Update on HIV thread

[openingthedoor 21]

Hi folks. Well, I'm new here (although I have been around before and just forgot my screen name/email so re-registered). But I started an HIV thread yesterday because of a terrorizing experience (mostly created in my mind) after our first and only swinging experience, which was a FFM. Long story short--we chose a very experienced unicorn with lots of sex partners who regularly attends sex clubs. The next day I had a sore throat and started googling, and all hell broke loose from there. My husband and I have had basically the most hellish week of our lives thinking I might have contracted a life threatening illness. We have cried and screamed and held each other. All over what turned out to be the common cold.

 

So I figure I should either explain or get a new screen name. I'll start by explaining and, if that doesn't work, there's always becoming a newbie again.

 

Basically I don't want people to think that we have HIV--gees that would be horrible. We do not. We are both very healthy (very very into health and fitness). And we have been monogamous although talking about swinging for the last 2 years and finally made a move (finally found a unicorn) and now wondering whether we should continue.

 

But I became terrified that I might have contracted HIV because basically I caught a cold the day after our experience. And cold symptoms are similar to initial HIV symptoms, although they never (ever) appear the next day. More like 2 weeks later.

 

I have since been told by an HIV doc that oral sex without a condom does not cause HIV and I have zero risk so do not even need to be tested since we were both tested before we went into this experience and then did nothing that would give us HIV (although I am going to get tested next week--the first time that I can based on window periods). Basically as long as we wear condoms during sex, the risk of HIV is essentially zilch (never a reported case from oral alone). There is some info on the internet that there is a very very small risk of HIV from oral--but there actually have been no reported cases. Ever. And hubbie wore a condom. So really my cold was just a cold.

 

But swingers still have to be concerned and aware of other STD's, like herpes and hep. There are vaccines for HEP but I'm not sure where I would go to ask for one (and what explanation I would give for wanting one). Herpes ... well... 20% of Americans have it. I don't understand why asking for regular STD test RESULTS is so abnormal in swinging. Seems like sex clubs should require them for membership...might lead to more members, you know?

 

Also, you can reduce risk of transmission of herpes by: wearing a condom, checking for ANY sores/bumps/redness areas (although razer burn not the same--google photos) before performing oral or having sex, rinsing you mouth, hands, and genitals after sex with hydrogen peroxide, and using nonoxynol-9 and/or contraceptive gels. But you can catch herpes that is not visible and those precautions don't necessarily eliminate the risk.

 

Other STDs aren't great but are treatable, which sets them apart from HIV, herpes and HEP (not totally informed at this point on hep but I would become totally informed if we really decided to move forward with swinging).

 

Why am I telling you this? Because, if we decide to swing, it would be nice if everyone were fully informed (and maybe they already are--we weren't--before our encounter). So basically this is a public service announcement. And I'd like swingers to always be talking and thinking about safe sex. I'd also love if the norm of swinging moved toward asking and providing test results somehow. May not always be realistic but we would have no problem bringing a piece of paper with us to first dates...

 

I deleted my other thread because no one was replying. And I felt kind of like a leper. But anyway deal is...we are disease free...we are just really wondering how to go about this lifestyle and stay that way.

 

Why don't swingers really want to talk about this??!! Trust me, if you ever have a real scare (real or imagined real), you will never want to not talk about this again.

[funcoupledayton 2,708]

There have been many, many discussions here about std's and most people on this board at least, are pretty well informed.

 

As far as getting Hep B vaccines. Just ask your Dr or go to the health deptartment. If you are going to swing you should get tested yearly for STDs. You may also want to ask about the hpv vaccine (depends on the number of partners you've had whether it may be helpful to you)

 

Don't use nonoxynol 9 it is a detergent, terrible for mucous membranes and promotes hiv transmission.

 

I've never heard of washing with peroxide.

[two4youinswva 3,068]

I deleted my other thread because no one was replying. And I felt kind of like a leper. But anyway deal is...we are disease free...we are just really wondering how to go about this lifestyle and stay that way.

 

Why don't swingers really want to talk about this??!! Trust me, if you ever have a real scare (real or imagined real), you will never want to not talk about this again.

 

You gave the board less than one hour to read and respond to your original thread. I checked, and it looks like maybe two people were able to even read it before you deleted it.

 

The forum is not a chat room. It takes a little time to get replies on many topics. Believe me, people are not afraid to talk about HIV, or any other disease around here. You'll get lots of opinions if you give them time.

[mauijanedoe 1,414]

Why don't swingers really want to talk about this??!! Trust me, if you ever have a real scare (real or imagined real), you will never want to not talk about this again.

 

We do talk about this, here on the forum (there is a sub-forum dedicated to STIs and safer sex) and, like many non-monogamous couples, at home. I think many of us did a great deal of research before swinging, as well, although not everyone does.

 

The unfortunate reality is that, whenever you're not strictly monogamous within your sexual group (couple/triad/whatever) and completely disease free, there is a certain amount of risk. You need to accept that if you're going to swing. Test results, while helpful in alleviating tension, are actually not all that useful unless the person being tested has not had sex between two testing periods of about six months (given the longest possible time frame for HIV to take hold) and continues to refrain from sex with anyone else. That lack of usefulness, along with its false promise of security, is why most of us don't require tests.

 

I do want to clear up some misinformation as well. Using nonoxynol 9 does not protect against HIV and in at least one study has been shown to increase susceptibility to disease. Herpes lesions and razor bumps actually can look exactly alike, plus the majority of those with HSVII are asymptomatic even while shedding the virus and the shedding can occur from anywhere on the trunk and thighs of the body, which means condoms are not particularly useful there either (although they should still be used). Peroxide isn't actually even recommended for wound cleaning anymore, because it abrades the surface of the skin, something I would consider unwise if you were concerned about diseases transmission, because unbroken skin is your best protection against pretty much everything not covered in latex.

 

If you're non-monogamous or considering it, then tell your doctor. They don't care, they won't judge and it's a material piece of data. Once you've done so, then the conversation about vaccines for Hep A and Hep B (there isn't one for Hep C) should be brought up.

 

I spent three years thinking I had HSVII (I don't, but it took participating in a long study and waiting for the published results to find that out). I've also had the experience of having a lot of symptoms and then waiting for HIV test results, which used to take a lot longer. I don't think either of those experiences have made me any more willing to do more than check STI status, because I've always been realistic about risk management.

