Relationship problems and drama with me and the Mrs and them.

[idon'tknow 15]

We've been with this particular couple for a couple months now. They've been friends of ours since the late 90's but we kinda lost touch a few years ago until earlier this year and then things took a turn towards swinging (my wife was throwing out "polyamory" for a while too, but I've put the kibosh on that, I'm not interested in that).

 

First let me pose a question: have you ever been in a situation where multiple people are involved and you feel like you're the only one who is objectively able to take a step back and look at the big picture and see that there is a problem? I feel like that guy. I feel like ever since we introduced the sexual element into our relationship that a number of things have happened. Here's a few things (in no particular order of importance).

 

1-I feel like most recently our friendship is becoming strained.

-My wife is very frustrated with the female half of the other couple. We are their first (they're our second). Hell, I'm kinda frustrated with her too. She's full of double standards for her husband. She can do all sorts of things, but he really can't. My wife hates that. My wife is kinda lumping me into that "double standard" mix too for some reason, but there was only one thing I did that was remotely close to that and I apologized for that.

-Before the sexual element was introduced we used to go hangout for hours and hours and it felt like minutes... that's gone away. I don't know if it was the sexual element that's ruining that, or if it's just "newness" wearing off.

-Female half feels like a lot of our focus in this is my wife, which is probably true... my wife is a very strong very forceful personality, it's really hard NOT to focus a lot of attention on her.

-He has recently started calling me "quirky" because when we're all together I vacillate, apparently, between being really into his wife and then not. I don't see it but according to my wife "everyone sees it." Is it weird that I feel like when we're together they're all expecting that we "act" like we're married to the other person? Cause that's what I feel like a lot of times. I've told them all before that I'm not interested in that. I'm interested in the friendship, the sexual element is secondary to all that, but I feel that the sexual element is kind of taking over the relationship... that turns me off, big time. My big answer to the vacillation thing is that I'm not married to her, I'm married to my wife. She's who I'd rather be with.

 

2-I feel like my wife and I aren't as close as we were.

-She's angry with me a lot lately, and most of the anger centers around various aspects of our relationship with this other couple. There have been a couple times since we started this with them that my wife has actually gotten physically violent with me when I've tried to point certain things out to her (not a big deal, she's 4'11" and all of about 110 pounds soaking wet, I'm nearly 6' and 190 pounds of a lot of muscle mass with a martial arts background and I can take a hit just fine). Here's how it was a big deal though, in 15 years of being with her she has NEVER been physically violent with me and it scared and scares the shit out of me.

-Our sex life before starting the sexual element with this couple was AMAZING, it sucks now.

-When we started talking about this lifestyle we introduced a level of communication that we have never had before and it was great... it's gone now. I can barely even open my mouth about any of my concerns without her closing off and getting extremely angry with me.

 

3-I feel like the "relationship" that the 3 of them want is overtaking our lives and I feel like a villain because I'm the one who keeps pushing back on that.

4-This isn't fun for me anymore.

 

I don't get turned on by hearing her or seeing her with someone else. I was able to for a while but when they all started talking about "sharing our lives together forever"... yeah, no. That doesn't do anything for me except reinforce the old fears I thought I no longer had about my wife not really wanting to be with me. I told her last night that we need to "change" something. That maybe we can take turns or something. She and him go first, the female half and I go second or whatever... and then we reconnect afterwards. She didn't like that very much... but here's what happens now when I see her or hear her with him... mr. whiskers takes a nose dive. I no longer find it enjoyable. She wants to be able to do MFM with him and I don't think I can do that, not because I don't want to, but because I don't think I can physically do it at this time.

 

I don't want to sleep overnight with someone else. I really just want to share that part of my life with my wife. Could there ever be times when we throw out hall-passes or something where we spend the night occasionally? Yes. But in the last few months we've spent multiple nights either in the same room in a different bed, in a different room, in different places, overnight. Without fail I will wake up at least 2-3 times, my heart pounding, feeling like I'm having a heart attack (just a panic attack) reaching for my wife and finding someone else beside me. I don't like it. I told my wife last night that when we're done I'd like to be able to go back to bed with her... she wasn't happy with that, and I really don't understand why. I told her I kinda liked it how we did it with the first couple we were into, where they come over or we go over, do our thing and then re-connect afterwards with each other. We don't "reconnect" at all with this couple.

 

I feel like once we introduced sexuality into our friendship that that also brought in a lot of drama, a lot of anger and resentment, a lot of confusion, and a lot of line blurring. She has admitted to "falling in love" with them, but has also stated that it's a completely different kind of love than she has for me which is true. I'm not worried about her leaving me for him or them. It breaks down like this: my main focus in all of this is her and my relationship; the other couple's main focus is them and their relationship; my wife's main focus is the relationship between all 4 of us.

 

Edited to add: my wife has admitted that in all of this her biggest fear is that I'll take it all away from her.

[Chicup 41]

Ok my advice is going to be short but I think to the point.

 

Stop seeing this couple for a while. Reconnect with the wife. Let her know your concerns. Things like this is why I think poly is mostly a bad idea because its so rare that everyone will be on the same level. Added the fact that the other man has restrictions just means the other couple isn't really ready either. So their drama becomes your drama, and your drama is becoming their drama.

 

Swinging should bring you closer to your spouse, not the other way around. If its not, you are doing it wrong (you being you as a couple).

[idon'tknow 15]

Stop seeing this couple for a while. Reconnect with the wife. Let her know your concerns.

 

Swinging should bring you closer to your spouse, not the other way around. If its not, you are doing it wrong (you being you as a couple).

 

I've asked everyone to slow down for a bit. I'm getting a quite a bit of flak from my wife and the other female for this. My wife is actually the one who seems to be the most upset by all of this. She's well aware of my concerns. And I've flat out told her that I'm not feeling very close to her and that that needs to change.

[adventurous2831 15]

I dont feel I have enough experience to chime in a great deal here, but one thing I will say is I know how you fee about reconnecting when the fun is done. After one of our experiences, I came out and my wife was snuggled up to the other guy. It gave me a really uneasy feeling. We talked about it, it was no big deal, but at the time it really bugged me. Best of luck to you, I hope you guys can work things out.

[mauijanedoe 1,414]

First let me pose a question: have you ever been in a situation where multiple people are involved and you feel like you're the only one who is objectively able to take a step back and look at the big picture and see that there is a problem?

 

Yep. When it has happened, I've taken an additional step back and looked at my own agenda and whether it is skewing my view. If I can mostly absolve myself of self-interest, then I run with it as if I'm the only sane one.

 

My wife is very frustrated with the female half of the other couple. We are their first (they're our second). Hell, I'm kinda frustrated with her too. She's full of double standards for her husband. She can do all sorts of things, but he really can't. My wife hates that.

 

Clearly you aren't the only one with a problem. it's just that at least two of the others are not reasoning from available data to the conclusion that there is, in fact, a problem. We don't impose unilateral standards on our partners if we're happy and comfy with the situation. The other couple is not dealing with their imbalances, but that doesn't mean it's not evidence of underlying issues.

 

Female half feels like a lot of our focus in this is my wife, which is probably true... my wife is a very strong very forceful personality, it's really hard NOT to focus a lot of attention on her.

