Ugh, what to do? I don't want to swing anymore

[swingingnot4me 17]

I feel I have open the box, and its never going to close.

 

My wife and I started swining I guess, 2 years ago. Its something I kind of brought up and we both had fantasy's about. We have been married 15 years. We had an active sex life for the most part and never really lacked in this department. The reason it came up, was she was going out a lot with her girl friends, and having a great time. Guys would hit on her, and it made her feel great! Which in turn really turned me on. We would have wild and crazy sex after this. So I thought maybe this was something we could try.

 

as soon as I brought this us, she instantly went on websites searching for our first couple to play with! She finds one rather quickly and we give it a go. Same room, and I couldnt get it up. Every time I heard her with the guy, grunting and moaning, it made it worse. When it was over, we talked about our experiance. I told her I dont think its something for me, and wasnt exciting. She comes back with, maybe we need to try it again... seperate rooms this time.

 

Needless to say, we tried several other times with the same results. I am not having fun with it. Theres been times I have caught her now "Bending" the rules we have set. Nothing too much, but definatly stuff that may be a matter of perspective. Stuff like "I didnt really give him a blow job, it was only for a few seconds".

 

Ive tryed to tell her a few times Im done with it, I really dont want to do it. Ive even told her I have only done it for her. We just keep going round and round in this big circle. Where just to end the argument, I give in. Now Im finding myself paranoid, of who shes texting... who she spends time with, and what she does during the day when Im at work. We went from being very solid, to totally unstable because of these experiances.... but she doesnt seem to see that. She keeps telling me "Well you seemed to enjoy it when..." and maybe a part of me did. But as a whole, its not for me.

[sunbuckus 3,567]

Welcome to the forum, swingingnot4me. I wish you could have experienced this great community under different terms though. I would also like to say thank you for posting your predicament, for yourself and others. Often, if we hear of one half of a couple stating that swinging isn't for them but their spouse is enjoying themselves too much to listen to the one who isn't fun it's usually the female half that wants to stop. It's refreshing for myself and perhaps others to see that the male half can also feel that way.

 

As for your situation, it's all too often the case of the other spouse not listening to what you're saying. They are caught up in their wants and desires or too blinded by them to see how this is truly affecting their partner and the relationship. Do I wish that we could reach out of the computer screen, shake them out of their reverie, and see how much pain this is causing you? Of course but it's not possible. The only person who can really snap themselves out of this is your wife, unfortunately. I wish there was a magic phrase or conversation that you can have with her to make her see what this is doing to you but I don't know what those magic words are.

 

When I think back to the times when I was doing something that made me focus on my desires, which put Mr. Sun and his feelings into a lower priority, I had to be the one that really listened and open to see how my actions were hurting him. I had to want to place him back into that higher priority and tell myself that him and our relationship was more important than this one thing. Was it painful? At first but I was determined that Mr. Sun was the person I wanted to be with in the long run and that I had to fight my inner turmoil to see that his happiness was greater than my own temporary sorrow during the "withdrawal" period.

 

I wish you and your wife luck on this matter. The road ahead for the both of you will be rough, whether she is able to break herself out of this or if she continues in the same manner.

[swingingnot4me 17]

Thanks for the responce, and the links. I will take the time to read them. Latley she has been suggesting I just do it, without her. Which I have no desire too, If I wanted to cheat, I would LOL! But I know its in hopes that I will get into it, and she can have her turn. We have already went through this, where she put me in a situation, ran off, then used it against me later to get what she wants.

[DigginIt 1,132]

Okay this should be an eye opener to a several things.

 

First, if she is really into this as you say she is, it's not going back into the box!

 

Second, if it's not going back into the box, you have to understand that this is going to rip your relationship apart if the two of you can't reach a compromise, it can't be all no or all yes. Sorry, but that's one of the things that happens when you open the box sometimes.

 

You need to stop the talks about "I only did this for you" and talk about trust and insecurity. That's what's at the core of this. If she is really set to do this then you are attacking something that's not winnable. My opinion is that you are not enjoying it because you are too worried about what is happening with your wife it interferes with you having a good time yourself and I have to agree with her that at some point before you realized you were not ready for this, you wanted to do it. You just didn't know how deep your insecurities were until it happened and separate rooms are only going to make it worse because now you don't know what she's doing and your mind is going to start to fill in the blanks making a bad situation worse.

 

I truly feel for you, I do but if you want your relationship to last another 15 years, you two are going to have to eventually find a compromise and that won't happen with things they way they are. Talk about you, not about swinging.

 

Good luck!

[Emily & Art 19]

Hello swingingnot4me, I am so sorry for the pain you are going through!

