Progressive Swinging

[DaggersNRoses 271]

I don't like the term progressive used with swinging. It does suggest somehow more enlightened or better.

[slevin 1,374]

I haven't listened to the podcast, so my comment is just on the face of what you posted here. The choice of the term "progressive" here leads me to believe that this is about them feeling their approach to swinging is "better". In other words, a "progressive" swinger isn't promiscuous, they establish long term friendship-swinging relationships with a small group of friends. It seems more like judgment than something needing another term. If it does need another term I don't think progressive swinging is the right term. Using that term tacitly imposes that any other kind isn't progressive. That's imposing a negative light on the way many people approach swinging. One isn't better than the other; different things work for different people.

 

I read a lot into their choice of terms here though. Perhaps I'm way off base

[MrMarvin 268]

I do not pay it much attention. Its a label someone has chosen to give themselves; do what is right and comfortable to you and don't worry about it. At least that is my philosophy.

[SwingWife04 17]

From listening to the podcasts, I agree with a d xxx's take on this. However I don’t necessarily like the term progressive. When I think of progressive, I think of it in the political sense, liberal. And when my mind goes to that, it makes it sound like swinging is supporting other "progressive" ideologies. I don’t know, and seriously doubt, that cooper used it on purpose for that or not but that is what it means to me.

 

It also conveys that those that think like him are moving swinging forward whereas the rest of us are stuck in the past. I don’t believe that to be true.

 

As I see it person can identify themselves however they want. If someone wants to call themselves a progressive swinger that is fine with me for now anyways. I think the term needs more time to develop into what it will actually mean, like soft swap or full swap.

[Chicup 41]

And here I thought the term for that was "exclusive", as in "we only have sex with these other couples".

 

Calling it progressive is silly, being there is nothing "progressive" about it.

 

We ourselves have always hoped to find a group of friends like they mention, just because it was easier and we like having friends who are swinging. We have failed in this for a number of reasons, but we still hope that some day we will be able to find such a group. Its not that important though either.

[a_d_xxx 663]

I think it is a mischaracterization to say that progressive swinging is synonymous with 'friends with benefits' or 'exclusive'.

 

The Swingset crew are clear that they swing, and are open to swinging with new play partners - they are definitely not exclusive. Where they differ significantly from the traditional view of swinging is in their openness to the potential of meaningful relationships growing from those encounters (if that happens) and the openness to the kink/LGBTQ panoply of human sexuality.

 

You may be able to make the argument that the term progressive is ill chosen because of the its loaded meaning, but I don't think there is any argument that their behaviour differs significantly from that of the mainstream swinger.

 

Alternately, you could possibly argue that they are "Queer swingers with poly tendencies" or "Polyamorous folks who swing", but obviously they feel this term fits them better.

[funcoupledayton 2,708]

I am a big fan, and a part of the Life on the Swingset writing team. I am also a huge fan of the SwapFu's. Both these podcasts have really helped shape my approach to swinging and running a swing group.

 

I've listened to all the podcasts and I see both sides. I don't think there is a need for the label progressive swinger. What I do with my meet and greet group does follow the Swingset philosophy of building community, encouraging safer sex, being inclusive toward LGBT and kinky swingers and being an advocate for sex positivity.

 

However, I am a swinger, just a swinger. I will sometimes have one time casual sex, I will sometimes travel and spend a whole weekend with swing partners, I will have ongoing sexy texts, I will just see someone once at a club. I enjoy the relationships of swinging, but it's really about my relationship with my husband, something fun and sexy we do together. Honestly I think that's how the Swingset crew who consider themselves swingers operate, too.

 

I think the Swingset just wanted a short-hand way to describe the way they play. It's really nothing new or different than what most of us do. Calling it progressive does have a little bit of a superior attitude, I don't think they really meant it that way. It's just the word they came up with.

 

They are a really cool group and great advocates for swinging, I've met them in person and really enjoyed them. I would love to meet the Swap Fu's and Allie and John of Swingercast. I think all of them do a great job.

[slevin 1,374]

You may be able to make the argument that the term progressive is ill chosen because of the its loaded meaning, but I don't think there is any argument that their behaviour differs significantly from that of the mainstream swinger.

 

That is exactly how I feel. The choice of words seems like a judgment of other forms of swinging. In other words, they're progressive and some day we'll all grow and follow their path. That might not be their intention, but I think the loaded term progressive leaves that impression.

[JustAskJulie 2,595]

This is a post on the BlissBringers blog In Defense of Labels, referring to the negative reaction to the term Progressive Swingers.

