STD's - Is ignorance bliss for swingers?

[funcoupledayton 2,708]

A little background. I run a meet and greet group and we have a pretty active online forum. Recently some friends of mine in the group had some incidents and asked if I would talk more about std's on the group. I agreed to provide information and a place for discussion. I think it's a great idea. I also think many people know very little about std's and the value of using condoms, and aren't motivated to go research themselves.

 

So, I spent a good amount of time researching and putting together easy to understand info about condoms and various common std's. I actually learned a lot myself, and it turned out very well.

 

Reaction has been mixed as I expected. One thing I didn't expect was to be told that my group was not the place to discuss std's. The person arguing is a friend and I don't take it personally. Their argument is, "Ignorance is bliss in the lifestyle" and people can go to the CDC and look it up themselves. My postings are not required reading and are clearly labeled so anyone in the group is free to just ignore them.

 

What do you think? Is ignorance bliss in regards to std's?

 

Do you ignore news stories or new research about std's or apply it to your swinging life?

 

What about ignorance to the possibility of emotional entanglements or problems in your marriage related to swinging? Do you think it's better not to consider these possibilities?

[Fundamental Law 2,908]

One of the recent online chats had to do with risk management in the LS. STDs came up. One of the regular chatters was very miffed at the topic and indicated a return to the chat only when the topic was more upbeat. The reluctance to consider and manage risk is hardly confined to the LS. In medicine, at least among patients/families I deal with, there is a reluctance to write advance directives or appoint a spokesperson (power of attorney) because of magical thinking: if I write such documents I will surely need them.

 

If it was ignorance in the way of consideration of these issues, that is easily overcome. You are dealing neither with ignorance nor bliss. Rather, your group might be floating on a river that flows northward through Egypt: "De Nial".

[Lionheart72 2,191]

Ignorance is the worst thing in the world.

[Guy1964 177]

I started researching swinging when my wife's coworker suggested it to her. After researching it, we decided it wasn't for us. Being something of the nerdy type, I tend to research things to death anyway. I really appreciated hearing the negative as well as the positive.

 

From reading the stuff online about swinging, it's obvious some people just want to talk about the upside. I'm sure a lot of those people have some kind of financial interest in swinging. What attracted me to this board was the open and frank conversations. "These are the upsides, but these are the risks."

 

I once heard counseling defined as "Sitting face to face with someone and hearing things that aren't very pleasant to hear." Obviously, I know the forums aren't a therapy session, but I respect you and the other members here for having the guts to tell people stuff they don't want to hear. It is painfully obvious that a lot of the so called information boards tell people what they want to hear, not what they need to hear.

[sunbuckus 3,569]

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the steak scene from The Matrix!!

 

What do you think? Is ignorance bliss in regards to std's?

 

It's "bliss" in that they have rose-tinted glasses on when it comes to swinging and sex. But it's not smart. It's good to be an informed swinger...or informed person in general.

 

Do you ignore news stories or new research about std's or apply it to your swinging life?

 

We don't really watch news but if we come across a news article or someone points it out, we read it and think about it. But we don't intentionally ignore it if we see it.

 

What about ignorance to the possibility of emotional entanglements or problems in your marriage related to swinging? Do you think it's better not to consider these possibilities?

 

For some reason, I think that's even more dangerous to do when it comes to swinging. If you don't consider that there could be emotional entanglements in the future and think about how you would like to deal with them ahead of time, it can be pretty disastrous to the relationship. STDs are important but the damage that could be done to a relationship is can all encompassing, especially when children are in the picture.

[Chicup 42]

I think it depends.

 

I know the risks, but I'd rather not have them brought up when I'm trying to get my groove on so to speak, but I research EVERYTHING. As Han Solo says "Never tell me the odds!"

 

For others who never take the time or think of it, it could be useful.

[asncpl 730]

I think it's a great service that you researched std's and provide the info to your group. We don't ignore std stories so we can make informed decisions. I think some people prefer to remain ignorant for whatever reasons and don't want the information spoon fed on them, and for them, they don't have to read your postings.