 

If you don't want to risk disease, then you should never have sex with anyone who has sex with someone other than you.

[a_d_xxx 663]

Why don't swingers really want to talk about this??!!

 

I saw your post come through on my twitter feed, clicked through to the board, and it was already gone. Not a lot of chance to reply.

 

I would echo what funcoupledayton and mauijanedoe said. There have been numerous discussions about STD's here and on the other boards that we're on. In addition, pretty much every LS related podcast I've listened to has had at least one episode about STD's.

 

Of all of the possible STD's, HIV is probably the one I'm least worried about. Though it is the greatest potential to impact your life, as you've discovered, the risk of contracting it in the LS community is probably the lowest. It does not transmit well via oral sex, and for penetrative sex the proper use of a condom is highly effective in preventing it.

 

We're Canadian, so things may be a little different healthcare wise, but we've both had our Hep A and Hep B vaccines.

 

If you are highly concerned about HPV, consider getting the Gardasil vaccine, though it only targets a handful of strains, those are the ones responsible for the majority of cancers and warts. We had to pay for that one out of our own pocket, and it wasn't cheap, but worth it in our books.

 

As far as HSV-2 is concerned, from a medical standpoint it is mostly just a nuisance. Yes it comes with a social stigma, but it's not a life altering disease. In fact most people infected never present with symptoms, and don't even know they are a carrier. And unless you are experiencing your first outbreak while giving birth to a child, the health impacts are negligible. Again, proper use of barriers can offer some protection (though since it is transmitted skin to skin it's not close to perfect). For those infected, antivirals can help reduce the frequency of outbreaks and the risk of transmission to others. You should pretty much assume that anyone over the age of 35 has HSV-1 (oral cold sores), I think the last time I checked the percentage of those infected was around 80%.

 

Antibiotic resistant gonorrhea, now that sucker makes me nervous. But, it's still treatable, and the proper use of barriers can reduce the possibility of transmission.

 

But the bottom line is that sex comes with risk (even with a monogamous partner, you could fall off the sofa and break something). It is up to you, when this scare has past, and you are in a rational state of mind, to determine what level of risk you are comfortable with. Maybe that will mean that you aren't willing to play with someone you don't know really well. Or will only play with barriers for oral and penetrative sex. Regardless, there is no right way to swing, so the decisions are yours.

 

I would highly recommend that you read Reid Mihalko's Safer Sex Elevator Speech and consider using that when negotiating boundaries with new partners. Clearly this encounter has shown you that post play-date worry and recriminations are painful, and maybe you'd prefer to exchange little bit of upfront awkwardness for this kind of emotional roller coaster in the future.

 

D

[openingthedoor 21]

Thanks to everyone for the replies. What was the cost of the HPV vaccine?

 

I agree that HIV is actually the least concerning, now that I know more. For that reason, I don't know, but rinsing afterward to prevent other diseases with hydrogen peroxide made sense to me. You can find that recommendation on what I think is one of the leading herpes sites. But I have no medical background other than net reading so take that for what it's worth. I understand the skin destruction but at this point am really convinced that HIV isn't a big concern as long as condoms are involved and *don't break.*

 

This has been a real terror though. I actually found myself in the ER 5 days after this happened because I was completely terrified that I was infected and read that you if you take antiviral drugs within 72 hours of transmission, there is a good chance of preventing the disease from taking hold. I had basically a sore throat, headache, and night sweats. I wanted to know if the drugs would help after 5 days. So I was really terrified. Doc said I was low risk and wouldn't give drugs--which left my husband and I drowning in pain and regret for a terrifying number of days. Finally, I paid to speak with an HIV expert/MD/professor, who finally calmed my fears (extremely low risk, plus symptoms would NOT appear the next day--not possible according to him). I also read HIV forums for days learning about symptoms and risks. I still have not been tested, but at this point am 99% confident that I am disease free. Of course, I will get tested to make sure.

 

The reason that I think test results would still be helpful, despite the fact that HIV only shows after 6 months (actually w/newer tests this more like 4-6 weeks), and other diseases either do not show immediately or do not show in the blood, is that seeing negative results would at least show you with real evidence that these potential partners are taking this seriously enough to at least be getting tested, hopefully regularly (a series of results would give you more comfort maybe than one). I mean, it seems that at least would further reduce the risk--not eliminate it--but show you who you are dealing with--and at least theoretically probably further reduce your risk.

 

I don't know what we will do. Honestly, losing my health really isn't worth the thrill. I'm not sure that I'm going to change that view. We have been talking about just going to the clubs for the atmosphere and nothing else.

 

And, truth be told, fantasy was far better than reality in our threesome. We were a terrible match, so that really doesn't help. The woman seemed to like me but she disgusted me. Totally. Sorry but that's the truth. So fantasy being better than reality doesn't help our desire to take risks with our health. I like my health, a lot.

 

But I get it. I get the temptation--totally--and we might give in. I just don't really know...

 

Thanks again to everyone for talking about this. If we move forward, I will definitely re-read these posts, consider the vaccine, and try to do everything possible to minimize our risk to the greatest extent possible. I'm just not sure that I can overcome this issue in my own head.

 

Oh and the other thing is that all sex comes with risk, but swinging in particular, especially at places like sex clubs, seems so highly risk because if one person is infected...obviously they can spread it around to everyone in pretty short order. Kind of different odds it would seem than just normal vanilla dating/sex.

 

Have a great night or day everyone!!

[lotsoffun201 175]

I seriously doubt you have any worries. Mr here, had a friend who was HIV+. She was on meds (which most are) and their viral loads are so low, that you can catch a cold easier. Of course that's no excuse to be cavalier about it. Actually, this female friend was raped and unfortunately received her gift. It was a very sad situation, and we have lost touch for many reasons. Be that as it may, herpes, UTI's, bacterial vaginosis, etc are more common.

 

Not to make light of the situation, but I suspect there might be a guilt or second thought issue here. Please think about that as well before any future experiences.

 

Best of luck to you both.

[openingthedoor 21]

Thanks for the reply. I seriously do not believe there is guilt/second thought going on. This sore throat & headache--I can tell they are viral of some sort. And I am still concerned, although I think that I'm going to get tested today bc HIV doc said if symptoms were HIV (which he estimated at less than 1 in 10,000 chance), then test would show positive one week after symptoms started. And it's been 10-11 days since symptoms started. So I should have those results either tomorrow or Monday at the latest.

