Thrown for a loop by wife's deception

xyzabc123 · July 16, 2013

This is my first post and I'll try to describe our situation in enough detail to get the issue across, but due to the length I'm going post the first half and then the last half in another post.

My wife (I'll call B) and I have been married for 29 years and have dabbled in the lifestyle for years. Early on we had a couple experiences, but over the last 7 or 8 years have gotten into things a bit more. We've never had a full swap with another couple, although there were some opportunities things just didn't work out for one reason or another. We have soft swapped a number of times.

She is very attractive and flirty, and really enjoys flirting with and getting the attention of guys (and sometimes ladies). I've encouraged her to flirt with guys and if the right one comes along she could offer for them to play, however only so long as I was there. We had a few occasions where we did play with another guy, some which went well and others that didn't go so well (like when he got nervous and couldn't perform).

Our sex life has been pretty darn hot, and the atmosphere of the lifestyle parties really helped, even though we didn't participate with others we would always come home and have great sex. B is fairly passive in bed but loves to please. She almost never initiates, and even when she does, it is to play with me to get me going and then lays back for me to lead. Also, she isn't very vocal in bed, doesn't really like to talk or play with herself. I seldom get any feedback from her on how things went for her, and even when I ask she tells me I was great or it was a lot of fun, but I don't get any raves and never have. I think you get the idea.

B met a guy (I'll call E) when she worked a summer at a local golf course in the snack bar. Of course guys flirted with her all the time, but E took a real liking to her. He would stay after all the other golfers left to flirt with her while she finished cleaning up. She told me about him flirting with her and some of the detail of talk of sex (which she loves to talk about) and so on.

At one point we were to meet at a friend’s house for a party, I had gotten there early to wait for when she got off work. B called and asked if E could come along, and I said that was fine, she told me he had been drinking so she was going to follow him to his house and then drive him to the party, again I said that was fine. They arrived and we all partied with the group.

Later he said he wanted to go home so she drove him. B was gone for more than an hour and others at the party were asking me if she was coming back, which she eventually did. I asked her what had happened, and she told me she had gone in his house and they had kissed, but nothing more happened. I fully believed her and had no issue with her kissing him.

There was another time she told me about when he was at her work after everyone else left and he had asked her to go into the ladies room to make out with him. I asked if she had gone, she hesitated for a moment, but then said no. I said that was probably a good idea since she was at work and there were other workers around.

E and B kept in touch with flirty emails every few months or so, and we saw him at a lifestyle event one time, but nothing more than that which I am aware of. His name came up a couple of times as a playmate, but timing didn't work out.

A year ago he texted on a Friday morning when we were already planning to go out that evening, so she invited him along with my blessing. They texted throughout the day which she told me the gist of, later we met, had a few drinks and the offer was made for him to come home and play, again which I supported.

We got to our house and they quickly got busy. I confess I had a little too much to drink to recognize it, but she was a tiger initiating things and practically tearing his clothes off. She attacked him, moaned as they played, arched her back, put her legs up with curled toes as he did her. At one point she was vocal telling him how great it felt and played with herself when he asked her. I don't think there was anything she wouldn't have done for him.

She didn't orgasm, but screwed his brains out. After he left we went to bed and had some of the hottest sex ever, we did it for hours and I ended up cumming twice. When we were done she ran and got her phone to text him and tell him how awesome he was, how thrilled she was and he was to sleep tight.

The next morning they started texting again with her telling him he was the best she ever had next to her husband, then they went on to talk about their favorite positions and so forth. At one point she told him he had hit all the right spots and other details like this. He asked when he could have her again, and she told him soon.

Later I was curious (and turned on) by some of the banter, so I checked her phone where I read the texts. The day before they had a hot and heavy back and forth talking about what he wanted to do to her which was not a big deal. However, there was an exchange where he asked 'What does your husband know about our past? I want to make sure we have our stories straight'. She responded 'Nothing more than kissing and touching', he said, 'Ok, cool!'.

It was then that I started feeling sick about this. First, I was pretty jealous that she had ravaged him and reacted in ways she had seldom, if ever, had done in our years of marriage. Secondly, I asked her about the 'their past' comment, but she blew it off saying she didn't know why she had responded that way.

Well, you can likely see what happened next. I started to ask about the times she told me about before. Had she gone in the ladies room? Even though she told me at the time she hadn't, she now said she couldn't remember. Had they done something after the party when she was gone for an hour? Again, she couldn't remember and the story changed a bit. She did tell me he had changed while she waited for him to go to the party, and may have kissed, but nothing more. B also told me about a time they sat in the car and made out after she got off work one evening, but I didn't remember her telling me that before (but to be fair it was 5 years earlier, so I understand both of our memories being less than optimal).

So, this has caused a big rift between us. I'm jealous, not of the sex, but that she initiated, was vocal, and in general gave him a hotter time than she has for me over the years. I'm also suspicious that they did more than I'm being told, and that the close relationship they had was more than I expected. B got to the point where she would get upset if we tried to talk about it, so has shut down with the topic off limits now.

For weeks I couldn't sleep and am really torn up by all this. I feel a lack of trust that I'm not getting the whole story, and the fact that I thought we were close enough to talk through anything like this, but realize we can't, shows that we have some other issues to work through.

She tells me that even though she can't remember details, nothing happened more than light touching and kissing. There was no oral sex or intercourse of any kind. I want to believe her, and even if she didn't do any of these things, they did have an emotional relationship that was far closer than I expected.

We've dropped out of the lifestyle completely, and our sex life is a mere flicker of what it once was. Of course, any hope I may have of getting that same treatment E got is not going to happen since this is hanging over our heads. Since I condoned her sleeping with him, she is mad at me for being mad about what happened.

My questions are: I've read where some have had a similar experience of the lady going crazy for a guy and giving him more than her husband, guys has this happened to you? If so, how have you handled it? Ladies, has your husband do this with a lady?

Ladies, I get that any new experience can be very hot, but have you given a playmate a more wild experience than your husband, or does your husband get the best you have to offer?

We are close otherwise and are not seriously talking about divorce, but even after a year’s time it still is an issue between us and we still can't talk about. She is miffed at why I feel the way I do, and gets mad when I try to tell her my view. She tells me she reacted how she felt, which means she was genuine in her feelings, which is almost worse than if she told me she had put on an act.

I've tried to let it go, and she tells me she isn't going to feel guilty or apologize for anything (I haven't asked her to) as I encouraged and condoned this. This is what I wanted and I just need to 'get over it'.

Let me know of any questions and any advice on how we can move forward is welcomed.

Gordo · July 16, 2013

Has anything happened in the last year. Any suspicions? Is she still seeing him at work or elsewhere?

mauijanedoe · July 16, 2013

My questions are: I've read where some have had a similar experience of the lady going crazy for a guy and giving him more than her husband, guys has this happened to you? If so, how have you handled it? Ladies, has your husband do this with a lady?

Ladies, I get that any new experience can be very hot, but have you given a playmate a more wild experience than your husband, or does your husband get the best you have to offer?

We are close otherwise and are not seriously talking about divorce, but even after a year’s time it still is an issue between us and we still can't talk about. She is miffed at why I feel the way I do, and gets mad when I try to tell her my view. She tells me she reacted how she felt, which means she was genuine in her feelings, which is almost worse than if she told me she had put on an act.

I've tried to let it go, and she tells me she isn't going to feel guilty or apologize for anything (I haven't asked her to) as I encouraged and condoned this. This is what I wanted and I just need to 'get over it'.

Let me know of any questions and any advice on how we can move forward is welcomed.

