Anybody else have issues with equality or same speed issues?

[NYFlirts 158]

We've been swinging for only about 9 months. We've had our ups and downs, but generally everything has been great and we've met a log of amazing people.

 

We've realized that two rules solve 99% of our problems:

 

1) We always put each other first

2) We progress with others in the same speed

 

The latter is the one that I have the biggest issue with. My wife is super hot and I just can't compete. She's also a very giving person, LOVES attention, and loves to make people feel good. That means she's not really picky with the guys she's with... as long as they are friendly and aren't physically repulsive, she's game. On the flip side, since I've a bit more self-conscious and am SUPER paranoid about being "that guy" who's too pushy / aggressive, I very rarely make the first move with the opposite sex.

 

So, here's the problem: We meet a couple, the guy goes after my wife and she usually gladly receives it. On the other hand, I'm friendly and gregarious when it comes to conversation and hanging out, but kinda freeze up with making the first sexual move with the girl. It doesn't help that many (most?) girls want / expect the guy to make the first move. My fear of rejection and looking like a creeper keeps me from doing much if the girl isn't making obvious signs she wants it.

 

Well, what ends up happening is that the guy and my wife are often getting their engines going while me and the girl are hanging out... or worse, the girl is doing stuff with them while I sit on my hands.

 

I start to feel like she's going faster than I am, and start to get a little jealous and upset when I feel like I'm the third wheel. Fortunately I know my wife loves me and she's usually pretty good at keeping things from progressing too much ahead of me since that's a big rule and she knows it's an issue for me.

 

We've also found that the guys will start texting her, expressing how much they like her, how wonderful she was, how badly they want her again, etc. while the communication lines between me and the female are dead silent. When I see those texts my blood boils a little bit, and even though I wish it didn't, it does.

 

Fortunately we've had lots of experiences where the hot wife is into me and we have a great time while my wife and my playmate's husband are going at it. In those cases I never have had any concerns or issues about what's going on. Does that just mean I'm a selfish jealous jerk because I have to have equal attention and play?

 

My questions:

 

1) Am I the only that has experienced this?

2) Should I be more assertive with the women?

3) How do I learn to just be ok with her having fun even if I'm often left on the sidelines?

4) or... is it natural and ok, to some degree, for me to want to also be enjoying myself?

5) Any other tips, advice, experiences?

 

We're meeting up with a couple tomorrow night where I know the guy is SUPER into my wife and I have no idea how his wife feels about me and it's kinda stressful. I guess this also brings up the whole question of "How do you feel, what do you do if you think you're on the receiving side of 'Taking one for the team'"?

 

I look forward to your comments!

 

Thanks!!!

[BeStylnIT 114]

You're insecure...

 

Man, I feel for you but I was really glad to hear that you've had mostly positive experiences. I'm curious about how you and your wife got things started. You said you let opposite sex make first move. Did your wife? Also were is the help from your wife? Can't she mention to the other woman that may help set you up. Not suggesting she tell the other wife your afraid of making the first move. But she can word it in a way that could make things easier for you I'm sure.

 

Did you say you've been alone while the other three got it on without you F U C K T H A T ! ! !

 

My advice will help if you follow it. Fake it took you make it. If you're not confident the wife is into you then pretend you're confident she is.

[NYFlirts 158]

Thanks for the great reply!

 

I guess I should be more clear about not making the first move. I'm definitely not shy and have no problem putting myself out there if I feel there is a bit of a connection with the girl... eye contact, some light touching, good conversation, etc. What I've found is that girls are often more passive than guys. It's usually SUPER easy for a girl to tell if a guy is or isn't into her, but I've found that it's hard to know if girls are into guys. Heck, case in point: We've been with bi-girls where my can't even decipher if the girl is into her until she finds the girl sucking on her nipples... "oh, I guess you like me."

 

My wife's been helpful and supportive, but I also don't want her to have to intervene in my defense (offense?)? Maybe it's a male pride thing, but I want the girl to want me on her own... not be persuaded.

 

Regarding other three playing without me: It's not been that overt, but here's an example: The 4 of us are hanging out on a long bench with the guys on the outside, girls in the middle. The girls are going at it and after a few minutes the other guy starts to paw my wife... and she LOVES the attention & starts moaning from the attention from the girl and the guy. My wife leans over and starts giving the guy some attention. I take this as my que and reach over and start caressing the woman and... nothing. She just keeps doing stuff with my wife and the other guy. Maybe she's lost in the moment? Maybe she's waiting for me to be more assertive, maybe she's just not interested? What I do know is I'm not interested in being aggressive to the point that the girl is totally pissed off.

 

So, what to do in this situation? Sit there and watch? Cop a feel as opportunity permits? Hint to the wife that things aren't moving at the same speed, which requires that she pull back and out of the moment?