 

We discuss other problems of swinging as they come up. It's impossible to cover all possibilities and we don't think we want to.

[JB 140]

Slightly different take. I vote for getting the information out there, but for a different reason.

 

I don’t think anyone out there that has considered or is in the LS is truly ignorant of the dangers, but many times when a person is only vaguely aware of a danger they tend to blow it up and make it more than what it is, sometimes to the point of irrationality, becoming a phobia.

 

When a person learns the exact nature and power of the danger, 99% of the time it is less than what they imagined.

 

Your odds of being struck by lighting in the US in your lifetime are 1:700,000 - you probably knew something like that, but did you know that only 10% of those result in death?*

 

So, in disagreement with Chicup (sorry) on this one, in reality, education about dangers (and odds) actually could put people's mind at ease in most cases.

 

*According to NOAA

Flash Facts About Lightning

[a_d_xxx 663]

We pride ourselves on understanding the risks involved in our participation in the LS. Knowledge gives us the tools to assess those risks and make informed choices about them. If we are flirting with someone, risks for STDs are not going to be high on our topics to talk about. But if you are providing a resource for your community, STD info would definitely be something we'd expect to find there.

 

STDs are a fact of life. Swinging or not. I have two daughters who are likely not sexually active now, but will be in the very near future. What I've learned about STD risk I've done so as much for myself and my partners as for them.

 

To quote Sigmund Freud: Ignorance is not bliss, ignorance is ignorance.

[mauijanedoe 1,414]

Ignorance isn't bliss, just ignorant. I think you provided a public service for folks who may not have your ability to do quality research and don't discuss the risks with their physicians. I do try to keep up with STD research, although it's sometimes a bit tough to evaluate the usefulness of data without a lot of reading.

 

As a rule, I prefer to assess risk, reevaluate when I have new information and otherwise just keep the analysis as part of my background process. That's as true for the possibility of emotional entanglements as it is for looking at company earnings reports.

[openingthedoor 21]

I'd much prefer to actually swing with a couple who was equally concerned with STD's (thus convincing me that they had a greater likelihood of keeping themselves safe). And I'd run the other way from someone espousing "ignorance is bliss."

 

Another thing is that you can at least potentially keep yourself safer by learning detailed information about STDs'. Example: I wouldn't want someone to cum in my mouth and certainly not inside me, and have figured out which condoms work, and that you should pinch the end to allow cum and hopefully avoid breakage, etc, because of the risk of HIV (very minimal with any oral but still). I also have looked at many photos of herpes and, although razer burn can look the same, I still wouldn't touch, lick or kiss someone with anything that looked concerning. And I would ask about Herpes and testing (maybe or maybe not wanting results). So someone who is informed, IMHO, might be safer overall--because they know more specifically what they should avoid and they obviously care enough to take reasonable steps to protect themselves.

[AR1547 131]

I'd much prefer to actually swing with a couple who was equally concerned with STD's (thus convincing me that they had a greater likelihood of keeping themselves safe). And I'd run the other way from someone espousing "ignorance is bliss."

 

Another thing is that you can at least potentially keep yourself safer by learning detailed information about STD's. Example: I wouldn't want someone to cum in my mouth and certainly not inside me, and have figured out which condoms work, and that you should pinch the end to allow cum and hopefully avoid breakage, etc, because of the risk of HIV (very minimal with any oral but still). I also have looked at many photos of herpes and, although razer burn can look the same, I still wouldn't touch, lick or kiss someone with anything that looked concerning. And I would ask about Herpes and testing (maybe or maybe not wanting results). So someone who is informed, IMHO, might be safer overall--because they know more specifically what they should avoid and they obviously care enough to take reasonable steps to protect themselves.

 

Five years in the lifestyle, been to many clubs and parties, and I have never seen anyone use a condom for oral sex. People who I know demand condoms for intercourse don't use them for oral.