You're not going to move forward until you, indeed, let it go. Honestly, some experiences are better than others on a physical level and the possibility of that is always there when you swing.

xyzabc123 · July 16, 2013

Has anything happened in the last year. Any suspicions? Is she still seeing him at work or elsewhere?

She did text him for a few weeks afterwards, but then we decided that due to the issue I was having it was best to cut off any further communication. To my knowledge there has been no further communication and she has had no issue with not hearing from him. Also, he is married so doesn't want any issues on his side, plus he is a nice guy and gentleman, so I trust there hasn't been any contact.

I haven't asked her and won't at this point since it's been so long.

JB · July 16, 2013

Nope, it is not about her being hotter for this other guy, it is about the dishonesty surrounding it.

If the facts were in the open from the beginning, the idea of her being hot for him might be a big turn-on for you right now.

Gordo · July 16, 2013

Nope, it is not about her being hotter for this other guy, it is about the dishonesty surrounding it.

This is right on and until she comes clean it won't end and you won't heal. My personal style would be to sit her down and tell her that in no uncertain terms and none of this "I don't remember bullshit".

You say you haven't talked the D word but what kind of life is it always wondering. If not about the past then what happens in the future. Him? Others?

funcoupledayton · July 16, 2013

I think your best bet is to let it go and try to move on. She's with you, not him.

I really wouldn't try to get all the details. What will the benefit be? It's over.

It's sounds like you've established that going forward you are not going to swing. If you do again in the future, make sure you have a clear understanding of what is permissible as far as contact with other guys.

As far as acting differently with other people. I think that happens a lot. I am sometimes much more forward and more vocal. It helps with new partners because they don't know what I like like my husband does. I was not able to orgasm from penetration until I learned with other partners.

latin2012 · July 16, 2013

I think you are focusing on the wrong thing here. Most will agree that the point of swing is to have a great time and enjoying the experience. I think the focus here should be, was she "playing" before you both agreed, if she was then she was cheating even if you ok'd it after the fact. I don't think the out come would have been the same if you would have found out she was playing BEFORE you said it was ok.

xyzabc123 · July 17, 2013

I think you are focusing on the wrong thing here. Most will agree that the point of swing is to have a great time and enjoying the experience. I think the focus here should be, was she "playing" before you both agreed, if she was then she was cheating even if you ok'd it after the fact. I don't think the out come would have been the same if you would have found out she was playing BEFORE you said it was ok.

Yes, I have to say, had I known they had the close relationship I wouldn't have OK'd a full blown encounter maybe opting for a soft session without intercourse to see how things went. What is obvious is that they did have a deeper connection than I expected and is why I was thrown for a loop.

As most in the lifestyle I felt we had this tight bond and trust where I would be told all that happened, but now I'm not sure I've gotten the full story so now I'm left to wonder what happened. Part of what we lost was this trust.

On another comment about this being in the past, so knowing what happened is not important, I feel that if she was fully open we could work through it, the not knowing leaves open the questions so we, or I, am struggling to get past this.

From my perspective, did she do more? How and why did they get so close? When she is fairly passive with me and others we've played with, why was she so comfortable with him that she gave her all to him? She was interested in pursuing additional encounters with him, where others she never seemed interested in playing with again.

From her perspective, she doesn't want to play with anyone as she doesn't trust how I might react. Which I can understand and putting myself in her position I wouldn't want to play with anyone else either. This does show that she is with me and wants to stay with me, so that is a big thing.

Thanks for all the inputs, they are helpful and "talking" through this is helping me to put the proper context around this to go forward.

xyzabc123 · July 17, 2013

Nope, it is not about her being hotter for this other guy, it is about the dishonesty surrounding it.

If the facts were in the open from the beginning, the idea of her being hot for him might be a big turn on for you right now.

Yes, I have to say, that while it was going on it was very hot. However, had I known what I know now, it might never have happened. The catch-22 here is that she found someone she got close enough with to really let go, but too close for me to feel comfortable. Again, if there weren't the questions of what happened prior, I may have gotten comfortable so the play may have continued and would have been a huge turn-on... It was after all, what I wanted and encouraged.

xyzabc123 · July 17, 2013

I think your best bet is to let it go and try to move on. She's with you, not him.

I really wouldn't try to get all the details. What will the benefit be? It's over.

It's sounds like you've established that going forward you are not going to swing. If you do again in the future, make sure you have a clear understanding of what is permissible as far as contact with other guys.

As far as acting differently with other people. I think that happens a lot. I am sometimes much more forward and more vocal. It helps with new partners because they don't know what I like like my husband does. I was not able to orgasm from penetration until I learned with other partners.

Hi and thanks for your reply. Certainly if we do play again, which I don't see happening in this lifetime, there would be no times when she would do anything with anyone without my being there. Note that when we've played together there has never been any issues.

Some questions back to you. How did your husband react and feel when you orgasmed through penetration with someone other than him? Was he there and saw it? Or, did you tell him afterwards? Did you describe how awesome it was? Did you let the play partner know he had accomplished something no one else had? Sorry for some many questions, but your situation is much like ours and it will be very helpful to know.

bbarnsworth · July 18, 2013

For what it's worth; my wife is very vocal in bed. The swing partners she's been with have been appreciative of how vocal she is. It's quite wonderful in my opinion. But, when we first got into full swap swinging, I was rather surprised that the sounds she made, especially on first being penetrated by another man, were _different_ than the sounds she made with me. I've become rather astonished that some how the sounds she makes sounds different with each guy. She has no explanation for this. It just 'is'. But, while I can't say it bothered me at first, I was very curious "why" at first. Sometimes there is no explanation. Sex is a physical act. Its connection to conscious thought is sometimes tenuous at best.

You said "too close for me to feel comfortable". I'm curious about this, as I've seen some thoughts similar to this from other husbands. Understand, when your wife is having sex with someone else she's doing something that is as physically close and intimate as you can physically get. She has another man literally inside of her. What is "too close" in such a scenario? If you mean more in the sense of emotional; I can understand that. Some couples have a rule of playing only once or twice with any given person for this reason. My wife and I don't; the most she's had sex with another man in swinging has been a couple of dozen times. She thoroughly enjoyed it, they developed an emotional connection (though short of 'love' in the traditional romantic sense) and the sex got better and better as time went on. We felt this was a good thing, rather than a bad one. But, we have absolute trust. You don't.

I agree with others that trying to get the details out now might work against you. Because you lack trust at this point, whether she tells you the truth or not you won't believe it unless it matches exactly to your preconceived notions of what happened to them. There's no way to really know the truth here since you lack trust of what she is saying. With what you have written here, there's cheating written all over it. It sounds very much like she cheated on you. But, this is your perspective we're getting here, and not hers. To you, I'm sure it seems a legitimate view. Hers probably seems legitimate to her. Finding your way through that? Unlikely at this point.

So how do you move forward? Here's one possible way; acknowledge there's a serious communication gap between you and her. Make it clear you're focusing on the future, not the past. Tell her you're going to stop questioning the past, and that you want the trust back moving forward. Complete utter open honesty in everything from now on. Not that there was anything not honest before. Tell her you don't want to dwell on the past, just that you want to move forward.

You stated that you're not in the lifestyle now. This is good. With the current rift, being in the lifestyle right now would be a very bad idea. You've got to figure this out, even if you never get back into swinging. Time, patience, love, and being an open book will work. But, give it time. Remember, as you have noted, she is with _you_, not anyone else. That means a million times more than anything she might have felt or reacted to in that guy.

xyzabc123 · July 18, 2013

Hi bb, Many thanks for your very thoughtful and well written response, it is extremely helpful and appreciated.