 

You've already gotten some good advice. So, I am going to refrain. But, I will give you one good resource for possibly coming up with a different way of thinking about this situation. Google Dan Savage "savage love" he is a sex advice columnist that has letters from readers about this very subject. Search his archive for polyamory, cockolding, monogamish, hot wifing, etc etc

 

I think at minimum your wife needs to come up with a way to reassure you that you and your relationship are her main priority. Once she gets that down maybe the two of you can figure out a way to let her have some outside experiences that'll get you both back to that hot crazy sex you used to have.

[swingingnot4me 17]

Well crap. No instant fix? LOL I appreciate the advice though =)

[mauijanedoe 1,414]

It appears that your inability to physically enjoy swinging has lead to a lot of mistrust and anger surfacing for you and it has been met with defensiveness on your wife's part (which is a pretty predictable response when we feel attacked). That's not a healthy loop and what you call your paranoia is undoubtedly not helping. However, I think swinging was just the trigger and even if you permanently stop any sort of activity in this realm, the problems aren't going to go away.

 

So, maybe, instead of focusing on swinging - which, by the way, you really need to stop, at least for the foreseeable future. unless the aim is to end your relationship - the two of you need to find a way to make your relationship healthier. Why don't you trust your wife (forget about holding on to the things she's done and look more closely at what's inside of you and why you feel that way)? What is it about your relationship that feels so shaky that you worry about who she's texting or might be seeing or what she's doing while you're at work? And, again, don't point your finger at swinging; look inside.

 

In other words, instead of the loop that focuses on swinging and whether you did or didn't enjoy it, etc., etc., etc., dig under that and talk about how you actually feel, about yourself, your relationship, your wife. And let your wife do the same thing.

 

If you can't do that, then perhaps you could find a good sex positive therapist in your area who won't judge your previous actions but will instead focus on helping you strengthen your relationship.

[sunbuckus 3,567]

However, I think swinging was just the trigger and even if you permanently stop any sort of activity in this realm, the problems aren't going to go away.

 

...talk about how you actually feel, about yourself, your relationship, your wife. And let your wife do the same thing.

 

These are excellent points. I have this terrible habit of assuming that most couples openly communicate about these things regularly that it didn't cross my mind that perhaps there might be a disconnect between the two due to lack of honest, open, loving, non-judging, non-blaming communication.

[latin2012 22]

You said that you've been swinging for about 2 years. I am guessing that the first cpl you all played with and you had trouble was 2 years ago? Are you still having problems or do you just want to stop swinging. Maybe your just burnt out on it. I'm not saying it is wrong for you not to want to swing while wife still does. I've seen a lot of stories here about the wife wanting to stop while the hubby still wants to continue. I think you and wife need to talk about it seriously. You might also have to decide if she still wants to continue and you don't that a break up might be coming. Have you considered asking her to just take a break for a few months and see where that leads? I would never suggest that you bite the bullet and just keep playing especially if you want to stop.

[swingingnot4me 17]

You said that you've been swinging for about 2 years. I am guessing that the first cpl you all played with and you had trouble was 2 years ago? Are you still having problems or do you just want to stop swinging. Maybe your just burnt out on it. I'm not saying it is wrong for you not to want to swing while wife still does. I've seen a lot of stories here about the wife wanting to stop while the hubby still wants to continue. I think you and wife need to talk about it seriously. You might also have to decide if she still wants to continue and you don't that a break up might be coming. Have you considered asking her to just take a break for a few months and see where that leads? I would never suggest that you bite the bullet and just keep playing especially if you want to stop.

 

Not having a problem persay. I have no issue getting it up, that took care of its self. No, I just dont really enjoy it. I have a much better time with my wife, always have. My wife is very passionate, and ive never had an issue with the physical aspect of swinging and her. But she always likes to take it a few steps further. Between talking and texting on the phone to these people it seems to consume all her time. Ive seen some of the text, and I think they would make even most hardcore swingers pause and evaluate what there other half's real intentions are.

 

I guess if your in a total "Open, honest and non judgemental" relationship it shouldnt bother me, but it does. Where is the line of being so open, honest and non-judgemental and simply just not careing anymore? We are honest with each other, and I react when I hear something I dont like. We compromise for each other all the time, but she certainly the first one to tell me she doesnt like something. Not even sure why I started the post to be honest... More venting than anything. Just hopeing there where others who could relate.

[DigginIt 1,132]

Between talking and texting on the phone to these people it seems to consume all her time. Ive seen some of the text, and I think they would make even most hardcore swingers pause and evaluate what there other half's real intentions are.

 

Here is a question that pops up, is she like this with one couple/single guy or is she like this with all new encounters? Keep in mind that it can take a year or two for the fizzle to wear out if your interactions are sparse but you can probably guess what I'm driving at. If she is always like this because it's thrilling for her then no big deal but if it's one particular person then that could possibly be a problem. MD is the type that is really into her text's. The stuff she says often makes me blush when I read it but it is always the thrill of being chased and wanted. That's what the lifestyle is about for her and the lead up is almost always better than the conclusion.