 

I know if their viral loads are low there is a low chance of catching (also with oral a very low to arguably non-existent risk). But my fear with this woman based on her lifestyle is that she could easily have HIV and not even know it (clearly an alcoholic attending sex clubs regularly as a single woman, having major financial problems, and other serious red flags).

 

I don't feel guilty. My husband and I have read about, fantasized about, and talked about this situation for years now. We are extremely (extremely) close and I have exactly zero doubt that we will stay together forever. I know that sex is just sex and we both wanted this to happen. It was a shock, seeing him actually penetrate her (probably moved too fast), but still I definitely don't feel guilt. As for second thought...well...no. I don't think either of us would ever have let this go had we not moved forward. And even now the idea of the actual penetration, while it was shocking, turns me on a lot. So in a non-STD world, I think swinging could work for us on some level.

 

However, both of us feel that the STD risk is not worth it. Even getting HSV-II and having to take an antiviral pill daily--not worth it for me or him.

 

I am wondering about the risks of soft swap only, maybe with protection, but I think you would still be at risk for HSV-II and again--not worth it for us. I might ask STD doc that I found online the percentage chance of contracting HSV-II (or any other STD) from that activity only. If there are actual numbers, and the risk for a non-symptomatic person were extremely low, then we might move forward with swinging w/a visual exam of sorts. But that's sure just not very sexy. I don't know but assume you can get HSV-II on your face of all places by performing oral. As far as I can tell, even kissing and touching might pose that risk. So just not our thing, which sucks because at least some version of playing would excite both of us.

 

I guess we will be those at the club looking but not touching. That's how we both feel so I guess that's fine. It will be less exciting but that's just our preference.

[a_d_xxx 663]

openingthedoor,

 

Some additional thoughts:

 

- Swinger communities are generally pretty tight knit. Someone with a known STD not disclosing would be outed pretty quickly.

- Most people test, not to protect themselves (closing the barn door after... etc), but as a public service to their peers. If I know I carry an STD I can curtail my behaviour and/or disclose.

- Transmission is not one to one, all STD's have various levels of transmission rates, having sex with someone with an STD does not guarantee that you will get it.

- Swingers are generally more discerning than you would think. There is a subset that will f**k anything, but most (we've found anyway) do their due diligence.

 

Yes, swinging elevates your level of risk of contracting an STD. But doing your due diligence with play partners can go a long way towards minimizing that. The most important part of the Reid Mihalko safer sex speech I mentioned earlier is the part at the end where you say: "And what about you?" and wait for the response. You've just modeled honest STD communication, and if all you get in response is hems and haws, or blank or evasive stares, then maybe you should pass... Or put on the hazmat suit before proceeding.

 

But I think the process you are going through is an important one. "Assessing your acceptable level of risk." It is just a little sad you had to go through this trauma first.

 

D

[openingthedoor 21]

openingthedoor,

 

Some additional thoughts:

 

- Swinger communities are generally pretty tight knit. Someone with a known STD not disclosing would be outed pretty quickly.

- Most people test, not to protect themselves (closing the barn door after... etc), but as a public service to their peers. If I know I carry an STD I can curtail my behavior and/or disclose.

- Transmission is not one to one, all STD's have various levels of transmission rates, having sex with someone with an STD does not guarantee that you will get it.

- Swingers are generally more discerning than you would think. There is a subset that will f**k anything, but most (we've found anyway) do their due diligence.

 

Yes, swinging elevates your level of risk of contracting an STD. But doing your due diligence with play partners can go a long way towards minimizing that. The most important part of the Reid Mihalko safer sex speech I mentioned earlier is the part at the end where you say: "And what about you?" and wait for the response. You've just modeled honest STD communication, and if all you get in response is hems and haws, or blank or evasive stares, then maybe you should pass... Or put on the hazmat suit before proceeding.

 

But I think the process you are going through is an important one. "Assessing your acceptable level of risk." It is just a little sad you had to go through this trauma first.

 

D

 

I guess it just seems that all swingers (whether they will f*ck anything or not) have learned the party line of saying "we test regularly," or "we are very careful," but reality is that you can't know who is full of sh*t and who isn't. Our first play partner *seemed* great until we actually got to know her much better as sex progressed. We soon learned that she was clearly an alcoholic, maybe even having sex in part to get the booze (begged us to buy both a 12 pack and a bottle of wine AFTER at least 5 drinks in the bar), and had numerous online accounts, they "knew her name" at a local sex club bc she attended very regularly, was a member of fetish online accounts, etc. And this was a SINGLE woman. Very fishy in my view. Her life was obviously f*cked up majorly. And we met online, so not possibility of meeting others who would "out" her. But we couldn't tell from our first meeting. She was beautiful in many ways (body out of clothes showed that she really wasn't taking care of herself--just thin), but beautiful hair and face and body appeared great in sexy jeans, low cut but classy shirt, etc.

 

So if you ask...everyone...including her is smart enough to know that in swinging circles, you MUST at least say that you get tested and say that you are careful in choosing partners, etc (she said exactly those things; I only started to seriously doubt the truth when I learned she doesn't care enough about herself to NOT be an alcoholic--and what alcoholic is really taking care of other non-essential aspects of their lives responsibly??!). I don't think anyone would say much else if they really wanted to get into someone's pants.

 

I am considering asking this doc I found online of the actual statistical risk of contracting diseases with or without condom use during oral. I don't really understand enough about how these diseases are transmitted and would like to know more. But I have been reading some other threads on this forum and not liking what I'm learning so far (and have been reading about other STD's for the last two weeks so I guess I have a pretty good idea although saying something "could" happen isn't the same as knowing the percentage chance that it actually will or does happen--which is what caused my fear with the HIV to start with--and which is what only the HIV expert MD could tell me in terms of basically possible but really non-existent risk). So I am continuing to read and this really does suck but just ... I don't know. I wouldn't trust someone who just told me the right answers to those questions.