 

I will admit that my first reaction to the term "Progressive Swingers" was not good. My comment on Twitter was that the term made me gag a little. Thinking about it, it's not so much the term itself (although I do get where people see a negative (judgemental) link with the term "progressive swingers". Thinking about it more and reading this rebuttal, here are my thoughts (also posted as a comment on the blog post linked above)

--

I haven’t had a chance to actually listen to the podcast yet [I really should do this], however I’ve seen a similar explanation given on my site by someone who does listen regularly and therefore “gets” where the SwingSet team was coming from. I’m not saying the term “progressive swingers” is right or wrong, all I am saying is I’m kinda tired of a new label popping up every day. The increase in labels lead to a lot of confusion, especially for those who are new to swinging. You are right that there are already so many terms that when “defined” by multiple people will bring a similar yet slightly different definition each time. As it is, we already have to provide definitions instead of terms on a regular basis when it comes to explaining who we are and what we are looking for. I understand why people would want to shrink the definitions down so they are easier to convey… the only problem is that the only way the terms make things easier is if EVERYONE agrees on the definitions.

--

[two4youinswva 3,068]

JustAskJulie said:

I understand why people would want to shrink the definitions down so they are easier to convey… the only problem is that the only way the terms make things easier is if EVERYONE agrees on the definitions.

 

My thought was that before we can label something as "Progressive Swinging", we should finally come to an agreement on a definition of Swinging.

[a_d_xxx 663]

Ultimately I think that labels live and die in the marketplace of ideas. My gut is telling me that since the Lifestyle is tiny and fragmented already, and that the number of those willing to define themselves via someone else's label is likely pretty small, the likelihood of progressive swinging/er joining the mainstream lexicon is slim. Regardless, I don't think as a term it is likely to dangerously confuse anyone, and at worst it would simply spawn a question: "You call yourself are a progressive swinger, what the heck does that mean?"

 

If the Swingset crew think it correctly encapsulates how they feel about their approach to ethical non-monogamy, and gain a sense of empowerment using it as a banner, I have no problem with that.

[cplnuswing 4,712]

The problem with using words for labels that have an opposite is even if that is not the intent, it can leave a bad taste in someone's mouth about being elitist, etc. I usually don't get too caught up in words, but in this case hearing someone say they are a "progressive" swinging makes me wonder who they then think is a "regressive" swinger, and what exactly that means. So you are cave man with his club on his shoulder who after all the flirting, dancing, etc. knocks someone over the head with their club and drags them by the hair back to their cave for some swinging sex?

[CandLinPC 92]

/sigh. Context is a powerful thing sometimes. This topic is a bit of a minefield.

 

Cooper's/LotS' ethos is not quite so easily explained, nor pushed aside. First and foremost, The Swingset is generally dissatisfied with labels, even going so far as to give ironic caveats during the podcast when they use labels in discussions. They can be of help sometimes, but when they don't exactly fit, we sometimes go in search of a new label to make our own. I'll quote Cooper's Manifesto II here to make my points.

 

Quote

Once you know someone in a non-monogamous relationship that isn’t a skeevy perv, (or at least, is a skeevy perv you quite enjoy spending time with) it’s that much harder to be judgemental about the Lifestyle as a whole. Because really there is no “The Lifestyle,” just millions of variants on the simple truth that for many of us variety truly IS the spice of life, that simple truth that sharing is caring, that simple truth that, well, one is okay, two is better, and three’s a fuckin’ party. In the last few months I’ve seen non-monogamy from so many different points of view, from people where all they need to add that spice is to be allowed to flirt without fear of retribution, all the way down to people who take vacations with secondary partners, and everybody is happy as can be.

 

There’s drama, yes, there are issues, sure. And if you haven’t encountered them yet, you will. And there’ll be days where fucking non-monogamy sucks so bad you want to just curl up into a ball and scream into the darkness that it’s NOT FUCKING FAIR, things were SUPPOSED to be better! In June of this year, Marilyn and I broke up with a girl who meant a tremendous deal to us, and we felt the depth of the valleys one can encounter in non-monogamy. Whether one considers our relationship with her to be swinging, or polyamory, or some variant in between, it fucking sucked, and we went down hard.

 

But having The Swingset, having the friends and lovers that surround us, made it so much easier. So much so that we grew up, and we grew out, and we learned to love again as it were.

 

Quote

Life on the Swingset began its life as a podcast about swinging. But going forward I want it to be so much more. Because in my time I’ve learned that not only are the boundaries between swinging and poly fuzzy, they’re rather inconsequential. Under the SOP umbrella, the Swinger the Open the Polyamorous are all variations on a single theme. Meaningful human connection. Even those swingers who are staunchly anti relationship and would prefer to go quietly into the good night and forget their partners completely cannot deny that in that moment, whether you call it the fuck, or making love, you’re experiencing meaningful human connection.