 

And your wife probably likes it that way. But, forceful personality or not, only toddlers get to be unconcerned about the feelings of others.

 

She's angry with me a lot lately, and most of the anger centers around various aspects of our relationship with this other couple. There have been a couple times since we started this with them that my wife has actually gotten physically violent with me when I've tried to point certain things out to her (not a big deal, she's 4'11" and all of about 110 pounds soaking wet, I'm nearly 6' and 190 pounds of a lot of muscle mass with a martial arts background and I can take a hit just fine). Here's how it was a big deal though, in 15 years of being with her she has NEVER been physically violent with me and it scared and scares the shit out of me.

 

Scares you but doesn't spur you to any sort of action? Domestic violence, no matter how risible the size difference makes it seem, is a serious issue. Now she's hitting you, which is already dipping a limb into the crazy pool, but what about later, when she gets angrier? One of my relatives battered her much larger husband to death with a household appliance, so the lack of a conventional weapon is not actually a stopper.

 

 

Edited to add: my wife has admitted that in all of this her biggest fear is that I'll take it all away from her.

 

Not that your friendship with this couple is being ruined, not that her marriage is suffering, not that you're not happy, not that you're having panic attacks, not that she's introduced domestic violence into your lives, but that your discomfort will make you insist the four of you stop having sex?

 

Does anything about the above statement give either one of you pause? At all?

[idon'tknow 15]

Not that your friendship with this couple is being ruined, not that her marriage is suffering, not that you're not happy, not that you're having panic attacks, not that she's introduced domestic violence into your lives, but that your discomfort will make you insist the four of you stop having sex?

 

Does anything about the above statement give either one of you pause? At all?

 

It gave me pause a while ago. I've tried to help her see that, but at this point the selfishness of "I've always wanted to do this" keeps getting in the way. The only thing I can do is be around when she hopefully does see it.

[Chicup 41]

You can remind here there are more people out there to have sex with than your current friends.

 

I don't have a good feeling about your situation, but swinging is generally not about just one couple.

[Sensualbicouple 122]

I agree with Chicup's first post. Maybe it's time to step back from this couple and focus on your marriage. If I were in your position OP this is as good a time as any to call a time out until things get sorted. I know you may feel like the villain as you say, but if the couple you are seeing had some understanding and respect for you as a husband and a friend, they would understand that there are quite a few issues here that need to be settled in a calm and collective manner from all four of you. If the friendship is to stand the test of time as is your marriage to your wife, then everyone needs to approach this with maturity and clarity. I hope you get things sorted in time and please update us on how it all goes.

[sunbuckus 3,567]

idon'tknow, I remember you from your first post on the forum (as well as all of your subsequent postings) and maybe it's wrong of me to judge the entire situation based on all of your postings collectively within the last 7 months instead of taking this one unique post on it's own but I'm going to do it anyway. Please feel free to disregard my entire post for that reason.

 

From day one, I remember your stress and anxiety about getting into swinging. Your wife was ready and raring to go but you weren't sure about any of it. Just re-reading your old posts gave me a bit of anxiety thinking about what was going on...and perhaps that's why I remembered your previous postings so well. Your first, second, and third postings, it was pretty clear that everyone who was trying to help you out were saying that you two were not ready for swinging. For me, there's just this glaring fact that she was pushing you into this before you were ready. Whether it was because of lack of open and honest communication, a lack of listening to each others' fears and desires, and/or lack of doing what was best for the relationship, you two forged on to swinging. Fast forward a few months to your next postings and they were about have erectile problems. I'm not a man so I can't say for certain but from what I've heard from my husband and fellow male SB members, it's not just about the physical inner workings of the penis but it's in the mind. You can take ED drugs to help with the problem but it won't do anything unless your mind is ready to let things work. Again, I personally thought this was another sign that you two weren't ready to swing. Next, you talked about your wife wanting a poly relationship with this couple. And currently, now there's relationship problems between you and your wife.

 

Based on your postings alone, which is unfair because it is only one side of the story and could create an incorrect assessment of the situation, but I think your wife is being very selfish. She isn't thinking about you. She isn't thinking about your relationship, your marriage, your life together. She's thinking about what she wants. She isn't considering how her wants, desires, and actions are affecting you and the relationship. She is concerned about what she is losing...and it isn't you that she's afraid of losing. Maybe all of these sexual experiences are fogging her thinking capabilities and making it hard for her to think straight. But she wanted this more than you. She was willing to make you feel guilty for not allowing her to indulge in something "for herself". Swinging, even as a single, isn't just "for yourself"...it's for everyone involved...everyone should have pleasure from it. If someone isn't enjoying it, then something isn't right. She offered hall passes (even though you originally only wanted to play together) to help "alleviate" your ED problems but perhaps it was self-motivated to allow her to continue playing without having to worry about what was going on with you.

 

I really, really, really hate writing this response because I dislike being tough toward someone who isn't here and can't defend herself. For all I know, I'm completely wrong and she has a completely different perspective that would make me sympathize with her. Nonetheless, my advice is the following:

 

1. Stop swinging all together. I still think you aren't ready and your wife needs to realize and understand that. She needs to move at your pace and if she isn't willing to move at your pace then...

 

2. She's not looking out for the best interests in regard to you and your marriage. She's looking out for herself and what she wants. Everyone else be damned if they aren't in line with what she wants.

 

3. You need to think long and hard about the worst case scenario here. Clearly, she wanted this. She is afraid that you will "take all of this away". She's is getting violent and angry about how you feel about pulling away from all of this. You need to think about your safety and your children's safety. If she isn't going to get out of this "me, myself, and I" syndrome, instead of thinking about "me, my husband, my children, and my marriage" then you need to think rationally about your options and what might occur.

 

 

I hope I am wrong about everything I wrote. I want things to turn out well for you, your wife, your family, and your life. But from what I've read of your posts...I'm fearful of what might be if your wife doesn't change her viewpoint on swinging and her priorities concerning you, the family, and your relationship.

[Lionheart72 2,190]

My advice is going to be blunt: Walk away.

[ViSexual 1,008]

I agree with Sunbuckus that you're just not cut out for swinging and were sort of talked into it. It sounds like your wife and both members of the other couple are and they, maybe unintentionally, are gaining up on you. Now you feel the outcast and you feel even more resentful.

 

I think my wife was in your shoes when we were participating. Like you, she enjoyed a lot of the pleasures but before and after, she said it seemed like she was always the one having to say no. And I, and the other couples, were always having to check with her before doing anything, which made everyone uncomfortable.

 

I'd say that you either need to tell your wife that you just aren't interested, like my wife did me..., or try to just accept the situation, enjoy what pleasures you can, and hope that your wife will eventually want to mitigate things too.

 

Sorry but, people are different and swinging is a very different experience for everyone!

[mongo_couple 15]

To me this all sounds like you ppl are trying to somehow have fun without actually specifying what kind of fun you all want. Its pretty childish because you can see where your relationship goes. So, this couple have restrictions, this couple have doublestandarts. Are you ok with that? No? Quit them and dont look back. And between you two. Make a list, honest list of things you want to do, sexual fantasies, desires. Not together but each of you. Sex is egoistic but being honest about it to each other makes a relationship. And then you can peacefully make it right for you. Without manipulation, pushing and driving over each other with tarmac roller. "Fear of you taking it away from her" is clear and in your face blackmale. Sorry, but it is what it is. She sounds like a kid in toy store.