 

If someone really wanted us, despite the others in the room who would easily f*ck without asking for anything, then we would have to agree to meet later with test results, after talking to them a LOT and knowing the details, and still we would require condoms, and still I would want to learn more about chances of getting HSV II without a condom during oral. Even with clear test results, penetration would never (ever) happen without a condom. The fear of HIV is too intense. And, for those who say that it isn't really a death sentence anymore, you haven't been reading the HIV boards. It very well can be a death sentence--current stats say average time from exposure to death is 24 years (tests in Denmark were longer). But they have resistant strains among other variables that mean many people die way before their time with HIV. And condoms do break. Check HIV boards for hundreds of posts from terrified people worried about condoms that broke. AND the meds are hell. Read about the side effects. They are hell and they are not optional. Check YouTube for videos of people with HIV talking about the hellish meds. One lady with HIV said "HIV IS a life sentence," referring to the terrible side effects of very strong and serious meds.

 

Sorry to be a buzz kill and actually interested in learning if there is any way of very very significantly reducing our risk. We both think that swinging, at least from time to time, could be a very good thing for our already great sex life (which has improved even further since we started seriously moving down this road). But again our health--a hell of a lot more important.

 

I do welcome any other thoughts about actual stats on transmission with just oral, with and without condoms, if anyone has any knowledge of the actual numbers. And I appreciate the replies and thoughts--you guys all sound like a great group of people who would be awesome friends either way!!

[cplnuswing 4,713]

but reality is that you can't know who is full of sh*t and who isn't.

 

And, there is your answer -- you can never know 100%, so if 100% is what it takes for you, not going to happen. Even if testing is involved, it was only valid to the point the testing was done, so no 100% there either. If you can't 1) accept that like almost everything in life there will always be some level of risk involved, 2) be comfortable with what you have done to manage/reduce that risk, then 3) you don't need to do it.

[openingthedoor 21]

Well, I was tested yesterday and learned today that I am, indeed, HIV negative. HIV doc says that definitively rules out that HIV caused my symptoms, so we are breathing a HUGE sigh of relief.

 

Now, anyone wanna fuck?!

 

Just kidding...

 

But, seriously, I am not averse to any and all conceivable risk. So I am going to try to learn the percentage chance of risk from varying activities and/or just keep our eyes open for couples who might want to get to know us very very well before starting. I mean, for example, with HIV, the risk of contracting from unprotected oral sex is less than 1 in 10000 even with someone who is known to be HIV+. That's a level of risk that I can handle. The question now is what are the percentages for the other diseases...including in particular asymptomatic herpes 2. I realize a carrier can transmit when they have no symptoms, but what is the percentage chance that they would?!

 

Probably not an answerable question but doesn't stop me/us from pondering the possibilities.

 

Can anyone tell me, as an aside, whether couples who only want to watch others and/or engage in public sex (only with their partners) would truly be welcomed and not socially ostracized at sex clubs??

 

Thanks again everyone!! Feeling much MUCH better today!! Going to meet a porn star tonight in fact ...

[SW_PA_Couple 4,026]

. . . Can anyone tell me, as an aside, whether couples who only want to watch others and/or engage in public sex (only with their partners) would truly be welcomed and not socially ostracized at sex clubs??

 

We see 'em all the time.

[openingthedoor 21]

We see 'em all the time.

 

Thanks. Do people kind of ignore them? Or are they welcome as new friends too? And do you think there is pressure for them to join in?? I might start a new thread because I really want to hear maybe from some people who might attend FL clubs. Thanks again for the reply.

[MrsPandMe 150]

Herpes ... well... 20% of Americans have it.

 

I think this number is GROSSLY underestimated. Combined HSV1 and HSV2 carriers in the United States probably is closer to 75% to 85% of the population over the age of 16. As mentioned earlier, a SIGNIFICANT percentage of infected people have no idea they are carriers.

 

In reading your original message, I'm concerned that you have a bit of an unreasonable fear. It is certainly good to be prudent, but it is not good at all to be paranoid.

 

As with all things, sex with others is an exercise in calculated risk. So is walking. It's all a matter of perspective.

 

Mr. P

[Chicup 42]

I've got a pretty through understanding of the risk.

 

My wife and I discussed it and decided swinging was worth the risk based on the positive effects on our relationship and quality of life.

 

Everyone has there own comfort level, that's why we have daredevils, spectators, and people who stay a home.

[openingthedoor 21]

I think this number is GROSSLY underestimated. Combined HSV1 and HSV2 carriers in the United States probably is closer to 75% to 85% of the population over the age of 16. As mentioned earlier, a SIGNIFICANT percentage of infected people have no idea they are carriers.

 

In reading your original message, I'm concerned that you have a bit of an unreasonable fear. It is certainly good to be prudent, but it is not good at all to be paranoid.

 

As with all things, sex with others is an exercise in calculated risk. So is walking. It's all a matter of perspective.

 

Mr. P

 

Thanks. From reading some other threads, I gather you have a science background of some sort?

 

My main concern is HPV2. I have read that 20% of Americans have this. I'm guessing among swingers that rate is much higher, just because if one swinger gets it, then seems like it would spread around.

 

But do you know--what is the percentage chance that you would catch herpes 2 from an asymptomatic person (with no visible sores) if using a condom but performing unprotected oral?

 

Not as worried about HPV1.

 

Thanks!

[mauijanedoe 1,414]

My main concern is HPV2. I have read that 20% of Americans have this. I'm guessing among swingers that rate is much higher, just bc if one swinger gets it, then seems like it would spread around.

 

But do you know--what is the percentage chance that you would catch herpes 2 from an asymptomatic person (with no visible sores) if using a condom but performing unprotected oral?

 

Not as worried about HPV1.

 

First, I'm guessing you mean HSVI and HSVII, which are the two herpes viruses most people worry about. HPV is a different kettle of yuck and is also something about which you can and should worry. Second, swingers and others of the ethically non-monogamous population have a higher testing rate than is generally the case (probably because we have not only our own health to worry about but also that of our beloveds) among the sexually active, so are less likely to have herpes and not know it.

 

For the rest, there is no actual answer to your question. All data on STI transmission is extrapolated (basically a guess) based mostly on anecdotal reporting and disease presentation, because there is no way to ethically test disease vectors on a human population. So, absent a controlled study where uninfected partners have only p/v sex with condoms with infected partners and a second group only has unprotected oral sex, it's all a big ole guess. That's one thing. Another is that if 20% of the US population has HSVII and 80-90% of those people do not know they have it (partly because it's often asymptomatic and partly because an outbreak can be so subtle that it just goes unnoticed), how would anyone be able to track methods and likelihood of transmission?