[angelkin 1,326]

While your wife may enjoy the attention a couple with a bi wife may give her, this isn't a sport for just one of you. If I may be so bold, before it gets to the wives playing part, maybe you should ensure that your new friends are in this for a full-swap experience. It surprised me that many couples seek another lady so intently that they are often willing to meet with a couple if they feel they can push the husband out of the foursome and turn it into a threesome...

 

That being said, I think BeStylinIt has a good point, fake it (the confidence) until you can get some interest out of the other wife...if that doesn't happen, you should stop what's going on and find new friends. I know, you want your wife to enjoy herself, but it seems this is a reoccuring theme, right? She needs to be cognizant of your feelings and ensure you are enjoying yourself too - that street runs both ways.

 

I think your assumption about women knowing when anyone is "into" them is incorrect. We struggle with knowing if the interest is there too. I think that asking straight out "are you into a foursome, how about we get a room?" is completely appropriate.

[losAmantes 318]

What you're experiencing is common. You're at the crossroads and have to decide if you're going to accept it or not. Your problem is that you seem to give a shit how the other wife feels about you. Don't be a pussy and make it clear that if you're going to let the dude have the honor of fucking your wife, you're going to fuck his, it's a package deal. If his wife finds you hideous and says no, just walk away. The biggest newbie mistake is to let swinging get personal or developing "feelings" for playmates. Swinging is NSA sex on your terms, nothing more, nothing less.

[Greg & Sheryl 368]

NYFlirts said:

Am I the only that has experienced this?

 

Certainly not. This situation is precisely why the move-at-the-speed-of-the-slower-partner rule exists.

 

 

Quote

Should I be more assertive with the women?

 

Yes. Somehow, you need to overcome your fear of rejection. Confidence is sexy, so if you approach this situation with a confident attitude, you'll find that many ladies will be quite willing to play with you. If you're concerned about coming across as "pushy," remember that pushiness generally means not taking "no" for an answer. Rejection does happen in the lifestyle, so when it happens, you simply need to accept it and not take it personally. If one lady is not interested, another one will be, so just move on to the next potential playmate.

 

 

Quote

How do I learn to just be OK with her having fun even if I'm often left on the sidelines, or, is it natural and OK, to some degree, for me to want to also be enjoying myself?

 

It's perfectly natural to want some fun of your own. However, while you don't need to accept sitting on the sidelines as the natural order of things, there may be an occasional party in which you don't get paired up. It sounds as if you two occasionally act as free agents at swing parties, which is precisely the way we play, so we can tell you from experience that this will sometimes happen. Don't sweat it. There's always the next party.

 

 

Quote

Any other tips, advice, experiences?

 

If the "free agent" strategy isn't working for you, then consider exclusively playing together as a couple. If you're worried about being on the receiving end of a lady taking one for the team...well, maybe you're not giving yourself enough credit. It's possible that the other lady really is into you but just not verbalizing it, so you won't know until you actually play. You might be surprised. But if your fear is actually confirmed, then don't play with that couple again. There's always another couple to play with.

[mauijanedoe 1,414]

So, here's the problem: We meet a couple, the guy goes after my wife and she usually gladly receives it. On the other hand, I'm friendly and gregarious when it comes to conversation and hanging out, but kinda freeze up with making the first sexual move with the girl. It doesn't help that many (most?) girls want / expect the guy to make the first move. My fear of rejection and looking like a creeper keeps me from doing much if the girl isn't making obvious signs she wants it.

 

I apologize, but I'm far less interested in your actual questions than I am in this. It's lovely that you're friendly and gregarious, but if I understand you correctly you are being those things with women whose partners are assertive men, which means assertiveness is most likely their norm. It is also even more likely, given the assertiveness of their partners, that they are responders rather than initiators. If either of those things are true, how do they know you're interested in them and what are you doing that would entice them to signal their own interest?

 

You might take the tack of telling women that your fear of rejection and of being a creeper makes you reluctant to make the first move, but that you are attracted to them. Alternatively, you and your wife might start looking for playmates where the man is as non-assertive as you, increasing the likelihood that his partner will be more forthcoming about her interest in the absence of cues from you. Also, it's possible to do some work around your own fears and reduce the noise to a background hum instead of its currently limiting roar. Rejection is, after all, just one person saying "no," and why on earth would that bother you when your wife tells you "yes" every single day?

[cpleply 15]

I (Mr Cuple) have the same problem. I am not assertive and have not had self confidence with women my entire life. Mrs Cuple and I have joked about it and it is part of our profile, she really does call me a box of rocks when it comes to women. Joking about it actually helps, we were talking about it with the last couple we met and the other woman leaned over and said "I am a sure thing" I was just fine from that point on....how bout that. There is nothing wrong with honesty, dont let male pride stand in the way of fun.

 

In my opinion......you are in this as a couple. If she sees things are not starting well for you, she should make a move on you. If the other woman has any interest in you, she will jump in and take over at some point.

