending. He was simply replying to the info you first posted. You've "clarified" and expanded the available information considerably since that first post.

 

To answer what I think is your question. Be courageous and honest. Tell the folks you want to swing with what your situation is and "let the chips fall". Let them make their decision based on an honest disclosure. If they decide they don't want to play don't be offended just move on. I'm quite sure that you'll be able to find folks to play with.

[jinca 15]

I guess my original concern is that these friends of ours are absolutely awesome. Even if we never play with them again, I wouldn't want to lose them as friends. I'm thinking that they may even want to let "M" (my spouse) become "complete" for her sake, but don't want to make any assumptions. They are voyeuristic in nature and we have put together pictures for them, but nothing below the waist. Recently, the wife asked if we had anything more. I didn't ask for clarification and the moment was lost. That whole conversation got me thinking that they may not be interested in waiting a year.

 

My spouse has lived full-time for over two years. She constantly gets "hit on" by both genders as a woman. We have taken up no offers, only because it would be deceitful as they are hitting on her as a woman, and are really not interested in a Gwyn/Eddie Araujo event taking place. I'm not the "Beast" in the relationship, but she definitely takes the cake in the "Beauty" contest.

 

As to love...I think it takes a whole different kind of person to stay in a relationship that changes in this way. Sexuality and gender are two totally different issues. I'm sure you all can see that (especially after reading different posts). M considers herself lesbian and I am bisexual. That doesn't automatically make it a fit for this marriage to continue through something like this. It's taken over five years to get to a point where I know we will overcome the issues that surround this and we're still very young (she's not even thirty yet). That doesn't mean I think less of a person who doesn't stay. Actually, any person that makes a decision on this issue deserves respect in my book. I loved "him" and miss "him" and "his" qualities. But adore her and look forward to a continued loving and sexual relationship with her.

 

Hope this isn't TMI for everyone, I realize that this doesn't seem to be everyone's "bag" but it seems that more information was wanted.

[alabamafuntonig 20]

Great! That was the answers I was looking for (not that it was my question to start with). It was a question because I am ignorant of the facts concerning sex changes! From what I know they are emotional more than they are physical! I'm not sure I could handle the emotional aspect of such a change in my relationship, but applaud you for your strength! After knowing more on your motivations I don't think I would now turn such an offer away, at least I would not say no right away! I am not sure on what would be possible in a swing relationship, but is that not true for any encounter?

[Elusive BiFem 70]

Originally posted by jinca

Your answer was appreciated. It seems you had it somewhat right.

 

I am a genetic woman (and not changing) and my spouse is a genetic male that has been living full-time as a woman (undistinguishable to everyone that doesn't know without her clothes off and only known by our before and after friends) but isn't scheduled for surgery for about another year. We will live as a lesbian couple.

 

I know the friends are interested in the "after", but am not sure if they are interested in the 'now". I guess there's only one way to cross that line and appreciate the suggestion of directness.

 

Thank you.

 

OK - thanks for the clarification. I think this was the statement that through me completely off: "Especially a lesbian couple where one possesses genitals that have not been operated on as of yet." I was assuming you were going to undergo surgery, too.

 

In your last note, you said, "Hope this isn't TMI for everyone, I realize that this doesn't seem to be everyone's "bag" but it seems that more information was wanted. " That is true since most of us have never had the opportunity to talk to someone that has made the decision to go through these life-changing decisions - physically and emotionally.

 

If you don't mind answering (and it might be good practice for the future )...I would assume you considered yourself to be a heterosexual female (or possibly bi) when you married him. Now that he has become a female, you now consider yourself to be lesbian? I've been sitting here wondering how I would feel or react if the great love of my life had decided to become a woman. I suppose the basic personality, values, etc., would remain the same and therefore, maybe the emotions that I felt for that person would not change. Even giving some very 'surface thought' to this, I can certainly understand why the counseling, etc., would be necessary.

 

If you don't care to answer, I understand, but seriously, it may give you some ideas on how to approach others and how you will be responded to.

 

Also, I would think it would make it somewhat easier in terms of approaching others if only one of you has undergone surgery. When I was confused, it really seemed like a can of worms!

 

And PS: I agree with what someone said about Flori_Daman. He generally speaks from the heart with no ill-intent.

[windsor4fun2 130]

Originally posted by jinca

I guess my original concern is that these friends of ours are absolutely awesome.