[openingthedoor 21]

5 years in the lifestyle, been to many clubs and parties, and I have never seen anyone use a condom for oral sex. People who I know demand condoms for intercourse don't use them for oral.

 

Not sure how that is inconsistent with anything I said.

[JustAskJulie 2,595]

My take: It's your group so you set the tone. If people don't like it, they don't have to read it.

 

I would say both from personal experience and from looking at stats here over the last 15 years, that generally it does seem that when it comes to Safe Sex/ STDs most people prefer to take a "set it and forget it" attitude". They think about it initially when they jump and decide yay or nay on condom use and then just move on from there never / rarely to think about it again.

[kellimc 229]

One of the recent online chats had to do with risk management in the LS. STDs came up. One of the regular chatters was very miffed at the topic and indicated a return to the chat only when the topic was more upbeat. The reluctance to consider and manage risk is hardly confined to the LS. In medicine, at least among patients/families I deal with, there is a reluctance to write advance directives or appoint a spokesperson (power of attorney) because of magical thinking: if I write such documents I will surely need them.

 

If it was ignorance in the way of consideration of these issues, that is easily overcome. You are dealing neither with ignorance nor bliss. Rather, your group might be floating on a river that flows northward through Egypt: "De Nial".

 

I'm the person in chat who left when I saw that the subject was STD's. You are making the wrong assumption if you think I want to ignore the subject. I think about it all the time and that is probably why I have never had an STD. I simply didn't want to chat about it. I come to chat for fun and talking about STD's isn't fun.

[angelkin 1,326]

FunDayton, I think you are doing a good thing to bring STD's to the forefront of the discussion in your group. Often, I do believe that swingers choose to ignore the risks rather than educate themselves on how to mitigate them. The difference between the group here and the group you run is that here on the forum, we are generally intelligent people seeking advice and information...your group is more about the social and fun aspect and less about the conversations about situations in the lifestyle.

 

Don't take it personally and just follow what you think it right. It's your group and if people are offended then they can avoid that thread or choose to not be part of the group.

[Coupleerotic22 1,419]

In my real world job I deal with risk management everyday. So for me "Ignorance is bliss," does not compute.

 

That said I am stunned at how many people get down right frustrated/angry when discussing risk. It is almost like they think if we do not discuss risk then there are none. Or maybe more accurately they see it as looking for a reason to fail. In fact the opposite is true, the more you understand the risk, the more you know how to deal with them and are more likely to prevent/mitigate the negative outcomes.

[cplnuswing 4,713]

This is an interesting topic. I would bet the answer just depends on how you prefer to live your life, and whatever approach that is, you use the same one whether the subject is STD's from swinging, or what your next phone is going to be. Some people aren't comfortable unless they exhaustively research something, other find that takes all the fun out of it and just make a snap decision based on information already at hand, no matter how limited it is, and just go with their gut. And then others fall somewhere in the middle of that.

 

That's probably where we are, in the middle. I'm more of a researcher, she is more of a go with your gut feeling, but neither one of us on are the extremes of those two approaches. I will say I know much more about STD's now than I did when we started swinging, but that knowledge has come gradually over time, it's not something we felt like we needed to know everything there was to know before we started. We did educate ourselves to a degree right at the beginning, but then once we got to our comfortable place, then building on that knowledge became a passive thing and not something we are always actively seeking out.

[GMOFLEISURE 221]

A few thoughts...

 

Many STD have no obvious symptoms at the start. Days, weeks, or even months might pass with exposure to others occurring.

 

Condom use is relatively low, so risk of spreading is higher. Secondary preventions like immediate washing, mouthwash, etc. are not reliable & not often done.

 

Tests are only good until the next contact, then you are back to zero. Which leads me to ask, how often do you have tests done?

[GMOFLEISURE 221]

[Alura 2,775]

We approached the STD question by choosing couples who had had little, if any, recent experience outside each other. That entails some risk, but one we were willing to take.