 

As to not having an equal concern about HSVI, it can also be asymptomatic and it's quite possible to contract it so that future outbreaks occur in the trunk/genital area. The two are differentiated less by how and where they present than where the virus lives.

 

I'm not trying to further frighten you, but to negotiate with risk requires factual information.

[Chicup 42]

Thanks. From reading some other threads, I gather you have a science background of some sort?

 

My main concern is HPV2. I have read that 20% of Americans have this. I'm guessing among swingers that rate is much higher, just because if one swinger gets it, then seems like it would spread around.

 

But do you know--what is the percentage chance that you would catch herpes 2 from an asymptomatic person (with no visible sores) if using a condom but performing unprotected oral?

 

Not as worried about HPV1.

 

Thanks!

 

10+ years swinging and no hsv-II. Yes it's out there and it can happen your first time, no idea if it's higher with swingers, yes we have been tested.

[funcoupledayton 2,708]

This is an excellent resource for herpes information Herpes Handbook - Westover Heights Clinic It will answer many of your questions.

 

It does include transmission rates for the different types of herpes including information on the protective effect of condoms and anti-viral medication.

 

Getting Hsv 2 orally is quite rare, usually not a long term problem, and not something to worry about (I don't think). The risk of contracting hsv1 genitally as a result of oral sex is much higher.

[AR1547 131]

Can anyone tell me, as an aside, whether couples who only want to watch others and/or engage in public sex (only with their partners) would truly be welcomed and not socially ostracized at sex clubs??

 

You won't be ostracized, BUT

if another couple introduces themselves to you and begins the friendly sociable small talk then that probably means they want to fuck you. Find a way to work your limits into the flow of the conversation within the first few minutes, mainly as an act of courtesy. If they stick around after that then you're all good, you did your duty of informing them. At a club we used to attend frequently, there were many people who had such limits and it really REALLY sucks to find that out after you've spent an hour talking to them and it seemed to be going in the direction of hooking up. It totally hacked me off every time that happened.

[naturefun 174]

openingthedoor said:

But I started an HIV thread yesterday bc of a terrorizing experience (mostly created in my mind) after our first and only swinging experience, which was a FFM. Long story short--we chose a very experienced unicorn with lots of sex partners who regularly attends sex clubs. The next day I had a sore throat and started googling, and all hell broke loose from there. My husband and I have had basically the most hellish week of our lives thinking I might have contracted a life threatening illness. We have cried and screamed and held each other. All over what turned out to be the common cold.

 

But I became terrified that I might have contracted HIV because basically I caught a cold the day after our experience. And cold symptoms are similar to initial HIV symptoms, although they never (ever) appear the next day. More like 2 weeks later.

 

What happens is that HIV, like any other infectious agent, will have an incubation period until it turns into a full-blown infection. Your body will fight this off reasonably well, and you'll feel better. It's just like a common cold. The difference is that HIV's life cycle allows it to hide. Your body can never eliminate 100% of the virus because a small amount of it is always hiding somewhere. In fact, this is why HIV is so dangerous. The effects of the virus itself aren't that bad- heck, the simian version of HIV, SIV, is a chronic but certainly not life-threatening illness. The difference is that chimpanzees allow the virus to stay, while our immune system nukes itself into oblivion trying to wipe out the immune cells that HIV resides in.

 

openingthedoor said:

I have since been told by an HIV doc that oral sex without a condom does not cause HIV and I have zero risk so do not even need to be tested since we were both tested before we went into this experience and then did nothing that would give us HIV (although I am going to get tested next week--the first time that I can based on window periods).

 

This doctor should have his license revoked immediately. From the CDC:

 

Quote

Oral Sex Is Not Risk Free

 

Like all sexual activity, oral sex carries some risk of HIV transmission when one partner is known to be infected with HIV, when either partner’s HIV status is not known, and/or when one partner is not monogamous or injects drugs. Even though the risk of transmitting HIV through oral sex is much lower than that of anal or vaginal sex, numerous studies have demonstrated that oral sex can result in the transmission of HIV and other sexually transmitted diseases (STDs).

 

Now HIV transmission rates are relatively low for oral sex, and they're virtually non-existent for the person receiving oral sex because while HIV is present in saliva, it's not present in high enough concentrations to threaten contagion. The person giving oral sex, on the other hand, is definitely at risk.

[Chicup 42]

The CDC is always a tad conservative about risk. The problem is that while hypothetically, HIV via oral sex is possible, finding actual case studies is very very unusual.

 

Still, very low risk is not the same as no risk. Some doctors do state zero risk though, and I think that's irresponsible.

[IEcouple 222]

Honestly, openingthedoor, you sound way too paranoid to enjoy swinging right now. The fact that you mistook cold symptoms for HIV the NEXT DAY indicates that you really jumped into it before educating yourself about it. I don't mean that as a criticism. (Just about everybody swings before taking something into account and coping with it later.) As others mentioned, there has been a LOT of discussion here about STI's already, but you won't find really definitive answers about the risks because it will always depend on who you play with.

 

Yes, the more people you have sex with, the riskier it is. The more fluids get exchanged, the riskier that sex act is. There are many, many swingers who limit their play to a fairly small number of partners that they meet regularly. Others play with many partners, use condoms, and never catch anything. This is more the rule than the exception.

 

Here's one thing you can be sure of: HIV is the only STI that has a plausible risk of death in the future. It's also the least likely to contract from unprotected vaginal sex, much less oral. All of the other infections, as someone else pointed out, are more of a health nuisance than anything. Not that you should never worry about them, but they do NOT justify the anxiety that you've already experienced. Try to relax!

[openingthedoor 21]

Yes, we did jump in without educating ourselves. We really felt that the threat was minimal from someone who initially "seemed" safe -- based on whatever unreliable factors you use when you are horny.

 

I agree. I am too paranoid to enjoy. Don't think that will go away. I mean, if you get genital HSV II (yes I meant hsv not hpv--that was a typo), then I understand you just have to take anti-virals--but I'm kind of happy about the fact that I'm very healthy and don't have to take daily meds--that's my goal for most of my life because I experience side effects with almost all meds so taking a daily prescription drug would be a big deal to me. AND if you contracted HSVII, then obviously your super fun swinging days would grind to a hault anyway or become much more complicated at the least.