[NYFlirts 158]

Wow, y'all are brilliant!!! Thanks for the great replies and insights!

 

 

If you're concerned about coming across as "pushy," remember that pushiness generally means not taking "no" for an answer.

 

Hmm... very interesting point! I think my problem is that I'm so use to an environment where if the girl isn't fawning all over me, then she's not interested. I guess I should adjust my perception a bit and be comfortable going until I get a "no"... and then of course respecting that fully if it happens.

 

If you're worried about being on the receiving end of a lady taking one for the team...well, maybe you're not giving yourself enough credit. It's possible that the other lady really is into you but just not verbalizing it, so you won't know until you actually play. You might be surprised.

 

Honestly, that's definitely happened a few times with both my wife and I. We've both VERY vocally expressive of our feelings and outwardly expressive of how we feel. We want people to feel good about themselves and confident in how we feel about them. Unfortunately we've found that some others definitely aren't this way and you pretty much have to directly ask, "Do you like what I'm doing right now?"... and were it not for the surprise response "GOD YES, DON'T STOP!!" we wouldn't have had any idea.

 

Don't be a pussy and make it clear that if you're going to let the dude have the honor of fucking your wife, you're going to fuck his, it's a package deal. If his wife finds you hideous and says no, just walk away.

 

HAHAHA... LOVE the directness of your reply! I think this is my new mantra!

 

If I may be so bold, before it gets to the wives playing part, maybe you should ensure that your new friends are in this for a full-swap experience.

 

That's a good point to remember. For most of our situations we've found the people on a lifestyle site and know in advance what they are looking for by either reading their profile or hearing stories /seeing pics of the girl with other guys.

 

If either of those things are true, how do they know you're interested in them and what are you doing that would entice them to signal their own interest?

 

Good question, and actually the same thing my wife has said a few times. I realize one problem is that some of the girls are CRAZY hot and I make the mistake a lot of guys in / out of the lifestyle make and assume that the girls already know that every guy would give a nut to have sex with them. Added on top of that, I figure if I'm making eye contact, gently touching arms / shoulders during conversations, etc. that they've GOT to know that I'm into them.... don't they?

 

Joking about it actually helps, we were talking about it with the last couple we met and the other woman leaned over and said "I am a sure thing" I was just fine from that point on....how bout that.

 

Great story! That's happened to me a couple times recently and it's been a boost to the ego. One night my wife and I were with a couple and the girl was with her guy rubbing him and I started getting pretty turned on. I said, "Ok, this is too hot and I'm gonna need to F somebody (meaning my wife or her or whomever)!" Immediately the girl stuck out her index finger and vigorously started pointing to herself... that was a great feeling and I loved having my way with her!

[slevin 1,374]

Added on top of that, I figure if I'm making eye contact, gently touching arms / shoulders during conversations, etc. that they've GOT to know that I'm into them.... don't they?

 

It doesn't always matter if they know you're interested. Knowing that doesn't stop them from wanting you to make the first move, or be assertive (if that is what they're looking for).

[JustAskJulie 2,595]

NYFlirts said:

My questions:

 

1) Am I the only that has experienced this?

2) Should I be more assertive with the women?

3) How do I learn to just be ok with her having fun even if I'm often left on the sidelines?

4) or... is it natural and ok, to some degree, for me to want to also be enjoying myself?

5) Any other tips, advice, experiences?

 

I actually sent this thread to Pet (and I'm hoping he comes and responds) because when I read the first couple of paragraphs it sounded just like him. This is something he's been working on since we started, the ability to be more aggressive with women he is interested in, from just approaching women at clubs to initiating any kind of action. I often tell women we are talking to that if they are into him show him. He likes aggressive women, mainly because he feels like he really needs to know that they are into him, rather than wonder, or play games trying to get their attention.

 

You probably should be more assertive with women. Women are trained to be demure, or coy or play games, or whatever. Very few are like me and willing to make the moves to get things going. If you are interested let them know. If you want to get something started, get it started. If you aren't sure where they stand, ask them.

 

Don't be left on the sidelines. If you play as a couple, play as a couple. If she's leaving you out then you need to talk to her about it. If you play separately then perhaps you should reconsider that, as it doesn't sound like something you are comfortable with. It is completely natural for you to want to enjoy yourself too.

 

What are your actual rules for swinging as a couple? Perhaps they need to be revisited to ensure that they are set so that you are BOTH comfortable.

[mauijanedoe 1,414]

Good question, and actually the same thing my wife has said a few times. I realize one problem is that some of the girls are CRAZY hot and I make the mistake a lot of guys in / out of the lifestyle make and assume that the girls already know that every guy would give a nut to have sex with them. Added on top of that, I figure if I'm making eye contact, gently touching arms / shoulders during conversations, etc. that they've GOT to know that I'm into them.... don't they?

 

No.