 

So while it may not have been clear in the past, I want to make it DAMN clear now. The Swingset isn’t about swinging; it’s the SOP revolution. Every facet of the human condition that applies to positive sexuality, and shrugging off the shackles of old and evil, the ones hell bent on telling us who we are, what we can want. It’s omnisexual and pansexual. It’s polyamorous and non-monogamous. Gay, bi, straight, asexual, somewhere in between, come and grab a swing and let’s talk, and hang out, and try to understand where each other’s coming from.

 

Because that’s what it’s really all about, isn’t it? And why I couldn’t possibly leave.

 

Cooper's post was written before coming up with the label, Progressive Swinging, but this is the ethos or mentality that he is encapsulating in that label. It really is more well thought out, and certainly more charitable than "I'm better than you because I do it differently." In fact, he is specifically saying that you should find what you want and go get it, no matter what other people say, and he will fight for your right to do it your way without interference or shame.

 

As he said, "Under the SOP umbrella, the Swinger the Open the Polyamorous are all variations on a single theme. Meaningful human connection."

[slevin 1,374]

As he said, "Under the SOP umbrella, the Swinger the Open the Polyamorous are all variations on a single theme. Meaningful human connection."

 

Love the idea, hate the term.

[Chicup 41]

Free love by any other name.....

[mauijanedoe 1,414]

My opposite for progressive is traditional, rather than regressive, so I'm having a bit of a tough time understanding why it would bother anyone. An approach to swinging that is kink positive and inclusive of LGBTQ isn't currently the norm and isn't what most people think of when describing what they believe swinging is, which might make a qualifier useful. In any case, if any term that differentiated it from the more usual couples-based approach, whether you call it "George" or "Progressive Swinging," became accepted it would just be another bubble in the Venn Diagram that is non-monogamy.

[slevin 1,374]

My opposite for progressive is traditional, rather than regressive

 

But if you go by the actual definition I think you'll see where I am coming from:

 

Definition of progressive

adjective

 

1happening or developing gradually or in stages; proceeding step by step:a progressive decline in popularity

2(of a group, person, or idea) favoring or implementing social reform or new, liberal ideas:a relatively progressive governor

 

And the antonyms:

 

Antonyms: conservative, moderate

 

You could also use traditional as an antonym, but it's not the immediate one that comes to mind for me.

[sunbuckus 3,567]

I had a curious thought...how many swingers actually think about this kind of stuff? I know that here on the forum, some of us love to debate and discuss these sorts of topics and issues but I bet that the majority of swingers would probably not even realize that there are labels further than "swinger" much less give two cents about having an opinion either way.

[mauijanedoe 1,414]

You could also use traditional as an antonym, but it's not the immediate one that comes to mind for me.

 

But that's about you and your response, not something universal and not something meant, it appears, by the person using the term. I get it, because there are terms that set my teeth on edge, too, but the words themselves don't have a charge unless I give them one.

 

I had a curious thought...how many swingers actually think about this kind of stuff? I know that here on the forum, some of us love to debate and discuss these sorts of topics and issues but I bet that the majority of swingers would probably not even realize that there are labels further than "swinger" much less give two cents about having an opinion either way.

 

I would guess that some kinky and/or LGBTQ swingers just might give a handful of change. It certainly seems that sometimes those for whom a particular label doesn't fit well look for one that chafes a little less. If a term doesn't bug you, then, no, there's no real reason to care.

[slevin 1,374]

I had a curious thought...how many swingers actually think about this kind of stuff? I know that here on the forum, some of us love to debate and discuss these sorts of topics and issues but I bet that the majority of swingers would probably not even realize that there are labels further than "swinger" much less give two cents about having an opinion either way.

 

For me this is definitely one of those topics that doesn't really matter much. I have an opinion on it, but if someone we liked called themselves "progressive swingers" I wouldn't really care. I think we just have the luxury of a lot of smart and passionate people here to discuss small topics like this in a lot of detail

[slevin 1,374]

But that's about you and your response, not something universal and not something meant, it appears, by the person using the term. I get it, because there are terms that set my teeth on edge, too, but the words themselves don't have a charge unless I give them one.

 

For sure, but there are also common uses of words. Just because I may pick the little used definition of a term, and be correct, doesn't mean the majority of people will understand my intention. I'm sure they didn't intend for the choice of term to mean progressive in the way I use the term. I love their expanded description of their philosophy.