 

My feelings are that you should approach them and discuss it with them. If they have been there as friends through this major change you and your spouse have been going through I would find it surprising if they suddenly turned and ran. They swung with you in the past and have indicated an interest in swinging in the future, so it it possible they are interested in the "now".

 

Good luck.

[jinca 15]

We have generally had a no questions barred rule. It makes things so much easier and usually clarifies issues for others that feel they have experience in this area . I say "feel they have no experience...because how do we know...most transsexuals go "stealth"...meaning that unless you knew them before and after they probably will successfully transition and you would never know that they were born the opposite sex.

 

This may not make a lot of sense...but I'll give it a shot...I'm not going to deny that it wasn't emotional in the beginning. I would compare it to the feeling (although I don't know it) of finding out that your spouse has cancer and is going to die. You will get to watch them go away slowly and the catch is that they have already picked out this really fantastic person for you that knows all about you and already loves you and will take great care of you. I would say the most difficult part about this is that when she emerged, we were so wrapped up in all of the changes and the support of the changes that I didn't have very much chance to say goodbye to "him". The grief process seemed long, but maybe it was average. I don't know. It is the same person, however, I have to say that it would have been easier if I had just picked out a woman that I wanted to live with. Being with a transsexual for the beginning years is like living with a teenager (everything is new and exciting to them, including the hormones and bad makeup!). We're over that hump now and I think the only big draw back is the overwhelming amount of female energy in the house. She's always had more yin in our relationship, even when she was "he". And I've always maintained the strong yang side. I think that's why our relationship transitioned well...the basic dynamics of our interaction didn't change.

 

To answer the first part of your question: I would call myself a lesbian if asked by a stranger, because it allows for less complication. I really don't feel comfortable discussing with a stranger that doesn't view things "my way" that I live with a woman (who was once a man) and I have sex with men and women.

 

Regarding the second unasked part of your question...therapy. It is required because doctors want to protect themselves. The Harry Benjamin Standards of Care (HBSOC) is the bible and rule book in the transsexual world and even though most transsexuals do not agree with everything that is mandated within they comply because of not feeling "aligned" and wanting to correct a "birth defect". I have mixed feelings on this...the first part is...I say it's their body, no one has to go through counseling to get a "boob job". And there's another piece to that too... if someone is transgendered, they just are. They can't be talked into this or out of this (transgenderism/transsexualism). Rhetorical question: if all of your friends and associates told you that you were a man (I read that you are a genetic female) would you believe them? If they told you a thousand or a million times would you believe them? Could I talk you into being a man? Could you talk yourself into being a man? Honestly, barring a few mental exceptions or if you were one of the population that was transgendered, I could say right now that if you say you are a woman, you're a woman. As a side note: What about intersexed people? (Hermaphrodites) Are they belonging to no gender or an "other" category because they have both or partial genitals? Look at Jamie Lee Curtis. Jamie Lee Curtis has one X chromosome and one Y chromosome. For those of you rusty in biology, XY means that she is chromosomally, literally, biologically male. What Jamie Lee wasn't born with were the receptors for her male hormones, so she went back to the genetic sexual default appearing female. Her penis and testicles were never able to be developed.

 

"How did she get such great tits?" I hear you wonder aloud. At puberty, the testes start to produce a large amount of the male hormone testosterone but, in the absence of its receptor, this has no effect. However, testosterone is converted to estrogen, and so normal to enthusiastic breast development occurs. It's not uncommon for those with complete AIS to have rather large breasts. There's also little to no pubic or axillary hair, and of course, no periods, as there is no uterus present to produce a lining which to shed.

 

I guess this long drawn out answer is that our society requires and medical standards have been developed to require us to prove who we are by "dropping our pants". If I say I'm female and know I'm female, it's not enough...I have to have a vagina and anything between requires the HBSOC which includes a year or more in counseling and signatures by many.

[Elusive BiFem 70]

Well, jinca, if you/ya'll come across in "real life" as well as you do on this Board, I don't think either of you will have many problems finding friends - in and out of the so-called lifestyle.

 

I greatly appreciate your honesty and forthrightness in answering my questions.