Its not good for you to continue at this moment. Some here say concentrate on marriage, but at the point where you both are its not possible anymore to just quit sexual adventures and pretend that nothing happened. Before continue you should sort things out with what each of you want to do in group sex situations. Most of the time its just so hard to say out loud about desires because of prejudice (just example: wife wants a gangbang! OMG! Husband is turned on by fucking another woman while hes wife just watches. OMG! etc) that its not a bad idea to set up a game - watch some adult movies and just with humor point at situations what turn you on. Jokes make it easier.

In any case if you or she feels that something is not going good, you ore she are not satisfied emotionally - quit! At least for a while and talk every little detail out. Ladies will trow things at me now but western culture women who are really suppressed by double standards (man - a lot of sex - good, women - a lot of sex - slut) when they get to it and can do what they want.. finally!... without getting judged... well, they loose their head and act like a alcoholic in liqueur store where everything is for free. And when a man points this out, she replays - you dont love me!!! Its not actually their fault, its culture, traditions and the way women are raised.

[JB 140]

Wow… I think I am having a poly relationship with mongo couple and sunbuckus… DITTO on both.

[idon'tknow 15]

I really, really, really hate writing this response because I dislike being tough toward someone who isn't here and can't defend herself. For all I know, I'm completely wrong and she has a completely different perspective that would make me sympathize with her. Nonetheless, my advice is the following:

 

1. Stop swinging all together. I still think you aren't ready and your wife needs to realize and understand that. She needs to move at your pace and if she isn't willing to move at your pace then...

 

2. She's not looking out for the best interests in regard to you and your marriage. She's looking out for herself and what she wants. Everyone else be damned if they aren't in line with what she wants.

 

3. You need to think long and hard about the worst case scenario here. Clearly, she wanted this. She is afraid that you will "take all of this away". She's is getting violent and angry about how you feel about pulling away from all of this. You need to think about your safety and your children's safety. If she isn't going to get out of this "me, myself, and I" syndrome, instead of thinking about "me, my husband, my children, and my marriage" then you need to think rationally about your options and what might occur.

 

 

I hope I am wrong about everything I wrote. I want things to turn out well for you, your wife, your family, and your life. But from what I've read of your posts...I'm fearful of what might be if your wife doesn't change her viewpoint on swinging and her priorities concerning you, the family, and your relationship.

 

First of all thank you for paying attention and remembering. That means a lot. We had another melt-down last night. This time however, that other couple was here with the kids just hanging out and having fun (I've been trying to emphasize to all of them that we get back to the friendship thing and put the sexual aspect on hold... for who knows how long). The female half of this couple is a lot like me in the emotions she has about swinging and in general, for the most part she sees things through almost the same exact lens that I do. When the two of them (my wife and her) had a lot to drink and started talking about some of the issues and my wife did that thing she does where she gets really myopic and starts thinking unilaterally the female half got pissed. And instead of backing down (I get tongue tied when my wife gets angry with me... hell, ask me to save someone's life in a crisis situation and I can facilitate a scenario like I was born to it, ask me to make myself clear with my wife when she's pissed at me? not so much) the female half lit into her.

 

It got to a point, after they cooled down, where I was able to share a lot more of my concerns for all of us and what this is doing to our marriage, our friendship and everything. The only problem was that my wife was quite drunk and I'm trying to gauge how much of the "awesome" conversation we all had she actually remembers. Obviously I'm ok putting the sexual stuff on hold, the female half is perfectly fine with it because she's been dealing with a lot of the same emotions that I have, and he's ok with it because he knows what's most important, my wife... not sure yet.

[idon'tknow 15]

How many different ways can one say, "I need a break" and have it be taken a differently than it's meant? A lot apparently. The other couple is fine with it, has been fine with it and says, "take as long as you need and be together." She said she's going to miss the sex, but I can't help that, it's not like I was much in bed there towards the end anyway.

 

My wife on the other hand is still hung up on the sex. "Why does it have to be a complete break? Why do you feel like we need to reconnect? How long is it going to take? What if it's forever? Why are you so insecure?" Stuff like that. It was like talking in a circle. I felt a lot of anger from her, a lot of resentment... and when she said, "You're going to be insecure about this stuff forever" I said, "if that's how you really feel then you need to find someone other than me to do this with."

 

She does a good job making me feel like it's all my fault, which hell, I'm the one who needed a break, and why do I need a break? Because this isn't fun for me right now for various reasons. So it really is my fault. I told her that if our roles were reversed right now and she came to me and said, "I need a break" that I would've looked at her, grabbed her by the hand and said, "we will take a break for as long as you need and we will work on whatever you need to work on" and I wouldn't be angry about it, I wouldn't be resentful.

 

It's hard to reconnect with someone who doesn't really seem like she want to reconnect. We were super close when we started this adventure not that long ago, had ups and downs... this, however, is a low point. This down is affecting our marriage a lot and she's laying the blame in my lap. Regardless, she said, "FINE! We'll take a break. We'll work on whatever you need to work on. We'll 'reconnect' and take however fucking long you want...." It's better than nothing I guess, lol.

[Lionheart72 2,190]

She does a good job making me feel like it's all my fault' date=' which hell, I'm the one who needed a break, and why do I need a break? Because this isn't fun for me right now for various reasons. So it really is my fault.[/quote']

 

Stop right there!

 

No, it is not your fault. Repeat that to yourself: No, it is NOT your fault! Your feelings are legitimate and important. Your feelings are deserving of respect.

 

I don't want to say it's her fault... actually that's not true, I very much want to say it's her fault. From what you are posting, she is the one causing the problems. She is the one not respecting your limits. She is the one pressuring you. She is the one causing a scene and making things even harder than it already is. That lands the blame squarely in her lap. Her refusal to see that, her refusal to make any attempt to meet you even half way, her refusal to REALLY try and reconnect is what will cause this to "take forever."

 

As for it being "better than nothing" ... it is nothing. What you have posted is her offering you nothing but blame and guilt with no real effort on her part to change. And she is the one who needs to change. Until she sees that, there is nothing you can do.

[mauijanedoe 1,414]

She does a good job making me feel like it's all my fault' date=' which hell, I'm the one who needed a break, and why do I need a break? Because this isn't fun for me right now for various reasons. So it really is my fault.[/quote']

 

Yup, it's totally your fault, if by "fault" one means you very properly called a halt to something that really wasn't working for you or for your relationship. So what? The problem isn't your need to take a break, something most of us need at one point or another, the problem is your wife. Swinging, like other high risk activities, really does have the power to scrape off our veneer and show what we're made of. Every time you write about your wife, I think of this:

 

TODDLER’S RULES

1.1- If I want it, it's mine

2- If it's in my hand, it's mine

3- If I can take it away from you, it's mine

4- If I had it a little while ago, it's mine

5- If it's mine, it must never appear to be yours in any way

6- If we are building something together, all the pieces are mine

7- If it just looks like mine, it's mine

8- If I think it's mine, it's mine

9- If I give it to you and change my mind later, it's mine

10- Once it's mine it will never belong to anyone else, no matter what

 

Non-empathetic behavior is normal in two year olds, but it's a little worrisome if it's the primary mode in a six year old. Your wife is a long way past six and you are too old to be guilted by a toddler because of some sensible life choices.