[losAmantes 318]

I had a curious thought...how many swingers actually think about this kind of stuff? I know that here on the forum, some of us love to debate and discuss these sorts of topics and issues but I bet that the majority of swingers would probably not even realize that there are labels further than "swinger" much less give two cents about having an opinion either way.

I've been following this thread, scratching my head and wondering the same thing! Newbies reading this are probably more confused about swinging than ever, they overanalyze everything already. Does anyone just have NSA sex anymore? You know, the good stuff where you pick up a hot couple at a party, play all night, then get home and realize you never got their names. Are we the only ones out there that are sex first, and MAYBE, if the sex was good enough, friends later?

[a_d_xxx 663]

Does anyone just have NSA sex anymore? You know, the good stuff...

 

This reminds me of a story about my Mother in law. We were visiting and making sandwiches for lunch and I asked about mustard, just wanting standard yellow mustard to put on my ham, she replied: "Yes, I have mustard, honey mustard, the good kind."

 

Everyone gets to define what the 'good stuff' is for themselves. I'm fine with that, you can scoff at or ignore the intellectualizing and debate if it's not your cup of tea. There are lots of other threads here.

[Chicup 41]

I get a bit of a chuckle out of the idea that there is "conservative" swinging. I'm not talking the misused and misunderstood political term, but just from a position of swingers sipping cognac and looking down on the "progressive" swingers.

 

I'm personally not sure what they are talking about would qualify as swinging. Its sort of a Robert Heinlein philosophy only with more open homosexuality. Being like many Geek swingers, Robert Heinlein's books are what prompted my thinking about making swinging a reality in the first place, I can see the appeal, but I feel its more of a whatever floats your boat thing here than anything that requires a specific labeling.

[JustAskJulie 2,595]

Chicup said:

I get a bit of a chuckle out of the idea that there is "conservative" swinging. I'm not talking the misused and misunderstood political term, but just from a position of swingers sipping cognac and looking down on the "progressive" swingers.

 

I'm personally not sure what they are talking about would qualify as swinging. Its sort of a Robert Heinlein philosophy only with more open homosexuality. Being like many Geek swingers, Robert Heinlein's books are what prompted my thinking about making swinging a reality in the first place, I can see the appeal, but I feel its more of a whatever floats your boat thing here than anything that requires a specific labeling.

 

They exist. They just don't call themselves swingers. This whole debate reminded me of a situation that happened a few years ago. I posted about it here: Is Swinging the Ugly StepChild of Alt Lifestyles? What I've realized in the few years since then is that quite a few of my friends are what we would define as swingers, but they would NEVER call it that.

 

This also came up in my discussion over at BlissBringers regarding the term "open". They commented that they'd never known anyone to say they were "open" but not swingers. Whereas this group of my friends ALL fall into that category. Swinging? Oh no we don't do that. We just have open relationships (which include anything from polyamorous relationships to just fucking strangers and various conventions).

[Chicup 41]

I've come across the same people in "open/poly" relationships, they look down on swinging. Personally I think many couples use the poly label to feel less dirty as swingers, when they are actually simply swingers with friends who swing too.

 

Apparently we swingers just fuck everything and have no desire to be friends with the people we fuck

[NYFlirts 158]

Wow, this thread is PERFECT TIMING!!!

 

Yesterday we were hanging out with a couple and as we were leaving the woman said, "We understand that you aren't progressive swingers, but possibly we'll end up having a good friendship."

 

WTH?!?!?

 

 

My wife and I were like "What is she talking about and WTH is "progressive swinging"!?!?

 

From the context of the earlier conversation with them we guessed that she meant, "Well, it seems like you two don't want to have an individual relationship with us one-on-one, so you must not be progressive like we are!"

 

I donno, and I'm interested in asking for more clarification and details on exactly what she meant... but it was just really really weird to hear her say that.

[Chicup 41]

NYFlirts said:

Wow, this thread is PERFECT TIMING!!!

 

Yesterday we were hanging out with a couple and as we were leaving the woman said, "We understand that you aren't progressive swingers, but possibly we'll end up having a good friendship."

 

WTH?!?!?

 

My wife and I were like "What is she talking about and WTH is "progressive swinging"!?!?

 

From the context of the earlier conversation with them we guessed that she meant, "Well, it seems like you two don't want to have an individual relationship with us one-on-one, so you must not be progressive like we are!"

 

I dunno, and I'm interested in asking for more clarification and details on exactly what she meant... but it was just really really weird to hear her say that.