 

If it's consuming all of her time to the point you are feeling neglected then that is a problem also because swinging isn't about doing things as individuals, it's about doing things together and it shouldn't be putting separation between the two of you. But, everyone is different and they swing differently.

 

I guess if your in a total "Open, honest and non judgemental" relationship it shouldnt bother me, but it does.

 

Relationships aren't perfect and swinging adds a huge complexity on top of it. Emotions are also not always rational but they are important. If I feel a certain way about something then it doesn't really matter if it's justified or not because we are human. The key thing is that your partner listens and understands regardless if they agree or not because that is what love is about, acceptance. Logically, you say it shouldn't bother you but emotionally it does. It's valid regardless and should be worked through with understanding and patience.

 

Good luck. I still agree with my point about talking about you and not making the issue about swinging.

[Chicup 41]

I guess if your in a total "Open, honest and non judgemental" relationship it shouldnt bother me, but it does. Where is the line of being so open, honest and non-judgemental and simply just not careing anymore? We are honest with each other, and I react when I hear something I dont like. We compromise for each other all the time, but she certainly the first one to tell me she doesnt like something. Not even sure why I started the post to be honest... More venting than anything. Just hopeing there where others who could relate.

 

I'm not sure why you think it shouldn't bother you, it would bother me.

 

As a side note I'm going to guess that over half the guys in swinging are on ED meds to help get it up, you can look in that direction.

[Guy1964 177]

I think DigginIt hit this right on the head. This genii isn't just going back in the bottle. This is obviously something that is very important to her, and I don't see her stopping it and being happy. I think the two of you are going to have to make some tough choices about how to proceed. Have you and her talked about her proceeding without you? One of my friends and his wife have this arrangement. As he puts it, "She knows where home is."

[Tahoecple 319]

I hope you don’t mind if I tell you the impression I got in reading your opening post. Keep in mind it’s all but impossible to gain a deep insight from reading a few paragraphs but this is what I felt after reading yours.

 

It really sounds to me like you got into this thing for all the wrong reasons. It sounded like you were getting a little jealous when she was going out with her girlfriends and guys would hit on her. You said it turned you on and you had great sex afterword’s but I got the feeling that it was the great sex afterword’s that you liked not the guys hitting on her.

 

Then when you broached the idea of swinging with her the fact that she said yes and was turned on by the idea kind of made you feel a little insecure. Then when you went through with it and she got turned on having sex with somebody else that was a little more than you could handle. That puts you in the vast majority of the males in this country. I think most guys out there have a real hard time with the fact that their spouse is turned on by sex regardless of where it comes from. Most guys like to think that they are the only ones that can fire her rocket. When the fact is that any number of guys or things can fire that rocket for her.

 

Maybe I’m wrong but from what you’ve said seeing her having sex with other men is just not your thing. The only way out I can see for you is to stop beating around the bush and just come out and tell her that. Take the blame for getting you two into this but you can’t take seeing her engaged in this type of thing anymore. Just be honest with her about your feelings and let the chips fall where they will.

 

I hope it works out well for you two.

[intuition897 2,179]

Well crap. No instant fix? LOL I appreciate the advice though =)

 

I've got one for you, but it's a bitter pill.

 

Take off your wedding ring and hand it to her. Look her dead in the eye and tell her when she's ready to put your needs ahead of her wants, when she needs your happiness as much as her own, you'll put it back on. Until then, it means nothing to you.

 

Marriage is about mutual respect, and about needing your spouse's happiness more than your own. She needs a good, smart slap in the face for her to wake up and see what she's doing here. This is not a game.

[swingingnot4me 17]

Tahoecple, as I read your responce it dawned on me. You may be totally correct. I really didnt put that together, but it makes sence. Which you are correct, its the wrong reasons to get into the LS. And to Intuition, I have been thinking about doing just that. This has effected our whole life, or at least I feel it has. No, I dont blame swinging at all. I blame myself, for not recognizing what was going on in the first place. We talk a lot, and I get where she is coming from. But it comes down too, Its not for me and I really cannot find it in myself to be involved in it... no offense to you all. We have LS friends that are very happy Couples. It appears both the husband and wife are very happy with it. Then there are others, I end up finding out the wife really isnt into it (in most cases) and they do it just for the other person... these people dont seem to last long together. I dont want to end up like one of those couples it tears them apart.

[intuition897 2,179]

swingingnot4me said:

We talk a lot, and I get where she is coming from. But it comes down too, Its not for me and I really cannot find it in myself to be involved in it... no offense to you all. We have LS friends that are very happy Couples. It appears both the husband and wife are very happy with it. Then there are others, I end up finding out the wife really isn't into it (in most cases) and they do it just for the other person... these people dont seem to last long together. I dont want to end up like one of those couples it tears them apart.