In my case it went from my wife not being vocal at all, either with me or others she has played with, to being very vocal with just this guy. However there were a number of other things other than just being vocal she did with and for him that she doesn't do for me. It was the first time they played, at least to my knowledge, and I really don't think they had intercourse previously, but I'm not ruling out other play. The bottom line here is that somehow she became so comfortable with him that she let loose even more than she does or has done with me.

Yes, the too close for comfort comment was about the connection, both emotional and physical, again because she had some kind of crazy chemistry with him that we apparently don't have. I really felt like, and she even told me, that she is not 'able' to initiate, or be vocal, or any of the other things she doesn't do with me, yet I have real life proof she can and will in the right situation or with the right guy she has a certain type of connection with. Do I think it was love? I doubt it as they didn't communicate for long stretches of time, and although she said she would have liked to see him again, she easily gave up communicating with him once the impact to me was fully apparent.

I fully believe that had this continued she would have had even better sex with him as they both became even more comfortable, and as that was not something I could handle I put a stop to it. I have to say that at first I tried to tell myself that this was just sex and no different than other experiences we had had, but it was so different and along with some of the cheating signs, I just couldn't get my head around it. I even tried to "control" my feelings, and rationalize it in my head that this is what I wanted and had encouraged (which is her view, "you asked for this"), so I shouldn't be so affected. But I was just not able to control my feelings, the sickness in the pit of my stomach and loss of sleep, not to mention what we lost in the process, the trust, communication, my confidence, the lifestyle we had been involved in for so long, the sex and the feeling that I had lost my best friend.

From a lifestyle point of view I think this could have been a case to live out multiple fantasies which we both desired and would have enjoyed, something else that was lost based on my reaction. We always enjoyed and were welcomed at any event, and the guys always gave her a lot of attention which she and the guys really enjoyed. It was a nice boost to her ego being flirted with by so many guys. We still get invitations to events and parties, but don't attend for obvious reasons.

I've come to the conclusion that I will never know the full details of what may have happened previously. As you note, even if she does tell me more detail, will I trust and believe it? And, if she told me they had played and didn't tell me until now, that may be the stick that breaks the camels back and cause us to break up. There is always the chance that she is telling me the truth and nothing more happened that what I was already told, and if that is the case then I am surely in the wrong and causing the problems.

Your comments on how to move forward are what we are attempting. I've not brought up what may have happened in the past for nearly a year. We know there is the lack of trust on both sides as I pointed out in my post. The communication is getting better with talks that we've been having every so often. Slowly we're working through this and are not putting ourselves in any situations where trust can even be an issue, however that is a poor substitute for having trust, and at this point I wouldn't trust her to be in the type of situations where I fully trusted her before, like being with other guys when I'm not around.

To her credit, she has been very careful not to allow herself to be in these situations and to avoid any appearance of flirting or coming on to another guy. I'm sure this has been hard for her as this is her nature and guys are naturally attracted to her as she is so flirty and fun to be around, so she is doing her part. She also loves sex, and while we've continued to make love, it has been very vanilla and really just to take care of our needs. I've told her that I am open to whatever she wants to do, just tell me what she wants or initiate it, but she tells me she can't do either, so we're back to the problem that she did both with enthusiasm for this guy, but not with me . . .

Your last paragraph says it well. She has told me all along I am the one she wants to be with. We have such a great relationship outside of the lifestyle as we have so much in common, have built a wonderful life together, have kids, are in sync with goals and work well together on so many levels. So the lifestyle is not something we need. As I posted, the catch-22 is that she won't even feel like trying to act like she did with this guy for me because of this hanging over our heads, and even if she did, would I think it was an act to do what I wanted instead of being genuine as it seemed to be with the guy. I need to get my mojo back and come to grips that she may not be into me in the sexual way that she could be with another guy, but that as a package I am the one she wants to be with. As she has said, "I want my husband back".

Again, thank you for your response. There is no one I can talk to about this. Our lifestyle friends know something is going on, but we don't want to bring our drama to them, and there is no one else we can really open up about this to. So, having this resource is amazingly helpful.

sunbuckus · July 18, 2013

Hi, xyzabc and welcome to the forum! When I first came upon your post, I didn't know how to respond because I couldn't get a grip on what might be the root of the problem. But for some reason, I kept seeing similarities between your post and the post where the wife had fantastic sex with a playmate and he was worried that sex with him would pale in comparison.

Perhaps I'm wrong (and I'm wrong often!) but from what you've written about what your wife has said, how there is no longer any communication between herself and the playmate, and how she is still coming home to you every night...I'm starting to wonder if this is something that is within you that you have to contemplate, explore, and learn from. You, yourself, said that you are jealous and distrustful and I would throw in some insecurity as well. Unfortunately, these are emotions and feelings that you have to come to terms with and learn that you don't need to be.

I wish there was a magic formula that anyone could use to get over those feelings but there isn't. You have to determine that path. Maybe some meditation will help. Maybe researching (whether here on the forum or elsewhere) will help. Maybe there's a way you can have an open, honest, non-judging, non-blaming, heart-to-heart conversation with your wife. In the end, jealousy, insecurity, and distrust is only something that you can fix. You have to take that leap of faith to trust your wife and believe what she tells you at face value. You have to take that leap of faith to be confident in yourself and your relationship to overcome the insecurity that something as fickle as great sex will break up something as great as your relationship. And perhaps you have to consider whether you were uncomfortable and jealous about your wife's happiness and enjoyment. Contrary to what society wants us to think, one person cannot be everything to another person.

Gordo · July 18, 2013

In defense of your wife there is one fact that hasn't been mentioned yet. You have kids. Traditionally husbands and wives SEVERELY restrain themselves from making noise during sex because of the kids. In our case after 25 years you are totally conditioned to doing it quietly. That's your experience and you will automatically revert to it. Think about the story about the trained flea. By putting a piece of glass over top of it they don't jump as high. They become conditioned and even when you remove the glass they still don't jump as high.

The first time we did a hotel my wife was screaming down the place. i couldn't miss her and she was in the room next door.

It was obvious she was having a great time and it bothered me because, of course, she never screamed like that with me.....but when I thought about it I realized that when we started it was like that and somewhere along the way the noise died. You can probably guess when. It also made me realize that I had been restraining MYSELF for years from making noise and dammit when it happened it felt good just to let it all out.

Just a thought

mauijanedoe · July 18, 2013

sunbuckus said:

Hi, xyzabc and welcome to the forum! When I first came upon your post, I didn't know how to respond because I couldn't get a grip on what might be the root of the problem. But for some reason, I kept seeing similarities between your post and the post where the wife had fantastic sex with a playmate and he was worried that sex with him would pale in comparison.

I thought the same thing. Further, I thought the real issue, the one that burned then and continues to burn the OP, far more than issues of trust/mistrust, is that his wife was much more expressive with Mr. Playmate than she is with him or anyone else.

OP, there will always be someone with a bigger dick and/or the ability to make your wife feel better in the moment than you do. This is true whether you swing or stay monogamous for the rest of your marriage and I'll say it again to make sure it really penetrates: There is someone out there who is more skilled than you. You can, to protect yourself, ignore that fact. You can, as you've been doing, continue to torture yourself with the thought (and the ego-salving corollary that there was something between them before that made her more "comfortable," about which you have very little actual evidence, and that is why she was so expressive). There are, in fact, myriad ways to deal with this. What you cannot do is make it not true that there are men out there who can, in the moment, make your wife feel better than you do.