 

I suppose we have decided just to go to the parties and try to get aroused without partaking (and of course we would tell someone early in the conversation--I have read enough to understand that would be a real disappointment and would never put anyone in that position). Although blood test results don't eliminate risk, we would probably also play with a couple who had negative test results, convinced us they weren't doing anything too crazy, and wearing condoms, and sorry but also undergoing somewhat of a visual exam. If someone met us and wanted to go through that hassle and meet up later, then we might be a good match. We are willing to go through that hassle ourselves to give others the same level of confidence, so maybe we will meet a couple that is otherwise a match who would also go through those steps. If we ever start up another profile on a swinger site, then we plan to scan and upload regular test results--and would love to see that become a trend because, let's face it, getting tested is inconvenient and it is VERY easy just to say that you get tested regularly, without actually doing it. But if more people required test results, and offered their own test results online before meeting (or brought them with them to clubs), then more people would probably make the effort to get tested regularly and reliably.

 

I did a search yesterday for risk of transmitting herpes II orally and found some stats, which made it sound like a relatively low risk, but still too much for my comfort zone (FYI they perform research on serodiscordant couples, or at least that is my understanding). I don't want HSVII (or HSV I on my or my husband's genitals). It's not that I'm afraid. I just don't want it and at least sitting right here at my computer thinking logically about it--the excitement of swinging isn't worth taking much of a risk.

 

Also if you search for HIV risk with oral sex, you might find a discussion that I found among leading HIV docs. They have performed tests on gay populations where one partner has HIV and the other does not, I think over spans of something like 10 years. And from those tests and other methods--I guess they are saying they don't even have a single reported case of HIV transmission EVER from oral sex, even when performed on someone who is known to have HIV. So some doctors on the panel felt that the risk was non-existent, others just leaned toward very, very unlikely. Either way, I think it is safe to say that the risk is extremely low and/or non-existent, based on the studies that they have done and the questions that they ask of people who have tested positive.

 

My husband was saying they need latex shorts for guys with a condom on the end, and latex undies for ladies with a little hole in them. So do we have any inventors on the board?!

[openingthedoor 21]

I asked the doctor about other STIs and, for anyone interested, here's what he said:

 

My question:

 

"Thank you. I was tested yesterday and confirmed negative results--thank GOD. I will test again to confirm but this relieves my concern that these symptoms were caused by HIV.

 

Please tell me if this is going beyond what is permitted in these questions, and I will pay again to ask again, but my husband and I are considering "swinging" as a lifestyle. We have read a good bit about HPV and HSV-1 & HSV-2 transmission. So we know these are possible, that there are vaccines, etc. But I'm wondering--if we only perform oral sex with or without penetration, are we statistically likely to acquire one of these diseases? And what about penetration while wearing a condom?

 

I'm basically just trying to assess whether the risk with protection and/or only oral is minimal, or whether statistically speaking this type of lifestyle poses a relatively high risk, even with protection, of acquiring an illness that you can't treat and/or is serious. I already understand where HIV lands on this spectrum...

 

Thank you!!

 

His Reply:

 

"If your symptoms had been due to HIV, your test would hav been positive. Believe your test results.

 

Oral sex is relatively low risk for all STIs. Low risk is not no risk. Wearing condoms will make potential exposures essentially zero.

 

I hope this helps. EWH"

 

I'm not sure if he meant condoms reduce risk to "essentially zero" for oral (with protection) or both oral and vaginal. So I've asked again...we shall see.

 

But it is *kind of tempting* to hear a clear expert say that oral is very low risk and oral with protection is no risk...not that I really want to run out and start having oral with protection...but still interesting.

[cplnuswing 4,713]

If we ever start up another profile on a swinger site, then we plan to scan and upload regular test results--and would love to see that become a trend because, let's face it, getting tested is inconvenient and it is VERY easy just to say that you get tested regularly, without actually doing it. But if more people required test results, and offered their own test results online before meeting (or brought them with them to clubs), then more people would probably make the effort to get tested regularly and reliably.

 

I wouldn't hold my breath on it. One problem is most people don't want their real names out there floating around for all to see. Remove it, and what good is documentation, could be for anybody. Beyond that, since as far as I know there isn't some special standard form, someone could just easily just come up with their own fake document and you wouldn't know any different.

 

This is an old issue, it's been around since probably swinging has been around, or sex itself for that matter. There is a risk, you decide what level you are comfortable with, and you try to minimize it to that level or lower, that is all you can do.

[openingthedoor 21]

I wouldn't hold my breath on it. One problem is most people don't want their real names out there floating around for all to see. Remove it, and what good is documentation, could be for anybody. Beyond that, since as far as I know there isn't some special standard form, someone could just easily just come up with their own fake document and you wouldn't know any different.

 

I didn't think about the real name issue. Great point! I'm sure that thought would have hit me before actually posting. But still you could post results w/name retracted and then later bring those same results with your name NOT retracted.

 

I'm sure testing /requiring test results (or not) is an old issue in the swinging world but things can change in any life endeavor.

[openingthedoor 21]

Yet another update:

 

I posted another question to the STD doc and this was the exchange:

 

 

ME: Thank you. Do you mean condoms reduce risk to essentially zero for oral and vaginal sex? Or just oral sex? Sorry just not clear on your answer.

 

Thanks so much.

Reply

 

 

STD MD's reply: "Intact condoms, used throughout intercourse of all forms reduce the risk for infection to essentially zero."

 

Can this really be true??! So according to this doc, if you use protection, your risk of infection for any and all STDs (including HSV 1 & 2) is essentially zero. I was asking him bc just reading that there is some risk doesn't tell you the degree of risk. So now I really don't know what to think. Sounds good but hard to believe. Hmmm....

[funcoupledayton 2,708]

I didn't think about the real name issue. Great point! I'm sure that thought would have hit me before actually posting. But still you could post results w/name retracted and then later bring those same results with your name NOT retracted.

 

I'm sure testing /requiring test results (or not) is an old issue in the swinging world but things can change in any life endeavor.

 

When I get tested my Dr. just calls and says everything is fine. I never get a certificate or anything and I've probably been tested 10 times.