[XploreFun 26]

Mate,

 

I don't really know much about swinging that is why I am on this forum. I however can see a few things here clear as day.

 

Your wife looks to be 'feeling' more than thinking here. Most likely, even without being cognisant, she feels an emotional bond that she values with the other couple is under threat. That bond is probably perceived as one of her support structures. We naturally will defend our support structures without thought. You will get primal responses to this, such as violence.

 

You clearly value your relationship with your wife and want this to get better. I recommend that you work towards assisting your wife to break the relationship with these people.

 

She needs to break it or she will feel it has been taken from her. I think the way forward may be somewhat counter intuitive. If you want to alter or remove someone's support structure without a disaster you need to move other support in place before you start tearing it down.

 

I think you need to engage her on what she is getting from this relationship and let her feel she has other options that can feel just as good for her. Then start to move away from this other couple, breaking communication when the time as right.

 

You could just try and sit down and have a good open discussion but if she is not in the right space to receive it could go the wrong way. Additionally the other couple may be giving her encouragement which an open discussion will most likely not counter as it will be ongoing.

 

Best of luck whatever you do.

[junglecouple 127]

hmm, are you sure it's better than nothing? Seems to be a "WHATEVER" type response, 'Talk to the Hand", which is NOT better than nothing.. at least not in our world.

[Sensualbicouple 122]

You were right to call a break. And you should stand steadfast in that decision as I believe you will. Your wife's attitude is of concern though. One thing in this LS is that everyone is responsible for their ability to say yes as is their ability to say no. It is also the responsibility if everyone to know when it's time to step back and to know what is important for them, but not at the cost of another persons' relationship or their well being. Your wife is not being responsible because she is acting like a spoiled child. Thankfully, you are making a sound decision that is in the best interests of your relationship as well as for yourself and I hope, after some time away from this other couple, your wife will eventually see the benefit in taking a break. After all, the LS is not the place to lose your head like a silly little school girl...this is real life stuff with real people and real relationships. It should be fun, not a chore. And it should enhance our lives, not bring them crashing down into ruins. Best of luck with everything, the break will be hard for everyone, but a necessary one judging everything that has happened so far and what has been felt and said. Take care of yourself and your relationship.

[slevin 1,374]

I agree that the way she responded to taking a break isn't the best, but it's a start. I really recommend that you both find a relationship counselor or therapist that you can talk with. You need to find a way to get back to communicating, and sometimes having that third party there can help facilitate that.

[idon'tknow 15]

Thank you for the replies. I was at work yesterday and my wife sent me a message via text: "I love you so much. I would never do anything to hurt you or jeopardize our marriage... I'll work on this." We both have things we need to work on and will work on. One of the most surprising things for me in all of this has been her raw response to my hang ups and issues. It has been very much what Mauijanedoe threw out, selfish and toddler like. That's never been her, ever.

 

But maybe that's part of the problem. Since I met that little woman on March 12 1998 (at 7pm-ish) her life has been one big "I'm never going to do things for myself... I live to make everyone else happy. I don't care about me." And since that night I've done my darnedest to make sure she felt safe enough that she could in fact do things for herself, buy things for herself, live for herself and be a strong independent kick-ass woman.

 

the LS is not the place to lose your head like a silly little school girl...this is real life stuff with real people and real relationships. It should be fun, not a chore. And it should enhance our lives, not bring them crashing down into ruins.

 

Agreed. That's what I've been telling everyone involved. The other couple is totally on board and is more than happy to give us the space we need. I've been exploring options for marital counseling. She will likely say, "I don't feel like we need it" but that's just because that's how she is, and I'll say, "whether we need it or not, it will be beneficial for both of us."

[Sensualbicouple 122]

I wish you luck OP....in time and with an unbiased third person like a counsellor, you will both look at things differently, communicate differently if need be and see it in a whole new light with more clarity and a fresh perspective for the future. I feel for you and I also understand to a certain degree where your wife sits in this. I hope she agrees to see a counsellor with you if you do end up choosing that route. Please keep us all updated! :-)

[Gordo 618]

I think the behaviour your wife is exhibiting is indicative of a serious emotional attachment to the other male. Whether or not you sense it and it is driving your discomfort I am willing to be the other female is sensing it and that is why she is having the same thoughts as you.

 

I went back and had a look at some of your old posts and Sunbuckus is right in saying you are not ready for this and I suspect you never will be.

 

If swinging isn't a joint pleasure it's just an affair given a polite covering.

[JustAskJulie 2,595]

I'm sorry you are going through this and I wish you luck. I can't add much to the great responses you've already received. However, I did want to say that if you are having trouble expressing yourself to your wife when she's angry. Try writing down your thoughts to her. Share with her what you've shared her, about how her responses have hurt you and how those are not "HER" at least not the version of her you've always known and loved. Let her know that you want her back, you want your wife back. Write her a good long letter expressing these things. Perhaps even direct her to read what you've shared here and the responses of others to allow her another perspective.

[sunbuckus 3,567]

idon'tknow, how are things? Has anything changed with your wife and the other couple?

[idon'tknow 15]

I'm sorry you are going through this and I wish you luck. I can't add much to the great responses you've already received. However, I did want to say that if you are having trouble expressing yourself to your wife when she's angry. Try writing down your thoughts to her. Share with her what you've shared her, about how her responses have hurt you and how those are not "HER" at least not the version of her you've always known and loved. Let her know that you want her back, you want your wife back. Write her a good long letter expressing these things. Perhaps even direct her to read what you've shared here and the responses of others to allow her another perspective.

 

I've done this multiple times. It doesn't work. Either I'm really really shitty at expressing myself, or she just doesn't care.

 

idon'tknow, how are things? Has anything changed with your wife and the other couple?

 

yes and no.... more no than yes though. Tonight's another low. On the upside I have just discovered, thanks to a lengthy cooling down period of walking around outside, that we now live in a beautiful neighborhood where the stars shine bright at night and you can hear the deer roaming around in the woods in the dark. It's quite peaceful. On the downside... even though she said she fine with the break... she's not as she so aptly demonstrated while we went out to eat and hang with the other couple (we still do friend things with them)... and said "they really want to swap for the night" asked if I wanted to swap for the night. Obviously I said no. And it went downhill from there.

 

My heart hurts. I feel like the harder I try to work on things the worse they get.

[mauijanedoe 1,414]

On the downside... even though she said she fine with the break... she's not as she so aptly demonstrated while we went out to eat and hang with the other couple (we still do friend things with them)... and said "they really want to swap for the night" asked if I wanted to swap for the night. Obviously I said no. And it went downhill from there.

 

My heart hurts. I feel like the harder I try to work on things the worse they get.

 

So, clearly, in the same way that you can't be a little addicted or a little pregnant, you need to stop doing friend things with the other couple, because it just interferes with what little stability you've managed to create.