 

I've found swingers to be very tactile and there is a lot of touch, even where there isn't necessarily a strong sexual attraction or there's something like an age difference that makes pursuing one a no go.

 

We go to the club maybe every other month. On average, we play with others every second visit. At each trip to the club, we flirt with at least a dozen people and kiss and fondle (or are fondled by) at least half a dozen each. With most of those I'm kissing and/or fondling (or being fondled by), it's friendly with a side of sexual interest. But do you know how I know they want to play with me then, rather than at some future date? They say so. If they don't say so, because I'm too lazy to be an initiator unless I'm so strongly attracted that I want to take their clothes off in the buffet line (and, really, occurrences like that are the reason the phrase "blue moon" was coined), I just assume they already have plans and will get back to me at a later date.

[JustAskJulie 2,595]

Ditto to MauijaneDoe. No matter how hot a woman is, most of us are still somewhat insecure and just like you aren't sure that a woman is into you unless you outright tell her, we often aren't sure about you either.

 

Now, some can go to the other extreme and assume that just because you are talking to them you are obviously into them... but that's not always the case. I'd rather know than assume.

[NYFlirts 158]

What are your actual rules for swinging as a couple? Perhaps they need to be revisited to ensure that they are set so that you are BOTH comfortable.

 

Our two big rules:

 

1) We always put each other first

2) We always play at the same speed

 

... after that, everything else pretty much takes care of itself. We'd maybe even be ok with separate room play (a light rule) if we both felt equally pursued and equally comfortable.

 

95% of the time my wife is great about those rules. Where we run into problems is in cases where the passion kinda makes her brain turn off and/or when she's feeling like she needs to please others (which is something she's always tried to do... something that attracted her to me in the first place). So, in some cases she might "lightly" break both of those rules when she starts giving in to the advances of the guy and forgets to make sure that things with me and the lady are progressing at the same speed.

 

Usually if I remind her to be careful and she can keep her head about her while playing, then we usually have no problems and a fantastic time with couples and/or at parties.

[sunbuckus 3,567]

I agree with Julie...if we aren't approached I assume they aren't attracted. If they approach us, I think they are friendly. If they are touchy, I don't assume anything. 99% of the time we have let the other couple ask us to play. The 1% were the three times we could host at home.

[NYFlirts 158]

Ok, you two (and others) are starting to convince me to be more assertive... but I'm still concerned about crossing the gray area into aggressive. It's just my nature to be friendly, respectful, and not pushy.

 

Someone suggested to keep being assertive until there is a "no thanks" and then stop... because that's the line between assertive and aggressive. Do y'all agree?

 

What if the girl is also trying to be polite and doesn't want to have to say "no thanks" but is hoping that her body language is enough to signal to the guy to cool his jets?

 

We were talking with a couple we saw a few weeks ago and my wife said, "We just weren't sure if your wife was into my husband." to which he said, "Um she was all over him!!" Both my wife and I were flabbergasted at this response, because there's no way in hell anybody would ever consider her behavior to be "all over" me. We're actually wondering if he's just saying that because he wants so badly to get into my wife's pants... as in: "Oh ya, my wife's totally into your husband... let's do this!" (and in the background he's hoping he can talk his wife into getting on board).

 

What I'm learning is that my wife and I either suck at reading body language and/or other people we've been around suck at accurately expressing their feelings via body language.

[JustAskJulie 2,595]

Our two big rules:

 

1) We always put each other first

2) We always play at the same speed

 

... after that, everything else pretty much takes care of itself. We'd maybe even be ok with separate room play (a light rule) if we both felt equally pursued and equally comfortable.

 

95% of the time my wife is great about those rules. Where we run into problems is in cases where the passion kinda makes her brain turn off and/or when she's feeling like she needs to please others (which is something she's always tried to do... something that attracted her to me in the first place). So, in some cases she might "lightly" break both of those rules when she starts giving in to the advances of the guy and forgets to make sure that things with me and the lady are progressing at the same speed.

 

Usually if I remind her to be careful and she can keep her head about her while playing, then we usually have no problems and a fantastic time with couples and/or at parties.

 

Sounds to me like (by my definitions at least) both of your rules are being broken. If someone is feeling uncomfortable to the extent that you are expressing and for the reasons you've expressed it would seem to me that your partner is not putting you first (but you are putting her first by allowing this negative cycle to continue). The reality is that you should both always be putting your relationship first. It shouldn't matter if anyone else is pleased. Putting others ahead of each other or ahead of your relationship is asking for trouble and a fast-track to problems.

 

And by the basis of this question you obviously aren't both moving at the same speed. Sounds like she needs to slow down until you can catch up.

 

I realize, from experience, that it can suck to be the person ready to go and have to constantly be checking on your partner, but until you reach a point where you are as comfortable as she is, it's what needs to be done.

[JustAskJulie 2,595]

Ok, you two (and others) are starting to convince me to be more assertive... but I'm still concerned about crossing the gray area into aggressive. It's just my nature to be friendly, respectful, and not pushy.