 

I just posted a response to a thread about imbibing too much alcohol during swinging encounters and related a friend's story. My friend an her husband have an exceptionally close relationship, but with swinging, it's a sink or swim proposition. You just can't lie to yourself or to others for long before the cracks start to show. And then it's only a matter of time before everything collapses. That's not to imply that not being wired for swinging implies weakness; how you define a successful marriage is entirely your business and certainly none of ours. Perhaps after you have both settled this matter for yourselves you could revisit it experimentally in the future, but I wouldn't do it until SHE was the one dragging her feet for fear of hurting you, and not her dragging you along. Just don't take one for the team; it's not worth it.

[funcoupledayton 2,708]

How are things going for you now?

[swingingnot4me 17]

Update is about the same. We are trying to communicate better. Problem is, she wants to hear how I feel, but starts attacking me when I start revealing it. I do try and not accuse, or sound like Im blaming her when I talk to her about my feelings. But some issues we have are a direct result of the way she acts, and reacts to things.

 

I brought up the trust issues I had because of previous encounters where she bent the rules. Just some examples:

Rule 1 always use condoms: Broken (Excuse, "I didnt realise he didnt put one on") *There where other smaller rules, that really where kind of stupid, but this was a big one.

 

Others where not nessasarly rules. One time she asked me if she could give this guy a blowjob, and SHE specified only a blowjob. She ends up having intercourse with him. The only reason I knew this was because the guy was talking to me about it. At first she denied it, but realised she was caught. Then turned it around on me, and made me feel like crap because I should have known a BJ would turn into that.mBy consenting to anything, I should expect anything to happen. The list goes on, and on. I realise to many of you, your mate shouldnt have to ask for permission for things, or worry about any of this nonsence.

Sneaking away with people, telling me shes going one place, and when I go to join her there... shes not there. She went off with someone somewhere else.

Texting with people she had slept with, like all day. I dont know how a lot of you feel about texting, and normally it didnt bother me. But with this one particular guy it was literally all day. The whole time Im at work, and shes at home texting him for 8 hours. All about what she wants to do to him, and if he would ever meet her somewhere, getting his work address, ect.

But this is why Im having trust issues with her and the LS. She constantly ask for an inch, but takes a mile. She keeps telling me she will go at my pace, I get comfortable at C, and shes pulling me to Z as fast as she can.

 

I had asked her, What do you want from the LS? She simply said Conquest. To go after men, and get them to sleep with her, see if she can get anyone she wants. My answer? To fulfill some fantasies, have some fun, and make my wife happy. Im not sure how to read her answer. Maybe im reading too much into it, but the way she said it was very selfish sounding too me. Im also realising, most of our swingers experiences had little to do with us as a couple, and more of a we split up and do our own thing.

 

There is something else too... Its coming to light as we have these talks, that she had cheated on me. a lot. Since when we where dating before getting married, and during the early years of our marriage. Which doesnt help the trust issues of course. I already knew about 2 of them because I had caught her then... but whats shes describing to me now, is ones I had no idea about. One night stands, ect. Im trying to process it all, and figure out what I want to do. Im rambling and going all over the place, for that I apologise LOL. Im not very good at organizing my thoughts. Anyways, we are currently taking a break from swinging, and trying to work on our communications.

[intuition897 2,179]

Oh dear God. That sounds like a mess to me. Things that really stood out for me:

 

...she wants to hear how I feel, but starts attacking me when I start revealing it.

AKA wants to hear that you agree with her. If you don't, she doesn't want to hear it.

 

I brought up the trust issues I had because of previous encounters where she bent the rules. Just some examples:

Rule 1 always use condoms: Broken (Excuse, "I didnt realise he didnt put one on") ...this was a big one.

I agree, a big one. But ANY rule, big or small, should be followed; it's not even up o her to determine how big or small that rule is! It's a simple matter of respect for your partner's emotional needs.

 

...SHE specified only a blowjob. She ends up having intercourse with him. The only reason I knew this was because the guy was talking to me about it. At first she denied it, but realised she was caught. Then turned it around on me, and made me feel like crap because I should have known a BJ would turn into that.mBy consenting to anything, I should expect anything to happen. The list goes on, and on.

 

Sneaking away with people, telling me shes going one place, and when I go to join her there... shes not there. She went off with someone somewhere else.

Texting with people she had slept with, like all day. I dont know how a lot of you feel about texting, and normally it didnt bother me. But with this one particular guy it was literally all day. The whole time Im at work, and shes at home texting him for 8 hours. All about what she wants to do to him, and if he would ever meet her somewhere, getting his work address, ect.

 

WTF? Really? I don't even know where to start commenting on this. Let me just state the obvious and say that it absolutely should NOT be expected that it would go further. Speaking now to the Mrs: Sorry honey, but this wasn't rape; there came a point where you DECIDED to let him fuck you. And that, sweetheart, is where you had the CHOICE to stop. But you didn't, you decided you wanted that cock more than you wanted to take care of your husband's need for respect. And now your husband feels as though it was HIS fault for feeling hurt by your insensitivity. Do you have any idea how crazy that sounds? Or how narcissistic?