 

And having given this more thought along with your comments...I am now thinking that for a person like me...I would tend to respond in a more positive manner to the idea of swinging if a friendly relationship had developed and I was informed of these changes after the development of that relationship. I believe I would be able to appreciate the fact that you were initially hesitant to share details with me, yet honest enough to inform me before things progressed too far. Certainly, there are those that would be offended that "the truth" had not come out in the first e-mail, etc. But we always find people like that, and they are probably people I would not want to play with anyway.

 

Having gone through and endured so much together - those qualities are probably the very qualities most people will pick up on and appreciate.

 

Again, thanks for the answers and please don't disappear from the Board. Look at how much you've taught a few of us (me?) already! And we make for a great practice field for communication skills.

[jinca 15]

Don't worry...not going anywhere soon! I'm glad you learned something, sometimes the lessons elude even me.

 

Something I have learned from my membership on Transsexual boards over the years is their dating rituals. It seems the ones that are able and want to have sex prior to surgery do exactly what you described. Not telling until the last minute could be very disastrous! There are some that post surgery, never tell, because they go entirely stealth. In our case, I think that becomes VERY difficult to do. We are legally married, have a child and the story would become very complicated with all of the fabrications necessary. At events that my daughter participates in they have assumed that M is my sister and comment on how supportive she is for ONLY a sister, at that point I will usually correct them and tell them that she is my partner (they never ask why we have the same last name...but I don't think most people make the big connection...most people don't think in terms of transsexuality regardless of the evidence). We aren't advertising who we are, but we aren't ashamed of it either for people that we are willing to get closer with (even platonically). We have pictures of us on the walls of us as a male and female couple and people who don't know the whole story haven't asked about them (that seems REALLY bizarre, but they may either not notice, or not know how to ask).

 

Anyway, I had figured that other than the couple that we are hoping to reconnect with...if we were to get closer with others that we would become friendly first and then well in advance to playing we would let them know. A club situation would never be a problem, because M has never attended a club and has no interest in membership.

[JustAskJulie 2,595]

Have you talked to your friends much about the sex change? Have they voiced any concerns? interests? anything?

 

Is the male half of the other couple even mildly bi-curious?

 

If so then there might be a chance.

 

At any rate, you said you are all good friends and were before so I would hope that you've been talking with them about what is going on and can perhaps get a feel from them of any potential interest. I would say, maybe, just bring up with them the topic of swinging and let them know that you are interested in getting back into things with your husband in his/her current mid-op state. See how they respond to that. Since you were playmates before I would imagine that if they are interested they will let you know at that point. If they aren't interested, they will probably voice some concerns about your return to the lifestyle at this point (maybe telling you to put it off until the transition is complete).

 

As far as swinging at this point in general. I would just advertise honestly as I'm sure there are plenty of people out there curious about transsexuals that would love to play with you. The biggest thing would be avoiding those who just view you as a freak show.

[LadyCleo 16]

I wouldn't pass the 2 of you up just because he dresses like a woman or she has a penis (or however you care to describe it).

And I didn't write the above statement to sound harsh, I'm just trying to cut to the chase so to speak.

 

What I am looking for in a couple is attractiveness, compatibility, good personality, great senses of humor. I know that my husband would agree with me for what we are looking for. that being said, I don't know how HE would feel about your mate.

 

What I am saying is that *I* personally, don't have a problem with it.

 

I'm sure that *I* am not the only person in the world that feels this way.

 

Good luck to you both!

[namdloytrid 15]

Originally posted by jinca

We have pictures of us on the walls of us as a male and female couple and people who don't know the whole story haven't asked about them (that seems REALLY bizarre, but they may either not notice, or not know how to ask).

 

I would have to think that most cases would be the latter. I think that my personal thought processes would be on the order of "What the? How come? But she... he... Huh? Aw, fuck it." At which point my brain would just drop the issue.

 

It's hard enough asking people the "standard" personal questions much less ones that come up, let's say, less often.

[OhioCouple 40]

Originally posted by JustAskJulie

As far as swinging at this point in general. I would just advertise honestly as I'm sure there are plenty of people out there curious about transsexuals that would love to play with you.

I totally agree with this. Do be honest in whatever ad you put out and don't count yourselves out for swinging. The nice thing about swinging is that 'alternative lifesytlists' (for lack of better words) have a variety of interests and there is something or someone for everyone out there.

[windsor4fun2 130]

This is a little off topic but what legal implications, if any, will there be for you two since your already married? There has been a lot of talk here in Canada with regards to legalizing same sex marriages due to some recent Supreme Court rulings. Just curious if that will be an issue once surgery is complete.