 

Someone suggested to keep being assertive until there is a "no thanks" and then stop... because that's the line between assertive and aggressive. Do y'all agree?

 

What if the girl is also trying to be polite and doesn't want to have to say "no thanks" but is hoping that her body language is enough to signal to the guy to cool his jets?

 

We were talking with a couple we saw a few weeks ago and my wife said, "We just weren't sure if your wife was into my husband." to which he said, "Um she was all over him!!" Both my wife and I were flabbergasted at this response, because there's no way in hell anybody would ever consider her behavior to be "all over" me. We're actually wondering if he's just saying that because he wants so badly to get into my wife's pants... as in: "Oh ya, my wife's totally into your husband... let's do this!" (and in the background he's hoping he can talk his wife into getting on board).

 

What I'm learning is that my wife and I either suck at reading body language and/or other people we've been around suck at accurately expressing their feelings via body language.

 

I would trust your wife's judgement on these things. Just as you find it easier to read what a guy is up to than your wife might, she will be able to better see nuances and such from another woman - IF she's paying attention. The problem is that if she's so caught up in getting with the guy that she's not really paying attention to you and the other woman, she can't be relied on either. For that reason, it's important for you to learn how to read ladies and even more so to be more aggressive. I do agree that you can be assertive until she says "no thanks" and that might not be a verbal, it might be here walking away from you, or it might be as simple as her picking up your hand and moving it off of her (both of which I've done to guys I wasn't interested in). If you are really worried about crossing a line, always precede every action with a request for permission "May I touch you?" "would you mind if I....?" Doing this leaves absolutely no room for misunderstanding. Sure there will be some women who will say yes because they don't know how to say No, but they will only do so for so long.

[NYFlirts 158]

Wow Julie, great examples!

 

In fact, as I was reading your comments above, I've realized in all our experiences there was only one time where I got a response like any of those: We were at a club and a guy REALLY wanted my wife. All night long he was staring at her like crazy. In the play room he found his way over to us and started flirting with her. She responded and flirted back and was loving the attention... so much so that she lost sight of what was going on with me and his wife. His wife was just sitting there watching and when I tried to put some moves on her she just looked over and very coldly said, "I'm done." It was early on in our swinging adventures and I remember signaling to my wife that she needed to cool it with the guy since I wasn't interested in just sitting there next to his chilly wife watching.

 

Other than that, I can't think of a single time where I've been told, "No thanks" or had my hand removed, or the girl walk away, or when I asked "May I touch you" that I was told no.

 

hhhmmm... so, I'm starting to think that my problem is that I think I'm expecting too much of an amorous / excited response, and those expectations are too high. Maybe I'm just too use to the response my wife and previous relationships have given me and have been conditioned to expect that if the girl isn't moaning and clamoring to get into my pants that she isn't interested.

 

Going back to the example I gave above where the guy thought his wife wall all over me: I did caress her leg, tits, etc. and at one point she let me kiss her a bit. From my perspective I felt like I was doing all the work and she was just going along for the ride... almost like I was on the receiving end of her taking one for the team.

 

I guess I just can't expect:

 

1) the girls to be as aggressive with me as the guys are being with my wife.

2) that the girls will respond to me the same way that my wife responds to me and other guys (she's VERY outwardly expressive and loves attention. As long as the guy isn't hideous is happy to make him feel good about what he's doing).

[Chicup 41]

I suppose we don't have this issue because we talk to the other couple together as a couple prior to any playing. It takes longer to get naked but I've never been left out in the cold either. Its pretty clear that we are a package deal, AND we get the mood of his wife prior to playing or even getting naked. If she doesn't seem to be interested in me, we can just move on, no issues.

[mauijanedoe 1,414]

hhhmmm... so, I'm starting to think that my problem is that I think I'm expecting too much of an amorous / excited response, and those expectations are too high. Maybe I'm just too use to the response my wife and previous relationships have given me and have been conditioned to expect that if the girl isn't moaning and clamoring to get into my pants that she isn't interested.

 

I agree and I think you're being mislead by the responsiveness of women with whom you were having a relationship versus those who - and this is key - already have partners. Consequently, I suspect you of not understanding that there are a lot of reasons you're not often going to find that crazy chemistry, even in women who want to have sex with you. I also suspect your wife is, perhaps because of her interest in pleasing, not toning it down in the negotiation phase the way other women might, so the behavior she's modeling is your skewed norm in other ways as well.

[NYFlirts 158]

I agree and I think you're being mislead by the responsiveness of women with whom you were having a relationship versus those who - and this is key - already have partners. Consequently, I suspect you of not understanding that there are a lot of reasons you're not often going to find that crazy chemistry, even in women who want to have sex with you. I also suspect your wife is, perhaps because of her interest in pleasing, not toning it down in the negotiation phase the way other women might, so the behavior she's modeling is your skewed norm in other ways as well.