 

I would bet money that, after reading this, your Mrs. will try to persuade you that we're crazy and not real swingers, that real swinging is actually all about all that shit she's been feeding you. Don't believe it. Swinging is about love and respect for one's partner. If you're not feeling loved or respected, it's not your imagination, and it ain't swinging. It's just cheating. Telling you to expect her to cheat on you does not excuse her behaviour!

 

I realise to many of you, your mate shouldnt have to ask for permission for things, or worry about any of this nonsence.

No we don't usually have to worry about any nonsense, but it's because we ask for permission and respect one another's limits. Our level of trust (now) is such that we don't have many rules. If one of us did go behind the other's back, we'd be angry and confused! Our confrontation would sound something like: "Why the hell didn't you just TELL me you wanted to fuck him/her? You're totally allowed to do that anyway! Why did you have to fuck it up by lying about it?" Even if Mr. intuition897 did act on a spur of the moment impulse and took advantage of an opportunity (which he never actually would, out of respect for me), he would tell me about it immediately. And I wouldn't be angry. Because he's not trying to be secretive or trying to exclude me.

 

I think this right here is the problem:

 

I had asked her, What do you want from the LS? She simply said Conquest. To go after men, and get them to sleep with her, see if she can get anyone she wants....the way she said it was very selfish sounding too me. Im also realising, most of our swingers experiences had little to do with us as a couple, and more of a we split up and do our own thing.

 

There is something else too... Its coming to light as we have these talks, that she had cheated on me. a lot. Since when we where dating before getting married, and during the early years of our marriage. Which doesnt help the trust issues of course. I already knew about 2 of them because I had caught her then... but whats shes describing to me now, is ones I had no idea about. One night stands, ect. Im trying to process it all, and figure out what I want to do. Im rambling and going all over the place, for that I apologise LOL. Im not very good at organizing my thoughts. Anyways, we are currently taking a break from swinging, and trying to work on our communications.

 

Your wife sounds like a chronic cheater and I won't be surprised if you come back with an update that she's been cheating throughout your entire marriage, not just the early years. She seems to actually get off on the secrecy, the dirtiness, and the lying. Like a fetish. If she's a true narcissist, then guilt won't play into it for her at all; it will always be someone else's fault, someone will be "too attractive", or you "pushed her to do it" by not being more agreeable. Swinging (as she sees it) is more about cutting down your arguments and making it that much less inconvenient for her ("You mean I don't have to waste all this time with skulking around in secret? I can just TELL him I'm going to cheat on him and cut right to the chase? That's perfect!"). If she does feel actual guilt, then she's still rationalizing that telling you about her indiscretions somehow nullifies the fact that she lied to and disrespected you.

 

I need to take a breather. I haven't ranted like this in a long time...

[sunbuckus 3,567]

swingingnot4me, I'm glad that you're able to open up here and ask for advice but I hate reading these types of situations because I feel so awful for the people going through it. It's just not happy or healthy. I know that for some couples who play separately or are into cuckolding, your issues might be non-existent for them. But that's not you, obviously. And, to me, it just seems very apparent that she doesn't see swinging as a couple-thing but more as an all-about-her thing. She doesn't really care about how you feel or what you want. She wants what she wants and she's going out and getting it. From what you have written, it sounds like she's in this for her desires and as a way to openly and freely have any male that she wants, especially since you wrote about how she's coming out about all the cheating she has done on you in the past. Clearly, "swinging" (I put it in quotes because it really doesn't sound like swinging to me) was the catalyst to the major problems you were having before entering the LS. The cheating, the non-respect that she has for you and your relationship, the overall uncaring attitude she has in regards to your feelings were all there...they are just now coming out in the light. As many here will say, swinging will bring out any cracks and issues in a relationship and magnify them. How the couple is able to navigate through those issues determines whether they continue swinging as well as the testing the strength and health of their relationship. Unless she wakes up from her It's-All-About-Me view of life, I don't see this ending well.

 

Of course, this is just my opinion. I certainly hope I am wrong because I don't like to see so much sadness and heartache and I do hope that I am misreading your posts. And, of course, this is just a relay of one side of the situation. I certainly do hope that you two can pull through and work through these issues but no matter which way this goes, it's going to be really rough for the both of you. I wish you good luck and I hope you continue to update us on your situation.