[Flori_DAMAN 26]

Nah, I wasn't being condescending,

 

The original post was really a skeleton of the whole being and I just wondered why you didn't give us more info. It sounds like your getting plenty of good solid answers now. I guess I apologize, but I mean no harm. There are a lot of people that give out as little information as possible in order to start a heated debate and until the information is detailed it is awfully hard to give advice.

 

On this topic I feel totally inadequate to give any so I'll let my compatriots take over as they are. Sorry.

[jinca 15]

This is a little off topic but what legal implications, if any, will there be for you two since your already married?

 

Absolutely none. Long story in the short simple version, there has been several court cases that have already been ruled on for various reasons regarding custody and other issues that usually pertain to someone wanting to get out of the marriage. Basically, the ruling in all cases have been: you were once married as man and woman, you are still married regardless of surgeries or gender identity or name.

 

There are many states that allow the person to go back and even change the original birth certificate to their "corrected" gender. This creates some minor complications in the system. Many years ago, doctors wouldn't sign off on GRS (genital reassignment surgery) until the couple had divorced, so it wasn't on the state or federal level, but coming from the medical community. I suppose in most cases it doesn't matter anyway because the couple splits. Fortunately for us, we will still be married and be allowed the legal benefits that we have been entitled to since the beginning.

 

The only problems we've had is with someone that doesn't approve and wants to throw a wrench in the works. A few companies and financial institutions had employees that gave us problems on a lower level, we just took it to management and followed some instructions given by some excellent organizations that have done all of the legal research and paperwork.

 

Hope that answers the question!

[ionsawmill 86]

I wish you lots of luck. I'm still trying to wrap my brain around the idea of a man getting GRS so that he could live as a lesbian. I got to thinking: I like to have sex with women. Maybe I too am a lesbian trapped in a man's body.

 

Seriously though, this has to be the Mobius Strip of sexuality. There may be no way to straighten it out. Considering all of the implications of GRS, to ad swinging into the mix takes guts. I'd tip my hat to you, but I already took it off to scratch my head. Thank you for a very interesting post; one I shall be pondering for days.

[Elusive BiFem 70]

Originally posted by ionsawmill

Seriously though, this has to be the Mobius Strip of sexuality. There may be no way to straighten it out.

 

I looked it up:

 

Mö·bi·us strip (mœ'bē-əs, mā'-, mō'-)

n.

A continuous one-sided surface that can be formed from a rectangular strip by rotating one end 180° and attaching it to the other end

 

I still don't get it, but doubt I would even with further explanation. The definition, that is. I can be rather dense about certain things. But I would like to learn to use it in a sentence - sounds kind of impressive - along the lines of when I learned to say the C moss on my mother board. Didn't know what it meant but it sounded just great, and I managed to throw it out there every now and then!!

 

But getting a grip on how this relationship was working out was definitely confusing initially, but now I've got that down pat, I believe. It has certainly given rise to some interesting thoughts and questions.

[ionsawmill 86]

Originally posted by Elusive BiFem

I still don't get it, but doubt I would even with further explanation. The definition, that is. ... But I would like to learn to use it in a sentence - sounds kind of impressive

 

You got me. That's the only reason I used that word. Did it work?

 

A Mobius strip is "nonsense object" which can only be comprehended outside of three-dimensional space. Applying that to this thread, one could say that Jinca's situation can't be viewed from any traditional point of view. There's no way to relate without expanding your definitions of sex and gender.

 

Tricky!

[jinca 15]

Considering all of the implications of GRS, to ad swinging into the mix takes guts. I'd tip my hat to you, but I already took it off to scratch my head. Thank you for a very interesting post; one I shall be pondering for days.

 

The GRS is really, in my opinion, the last and smallest of the hurdles. It ices the cake, so to speak, but all of the other stuff seems a bigger deal to me.

 

Swinging still has the same meaning to us (me, I guess that's the only person I can truly speak for). It allows me to enjoy my sexuality and brings depth into my existing relationship and immediate pleasure in my playing relationships. As things continue to change in the physical arena of her transition, swinging will allow me to "fill the void" and continue to be fulfilled sexually by a male partner and add more fun and excitement to my bisexual needs.

 

Thanks for the compliment,

J.