[funcoupledayton 2,708]

Read the handbook I posted earlier on HSV. Condoms reduce transmission by about 50%. (that does not mean acquisition is 50%, if you read the report you will see what the rate of transmission without condoms is)

 

You can look at studies for other STD's also. For example, in people with known exposure to chlamydia, consistent condom use resulted in about 13% acquiring, while inconsistent condom use, 34% for vaginal intercourse.

 

Most regular doctors don't know everything about STD's and know almost nothing about HSV. Your best bet is to go to the CDC and look for the latest research on specific STD's.

[openingthedoor 21]

When I get tested my Dr. just calls and says everything is fine. I never get a certificate or anything and I've probably been tested 10 times.

 

Oh, that's interesting and a good point for us to consider. Just FYI--you could request and receive the test results. I used to manage a health clinic--all blood & lab tests come with reports / results, which you are entitled to receive.

 

When we were tested, we went to a commercial lab, where we were given the results.

[funcoupledayton 2,708]

Oh, that's interesting and a good point for us to consider. Just FYI--you could request and receive the test results. I used to manage a health clinic--all blood & lab tests come with reports / results, which you are entitled to receive.

 

When we were tested, we went to a commercial lab, where we were given the results.

 

I realize that, I also worked in the medical field. But someone has to copy that paper and mail it, or you have to pick it up at the office. Then carry it in your purse or wallet to clubs and parties. It's just not practical or ever done.

[angelkin 1,326]

We do get tested periodically as it's just the responsible thing to do. However those tests are only good until you're with another partner. We always use condoms and feel that helps us to minimize the risk. If someone asked to see the paperwork, I'd think they were being a little paranoid.

[confused12524 201]

The STD topic is different for different people. There are many things in life that carry some element of risk and it is up to you to choose the level that you are comfortable with.

 

When you drive, you may be a great driver. But you buy a safer car, and wear your seatbelt because you're sharing the road with a bunch of people of unknown "status". People get hurt with seatbelts and airbags but the chances are much less. Others will never wear a seatbelt and never have a wreck. Others will not wear a seatbelt, have a wreck, and be fine.

 

You accept that level of risk when you hit the road. Some people go their whole lives and don't drive.

Or you can stay in your car in the driveway. That's almost no risk. Unless your partner pulls in the driveway and crashes into you.

 

For me HIV is the one I'm most afraid of. But the risk level is low enough that I'm not worried. I don't engage in high risk activities. And use condoms for everything else. From my research I feel oral is either "no risk" or so remote that it is not a concern for HIV.

 

Most everything else is curable. And others are a life changing annoyance, but not a one way ticket to the funeral home. Even worst case scenario, neither is HIV.

 

Now, none of what I said should translate to a "careless" view on safe sex. It is quite the opposite.

 

You just need to read on your own, and develop your own plan to play at a "risk level" that you are comfortable with.

 

Some people make it sound like even looking at someone else, you'll catch every STD known to man. Others will go unprotected with hundreds of partners their whole life and never catch anything.

 

I believe most swingers are aware of the risks and operate at their level of comfort.

[openingthedoor 21]

I read the sections of the handbook re: transmission. But I was still wondering what STD docs are seeing, from a practical standpoint, in their offices. That's why I asked that doc. I agree that most docs (including my own) don't seem to know much about STD's but this guy is an STD expert according to his online profile. He says and seems to think a condom makes the risk for all STI's virtually zero. Hard to believe but that is what he says.

 

I imagine some folks would think we are being paranoid, which is fine. Personally, if someone asked me for all of those things, I would obviously think maybe I'd found a match, not unlike other characteristics you might find in potential mates. And the reality is that 20% of people have herpes, probably higher amongst swingers, and higher among certain ethnic groups. If my risk of getting into a car accident that would cause me to have to take meds for the rest of my life were 20%, I might drive a little less often.

 

The driving with seat belt is a pretty good example except that whether the other person is wearing a hypothetical seat belt actually affects you.

 

FYI HIV is still majorly life shortening for many people. Read a few HIV boards to learn many permutations of when the meds do not work. Average life span now 22/23 years w/meds. And life on the meds is hell--per their descriptions--similar to living with low grade chemo every day for the rest of your life. One well known HIV doc died a couple of years ago from complications after about 20 years with the illness. But condoms do offer complete protection if they do not break and oral is very very low risk. So I guess HIV doesn't scare me as much although that might be foolish so I would still want test results + condoms.

 

I guess we've beaten this dead horse as much as we can. I am still curious but I'm sure my cautiousness about STD's will not go away. Personally, if we ever go to a sex club, I will bring my paperwork. And ask potential playmates if they would meet later and bring paperwork. If they think I'm paranoid, they would be correct. So I guess it depends at that point on how much they want to sleep with us. I had one lady balk at the question (potential FFM) after lots of hot emails were exchanged. We both concluded that she must have had something to hide. So there are two sides to how this question and the answer might be viewed.

 

But I do not judge those who do not require tests--not at all! I totally understand getting caught up in the moment and then having that level of risk-taking become the norm. We might be there ourselves one day. I just don't think so but who knows. I just hope that *if* we choose to swing, we can find someone willing to go that extra mile for us.

 

Thanks to everyone for the ideas & discussion!!

[openingthedoor 21]

Can I ask another question, now that my HIV fears have calmed down?

 

My burning question of the moment is whether, after your first swinging experience, you felt a mixture of pain + pleasure (arousal at the thought). And, if so, whether the pain eventually lessened and the pleasure was all that remained.

 

The reason I ask is that is how I feel after the FFM. My husband did not push us into that experience--I was the driving force because of a long-standing fantasy. And the memory (and thought of doing it again) is still *highly* arousing. But I also feel pain. I am not afraid that he will leave. I know that he never will. So that's not the issue. I just felt shock and now can't stop picturing them having sex, which sometimes makes me sad, sometimes doesn't bother me at all, and sometimes is very very arousing, making me want to do the whole thing over again.

 

So I'm trying to figure out if the initial pain is normal and goes away--or a signal that maybe this isn't for us, apart from the STI concern.

[funcoupledayton 2,708]

Can I ask another question, now that my HIV fears have calmed down?

 

My burning question of the moment is whether, after your first swinging experience, you felt a mixture of pain + pleasure (arousal at the thought). And, if so, whether the pain eventually lessened and the pleasure was all that remained.