 

HOLY CRAP! Those two points I bolded in your quote: F'IN BRILLIANT! I just read them out-loud to my wife and she totally nodded her head in agreement.

[onewayward 72]

I am relatively new here, but in one of my earlier posts today, I've tried to explain my hubby's predicament and my drive.

 

Like your wife, NYFlirts, I figure I too have a HUGE drive. Mr Wayward can't match it. Plus, he's (like you?) slow.

 

Now this brings me right away to your questions:

 

1) My hubby has certainly experienced this, so you are not alone.

 

2) No. Stick to your STYLE. Mr. Wayward tried to experiment. Ended up BAAD for both of us.

 

3) Sidelines? You've got to figure out why you are in that SITUATION. What pleasure are you deriving from it? Even on the sidelines, there can be a lot of fun.

 

4) There's a lot of fun in enjoying 'in the mind' (visually aided, of course). Mr. Wayward gets his rock-hard going with that.

 

5) Let it flow with the firm/entrenched belief/understanding that she and you should be enjoying every moment of the experience. Don't calibrate the degrees of enjoyment.

 

Humble advice from a vintage swinger wife. Please discount whatever you may wish to.

[ownerspet 506]

First there are similarities to my experiences in this original post as JustAskJulie indicated, but at the same we don't play alone and that playing alone is not both of us present but one just watching. Unless it's strictly girl - girl with the guys just watching. This is because as you've described your feelings, we don't want either of us or either of the couple that we are playing with to feel left out. Because it sucks to be the odd one out. It sounds like below you are referring to them having sex as "getting their engines going." So this would not happen with us as a couple. But if you're referring to making out in a corner separately that is gonna happen. But I think I'm going to assume you mean oral sex or intercourse, things you aren't just going to do on a dance floor at a vanilla club.

 

Well, what ends up happening is that the guy and my wife are often getting their engines going while me and the girl are hanging out... or worse, the girl is doing stuff with them while I sit on my hands.

 

I think rule 2 below sounds like it may be bent a little hear but I don't know all the details, but I'm going on the quote directly above this sentence ending in you "sitting on your hands." You need to ask why are you sitting doing nothing? Did they tell you that you weren't allowed? I hope not because you have bigger issues if that is the case.

 

...two rules solve 99% of our problems:

 

1) We always put each other first

2) We progress with others in the same speed

 

Or the other possibility is that you are too passive as displayed in your sentence that I quoted below. I understand the non-aggressive approach, more than others and it is true that you have to watch women because they can be more subtle in their "I'm in to you" indicators. Sometimes you just have to dance with random people to figure it out. If their having fun dancing with you and not trying get off the dance floor quickly, they might be into you. So you might just have to kiss them on the dance floor. If she's leaning her face in to yours face to face, and you're not sure just peck kiss her lips to test the waters. If you think you got a positive result, try it again with more passion, but read the face and the body language. But if they look like they are smiling and going through the motions, you will know it (so if this is the case be polite, and make up an excuse (need to use the restroom, refresh your drink) just don't advance on someone that appears like they are trying to appease you.) I have issues with being more aggressive at times, but you really need to try more aggressively. Its great if a woman that is attractive is totally out of her shell and aggressively pursuing me, but more often than not, you do have make the first move. To overcome the fear of rejection it has to be agreed by both you and your wife if they as a couple aren't in to both of you, it sounds like you aren't comfortable being the odd one out (which as I inferred earlier, is perfectly natural) and I'm pretty sure that if you're wife was the odd one out, she'd feel the same way (most people don't want to be the odd one out). So if you both agree that neither of you are going to be the odd one out, then it should give you confidence the all play involving you and your wife stops if either one of you are left out. Sitting there doing nothing when your wife and another guy are "getting their engines started", and there is a woman sitting there also with you waiting to see what your first move is, could definitely come across as creepy. Keep the friendly open conversation, but when everything gets started take the engines being started as your cue to "do something already." Take a line from the Nike advertisement, and "Just do It!"

 

I've a bit more self-conscious and am SUPER paranoid about being "that guy" who's too pushy / aggressive, I very rarely make the first move with the opposite sex.

 

So, here's the problem: It doesn't help that many (most?) girls want / expect the guy to make the first move. My fear of rejection and looking like a creeper keeps me from doing much if the girl isn't making obvious signs she wants it.

 

After all she's trying to wait patiently.

 

Fortunately I know my wife loves me and she's usually pretty good at keeping things from progressing too much ahead of me since that's a big rule and she knows it's an issue for me.

 

We've had guys and girls text us before. If they are just being friendly that's fine. If its constant from either one but none from the other half, I think it may make me worry considering we don't play alone (as it sounds that you 2 don't) and it should be NSA sex. But in your case, she may be waiting on you to text her (I'm assuming you are not texting her and possibly expecting her to reach out to you).