[swingingnot4me 17]

Thank you both for the responces. Its funny though, because it seems to be becoming more and more clear to me what has been going on in front of me. It hit a nerve when you said "pushed her to do it". Thats exactley how that went down, and how I felt. At the time, I was not very attentive in our marriage. I was working a lot, and not home much. When I was, I was kind of an asshole. I take ownership of that fact, and fixed the problem. Now Im less of an asshole LOL. Acctually I have made sure since that day I have never neglected her. But truthfully I know, there are other ways to handle problems in a marriage then run off and screw someone LOL. Im not an idiot.

 

There are a lot of good things about my wife. Dont get me wrong, of course I am only focusing on the bad stuff right now. Its easy to complain about the bad, and not talk about the good. Im holding on to the good, and im trying to concentrate on that... But as of right now, the bad is way out weighing the good. She just texted me also, asking when I think we may be done with this "Break" we are taking.

[sunbuckus 3,567]

If one digs far enough into the forum, you can find a few posts where I talked about how both Mr. Sun and I cheated on each other long before we started swinging. Obviously, we worked through them and we're still together. Does this mean that we'll stay together forever? No, there's never any guarantee of forever for any couple. There will always be issues that come up to work through. But it takes both halves of the couple to want to work through them.

 

I know exactly how it feels to not feel close to your spouse. I know how it can feel to easily fall into the trap of confiding into someone else during those times. I know how it feels when your spouse doesn't find your attractive but someone else does. And I know how tempting and alluring it can be to be pursued and be lavished by attention when you don't get it at all at home. But does that excuse what you do? No. I should have gone to Mr. Sun about how I felt. I should have been able to communicate with him about how lonely, desolate, and disconnected I was. And he should have been able to be honest with me in how he felt in regards to our sex life when he cheated on me. As you can see, the main issue was communication and feeling like these emotions and thoughts shouldn't have been shared.

 

I still remember what helped him to stay with me when my indiscretion came to light. Was he angry? Damn straight. Was he heartbroken? So much so that he could barely focus on work and school at the time. But he still loved me. That's what made him want to stay and try to work things out. Of course, I also had to be willing to work things out and that meant ending all contact with the person I was cheating with. It meant an end to being selfish. I had to focus on us not me.

 

The same thing applied to him when I found out he had been cheating on me. I was furious and grief-stricken. I didn't want to be near him. I didn't want to even be near his belongings. I will always say this about this period of time in our relationship: I hated him but I loved him. I never knew you could both hate and love someone so intensely at the same time. The two things that made me stay was 1) I loved him and 2) he was able to stay and work things out when I cheated, I had to give our marriage a fighting chance. Ending a marriage is a lot easier than working through the mess that was created. Both are emotionally exhausting but I think the lesson that one learns in the end differs depending on which route you take.

 

swingingnot4me, your wife needs to come to her own conclusion that she is operating on a me-me-me mode and not a you-and-me mode. Once she realizes that she is being selfish only then can things possibly improve. But she has to figure that out and be willing to change her thought process. Other than that, I fear the worst.

[intuition897 2,179]

Thank you both for the responces. Its funny though, because it seems to be becoming more and more clear to me what has been going on in front of me. It hit a nerve when you said "pushed her to do it". Thats exactley how that went down, and how I felt. At the time, I was not very attentive in our marriage. I was working a lot, and not home much. When I was, I was kind of an asshole.

 

...Im not an idiot.

We're all assholes at some level. And no, you're not an idiot. The reason I put the "pushed her to do it" in quotes was not to emphasize your being at fault, but to emphasize that this is a totally invalid argument. Maybe you didn't demonstrate stellar qualities as a husband earlier on, but you have rectified that. And still, it doesn't excuse bad behaviour. She still has the ability - and responsibility - to choose whether or not she's going to cheat, and therefore, the onus is on her to choose well.

 

There are a lot of good things about my wife. Dont get me wrong, of course I am only focusing on the bad stuff right now. Its easy to complain about the bad, and not talk about the good. Im holding on to the good, and im trying to concentrate on that... But as of right now, the bad is way out weighing the good.

This whole thing right here is pretty much what she needs to hear from you. She might be assuming that, just because you went through a ceremony years ago, and you have the papers to prove it, you'll be sticking with her no matter how badly she treats you. That's not to say she doesn't have good qualities, too; I'm sure she does, as we all do. She's just letting the asshole half steal the show here. It's tough to have to face up to the fact that there are parts of ourselves that are simply, irrevocably, undeniably, unforgivably bad. And that's the sad truth. We all have a part of ourselves that - if we're honest with ourselves - pulls the wings off flies without thinking twice (figuratively speaking). Once you really look into the mirror and see that bitch staring back at you, you just wish you never saw her in the first place because you realize suddenly: that bad person? That IS you. Your ARE a bad person. Or part of you is at least. You can remove that part of yourself as easily as you could remove your own shadow, which is to say, you can't. And that is a nasty, bitter, jagged little pill to swallow. The only way your wife will really come around is if she swallows that pill and faces up to the truth: It IS her fault. She IS a bad person, and she keeps defining herself as such every time she chooses herself over you.