 

I'm sorry you're going through this, but I do wonder if your loving view of your wife is interfering with an accurate assessment of the situation. In any case, relationships cannot be held up unilaterally for very long. Have you found a therapist?

[Lionheart72 2,190]

yes and no.... more no than yes though. Tonight's another low. On the upside I have just discovered, thanks to a lengthy cooling down period of walking around outside, that we now live in a beautiful neighborhood where the stars shine bright at night and you can hear the deer roaming around in the woods in the dark. It's quite peaceful. On the downside... even though she said she fine with the break... she's not as she so aptly demonstrated while we went out to eat and hang with the other couple (we still do friend things with them)... and said "they really want to swap for the night" asked if I wanted to swap for the night. Obviously I said no. And it went downhill from there.

 

My heart hurts. I feel like the harder I try to work on things the worse they get.

 

That's because, for the sounds of it, you are the only one trying.

[sunbuckus 3,567]

Either she is agreeing with you about taking a break at that moment but then can't maintain the resolve when the moment is over or she is just paying you lip service to make it seem like she's on board with taking a break. Either way, as maui suggested, you two should stop having any contact with this couple. You can just let them know that you two need to focus on your marital relationship right now without any distractions. However, even though you say that they are "on board" about taking a break...they still offered to swap! It sounds like they aren't really listening either.

 

A complete stop on anything related to swinging needs to occur. No talking to other couples that you've met. No talking to other couples that you've swapped. No talking to swing couples that you're friends with. No browsing swing hook-up sites. And certainly no meeting with swing couples, even if it's for drinks or to "get the families together". Your wife is clearly not getting the idea and this was the sort of thing that I was afraid might happen when I wrote my first response to you thread. To all of us, it appears that she is doing one or several of the following:

 

1. Not listening.

2. Not caring about your marital relationship.

3. Has deep feelings for the other couple (or possibly the husband).

4. Behaving that she's the only one that should be getting what she wants, no matter what others want or feel.

5. Being completely selfish.

6. Not acting or thinking like an adult.

7. She's not seeing the big picture.

8. Not thinking about you or your feelings at all.

9. Wants to have her cake and eat it all.

10. Not admitting that she's played a part in how the situation has unfolded.

11. And many other things....

 

To be honest, some of the things you wrote that your wife said make me question her love and devotion to you as well as her level of maturity. Is she still being violent toward you? I know this is difficult but if she escalates in being violent toward you and her feelings of being denied something that she feels she should have, then it can get very dangerous for you. And even if she has stopped being violent, you can only do so much with someone that doesn't want to listen and work on focusing on the relationship. If they've checked out...then you can't reel them back in unless they want to be.

 

From your first post, it sounded like this was all her idea and she moved at a fast pace...do you think there might have been someone that she had in mind from the beginning? Couples who start their swinging adventure together usually go at the same pace because they aren't sure where to begin or what to do. But if she was moving at an accelerated pace and was the first to bring it up, maybe she was doing her own "research" without you. This is just a theory though, so I could be wrong.

 

Do you think you would be able to bring her here to the forum to see what you've written and for her to see how all of us sees the situation? Perhaps she can lend her voice to the matter or gain insight from the advice you've been given.

[Gordo 618]

Sun has given a great list of reasons but I am going to focus on #3. She is acting like someone in love or serious lust.

 

In your first post you said she admitted falling in love with "them". But she is pissed at the other female. That is a sign of jealousy not "love". She wants to spend the night with him, not you. She wants to swap no matter who gets pissed off. Her feelings, when denied, erupt in violence or anger again a sign of jealousy or frustrated feelings.

 

You said the other female lit into her in a drunken conversation but you don't really say what the discussion was. Could you share the content. When people get drunk inhibitions disappear and the conversation might have been closer to the truth than anything else she is telling you.

[2fitfunsters 32]

It sounds like she is haning an affair in plain sight and doesn't care who gets hurt, as long as her desires and demands are met. This couple says the understand and respect that you need to stop to work on your marriage, and then they ask you to swap?! Something is terribly wrong with the three of them. They don't care about you or your feelings and boundaries.

 

Your wife is placating you and is being very dishonest with you.

[XploreFun 26]

It sounds like she is haning an affair in plain sight and doesn't care who gets hurt...

 

I am sorry to say that I think 2fitfunsters is right. It's the news you need to hear but understandably don't want to. Someone I trust and respect once had to break news of similar to me and I can recall finding it almost impossible to believe even though it was plain to everyone but me.

 

If you want any chance of rescuing this you need to find a way to get your wife to stop communicating with these people.

 

She will find it tough so it will help if they are not encouraging her. I once had a guy hell bent on trying to have an affair with my Mrs. I had a conversation with the guy where I explained that messing with the most important thing in the world to me could be guaranteed to get a strong and emotional response. It was basically sharing plain fact. That put and end to his advances. I wouldn't encourage you to do anything silly it will make things much worse if you do. There is nothing wrong with however with showing you will not be a door mat. All the counselling in the world won't help if these other people are working against you in the background. These days the world favours the well considered thoughtful sensitive man who reasons his way through things. That's all good if everyone else is playing the same game. They are not going to emotionally disengage from your wife unless an incentive exists for them to do so. Why would they?

 

It could be argued that what they do is there business and its up to your wife to show her love for you by disengaging from them. Well here is my thoughts on that.. People make mistakes and do stuff they later regret. When emotions are involved rational thought goes out the window. If she does not have a history of this behaviour and you love her then overcoming this is something that may well be worth fighting for. At the very least I would be letting the choice of your relationship be something that is between just you and your wife. Not a third party.

 

Perhaps a few days away to get your thoughts together and disconnecting from sources of influence like this site might help you make your choices.

[idon'tknow 15]

It's been one huge long roller-coaster with a lot of ups and a lot of downs. Because I wanted to maintain my marriage (and because after 15 years of being with her I like to think I know how she is) I decided to just kinda move forward with the relationship with the other couple and try to slowly change the dynamic behind the scenes.

 

The 4 of us hit an all time low last week when my wife and I informed the female that we were planning on hanging out with the first couple with got together with. Holy jealousness, even though we weren't ever planning on playing with them. We all talked, long story, yada yada yada, but at one point the other female looked at me and said, "I gave you my heart. Don't break it." And it was all I could do to not get up and leave and quit the entire thing right there because I felt "responsible" for her happiness on top of my wife's. I didn't though. And this opened up an opportunity for me a couple days later.

 

See part of the problem with me and my wife is that I can't share my feelings in front of her. She gets mad, she doesn't understand them, and even if its the same thing being said by everyone else she will look at me and tell me to shush or shake her head in disappointment at me. It's weird, the other couple sees it too, and they don't understand it. I talked to my wife about it and she said I was over-reacting, which I wasn't but whatever, I talked to my sister about it (the pure swinger) and she said, "drop 'em. Walk away." Then the other other female (the first couple we played with) had a nice long chat with this female about things. Then a couple days later the female and I were texting about it and I told her how I felt that night, what I liked about this first couple, and what I wanted (stuff I've been saying since day one) she said, "we need to talk."