I'm guessing that acceptance of this would make your mistrust and mental rehashing of this event almost a non-issue, which is why I'm harping on it. Your wife is a very patient, understanding woman who has pretty much gone out of her way to make certain that your self esteem takes no more hits, even though I'm guessing she's pretty sure that you no longer trust her or feel the same way about her, which isn't particularly loving on your part.

xyzabc123 · July 18, 2013

Hello and thanks for your post. She has been with others that have had bigger equipment than I, are better looking, younger, etc. but never acted like she did with this guy. Also, I'm not small, am in good shape, decent looking and have been able to keep her well satisfied all along the way. So, I contend this is not about the sex but the way she acted and reacted, there was something different about this guy.

A good short example is that after he left we went to bed and had some world class sex, twice, for a few hours. Remember, he hadn't even made her orgasm, but I gave her several multiple orgasms and completely satisfied her. After we were done she jumped out of bed to get her cell phone then texted him telling him what a great fuck he was and to sleep tight. They then continued texting the next day to tell each other how awesome it was . . . I didn't even get a thank you or her saying a word about the great sex we had just had (which is not unusual for her, so I sort of expect not getting any feedback).

Hopefully you can see where to me this is not all about the sex, but instead about the connection they had and how she doesn't have that same connection with me. Maybe it has been that way all along and I am just blind, but I really thought that she doesn't give compliments, initiate sex or do the other stuff. But, maybe she just doesn't do that stuff with me . . . I do feel like an old pair of comfortable shoes in all of this.

Going into this I fully expected her to have some sex that would be better than I give her, or for her to be attracted to someone more than me from a sexual perspective, I've even talked to some of the guys about what turns her on and how to make her orgasm, so if this was just about her having a better sexual experience I feel I was prepared for that and it wouldn't be an issue. I really was wanting her to have a great and fun time.

To reply to some of the other posts, I agree that it is I who has to fix this. I need to get past this and move on. As has been said a few times, she is with me and that does count for more than any experience, or what may or may not have happened in the past.

I'm a very secure guy and a very confident individual, enough that I let her go meet guys, roam the swinger parties without me and so forth without my even considering she might do something and not tell me about it. Did this hit my confidence? Yes. But more in the way that I don't know if I can trust any longer, or how things will work from here. From an insecurity standpoint, I never felt like I would lose her, she has been very stead in that she will stand by me and I have told her I will stand by her. He is a total gentleman, looked to me for direction/permission plus is married with a family, so there was never any question about them running off together or the like.

On the comment about kids being around so not being very vocal, our kids are no longer in the house, and we travel a lot to hotels, plus even have an RV that my wife calls our 'love nest', so not being vocal due to the kids being around, or even being used to being around, really doesn't apply here. Keep in mind that her being vocal was only one of many things she did for him that she doesn't do for me, so that in itself is not the biggest issue.

In the end many of you are right. I need to deal with this and move forward. And, mauijanedoe, you are absolutely correct, she has stood by me through all of this plus been very patient (less so at times, but understandably so) and so I need to recognize that and move on. Part of why I posted this was to get all of your help to get it sorted out so I can put it behind us and I'm working hard to do just that.

Thanks again to all!

Sensualbicouple · July 18, 2013

After reading your question OP and the replies, I just wanted to wish you well and hope you get things sorted now and for the future.

Guy1964 · July 18, 2013

I just want to say I appreciate your candor about your feelings. I've learned a lot from following your posts and the replies.

sunbuckus · July 19, 2013

For some reason, I get this feeling that there seems to be a thought process where if the sex is good, she will act in a specific way. If it is bad, then it will be a different way that she will react. If she reacts in a way that is not relate-able to the two previously known reactions, then something is amiss.

We all know that we're all unique and perhaps we react somewhat uniquely according to each person. A group of reactions can look similar to the point of appearing to be the same reaction. Just like there is not one snowflake that is exactly like another, everyone has sex differently because it's not just how they move, what they are packing...but the entire being which includes their personality, outward appearance, and mannerisms. Yes, perhaps the sex was greater because they might have had a more emotional connection than what she might be used to...but as swingers, this should have been on the list of things to talk about--the possibility of emotional connections with playmates and how comfortable you two are about it and what you will do about it if such a situation arises or even how to prevent it from happening if you both are uncomfortable with the idea. And you two should have been able to talk about both of your feelings like adults and resolving them instead of having it cause a rift...which sounds like there's an underlying problem that isn't being dealt with.

Throughout your thread, you are fixated about how vocal she was. Instead of being turned on by it or even just being happy that she is being pleasured, it makes you worry and green-eyed. Maybe you prepped yourself in how to deal with playmates that were better looking or bigger than you but you didn't prepare yourself for the possibility that she could react completely different from how she reacts with you. As many have stated, swinging can shine the light on cracks within a relationship. Perhaps this is one for you two even though you have been swinging for years. Being experienced doesn't mean that you've handled everything possible...it just means that you've learned how to handle the rough weather so far to make it this far. "Old" swingers can and do learn new things as the years go on. Sometimes they might even re-learn lessons they've learned before because they have changed as people or they have forgotten.

One other thing, this playmate (E) sounds like he was a vanilla from the get-go. Many long-time posters (or experienced swingers) warn against "seducing" vanillas into the LS or doing anything swinger-like with them. They might not be one the same page. They might not understand or know of the LS. They might have the idea of "stealing the partner away" because they are not informed that the couple is in this together and the vanilla might be under the impression that the partner cannot satisfy their spouse. You also stated that he is/was married. Don't you wonder how "on board" his wife is to all of this? For all you know, she could be kept in the dark and the two of you have caused him to have an extramarital affair.

xyzabc123 · July 19, 2013

Hi sunbuckus and other posters, thanks for all your comments and wishes.

You bring up a good point, in your example perhaps if she had sex with 20 guys she might react like this with 5 of them, but be like she always has been with me and others for the other 15. It makes sense, but will not be something we will test for obvious reasons.

I respectfully disagree that I am fixated on the vocal part, yes it is one aspect, but there is a lot more to this than her just being vocal. I will note other responses have keyed in on just the vocal part, so my responses to them may be where you feel I am fixated on just this. If it was just the vocal part I feel confident I would have reacted as you say by being happy she had fun and that she had learned something new. The vocal is just one part, actually a minor aspect of this, the other parts were a number of other things during the act (which for sake of space and relevance I didn't spell all of them out), but as important was the part about what I knew about their past and her response to that, plus the ongoing texts where she lavished attention and praise on him which is very much outside of her normal responses.

I feel I have to come to grips with the idea that she is with me for many practical reasons, such as financial security, family, companionship and the mess it would make for us to divorce, but I don't think I can ever expect to have the same level of passion and experience she showed E.

The bottom line here is that the sum-of-the-parts shows they had a close relationship, possibly even doing things I am not aware of (which by any definition is cheating). I do agree that this has 'shined the light' on some other flaws in our relationship, and that is why we've dropped out of the lifestyle, likely forever.

On your last comment about E. He originally told B that his wife was OK with him playing around, but just didn't want to know or hear about it. He also told B that his wife plays around and he likes hearing about it when they have sex, something I could relate to (but not any more). We have seen him at lifestyle events, so he is playing with others and is not what I would consider vanilla.

We are very careful, with my wife being even more sensitive, to not helping someone have an extramarital affair. We have even turned down some guys who have told us their wives didn't know about what they were doing. While E told B in their conversations about his wife not caring, the night we met him he did say that his wife didn't know and that he has some "indiscretions" once in a while. Even with this B wanted to go through with it and is yet another example where E got this special treatment because of her desire for him.