 

We've also found that the guys will start texting her, expressing how much they like her, how wonderful she was, how badly they want her again, etc. while the communication lines between me and the female are dead silent. When I see those texts my blood boils a little bit, and even though I wish it didn't, it does.

 

No, you are not a selfish jerk because you want equal attention, those are the rules you have set. Not directly but when you make a rule that says both of you will move at the same speed, it is implied. I think most wives in your position would feel left out also, if they felt like the other guy was not into her, but her husband was going at it with the other woman. However, it appears that you are probably less aggressive than I am, so you need to at least get more aggressive.

 

Fortunately we've had lots of experiences where the hot wife is into me and we have a great time while my wife and my playmate's husband are going at it. In those cases I never have had any concerns or issues about what's going on. Does that just mean I'm a selfish jealous jerk because I have to have equal attention and play?

 

To your question section finally.

 

1) Am I the only that has experienced this?

 

I've experienced guys coming up and hitting on my wife, making out with my wife, and trying to pull the alpha male B. S.

I've experienced guys making out with my wife and not really finding common reciprocal interest from the female half when I'm interested. But my wife knows that it's going nowhere towards playing with them and we don't play separately. You need to make that well known to your wife, and your definition of playing separately sounds like it may be close to my definition. Which does not mean being in the same room while your wife is going at it with one or two other people while you just watch. So if you are uncomfortable, you speak up and everything involving you and your wife ends or something changes right then at that moment.

 

2) Should I be more assertive with the women?

 

Unfortunately you will almost always have more interest or offers aggressively directed towards the female half of a couple from other men than towards a man from another woman, because of simple programming by society. Most men are brought up from day one as a boy to be aggressive go getters. Then, while women are just as capable of being aggressive and anything else they want, society (not me) influences a large majority to not be the aggressive one's when it comes to making the first move in sex. So, yes you should probably be more assertive with women.

 

3) How do I learn to just be ok with her having fun even if I'm often left on the sidelines?

Most people, if they have a problem with something and just accept it, then they are just going along with it but feelings don't just change. You will most likely still feel left out. If you don't fix this, I fear that resentment will build. You have to communicate with your wife, and let her know you can't deal with this. Unless you have a cuckold fetish, I don't think you are happy with the situation, and I'm starting to think you avoid confrontation more than me. This is important, if you let it go on for too long, it's going to be harder to confront the issue. It's not about stopping her fun, it's about both of you being comfortable with the situation.

 

4) or... is it natural and ok, to some degree, for me to want to also be enjoying myself?

 

Allow me to pull out my southern accent "Hell Yeah!" Don't let this issue go, you will regret it. You have to confront your issues (being uncomfortable with her playing while you're on the sideline), and your wife sounds like she will understand. So dude, I think you and your wife can work through this, make no playing separately mean "no playing separately."

 

5) Any other tips, advice, experiences?

 

Topic of Aggression: Make like a tennis shoe and "Just Do It!" I think your nature from what I see expressed here will keep you from being overly aggressive, you have more risk of doing nothing and appearing creepy.

 

Topic of either of you being a 3rd Wheel: Don't make like a tennis shoe. Talk to your wife, define playing separately and don't play separately. You can't handle it, and don't allow anyone to give you the excuse of "well you're in the room, but you aren't doing anything." It does not matter if you are uncomfortable being aggressive (which you need to work one) or if it's the girl really isn't into you (which I don't think you try enough if you aren't making a move sexually). If you are uncomfortable with what's going on with her playing and you not, it should stop. But keep in mind that goes both ways, if you come to a situation when she's on the sideline while you play and she's uncomfortable everything still stops.

 

That's more than my 2 cents.. I could probably be more aggressive myself...and I'm working on it... you need to start working on it....

[NYFlirts 158]

Wow, lots of great insight and comments, thanks so much for all the time and attention ownerspet!

 

Quote

It sounds like below you are referring to them having sex as "getting their engines going."

Actually, I'm talking about any form of my wife "playing" with someone else while I'm solo... whether it be flirting, making out, all the way to sex. With that said, it isn't always the same degree of feelings. For example, sometimes I'm totally fine with her out flirting with guys (same room at a club or party) while I just sit back and enjoy drinks alone, but sometimes I want to be out with her and equally flirting. A lot of it depends on how well she's been doing in the previous weeks / encounters with making me feel like I'm the most important person in her life. If going into a situation I'm feeling confident, then I'm way more inclined to be okay with more.

 

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Unfortunately you will almost always have more interest or offers aggressively directed towards the female half of a couple from other men than towards a man from another woman, because of simple programming by society.

Ya, great point! I can't expect the women in couples to come on to me like the guys are coming on to my wife.

 

Quote

However, it appears that you are probably less aggressive than I am, so you need to at least get more aggressive.