 

I walked in, she looked at me and said, "I'm doing this wrong. You want a swinging relationship. You want the friendship and camaraderie. You don't want the deep emotional stuff. And when I look back on it you've been saying this since we first got together and started talking about it." She and I had a good long conversation. Her husband was there for most of it. They're on my side of things. Swinging, but exclusiveness (till my wife gets tired of it--which I warned them she will). The friendship was suffering and I told them that, my relationship with my wife was suffering and I told them that. My wife is still in that point of being so "excited about something new" that her blinders are still on. This is how she does things. Eventually the excitement wears off and she can see things more clearly.

 

My wife and I are hitting counseling next week. I hated that I had to talk to this other couple without my wife there, but since I can't share anything in front of her without her getting pissed off at me I felt I was justified in not including her.

[Lionheart72 2,190]

See part of the problem with me and my wife is that I can't share my feelings in front of her.

 

I just want to point out the obvious: this is a huge problem. Swinging absolutely requires being able to be honest with your partner about your feelings.

[wingsonabris 19]

I wish you the very best of luck in this situation my man. Thank you for sharing! I hope that this all works out for you.

I would wager that if you both feel that your marriage is still the core of everything, you and your wife will always triumph - regardless of all the noise around you.

 

Would your wife be mad if you shared your feelings about how much you sincerely love her and your family? Of course she wouldn't! She only doesn't like sharing "feelings" for another woman. Hell, I wouldn't blame her a bit about that.

 

It sounds as if this fifth wheel girl y'all have hanging around is using some dirty home wrecker words ("I gave you my heart. Don't break it.")

I think the sister has the answer to your problem here... no counselors needed. Just drop this chick. She can go giving away hearts somewhere else.

 

Anyone want to second my opinion?

[sunbuckus 3,567]

Lionheart72 said:

See part of the problem with me and my wife is that I can't share my feelings in front of her.

 

I just want to point out the obvious: this is a huge problem. Swinging absolutely requires being able to be honest with your partner about your feelings.

 

Agreed, although, this is important for all couples to achieve in order to have a long relationship.

 

 

*sigh* Oh, Idon'tknow. The combination of how your wife is behaving along with your willingness to continue seeing this other couple (and other couples) concerns me. From my perspective, if your wife doesn't come around and start behaving and thinking like a wife and 50% of the relationship, this will not end well. Time and time again, it has been clear that you weren't ready for swinging. Yet, you two continued on, then there were more problems, more "digging", rinse and repeat.

 

“Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.”

 

I understand that you want things to change and I really hope that counseling will help...but as I've said on the forum before, it takes both persons in the relationship to make it work. One person can't shoulder the entire relationship. As far as I see it, the turning point in how all of this ends up relies on if your wife sees that there needs to be a change and is willing to make that change. Other than that, if she's happy with the current status quo, you're going to continue to stay unhappy in this relationship.

 

Throughout your several threads on the forum, you always state that the other couple agrees with you. How likely would it be that they agree with you to stop seeing each other completely? No email. No calls. No texting. No getting together. End of friendship. End of friendship/getting together (swinging and vanilla) for all the couples you two have met in the LS. This is the only way I can see that might result in taking those blinders off that your wife is wearing.

 

Which ever way you two go, I can guarantee that it is going to get worse. If your wife makes a 180, there will be a dark period of time before that 180 change when she will feel like she's being "punished" for having all of her playthings taken away. If you continue seeing these other couples, there will most certainly be a further degradation in your marriage.

 

I don't like being so negative and being all doom-and-gloom but given what I've seen from your previous threads, your writings about how you can't be honest with your wife without her getting angry, and the overall behavior that your wife has exhibited, I can't see this getting any better without your wife's change of heart and mind.

[idon'tknow 15]

I don't like being so negative and being all doom-and-gloom but given what I've seen from your previous threads, your writings about how you can't be honest with your wife without her getting angry, and the overall behavior that your wife has exhibited, I can't see this getting any better without your wife's change of heart and mind.

 

I don't know what else to do. If I say to her, "we're done with them" the shit will hit the fan. I don't know how to change it. For all I know we might be done anyway and I'm just trying to hold the pieces together. She can't see it. She can't see her behavior. She can't see how much she hurts me. My feelings, my opinions, everything about me doesn't matter to her right now. She blames me for all the problems we've been having and my perspective doesn't matter.

 

Eventually the excitement will wear off. It always has with other things, I see no reason why it wouldn't this time. I'll be there when it falls apart, and I'll be there to help pick her up and keep her going. I know it's not right. I know it's maladaptive. I know it's bad. It hasn't always been this way, but when she gets "like that" it gets that way.

[Lionheart72 2,190]

I don't know what else to do. If I say to her, "we're done with them" the shit will hit the fan. I don't know how to change it. For all I know we might be done anyway and I'm just trying to hold the pieces together. She can't see it. She can't see her behavior. She can't see how much she hurts me. My feelings, my opinions, everything about me doesn't matter to her right now. She blames me for all the problems we've been having and my perspective doesn't matter.

 

Eventually the excitement will wear off. It always has with other things, I see no reason why it wouldn't this time. I'll be there when it falls apart, and I'll be there to help pick her up and keep her going. I know it's not right. I know it's maladaptive. I know it's bad. It hasn't always been this way, but when she gets "like that" it gets that way.

 

"He doesn't always hit me. Sometimes he's so sweet and kind. It's only when he gets like that..."

 

This seriously sounds like an abusive relationship to me. She may not be beating you up physically, but from what you are saying she sure as hell is beating you up emotionally. Speaking as someone who has survived emotionally abusive relationships, "at least I never hit you" isn't better.

 

Here's my advice, for what little it is worth: Walk away. Just get up and walk away. That thing you're trying to hold together has already fallen apart. It is time to let the shit hit the fan. It is time to let Rome burn. Maybe, after that happens, you can rebuild... but as long as you allow the status quo to continue, the status quo will continue.

 

(Now, maybe I'm wrong. I'm just a guy on the internet responding to what he sees through the narrow window of your posts... but what I see is an emotionally abusive relationship that needs to end.)

[Chicup 41]

The 4 of us hit an all time low last week when my wife and I informed the female that we were planning on hanging out with the first couple with got together with. Holy jealousness, even though we weren't ever planning on playing with them. We all talked, long story, yada yada yada, but at one point the other female looked at me and said, "I gave you my heart. Don't break it." And it was all I could do to not get up and leave and quit the entire thing right there because I felt "responsible" for her happiness on top of my wife's. I didn't though. And this opened up an opportunity for me a couple days later.

 

I feel like the count here.

 

Vun! Vun emotionally insecure female! Two! Two emotionally insecure females!

 

You sure can pick them. Your swinger sister has the right idea. Time to walk away.

[Desdemona1980 297]

I don't know what else to do. If I say to her' date=' "we're done with them" the shit will hit the fan. I don't know how to change it. For all I know we might be done anyway and I'm just trying to hold the pieces together.[/quote']

 

Sometimes in order to save a relationship you have to be willing to lose it first. Telling her the cold hard truth of how you feel and "we're done with them" might well end things for your relationship, but it might just tear it down to the point where you can actually rebuild it stronger than it is now or has ever been. You wouldn't only be standing up for yourself, you would be standing up for the marriage and woman you love. She might not see it right away or for a while, but she might come around and snap out of her fairyland fog. The downside is you have to be willing to risk everything to save everything.