Whether he told the truth about his wife or not we will never know, but with the variety of relationship situations in the lifestyle, it may very well be as he says.

With all this input and feedback I know I need to just let it go and start over. It has already been a long hard journey, and it will continue to be long and hard (no pun intended) going forward, but one I need to make and lead. Our lifestyle days are behind us and we'll have to see what things will look like in the future as we're both committed to making our marriage work, so at least we still have that.

Again, many thanks to everyone for helping me get this out in a safe and supportive environment.

ZAY · July 21, 2013

It is beyond me why so many posters are trying to convince you that you are the problem here but based on your post it was her changes in behavior and protocol that you are reacting to.

You need the truth about what happened in order to heal. She should NOT be telling you to just 'get over it'. I have a question, do they work together? If so, are you sure nothing is going on and if so how can you be.? You seem to be a thoughtful person so I doubt that you are overreacting. The easiest thing would be to sweep this under the rug too many people in this lifestyle seem to be willing to do this. Do not take the easy route, continue to stand up for yourself. Kudos on putting your relationship first and putting an end to this other guy. I'm sure you love your wife but you have to love yourself more. Good luck.

xyzabc123 · July 22, 2013

Hi Zay, Thanks for your response and your input. You do seem to get to get my viewpoint. No, they never worked together, and except for the occasional text they didn't communicate on a regular basis (to my knowledge). I've asked them both to stop communicating, and to my knowledge they stopped nearly a year ago which I do trust them both enough to think there has been none. We did see him at an occasional lifestyle event, but since we've stopped go to them this has not occurred in the last year either. I do believe my wife wants to work through this and is loyal enough that she has not tried to communicate with him. She did say that at one point that if we broke up she would connect with him for a booty call since they had such a connection, but that was purely theoretical.

It has been my view that if I knew all that went on, or at least had credible detail to know nothing went on, then I could put it in the past and move on. It is the not knowing that has been the toughest. With this topic being off the table to even discuss it continues to nags at me, and shows that we have a communication issue if nothing else.

As an update, we have had a couple good conversations lately (although the topic of what she did with him remains off limits), likely due to my working to sort through this will all of you, and that has helped. We are looking towards the future and had the first real barn burning sex session in nearly a year over the weekend, so that is a sliver of light towards healing.

We will see if the continued healing opens up the path for more discussions and if there is a chance we can revisit what may have happened with her being less defensive about it. I'm not confident that this will happen as she has said she is done talking about it and it is done and over with from her perspective.

Again, many thanks to all on the board who have helped me work through this!

Gordo · July 22, 2013

Why are you letting her put this topic off limits? Just because she behaves badly when it is brought up...it seems to make you cave in and apparently that is what she wants. For healing you need a 50/50 sharing and that means open and honest discussion with full disclosure. Nothing else will EVER heal you.

sunbuckus · July 22, 2013

It has been my view that if I knew all that went on, or at least had credible detail to know nothing went on, then I could put it in the past and move on. It is the not knowing that has been the toughest. With this topic being off the table to even discuss it continues to nags at me, and shows that we have a communication issue if nothing else.

One of the problems with this is the trust (or lack thereof) that you hold in regards to your wife. Whether or not she has told you the complete truth about what happened isn't going to change what happened in the past. If she has told you everything (as far as you know right now) then you distrust what occurred. If she hasn't told you everything but tells you everything, will you really trust that she's told you everything? Bottom line is that you can never be 100% certain of what happened because you were not there in person with your own eyes to see what happened. Believe me when I tell you, I know what feelings and thoughts are going through your mind. Mr. Sun had past indiscretions and I found out about them...on two different occasions I would ask him question after question but all the information I accumulated didn't make the distrustful feelings go away. Trust had to be slowly and painfully rebuilt...and it just took time and the leap of faith that I had to take to trust in him again.

If she really had a close relationship with him...who did she pick to be with at the end of the day?

You.

She has chosen you to be with. Not him. Does anything else really matter right now? Wanting to go back to rehash past mistakes or pain is like continuing to pick at a scab. If you pick at it, it won't heal. If she has told you all of the truth, then she sees that talking about the past isn't going to help you two to heal. If she hasn't told you the complete truth, she's still with you and sees that going back into the past isn't going to help the relationship either. Talking (or nagging) about the past when there isn't much trust continues to erode the foundation of the relationship and continues to show your partner that trust might never be rebuilt. If she begins to feel that way, she might start to detach from you even more.

You have to make the decision: Do you love her, even after all of this and what may have happened? Are you willing to work through this? That was the crux of the matter for me. I may have absolutely hated what Mr. Sun did and possibly wanted to slap him silly until I felt better (I knew that doing such a thing wouldn't really) but I asked myself the question: Do I still love him? And I did. As hard as it was in the moment to be around him physically, I still knew I wanted to be with him...in our relationship. To continue being his wife, to share a home with him, and to continue raising our children under one roof. I took that big step and told him that I forgave him. I may not have forgotten but I forgave him and we had to work through it.

With that said, you both still need to work on your communication skills with each other. Perhaps in time, when trust has been re-established, communication is stronger, non-judgmental, and open...perhaps you two can revisit the past after the wound has completely healed. Perhaps in the future, the feelings that you both are feeling right now won't be present and the situation could be examined with an un-biased eye.

D&D · July 23, 2013

You have a lot of advice here and lots of blame being tossed around as well. I'm sure there is blame to go around... However I don't think blaming you or your wife, or telling you to just get over it is particularly helpful. I speak here from my own experience. I'm not going to go over any details as those are relevant. What is relevant is how i was a able to move on: first off, There was no way I could move on and get over what my wife did until we sat down and went over the whole event. It wasn't that I needed to hear what happened, I already knew. But I needed her to hear and to say it and come to terms with how what she did affected me. The change in her as she came to terms with what happened was palpable. The result was an amazing evening of reconnecting, rebuilding, and coming to know each other in a way we hadn't.

Secondly she needed to hear from me that I was devoted to her and that what I wanted was to get over what happened. Part of what prevented her from really talking about the situation was that she thought I was looking to get in an argument or to get info to use against her.

For sure our two situations aren't identical, however what is similar is your and my need to get over what happened. It's going to take both of you to talk your way through this. Until you both do that it's going to continue to eat at you.

Lastly, over the last year and half of being a member of this board it seems I often read about couples where one member finds a special connection with someone they met while swinging. Often the posts from other members of the forum can be judgmental as though the same couldn't happen to them. How often do we read something like "fuck but don't make love". As if it were just that simple... With 99 percent of my partners it is no problem to just fuck, but then it just takes that one partner that is special doesn't it? We all need to face the truth that connections happen even between the hard-nosed-conservative-classic swinger set! Recognizing this and working through it when it happens is what is important. Lucky for you, it sounds to me like your wife wants to work through this...

mauijanedoe · July 23, 2013

Years ago, I met a man. It was an instantaneous, deep, mutual connection that meant a great deal to both of us. My husband was convinced we were having an affair and nothing I said would change his mind. For two years, he questioned me, used a private detective, put spyware on my computer to capture keystrokes and told me over and over that if I just told him about the affair, every bit of it, he would let it go, but not knowing meant he couldn't trust me.

I finally divorced him, the other man is still my best friend and we still haven't had an affair.

I'm probably the last person in the world to believe that being certain of something makes it true. But I'm pretty sure that beating a dead horse ruins relationships.

D&D · July 23, 2013

Beating a dead horse ruins almost as many relationships as the rot and fester that grows underneath a veneer of everything is OK. The OP isn't spying on his wife or distrusting her. Everything is not OK there is a festering sore that needs to be healed. Telling the OP to just get over it isn't going to heal anything. It's not even putting a bandaid over it.