Yup, I'm definitely seeing that and realizing that the lifestyle game is pretty different than the dating game I did 10+ years ago. I'm definitely going to work on being more assertive and be prepared for rejection. I think, as long as my wife's got my back and is firm with the guys that she doesn't play alone, then I'll have the foundation that will allow me to be more assertive.

 

Quote

I'm starting to think you avoid confrontation more than me. This is important, if you let it go on for too long, it's going to be harder to confront the issue.

Actually, I don't avoid confrontation at all... in fact, my wife would say I seek it out. I think the piece that's missing is that I've so hung up on being the "perfect swinger spouse" and have said to myself, "Hey, what's your problem... why can't you just enjoy the fact that your wife is having fun... why are you so selfish!?"

 

So, our assignments / homework:

 

1) I'm going to be more assertive.

2) We're going to be clear with each other as a couple and to others that we never play alone and that we always play at the same speed.

3) I'm not going to feel guilty for wanting to play at the same speed.

[AR1547 131]

While your wife may enjoy the attention a couple with a bi wife may give her, this isn't a sport for just one of you. If I may be so bold, before it gets to the wives playing part, maybe you should ensure that your new friends are in this for a full-swap experience. It surprised me that many couples seek another lady so intently that they are often willing to meet with a couple if they feel they can push the husband out of the foursome and turn it into a threesome....

 

Yes, that exists. One particular upscale club in our area is absolutely polluted with Unicorn Hunter couples who will do that to full swap couples. Or at least it was when we stopped going there 4 years ago.

[Gordo 618]

Ok, you two (and others) are starting to convince me to be more assertive... but I'm still concerned about crossing the gray area into aggressive. It's just my nature to be friendly, respectful, and not pushy.

 

Someone suggested to keep being assertive until there is a "no thanks" and then stop... because that's the line between assertive and aggressive. Do y'all agree?

 

Here's a concrete example of a real life situation for you. We were at a christmas party (vanilla) and there is a couple there my wife knows through business contacts. I"ve never met them & have not talked to them all night long but I'm aware of them as wifey pointed them out. I am around 23 years older than her so the chances of friendship/swinging are probably nil nor am I thinking on those directions.

 

She and the wife are dirty dancing out on the dance floor just as it's ending. I walked up to her in the middle of the dance floor and whispered in her ear. "You two are making me so hot dancing like that how about coming home with us and doing a threesome!" She burst out giggling (good giggling).

 

A few minutes later she and her S.O. come over to say goodbye. She comes in for a hug. I put my hands on her ass and pulled her right in for a grind. She has these AWESOME LIPS that had gotten my attention so I told her I had been fantasizing about her lips all night & she wasn't leaving until I got my christmas kiss. Damned if she didn't lay a few on me while my hands were still getting acquainted with her ass. When we pulled back from the kissing I told her that the two of them dancing had gotten me so hot and I loved her moves and that the "ladies" (boobs) were also making me hot. She looked down at her boobs and said "those things keep getting me into trouble" at which point I said "I'd be happy to help them get you into more".

 

Now some might consider that too pushy or agressive but the fact is if she had expressed even the slightest discomfort I would have backed off. But let's contrast is with a non-agressive approach.

 

"You two are dancing how about we do a threesome sometime"

"How about a kiss goodnight"

"I see you have boobs"

 

The difference is I ABSOLUTELY did love the way she was dancing, her lips were to die for & so was the rest of her body. I absolutely and utterly meant everything I said to her it wasn't phoney or contrived I just told her how she was making me feel. And she reacted positively. Women do LIKE that validation they are sexy.

 

Epilogue:

 

We had gone with another couple and when we got into their car (we're in the back) the other wife turns around looks at me and say "holy shit what happened to you?" There are lipstick marks all over my face.

 

As it turns out the S.O of the girl I was (being so pushy) with had been flirting and hitting on my wife all evening. I didn't know that till she told me later.

 

Oh yeah this girl was so disgusted with my pushy behaviour that she phoned up after christmas and invited us over for dinner...

[Gordo 618]

I might also mention that if you are hanging back a lot of wives might think you're into watching (a lot of guys are) and don't want to push your boundaries.

[NYFlirts 158]

Great story and good motivation! I'll be honest, I felt a little uncomfortable just reading that story... just a twinge of "Well, if he's not super great looking he may get slapped." Again, the combo of 1) Being raised to be so super respectful of women and boundaries, and 2) Seeing the super aggressive and creepy guys at clubs and wondering if they even have a clue that they are creeping women out... both of those things make me pretty damn apprehensive.

[Gordo 618]

I'll be honest, I felt a little uncomfortable just reading that story...

 

Time to bust you out of your comfort zone...LOL

 

The difference is I used sincerety to replace respect. Women are far more emotional than men and (I think) prize sincerety over respect in relations because that is an emotion. Nor would I have pushed it one iota further had she indicated any discomfort at all.