 

Good luck.

[sunbuckus 3,567]

I don't know what else to do. If I say to her, "we're done with them" the shit will hit the fan. I don't know how to change it. For all I know we might be done anyway and I'm just trying to hold the pieces together. She can't see it. She can't see her behavior. She can't see how much she hurts me. My feelings, my opinions, everything about me doesn't matter to her right now. She blames me for all the problems we've been having and my perspective doesn't matter.

 

Eventually the excitement will wear off. It always has with other things, I see no reason why it wouldn't this time. I'll be there when it falls apart, and I'll be there to help pick her up and keep her going. I know it's not right. I know it's maladaptive. I know it's bad. It hasn't always been this way, but when she gets "like that" it gets that way.

 

I've been sitting here trying to think of a way to gently tell you that you need to start thinking about what is good for you. Do you really think that it is healthy for you to be living in fear? Fear of how she will react? Fear of saying the wrong thing? Fear of wanting what you want when it's contrary to what she wants? How about being in a marriage where you aren't an equal partner? If you are afraid of saying or doing the wrong thing; or you are afraid of expressing your feelings to her; or you can't sit down and have an adult conversation with her about serious matters without her being violent...what type of relationship do you think that is? Do you think that is how a relationship/marriage should be?

 

In a previous thread, a wise forum member pointed out that your wife was acting like a toddler. At the time, I wasn't sure if I would qualify your wife in that manner but your response has convinced me to see it the same way. If she "gets this way" and gets her way every time, what does she learn? She learns that that behavior is acceptable and that you are willing to put up with it. She isn't going to see that it's childish behavior to throw a violent adult tantrum when she doesn't get what she wants or if her "toy" gets taken away. Feeling upset or sad is normal but adults are able to sit down, talk about it, and listen to how the other adults in the situation feel and think.

 

I know issuing ultimatums in a relationship aren't a good idea; however, when dealing with childish behavior/thinking, a clear action-consequence needs to be given and there needs to be concise follow-through. I'm not going to tell you what to say or what you should do because I think it's best if you think about what you want, what you want in your marriage, and what you are willing to do to have those things in your life. If you are happy with how things are in your marriage, then continue doing what you've been doing in the past. If you aren't happy, then you know that something has to change to produce a different outcome.

 

My last few questions for you think think about: Are you satisfied with being a slave to your wife's emotions? Is this the type of marriage you wanted for yourself? Do you want to feel like an equal partner with equal say in an adult relationship?

[idon'tknow 15]

If you aren't happy, then you know that something has to change to produce a different outcome.

 

My last few questions for you think think about: Are you satisfied with being a slave to your wife's emotions? Is this the type of marriage you wanted for yourself? Do you want to feel like an equal partner with equal say in an adult relationship?

 

Something has to change. Something will change. It's in the process of changing. How about this for an analogy... she and I are both in the hole, I'm grabbing the ropes, putting the contraptions together, and slowly but steadily climbing up and inch at time. Occasionally she recognizes it and stops digging down and helps climb but then gets confused and starts digging again. In the meantime I've got a rope attached to me that's attached to her so she doesn't slip too far. I popped the other female upside the head with the proverbial 2X4 last week and she's changing how she does and thinks about me and our relationship and she says that she and her husband are on the same page as me. My wife's 2X4 is coming. It'll be dark, it'll be bad, it may ruin us, but I plan on holding on to that rope until she willingly unties it from herself and falls or grabs it and starts climbing. I've got a lot of friends on my side on this.

 

Last night was a good night for the two of us. I had a shitty day at work (nursy stuff), came home and the two of us soaked in the tub and talked for a couple hours. Then we had a quickie. Then we did something we haven't done in months... we watched a t.v. show together and fell asleep in each other's arms. I'd like for the two of us to run through Julie's book together too... or maybe the four of us. Maybe we can make it a book club thing lol. Bottom line is I'm not letting go of the rope without a fight.

 

Sun (or anyone else): On that thread you linked there was a post about "Our 'Playtime Agreement'" It's a huge thread and I couldn't find exactly what the playtime agreement was. Can anyone link that to me or something? I'd appreciate it. Thank you.

[sunbuckus 3,567]

Quote

Sun (or anyone else): On that thread you linked there was a post about "Our 'Playtime Agreement'" It's a huge thread and I couldn't find exactly what the playtime agreement was. Can anyone link that to me or something? I'd appreciate it. Thank you.

 

I think this is the post that you are looking for...however, I didn't read it and I have to point out that this written agreement is coming from a couple that is no longer together. If a written agreement works for you guys, that's great but I also have to point out that agreements only work when everyone abides by it--not just parts of it that benefits them.

 

Good luck. Please keep us updated.

[Chicup 41]

I think if you need a contract to swing, you shouldn't be swinging.

 

edit: Oh thats when the forum let you actually post full sized photos, I miss that

[Mochacino 188]

So I went and read that thread in question...and need a nap now. This was just an excellent way to illustrate what NOT to do...Thanks Sun for directing me there. It was informative and at times entertaining (for all the wrong reasons) and it's 2 hours I will never get back.

[Gordo 618]

It's in the process of changing. How about this for an analogy...

 

How's this for an analogy. You're deluding yourself! You got great advice on the other thread and you chose to ignore it and raise the conversation again.

 

Drug addicts CAN'T do drugs.

 

Alcoholics CAN'T do booze.

 

Women in love with ANOTHER MAN can't continue to fuck him. It will not end well...it never ends well.

 

As you've were told time and time again on the previous thread break it off.

 

You talk about a hole in the ground, well that hole is full of shit already and if the shit hits the fan you're already in shit up to your eyeballs so what difference is there.

 

You said on your previous thread that you were a martial artist something I have also done for years. One of the first lessons and a continuing thrust of martial arts is self esteem. If you read this thread and your previous ones I challenge you to show where you are projecting the slightest self esteem in all this.

[XploreFun 26]

Op, the amount of responses you are receiving is testament to the thought people are giving to your situation.

 

As the saying goes 'there is a time for a discussion and a time for a decision.' It's hard to imagine there is any more advice available to you to move things forward.

 

It's really down to you. The world has an amazing way of bringing everything to a conclusion one way or another.

 

From your description it's hard to imagine that you have a situation here that will get better with time.

 

Necessity breeds action. You will ultimately do what leads to an outcome you can live with even if you do not acknowledge it. It's human nature. If you choose to stay on your current path then you are accepting the emergent outcome that comes with that path.

 

You are the only external influence available in this situation that will turn this in your favour.

[10thBadger 25]

On 6/26/2013 at 9:40 AM, idon'tknow said:

We've been with this particular couple for a couple months now. They've been friends of ours since the late 90's but we kinda lost touch a few years ago until earlier this year and then things took a turn towards swinging (my wife was throwing out "polyamory" for a while too, but I've put the kibosh on that, I'm not interested in that).

 

First let me pose a question: have you ever been in a situation where multiple people are involved and you feel like you're the only one who is objectively able to take a step back and look at the big picture and see that there is a problem? I feel like that guy. I feel like ever since we introduced the sexual element into our relationship that a number of things have happened. Here's a few things (in no particular order of importance).