JustAskJulie · July 23, 2013

She broke your trust and has yet to make an effort to earn it back by being honest with you.

That said, did you tell her that you saw that text? If so, what was her response to that? If not, why not? How can you expect her to be honest, if you aren't being honest?

xyzabc123 · July 23, 2013

Once again, thanks to all for taking your time to discuss my issue and provide help.

There are a number of points I'll cover here to address some of the concerns and questions brought up.

First, I thought we had this incredibly strong marriage. Strong enough to delve into the swinger lifestyle. We still have a strong marriage, strong enough to get through this, however the amount of time it takes is the issue here. It is my feeling that if we can clear the air we can accelerate the healing. In the meantime I want everyone to know that we are getting along pretty well, especially lately with a couple talks we've had. While not nearly as well as before this (which was really amazing!), we are a loving committed couple who have both decided to work past this and to heal. I am very appreciative she chose me and wants to be with me, so that element is not lost in this discussion.

What would I like and think will make the healing faster? If we can get to the point where we can talk about this without either of us getting emotional and upset, then I would like for her to tell me from her heart what happened, or that nothing happened, but from her heart and as open and honest as she can be. We've been married for 29 years, I sort of know when I might not be getting the full story, not an accusation or excuse for her, but the last times we talked about this she got very upset and emotional, so I do think that may have been why the story changed and there were details she couldn't remember. So, to one of the questions about why I am letting her put this off limits, I think we need to get to the point where we can talk about this without the emotion. I believe this will come in time...

I do trust her now, partly as we're not in the lifestyle, but also as we've been working through this. Will it be in the back of mind that she could contact this guy when I am out of town on a business trip? Sure. In the past I would have encouraged her to flirt and have fun with another guy while I was gone as I just knew she would tell me everything and it was a big turn-on. Now I am sure she will stay home and not do anything that would even put her in a position to have this occur. Again, one of the big changes and something I see as her respecting me and my wishes. Net-net, this is not a case of where I am spying on her, or dis-trusting her "looking" for evidence of her continued betrayal. We have a very good relationship other than these open questions, but manage to work around them in the day to day life we lead together.

To another question, yes, she knows I read the texts. We had no secrets from each other and so there is no reason either of us would hesitate to read texts on the others phone. I asked her right away, "What does this mean E wanted to know what I knew about your past together so you could get your stories straight?". As I posted, she replied "Nothing more than talk and kissing". I asked why she responded in that way? Why didn't she say something like "I tell my husband everything", or, "What do you mean? All we did was touch and kiss.", instead she told me "I don't know why I responded that way. But nothing happened." Knowing that she is usually quite precise in her words and meaning, this seemed to me like the smoking gun of an affair, but it could be as she has said, that she just fired off a response in that way and it was not written well. If she wasn't trying to hide anything she may not have even thought about how she said it. Again, a big open question to me that I would like to work through . . .

Did I expect she would find a guy she would get so into and have such a physical and emotional bond with? No. I thought that this swinger stuff was about casual recreational sex. New, variety, exciting and fun, yes, I was prepared for all of those. To have the possibility there was something more in the past I didn't know about? No. I wasn't prepared for that. To have the "relationship" on-going with her going overboard with compliments and talking about he great it was, when they could get back together for more sex and the other stuff? No. I wasn't prepared for that.

We had played a number of times and it was your typical swinger stuff, the 99 out of 100 experiences as one poster notes, so there was no issue and it was very hot making our great sex life even hotter. This guy was the 1 in a 100 and that is indeed what I am working through.

We are continuing to heal, and my being able to post here and get your input has been helpful to gain some perspective and look at this from various viewpoints. Since we want to work on this, and as my wife and have been so successful achieving what we set out minds to, I feel we will in time.

Again, thanks to all for the great discussions here.

sunbuckus · July 23, 2013

This isn't going to be a popular viewpoint but I'm going to put it out there anyways. Often, we see couples here who talk about how they were in the right place in their relationship to begin their swinging adventure. Perhaps it was the mental preparation of researching and engaging in deep conversations with each other beforehand. Perhaps they had certain experiences in life to see that having non-monogamous sex with others wasn't going to threaten their relationship. And sometimes, we hear of couples that had struggles when they first began but they worked through them and they have put those issues to rest. Whichever path a couple takes, there are small issues and big issues to deal with. The couple decides to work through it and it strengthens the relationship. Each of them has the goal of wanting to continue the relationship instead of ending it.

There are many reasons to swing but a couple of the top reasons are for variety and to fulfill fantasies. No matter how great the sex is between the couple there is still that desire to want to have sex with other people.

Just as vanillas are afraid of how they might lose their partner if they aren't monogamous, I would say that the majority of swingers are afraid of how they might lose their partner if they aren't emotionally monogamous. If a couple hasn't discussed the possibility and boundaries of having emotional connections with others, then there could be consequences that might damage a relationship...just as a couple who might not be prepared or ready to swing could incur the same damage. The key part in negotiating this situation concerning emotional connections with others is if they have the same goal: wanting to continue the relationship.

I considered re-writing my thoughts about emotional connections or poly but I have decided against it since it's terribly long and I'm lazy. Basically, one person can't fulfill all of the physical, emotional, and sexual needs of another person.

xyzabc123, even strong marriages go through tough times. It's how you two get through the tough times that really show you if your marriage is strong and will become stronger. I wish you and your wife resilience and healing in getting through this test and that you two succeed in conquering it.

funcoupledayton · July 23, 2013

My husband had some small indiscretions before we started swinging. He wanted to start with a clean slate so he told me. I was hurt, but it was in the past. I decided it was best not to harp on it, and to stay in the present and future where we were happy and good together. Having a blow by blow recollection from him, wouldn't have helped me or us, for me it was better to establish new trust and move on.

mauijanedoe · July 24, 2013

Beating a dead horse ruins almost as many relationships as the rot and fester that grows underneath a veneer of everything is OK. The OP isn't spying on his wife or distrusting her. Everything is not OK there is a festering sore that needs to be healed. Telling the OP to just get over it isn't going to heal anything. It's not even putting a bandaid over it.

I'm not certain how this became an either/or for you (and maybe for the OP, but that's not so clear). It is entirely possible to get resolution for even the most difficult of situations, but it's much harder if every conversation starts at the same place. If, instead, each person starts by not being certain of anything except how each feels, it will probably get somewhere.

It took my ex-husband six years to get to the place where he was no longer certain I'd had an affair and that allowed an actual conversation. It was years too late for us, because while I'm as loyal as a dog, there was no way i could ever really trust him again. Still, it was good to hear his apology.

Anyway, maybe your dead horse is a different breed than mine.

xyzabc123 · July 24, 2013

At the risk of throwing gasoline on the fire... It seems to me that the ladies who are responding are advocating the "forget whatever happened and move on approach", while the gentlemen are in support of the "get whatever happened out in the open so it can be resolved" approach. By the way, it would be fine with my wife to just forget and move forward, whereas I am seeking some resolution on the open questions.

Are there any ladies who think it is a good approach to get the communication flowing so we can have a heart-to-heart talk to settle things in my mind?

Conversely, are there gentlemen who agree with the "forget whatever happened" approach?

Note that a blow-by-blow description is not what I am after, but to be able to rationally and maturely discuss this to put some of these questions behind us will help me a lot, and I feel I am due at least this in any serious relationship. We are not starting each conversation at the same place, but instead as time passes we are able to make inroads into discussing it without the high emotions that have been there in the past. I can see where this would be considered beating a dead horse, but in our case the horse is still breathing (for lack of a better analogy)...