[Pandamonium 16]

I felt the need to share my story. I started swinging when I was very young and when people were more worried about pregnancy than STD's (mindset it won't happen to me). There was a big gap of time when I did not swing and it wasn't until after I was divorced that I thought about exploring the LS as a single female. During that period of time I met someone and had a monogamous relationship. We broke up for a few months and during that time I was celibate but I don't know if he was though he claims he was. After we got back together I had reason to seek medical attention for pain I was having during intercourse. Doctor did an internal, saw something he wasn't sure of, took swabs, and sent me to a gyn (he was horrible). My doctor called me a week or so later and said my pap was abnormal and there was a chance it was pre-cancer. I was beside myself. He told me until all results were in there would be no diagnosis.

 

I had to wait another 2 weeks which seemed a lifetime. Finally I get the call and have to go and see him for a chat. He told me I had herpes. Now it might sound crazy but I was relieved that's all it was. I didn't have cancer! The hard part was knowing I had to tell my partner. I summoned up some courage and told him. His reaction was that of calm and indifference (he didn't seem surprised at all which made me think he'd not been celibate as stated). I did all kinds of research so I knew what I was dealing with and to learn the do's and dont's. Three years later he and I parted company. After awhile I wanted to get back into dating and the possibility of swinging. I was open and honest about having herpes and accepted whatever reaction/terms that were offered. Most were very understanding and I was happy to know my sex life wasn't over. Five years later I met a man on an adult website and eventually met him and started a relationship. Before we met face to face we had many conversations about swinging and the fact that I have herpes. Swinging was something that he was very interested in so we decided to give it a go. I told him that we had to disclose to potential partners the presence of herpes. He agreed. We were on adult websites and informed people who approached us. Some rejected us some didn't. He then decided he wanted to do the disclosing to the males and would leave it to them to share with their partners (if it was a couple). If a date was made it meant they were ok with the information and it would not be discussed. To be honest it should have been a red flag but I went along with it.

 

Long story short I learned this man was not who I thought he was and that he didn't always disclose, if ever. I felt sick! While I always insisted on a condom and refrained while having an outbreak I was mortified that I might have infected someone.In reality a person can get herpes anywhere on the body as well as internally (inside mouth, vagina, anus). Over the years I have had outbreaks in locations other than the first one diagnosed. I could have gotten herpes from my very first partner and it lay dormant for years and reared it's ugly head when I was in what I thought was a monogamous relationship.

 

Bottom line, if one has herpes there is really no time that is totally safe as some OB are very mild with no symptoms. As many have stated, it's a game of Russian Roulette. No one is exempt and if you think it can't happen to you you're sorely mistaken. I would like to add that I have not been in the LS for 7 years and have no plans to return nor am I sexually active.

[SW_PA_Couple 4,026]

. . . . No one is exempt and if you think it can't happen to you you're sorely mistaken. . .

Everything that you've said here is true and we should all consider carefully that there is always a chance even when we use modern medicine's best prevention methods. I am grateful that you have told this story.

[GMOFLEISURE 221]

Ignorance is certainly bliss. It's when a cold bucket of knowledge hits you in the face that the pain starts.

 

... He then decided he wanted to do the disclosing to the males and would leave it to them to share with their partners (if it was a couple). If a date was made it meant they were ok with the information and it would not be discussed. To be honest it should have been a red flag but I went along with it. Long story short I learned this man was not who I thought he was and that he didn't always disclose, if ever. ...

 

& there's the nasty part. Some of us are just dumb and happy, others are purposely duplicitous.

[Sophy 571]

We have discussed this several times between us, we also have discussed this with our most closest friends. We know the risk and we accept them.

We don't use condoms for oral sex and we bareback only with our most closest friends, people we know for years.

I think is not different than many other activities in life: take a plane, ride a bike, drive in the highway, eat food in the street, travel to new places, etc, in some level there will be always a risk.

 

For us taking that risk is worthy, we do not engage any stranger, we do take our time and we are very selective -> a lot more selective that when we were younger and single.

Again, we do understand the risk and it is not about ignoring the risk, it is that sometimes in life the only way to enjoy is not overthinking what you are currently enjoying