 

The reason I ask is that is how I feel after the FFM. My husband did not push us into that experience--I was the driving force because of a long-standing fantasy. And the memory (and thought of doing it again) is still *highly* arousing. But I also feel pain. I am not afraid that he will leave. I know that he never will. So that's not the issue. I just felt shock and now can't stop picturing them having sex, which sometimes makes me sad, sometimes doesn't bother me at all, and sometimes is very very arousing, making me want to do the whole thing over again.

 

So I'm trying to figure out if the initial pain is normal and goes away--or a signal that maybe this isn't for us, apart from the STI concern.

 

I think you should create a new topic for this question so this thread does not become confusing. You will get better response that way also.

[MrsPandMe 150]

I was going to quote the questions I am going to address, but that would be a bit of an exercise, so I'll just summarize... I did do a lot of research on HSV before we decided to engage in bareback encounters. One of the things that was remarkable was how ineffective condoms are against transmission of herpes. Main reason is, herpes virus isn't confined to the genitals. Indeed, herpes outbreaks can be found on the pelvis, lower torso, inner thighs... All of which are exposed and can potentially make contact with your partner regardless of whether you're wearing a condom or not. Even dormant, HSV lives in the nerve ganglia and can shed to the skin surface without the carrier knowing. An HSV positive carrier sheds about 1 to 2 percent of the time he has the virus when he is not symptomatic. Outbreaks tend to reduce in frequency the longer a person has the virus to the point where outbreaks no longer occur, but you never are rid of the virus. Anti-viral medications can greatly reduce the shedding frequency. There is not currently a 100% accurate test to determine whether a person who is asymptomatic is HSV positive.

 

The HIV virus is biologically fragile and dies quickly outside of the body. This is why most doctors rate the risk of infection orally as statistically as close to zero as you can get without actually being zero. Saliva is a hostile environment for the virus. To facilitate HIV infection, one must basically introduce the virus directly into the bloodstream. Orally this is virtually impossible without chemical interface with something else en route, and even with vaginal sex considering the environment it's difficult to infect someone, though clearly the risk is much higher.

[openingthedoor 21]

I think you should create a new topic for this question so this thread does not become confusing. You will get better response that way also.

 

Thanks. I did start another thread in the swinging experiences subforum and thanks to those who replied. And thanks to everyone for the feedback on STDs. I have learned a lot and at least happy that *if* we choose to swing, we will go into the experience with more knowledge of the risks than we had before our first experience. Hopefully that will lead us to a cautiousness that will give us the best chance of staying safe.

[naturefun 174]

The HIV virus is biologically fragile and dies quickly outside of the body. This is why most doctors rate the risk of infection orally as statistically as close to zero as you can get without actually being zero. Saliva is a hostile environment for the virus. To facilitate HIV infection, one must basically introduce the virus directly into the bloodstream. Orally this is virtually impossible without chemical interface with something else en route, and even with vaginal sex considering the environment it's difficult to infect someone, though clearly the risk is much higher.

 

The first step of an HIV infection is the virus being picked up by a dendritic cell. DC's are like the lookouts of your immune system. They pick up possible invaders and bring them to lymph nodes where your B and T cells live. They basically show around the thing they picked up saying Hey, look at this thing I found! What the heck is it? From there, your body can react one of two ways. (1) Oh, that's a liver/kidney/blood/etc cell; leave it alone. (2) Crap, we've never seen one of those before! Mobilize the troops! Of course, this actually works against you; the type of cell your body uses to mount a defense is the kind of cell that HIV infects.

 

Anyway though, to start an infection, HIV needs to contact a DC. These are found all through your mucosal surfaces- basically, anything wet and pink. They're also found in abundance in the lining of your blood vessels, which is why getting a virion in your bloodstream makes the infection more likely to get a foothold. But you can contract the disease through the tissue inside your mouth and pharynx, lungs, eyelids, anus, vagina, urethra, and so on. You just don't hear about those things because you don't usually get another person's blood or cum in your lungs. If it gets into your bloodstream, all the better for the virus.

 

Receptive partners are nearly always at higher risk. This is because in normal coitus, more male fluid reaches female mucosae than female fluid reaching male mucosae. You're also at higher risk is the sex introduces tearing. The anus isn't adapted to accommodate a penis. Because of this, anal sex often involves tearing and has a very high transmission rate. Depending on the source you trust, you could have a 30% chance of contracting HIV by receiving anal sex from a seropositive male.

 

For what it's worth, one of my classes had an HIV lecture a month ago. Here are the transmission rates out of one of the lecturer's slides for a single contact event:

 

• Anal intercourse (receptive): 1-30%
  
• Anal intercourse (insertive): 0.1-10%
  
• Vaginal intercourse (receptive): 0.1-10%
  
• Vaginal intercourse (insertive): 0.1-1.0%
  
• Needle sharing: 0.67%
  
• Needle stick (accidental): 0.3%
  
• Oral sex: "small"
  

 

So yes, the risk of contracting HIV from oral sex is small both in absolute and relative terms. However, keep in mind that all these statistics represent single events. Eat out enough seropositive women with high viremia and sooner or later you're likely to get infected. Low transmission rates only protect you when your exposures remain very rare.

 

There's one exception to the rule that HIV has low transmission rates: contaminated blood transfusions. Your odds of contracting HIV after receiving a tainted blood transfusion are around 90%.

[IEcouple 222]

Thanks. From reading some other threads, I gather you have a science background of some sort?

 

My main concern is HPV2. I have read that 20% of Americans have this. I'm guessing among swingers that rate is much higher, just bc if one swinger gets it, then seems like it would spread around.

 

But do you know--what is the percentage chance that you would catch herpes 2 from an asymptomatic person (with no visible sores) if using a condom but performing unprotected oral?

 

Not as worried about HPV1.

 

Thanks!

 

openingthedoor, you're too paranoid to swing. The statistics that you're hoping for really just aren't out there because studies tend to be self-reported and it's hard to parse the numbers reliably. At some point you're going to have to accept the word of the swinging community when they say that STIs are quite rare among swingers, and that there's always going to be some risk.

 

My advice: find some like-minded newbies that you can play with. The kind of certainty you're looking for is just too hard to find otherwise.