Thanks for all the input and conversation.

sunbuckus · July 24, 2013

At the risk of throwing gasoline on the fire . . .

There's no fire. There's just great back and forth conversation with different opinions about what is going on. In the end, all of us on the forum don't really know what is going on. We only have a sliver of information of what is going on and it's very bias because we aren't getting your wife's side about what is going on. And even then, we still don't know for 100% because we aren't personally involved. The feelings that both of you feel are 100% but only you two know how you truly feel...we can only guess or estimate.

The way that I see this, as a woman and as a wife, it's been a year since all of this happened. Whether or not she's told the entire truth or not, I'm guessing that she's told you, "That's the whole story, nothing more!"...whenever you bring up questions about it, you are questioning not the situation but her truthfulness. It smacks of distrust. Continue this for a year and frustration will set in and she'll dig her heels in and be stubborn. If she's telling the truth, she doesn't want to talk about it anymore because you're clearly not listening to her anymore and only want to hear what you want to hear or waiting to hear what you want to hear. If she's is hiding something, you are still continuing to show her that you aren't listening and that you don't trust her words at face value. Those are the bottom lines.

I am sure that we all agree that if she was cheating, she should be truthful to you but you can't make her do that. She has to be the one that wants to come clean, if she is hiding something. Questioning her, nagging her...those aren't going to provide her a safe, non-judging atmosphere for her to feel comfortable in being able to tell you. You're best bet is to find a way to come to terms about it so that you can "let it go" and not always have it rattling around in your head. In time, perhaps she will bring it up in the future and you two can talk about it.

This is just how I see the situation but as I said above, we are only getting your side of the story.

Conversely, are there gentlemen who agree with the "forget whatever happened" approach?

The other night, I asked Mr. Sun to take a look at your thread and give me his advice. He stated that you have an idea in your head about what has happened and you'll only respond to those that will support your view. He also told me that I should stop posting on your thread because I've given enough advice.

I wanted to include this quote that I wanted to include in my last post but forgot to:

"Forgiveness doesn't mean that it was okay that they hurt you, it means that you're okay with moving on."

xyzabc123 · July 24, 2013

Thanks sunbuckus, well said and I can see both of your point of view. While I respectfully disagree with some of the characterizations I do appreciate what you have provided in all of your posts. You are correct that you only have my viewpoint on all this, but I will tell you I have taken pains to honestly articulate what happened and at least show some of her view.

As I've said before, I'm not sure what to forgive her for, is it that she developed this close relationship, or that she possibly did something she won't tell me? Or if she should be the one that has to forgive me for giving her permission and then getting upset by what happened . . .

Regardless of all that, I got what I came here for thanks to the many responses. That was to "talk" it out with others who understood the lifestyle as that is just not possible in everyday life. Then to get perspective and context so I can move forward. This has been accomplished and I again thank everyone for their input.

This will be last post unless I have new news to report. As I stated earlier, we have had a couple conversations since my first posting and are making progress, so that is a step in the right direction.

xyzabc123 over and out

funcoupledayton · July 24, 2013

At the risk of throwing gasoline on the fire . . . It seems to me that the ladies who are responding are advocating the "forget whatever happened and move on approach", while the gentlemen are in support of the "get whatever happened out in the open so it can be resolved" approach. By the way, it would be fine with my wife to just forget and move forward, whereas I am seeking some resolution on the open questions.

Are there any ladies who think it is a good approach to get the communication flowing so we can have a heart-to-heart talk to settle things in my mind?

Conversely, are there gentlemen who agree with the "forget whatever happened" approach?

Note that a blow-by-blow description is not what I am after, but to be able to rationally and maturely discuss this to put some of these questions behind us will help me a lot, and I feel I am due at least this in any serious relationship. We are not starting each conversation at the same place, but instead as time passes we are able to make inroads into discussing it without the high emotions that have been there in the past. I can see where this would be considered beating a dead horse, but in our case the horse is still breathing (for lack of a better analogy) . . .

Thanks for all the input and conversation.

Bbarnsworth is a man and gave you similar advice. I notice also that most people who gave the "let it go" advice have also shared their personal experiences that relate and how it worked out for them.

mauijanedoe · July 24, 2013

I'm a woman and I'm actually advocating that your conversations start at a different place than they have up til now rather than not occur. I do think your need to know, if you only work through it with your wife instead of bringing in a professional, will probably be more destructive than not, though. You are, after all, a year into mistrusting your partner, which (and this may be more important to women than men) pretty much ensures her not being able to ever trust you in the same unthinking way.

Mr. Doe, when asked, said: "If he's devoted to the relationship, he'll let it go."

ZAY · July 25, 2013

How would she respond to the idea of counseling ? Its sounds like you guys might need it at this point. Personally, I don't believe in letting things like this go. At least not with someone you are planning to grow old with. Rugsweeping is for those who are not worth the trouble; a stranger or an acquaintance you can easily cut out of your life. IT IS NOT for loved ones who you will need to trust and interact with going forward. If you let this go, I think you'll be setting a bad precedent for your relationship. She has to be willing to own her part in this, she has not so of course you're still dealing with this. She's earned your mistrust, she has to be willing to earn your trust back. The last thing I would be able to do is trust someone who takes a topic off the table and isn't willing to help me work through it. After all, she loves you right? Anyway since its been a year, I think its time for a neutral third party. A professional. I believe this is the best way to show your 'devotion' to your relationship. If she's as devoted as you are, she should do whatever it takes to make your relationship better. It sounds like she would have a willing partner in you. Stand your ground, It's obvious that you know how important what you are trying to do here is.

Hopefully you can get her on board, good luck.

bbarnsworth · July 27, 2013

I'm wondering what the cost will be for you (xyzabc1230) to get the 'truth'. Let's fast forward this to a point in the future when this is all behind you now. You say "put some of these questions behind us will help me a lot"; what about your wife? Ok, so let's say you get everything you want. You get all the questions you wanted to have answered. _You_ feel good now. Or, at least you think you do. Since you don't trust your wife, you're never going to be 100% certain that everything she has told you is accurate. You're placing her under some massive pressure. This is pressure she does not want (or, at least it appears this way in your posts). So in the end, if you get everything you want out of this she may end up forever distrusting you because she knows if she opens her heart to you at all there could once again be enormous pressure from you.

Is this _really_ what you want? You've got to stop thinking about what _you_ want. Either you are a team or you are not. If you are a team, then you'd better start looking for solutions that involve both of you working together towards mutually agreeable resolution. Marriage doesn't mean losing your identity but it does mean that you commit yourself 100% to the union of the two of you. If you can't or are unwilling to do that, you might as well start packing your bags. But, if you did that you'd be making a huge mistake in my opinion. This woman has stood with you through some pretty thick stuff, and she's still standing, still taking it, and still staying. Too many people would be all too ready to leave under such circumstances.

You're not sure what to forgive her for? If you're not sure what to forgive her for, maybe there's nothing to forgive? Some mistakes were made by both of you. Some of them were great big whopping mistakes. You know what? You're human. Mistakes don't necessarily make you ugly. It's how you choose to respond to those mistakes, what you choose to learn, what you choose to apply towards the future...THAT is the measure. Look, just forgive. Blanket, unequivocal, forgive. Stand with her. She sure as heck is standing with you.

I'm sorry to come off harsh. I don't mean it to tear you down but to lift you to a different way of thinking about this.