 

1-I feel like most recently our friendship is becoming strained.

-My wife is very frustrated with the female half of the other couple. We are their first (they're our second). Hell, I'm kinda frustrated with her too. She's full of double standards for her husband. She can do all sorts of things, but he really can't. My wife hates that. My wife is kinda lumping me into that "double standard" mix too for some reason, but there was only one thing I did that was remotely close to that and I apologized for that.

-Before the sexual element was introduced we used to go hangout for hours and hours and it felt like minutes... that's gone away. I don't know if it was the sexual element that's ruining that, or if it's just "newness" wearing off.

-Female half feels like a lot of our focus in this is my wife, which is probably true... my wife is a very strong very forceful personality, it's really hard NOT to focus a lot of attention on her.

-He has recently started calling me "quirky" because when we're all together I vacillate, apparently, between being really into his wife and then not. I don't see it but according to my wife "everyone sees it." Is it weird that I feel like when we're together they're all expecting that we "act" like we're married to the other person? Cause that's what I feel like a lot of times. I've told them all before that I'm not interested in that. I'm interested in the friendship, the sexual element is secondary to all that, but I feel that the sexual element is kind of taking over the relationship... that turns me off, big time. My big answer to the vacillation thing is that I'm not married to her, I'm married to my wife. She's who I'd rather be with.

 

2-I feel like my wife and I aren't as close as we were.

-She's angry with me a lot lately, and most of the anger centers around various aspects of our relationship with this other couple. There have been a couple times since we started this with them that my wife has actually gotten physically violent with me when I've tried to point certain things out to her (not a big deal, she's 4'11" and all of about 110 pounds soaking wet, I'm nearly 6' and 190 pounds of a lot of muscle mass with a martial arts background and I can take a hit just fine). Here's how it was a big deal though, in 15 years of being with her she has NEVER been physically violent with me and it scared and scares the shit out of me.

-Our sex life before starting the sexual element with this couple was AMAZING, it sucks now.

-When we started talking about this lifestyle we introduced a level of communication that we have never had before and it was great... it's gone now. I can barely even open my mouth about any of my concerns without her closing off and getting extremely angry with me.

 

3-I feel like the "relationship" that the 3 of them want is overtaking our lives and I feel like a villain because I'm the one who keeps pushing back on that.

4-This isn't fun for me anymore.

 

I don't get turned on by hearing her or seeing her with someone else. I was able to for a while but when they all started talking about "sharing our lives together forever"... yeah, no. That doesn't do anything for me except reinforce the old fears I thought I no longer had about my wife not really wanting to be with me. I told her last night that we need to "change" something. That maybe we can take turns or something. She and him go first, the female half and I go second or whatever... and then we reconnect afterwards. She didn't like that very much... but here's what happens now when I see her or hear her with him... mr. whiskers takes a nose dive. I no longer find it enjoyable. She wants to be able to do MFM with him and I don't think I can do that, not because I don't want to, but because I don't think I can physically do it at this time.

 

I don't want to sleep overnight with someone else. I really just want to share that part of my life with my wife. Could there ever be times when we throw out hall-passes or something where we spend the night occasionally? Yes. But in the last few months we've spent multiple nights either in the same room in a different bed, in a different room, in different places, overnight. Without fail I will wake up at least 2-3 times, my heart pounding, feeling like I'm having a heart attack (just a panic attack) reaching for my wife and finding someone else beside me. I don't like it. I told my wife last night that when we're done I'd like to be able to go back to bed with her... she wasn't happy with that, and I really don't understand why. I told her I kinda liked it how we did it with the first couple we were into, where they come over or we go over, do our thing and then re-connect afterwards with each other. We don't "reconnect" at all with this couple.

 

I feel like once we introduced sexuality into our friendship that that also brought in a lot of drama, a lot of anger and resentment, a lot of confusion, and a lot of line blurring. She has admitted to "falling in love" with them, but has also stated that it's a completely different kind of love than she has for me which is true. I'm not worried about her leaving me for him or them. It breaks down like this: my main focus in all of this is her and my relationship; the other couple's main focus is them and their relationship; my wife's main focus is the relationship between all 4 of us.

 

Edited to add: my wife has admitted that in all of this her biggest fear is that I'll take it all away from her.

That is exactly what you need to be worried about. They are taking your wife away from you are you are sitting there pondering it. If she got upset that you said that you wanted her to be in a bed with you. Dude she’s already halfway there and she probably needs your financial support to do it

[10thBadger 25]

On 8/20/2013 at 6:50 AM, idon'tknow said:

It's been one huge long roller-coaster with a lot of ups and a lot of downs. Because I wanted to maintain my marriage (and because after 15 years of being with her I like to think I know how she is) I decided to just kinda move forward with the relationship with the other couple and try to slowly change the dynamic behind the scenes.

 

The 4 of us hit an all time low last week when my wife and I informed the female that we were planning on hanging out with the first couple with got together with. Holy jealousness, even though we weren't ever planning on playing with them. We all talked, long story, yada yada yada, but at one point the other female looked at me and said, "I gave you my heart. Don't break it." And it was all I could do to not get up and leave and quit the entire thing right there because I felt "responsible" for her happiness on top of my wife's. I didn't though. And this opened up an opportunity for me a couple days later.

 

See part of the problem with me and my wife is that I can't share my feelings in front of her. She gets mad, she doesn't understand them, and even if its the same thing being said by everyone else she will look at me and tell me to shush or shake her head in disappointment at me. It's weird, the other couple sees it too, and they don't understand it. I talked to my wife about it and she said I was over-reacting, which I wasn't but whatever, I talked to my sister about it (the pure swinger) and she said, "drop 'em. Walk away." Then the other other female (the first couple we played with) had a nice long chat with this female about things. Then a couple days later the female and I were texting about it and I told her how I felt that night, what I liked about this first couple, and what I wanted (stuff I've been saying since day one) she said, "we need to talk."

 

I walked in, she looked at me and said, "I'm doing this wrong. You want a swinging relationship. You want the friendship and camaraderie. You don't want the deep emotional stuff. And when I look back on it you've been saying this since we first got together and started talking about it." She and I had a good long conversation. Her husband was there for most of it. They're on my side of things. Swinging, but exclusiveness (till my wife gets tired of it--which I warned them she will). The friendship was suffering and I told them that, my relationship with my wife was suffering and I told them that. My wife is still in that point of being so "excited about something new" that her blinders are still on. This is how she does things. Eventually the excitement wears off and she can see things more clearly.

 

My wife and I are hitting counseling next week. I hated that I had to talk to this other couple without my wife there, but since I can't share anything in front of her without her getting pissed off at me I felt I was justified in not including her.

Everyone here is giving you great advice telling you did you need to break away from this other couple but yet you just keep being scared I don’t have the balls to stand up to your wife. You deserve everything you get brother and more. You don’t want to be in a relationship, don’t worry about it you could be quite like a mouse because your wife will make you be quiet like a mouse and you would do exactly what she says and you will be miserable and you were deserve it. You keep defending your wife if she keeps shitting on you and obviously you’re OK with that. So go for it and have a great life it’s something that you don’t want to do