 

She just texted me also, asking when I think we may be done with this "Break" we are taking.

LOL. How about 'when you stop pulling at the leash'?

 

This is my own opinion, and applicable only to me, but if I were in your position, I would've cut her loose by now. I would have drawn the line in the sand ages ago and said, "cross it and we're done." She would have crossed it, and found herself on her own, free to fuck whomever she pleased in whatever way she pleased. I couldn't continue a relationship with someone who didn't understand the concept of respecting boundaries.

[stonemtncouple 45]

You my friend have a lying, cheating spouse in your hands. I was a victim of a woman youve been describing once. I even told her we could have a "open marriage" if she wanted but no she just wanted to cheat on me instead. 1. She dosnt respect your feelings 2. Its not about swinging its about her her excitment, sexual promiscuity nothing about you or your feelings. 3. With out respect and caring for your emotions you dont have a mutual caring relationship.

4. Id move on from her if I were you. Swinging didnt change her shes who she is regardless. So sorry but swinging lifestyle is only for rock solid relationships other wise its just cheating and destructive to the partner who hates it.

[Swing*8701 887]

She wants to Play and you're looking for trouble. Guess what ? You're both achieving your goals. Here's a different point of view: You have a rule where she cannot have oral sex with the other guy . Really ? How about trying one more time. Get some viagra from your Doc, make a psychological commitment to really make an effort and try again. In many ways you seem upset because of the fun she is having and you, in turn, are determined not to have any. Then she texts you a question on when you can start Swinging again. Really ? That is really terrible communication. You're both part of the problem, it's unlikely unresolvable, if you both maintain an all or nothing point of view. Good luck.

 

One more thing: throw the rules out the window and and just have amazing sex.

[beardedone 50]

In my little opinion, a marriage is a big thing, a HUGE thing. Ir requires honesty, love, and caring from all participants. Once in a while the love or caring can flag a little; it happens but not usually for very long. However, if the honesty ever goes away, then there is no more relationship.

 

I suggest you give her her walking papers and pursue a happier life. You have been terribly hurt by her and she doesn't even care. It's over and been over for quite some time.

 

It's harsh, cruel, and unforgivable. Move on. Get a better partnership.

[swingingnot4me 17]

She wants to Play and you're looking for trouble. Guess what ? You're both achieving your goals. Here's a different point of view: You have a rule where she cannot have oral sex with the other guy . Really ? How about trying one more time. Get some viagra from your Doc, make a psychological commitment to really make an effort and try again. In many ways you seem upset because of the fun she is having and you, in turn, are determined not to have any. Then she texts you a question on when you can start Swinging again. Really ? That is really terrible communication. You're both part of the problem, it's unlikely unresolvable, if you both maintain an all or nothing point of view. Good luck.

 

One more thing: throw the rules out the window and and just have amazing sex.

 

Somehow I dont think you read the entire thread. I had problems ONCE, and it was nerves. It took care of itself and went away. No oral wasnt a rule at all... It was something I wasnt comfortable with at that time, when we where getting our feet wet, and was just the beginning of her not respecting bounderies or rules at all, she just pretty much did what she wants. Also on a side note, I was uncomfortable with it, because of what happen in my post above... asking permission for anything in her eyes, was a green light for everything. I did make an effort for 2 years, and it was never the sex that was the problem. I honestly think its a lack of trust and communications. So "Amazing sex" is not going to fix the issue. Im acctually kind of surprised by your post, you sound like my wife.

[Swing*8701 887]

I sound like your wife ? Well, as the proverb goes: If seven people call you a horses ass, start naying.

 

As far as amazing sex not being an issue. Well, it's apparent she wants amazing sex and that you don't. So, she's developing plans and they do not include you.

 

Whatever your lot in life, if sorrowful, know that , in some way, you had a hand in it.

 

Lastly, your Swinging, how can oral sex be a boundary ?! If you're playing on the fringe, especially early on, know that you're probably going to get your nose 'bloodied' and you're going to have to deal with that.

[intuition897 2,179]

I sound like your wife ? Well, as the proverb goes: If seven people call you a horses ass, start naying.

 

As far as amazing sex not being an issue. Well, it's apparent she wants amazing sex and that you don't. So, she's developing plans and they do not include you.

 

Whatever your lot in life, if sorrowful, know that , in some way, you had a hand in it.

 

I'm sorry but I have to disagree with you, Edison Carter. It sounds to me like there's plenty of compromise going on here on swingingnotforme's part, which should not really be expected in the first place. "She's developing plans and they do not include you." When you're in a committed relationship, the other half a) has the right to know what those plans are, and b) has veto rights. And if the person making the plans says that this is part of the deal, then the other person has the right to decide to exit the relationship.