Gordo · July 29, 2013

At the risk of throwing gasoline on the fire . . . It seems to me that the ladies who are responding are advocating the "forget whatever happened and move on approach", while the gentlemen are in support of the "get whatever happened out in the open so it can be resolved" approach.

Women are very relationship oriented and I believe they see the risk to the relationship as being the most important and either ignore it or work to compromise.

Men see the dishonor in the behavior and an ongoing insult (lack of truth) and react accordingly.

Where your wife is concerned there may be more of a "don't want to tell him the truth so I don't hurt him" behavior because protecting your relationship is more important to her than the truth.

rvdudes · July 30, 2013

This is Mrs RV posting. I do heartily agree that "harping" won't solve anything. Only the OP knows how often this is a discussion item in their household. Hopefully it is not a regular occurrence.

Despite that I feel a need to relate some of our own experience...if it strikes a chord with you great.....if not please disregard!!

Almost three years ago, after 27 years of marriage, Mr RV told me that he was leaving me. He had met someone new and "fallen in love". He stayed away for less than 24 hours. In the process of healing we went to counseling, went to a marriage course, and talked and talked and talked. I discovered that he had often flirted with women over the years of our marriage hoping that he would get lucky and have some NSA sex. As we discussed what had happened to us I realized that there was a pattern in his behavior. When I confronted him with my thoughts he denied it. That night he came to me and confessed to two previous affairs. One had happened 18 years before and one had happened 7 years before. What was most amazing is that as soon as he confessed it was if a weight had been lifted from him...it was almost a visible thing. He had kept those secrets for all those years.

Conventional wisdom is that he should not have told me as it "would distress me unnecessarily". But to this day I believe that his confession is the reason that we are now celebrating our 30th wedding anniversary and are happier than we have ever been. Each time he got away with cheating it became easier to cheat. Each time he lied to me it became easier to lie. And once I knew everything and still chose to stay with him he was able to truly acknowledge and then work on the underlying issue that contributed to his past choices. Without full disclosure we would have never ever been able to have the relationship we have now.

So.....both of us say that we wish we could have learned our lessons another way but neither of us is sorry that we learned the lesson. And for us the lesson is NO SECRETS!!

xyzabc123 · July 30, 2013

Hello all, Many thanks to all the responses! Although I am not checking this board routinely, and didn't plan on adding more to what I have already related, I would like to address some of the questions raised recently.

We actually tried counseling, but the councilor was not "lifestyle friendly" so gave us a lecture about monogamy. Other than that he didn't offer any real assistance. Finding a LS councilor is not an easy task...

When this first happened we had the emotional discussions I described previously, then we didn't talk about it all for months, really nearly a year. Recently we have had a couple discussions about this and are making progress. These discussions are now very mature (for lack of a better term), and there is no harping or blaming. We are really working through our individual views and how we each feel to seek a better understanding, so this is great progress and I think for the first time she is getting how I feel and why, but we're not there yet.

As of this time we have not gotten to the point where we can "re-hash" the events in question. I'm hoping in time we can get to where we can have this discussion and she feels free and comfortable to relate whatever there is to relate, or relate it in such a way to . I'm fully aware that this will take time, but even after a long time she may wish to "protect" me and not take the chance of causing further damage to the progress we've made over time.

To Mrs. RV, thank you for relating your story, it is very helpful and I hope I am as gracious as you have been if in the future something does come out. One of the key points here is that I thought we had this incredible open and honest relationship with NO SECRETS. Literally overnight this is one of the biggest things we lost. Or, perhaps I was a total fool and thought we had this totally honest, able to tell each other anything, best friend relationship that simply wasn't there to begin with.

I do agree with bb and feel this has already cost us 1 full year of martial happiness and tranquility. This is something we already have begun to address by opening up the discussions I noted above. However, both of us still feel there is something hanging over our heads. Your point of being a team and working towards a solution is what we are working to do. We have both been dug in to our positions for too long. I am looking for the ability to talk about this, ask reasonable questions and get honest answers. She says whatever happened is in the past and we should just forget about it and move forward.

At this point I believe this one event will impact our marriage for more time to come. Hopefully we can heal in the next couple of years, but I'm not sure this won't be with us for the rest of our married lives. The good news is that we are together and are slowly working towards whatever our married life will look like in the future. I just don't see us getting back to the free, open, deeply honest and trusting relationship we once had (or I thought we had) any time in the future, and that goes both ways as she doesn't trust how I may react to any given situation. Certainly the lifestyle is totally out of the question.

While some of the above may seem negative, I am calling it how I see it. In the meantime we are doing things together and have a very amicable day to day relationship.

10thBadger · December 15, 2021

On 7/18/2013 at 12:53 PM, sunbuckus said:

Hi, xyzabc and welcome to the forum! When I first came upon your post, I didn't know how to respond because I couldn't get a grip on what might be the root of the problem. But for some reason, I kept seeing similarities between your post and the post where the wife had fantastic sex with a playmate and he was worried that sex with him would pale in comparison.

Perhaps I'm wrong (and I'm wrong often!) but from what you've written about what your wife has said, how there is no longer any communication between herself and the playmate, and how she is still coming home to you every night...I'm starting to wonder if this is something that is within you that you have to contemplate, explore, and learn from. You, yourself, said that you are jealous and distrustful and I would throw in some insecurity as well. Unfortunately, these are emotions and feelings that you have to come to terms with and learn that you don't need to be.

I wish there was a magic formula that anyone could use to get over those feelings but there isn't. You have to determine that path. Maybe some meditation will help. Maybe researching (whether here on the forum or elsewhere) will help. Maybe there's a way you can have an open, honest, non-judging, non-blaming, heart-to-heart conversation with your wife. In the end, jealousy, insecurity, and distrust is only something that you can fix. You have to take that leap of faith to trust your wife and believe what she tells you at face value. You have to take that leap of faith to be confident in yourself and your relationship to overcome the insecurity that something as fickle as great sex will break up something as great as your relationship. And perhaps you have to consider whether you were uncomfortable and jealous about your wife's happiness and enjoyment. Contrary to what society wants us to think, one person cannot be everything to another person.

Badgers wife,

I totally agree with everything that you were saying. But here’s my question to you.

For some reason I think that he does have a reason to be a little bit jealous and distrustful because of her texting and long rendezvous‘s before she was given permission to play with him. And then the wife not wanting to speak about it and getting angry with her husband when he sees text that point to her cheating on him before she was given permission to sleep with this man. Or does the husband have to forget everything that she did in the past? now if the wife came clean with everything that she did with his other man before the husband was OK with them hooking up. Then I can see him trusting her again. That’s just my observation. Even though some in here think that my husband and I should not have a opinion because we are not in the lifestyle.

What do you think about her coming clean first before they can move forward in their relationship?

lcmim · December 15, 2021

Part of the answer to that is that DECIDING not to continue dwelling on it is the one thing that he actually has control over.

Even if she "came clean" with dramatic detail it would be necessary for him to make that decision if he were to believe her.

Ultimately it is all in his reaction.

Sure it would have helped if she had made a point of keeping him informed. I had a similar situation with a lovely woman. Right from the start the chemistry was undeniable. I still do not fully understand what it was, or how it worked , but it WAS.

After our first meeting I told my wife that that lady would be part of my life.

My wife, bless her just smiled and said OK.

The lady and her husband became fast friends of ours.

My wife and her husband left us plenty of time to explore our feelings.

The word Love was used in a fully adult context.

We were always crystal clear that our spouses came first. We became protective of each others marriages.

She , sadly is no longer alive. We are still close friends with her husband.

All of that because it was fully in view from the beginning and the fact I married far beyond my right.

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