 

I would have just flat out asked what they thought a progressive swinger was.

[M&S 266]

I have heard the podcast and, while I don't like the judgment implied in the term, I like the concept.

 

There are some swingers who deliberately and categorically do not want to know or be friends with the people they play with. There are others who only play with couples we would like enough to hang out on a social basis. I am definitely in the later camp, but certainly have no issues with the former. I do, however, believe the distinction is as significant as the distinction between soft and full swap, so having a term for it is probably not a bad idea - social swingers (not to be confused with socialist swingers)

[AR1547 131]

To me, "progressive" is an entirely political term. I'd bet money it also is to the self-styled "progressive swingers".

[JustAskJulie 2,595]

I just got an email from DrZiggy about how he was frustrated the media's recent attitude towards swinging. Evidently, he's noticed that their attitude is that swinging is reprehensible but Poly is just fine (seems to be the flavor of the moment). In chatting with him about this, I thought about this thread. Pulling it back up and seeing the term that "Life on the SwingSet" came up with, it got me thinking again... perhaps this was their way of accepting and encouraging others to accept that what they are doing is SWINGING. Note that their term still includes "swinging" in the term itself, rather than throwing it out completely as so many seem happy to do lately.

[sunbuckus 3,567]

I just got an email from DrZiggy about how he was frustrated the media's recent attitude towards swinging. Evidently, he's noticed that their attitude is that swinging is reprehensible but Poly is just fine (seems to be the flavor of the moment). In chatting with him about this, I thought about this thread. Pulling it back up and seeing the term that "Life on the SwingSet" came up with, it got me thinking again... perhaps this was their way of accepting and encouraging others to accept that what they are doing is SWINGING. Note that their term still includes "swinging" in the term itself, rather than throwing it out completely as so many seem happy to do lately.

 

I think that's an interesting theory...my opinion was actually the opposite in that they still wanted to keep the term swinging because there was/is a stigma about the term poly in the swinger community.

[Chicup 41]

I just got an email from DrZiggy about how he was frustrated the media's recent attitude towards swinging. Evidently, he's noticed that their attitude is that swinging is reprehensible but Poly is just fine (seems to be the flavor of the moment). In chatting with him about this, I thought about this thread. Pulling it back up and seeing the term that "Life on the SwingSet" came up with, it got me thinking again... perhaps this was their way of accepting and encouraging others to accept that what they are doing is SWINGING. Note that their term still includes "swinging" in the term itself, rather than throwing it out completely as so many seem happy to do lately.

 

Poly is obviously next in line for "tolerance" now that gay marriage seems to be more accepted then not. Swinging will never be seen in the same light as swinging will always be seen as a threat to some.

 

Poly is still under the "love" umbrella, while swinging is the sex. This rocks a lot of people at the insecurity level.

 

Edit: and I'll be honest, I'm still not sure what the hell they mean by "progressive swinging" in any light. It still rubs me the wrong way, and as a "better than your way" sort of term.

[JustAskJulie 2,595]

Poly is obviously next in line for "tolerance" now that gay marriage seems to be more accepted then not. Swinging will never be seen in the same light as swinging will always be seen as a threat to some.

 

Poly is still under the "love" umbrella, while swinging is the sex. This rocks a lot of people at the insecurity level.

 

That was pretty much Dr. Ziggy's thoughts, as well.

[sfcuties 66]

JustAskJulie said:

… the only problem is that the only way the terms make things easier is if EVERYONE agrees on the definitions.

 

Which we all know is never going to happen.

 

To summarize what I wrote on the blog:

- Labels are a tool for communication and identification, not to "define".

- Labels are fluid

- Nobody agrees on most labels

- People pick their own, and we should respect them where possible

- "Progressive" sounds political, but everything around sex can be considered political these days.

- LoTSS never meant to demean anybody with their self-assigned labels

 

Ok? Now, lets hug it all out!

[sfcuties 66]

My wife and I were like "What is she talking about and WTH is "progressive swinging"!?!?

 

From the context of the earlier conversation with them we guessed that she meant, "Well, it seems like you two don't want to have an individual relationship with us one-on-one, so you must not be progressive like we are!"

 

Can I propose a (IMHO most likely) explanation here?

Maybe they are slightly loony? Or at least on a totally different page then where you are at.

 

In any case, just avoid them and consider yourselves lucky to have dodged the drama-bullet.

 

See, the term does have it's uses!

[Guy1964 177]

I think the term is sufficiently vague as to be useless. It's kind of like "evangelical christian." It means what you want it to mean. Let's face it, the term "swinger" includes people who have occasional soft-swap all the way up.