 

He's said that it's not the sex that bothered him: it's the dishonesty and complete lack of respect for his need to be able to trust the one person who should ALWAYS have his back. Sex is not even the issue here. She's not letting them have the fun that they could have because she's not giving him the time, space, support and unfailing honesty he needs to feel confident enough to give his wife the green light she's looking for. He wants to know that she loves him more than she loves fucking other men, which to me is understandable. If the OP was a woman complaining of her pushy, cheating, dishonest husband, constantly breaking the rules, what would we tell her?? I don't care what you've got between your legs, people are all the same. They need this honesty and caring from their spouse.

 

Lastly, your Swinging, how can oral sex be a boundary ?! If you're playing on the fringe, especially early on, know that you're probably going to get your nose 'bloodied' and you're going to have to deal with that.

 

Maybe some people consider oral sex to be more intimate than intercourse. Who are we to determine what is or is not right for another couple? It's none of our business what boundaries they set for themselves.

 

It's true that the early stages of swinging involve a steeper learning curve than anyone might expect. Things get very real, very quickly, and suddenly you're questioning why you're even together in the first place. Pandora's Box indeed. And yes, you'll get bruised and bloodied a bit. But there's a difference between getting concussed by bashing your head against a wall, and having your partner hit you in the back of the head with a fucking rock.

[Swing*8701 887]

Rightly or wrongly, I just won't indulge the delusional. Like many people, his wife is simply unable to contain herself in the the throes of the moment. The controls are ridiculous and ill conceived. Regardless of how she agrees to whatever boundary or rule he sets forth, she cannot. He needs to stop asking her to. I always say if you want to see how crazy something is, say it out loud: "Honey, you'll be alone with him and you can kiss him and blow him, but fucking him is going wayyyy to far." Such rules with couples would always make me laugh. You can make all the rules you want, they can be agreed to with contractually certified signatures,but if they're not sensible, especially considering the people involved, you should not sit back and cry foul for what was going to be inevitable. He doesn't realize he makes the rules under the guise of compromise, when it really is ego and control masquerading as moderation. It would make a lot more sense for him to address that he simply is not equipped to be in the Lifestyle instead of blaming his wife for going too far while in the throes of an intense sexual moment. He is unfair beyond words, from my point of view. It is the unfairness that causes the lying to occur. Because she is in conflict and it is that internal conflict that is causing the lying and the arguments. I'm no advocate of lying, I make it a point to live a genuine life. Yet he is creating the environment that is causing a problem that he manifested.

 

 

" We struggle against it. We fight to deny it, but it is of course pretense. It is a lie. Beneath our poised appearance, the truth is we are completely... out of control." The Merovingian ,from the movie "Matrix Reloaded"

[intuition897 2,179]

Rightly or wrongly, I just won't indulge the delusional. Like many people, his wife is simply unable to contain herself in the the throes of the moment.

Sorry, but I don't buy this. My body is not the boss of me, and I don't care how much it bitches or begs. This smacks of that old argument that men are just prone to cheating because they can't control their sex drives. Horseshit. A decision was made at some point, period.

 

The controls are ridiculous and ill conceived.

To you maybe. To couples who have evolved to that point, they are probably unnecessary. But to this couple, those rules are still a necessary framework upon which they demonstrate trustworthiness and learn to trust. It's a process.

 

You can make all the rules you want, they can be agreed to with contractually certified signatures,but if they're not sensible, especially considering the people involved, you should not sit back and cry foul for what was going to be inevitable.

Perhaps this part in bold is the problem. If this is a part of her personality that simply will not change - the part that is okay with lying and sneaking around to get what she wants regardless of how it hurts others - then maybe he would prefer not to poison his life with such a person. Actions, consequences, choices.

 

He doesn't realize he makes the rules under the guise of compromise, when it really is ego and control masquerading as moderation.

No, it's not ego and control. It's him clinging to the ladder while someone is trying to push him in the deep end of the pool. For someone who's maybe not such a strong swimmer, it's bound to cause a bit of resentment. The man is tired of being told one thing and the truth being another!

 

He is unfair beyond words, from my point of view. It is the unfairness that causes the lying to occur. Because she is in conflict and it is that internal conflict that is causing the lying and the arguments. I'm no advocate of lying, I make it a point to live a genuine life. Yet he is creating the environment that is causing a problem that he manifested.

I can't even begin to say how backward that sounds to me.

 

"We struggle against it. We fight to deny it, but it is of course pretense. It is a lie. Beneath our poised appearance, the truth is we are completely... out of control." The Merovingian ,from the movie "Matrix Reloaded"

Bullshit. We are who we decide to be. We are a product of the choices that we make. She is choosing poorly.

[carebear 90]

Amen, intuition897.

Much of the discussion above sounds like a spoiled child, I want what I want and I want it now. To hell with who it hurts or the repercussions. There is never any excuse for lying, especially in a lifestyle where honesty is valued so highly. Lying says I know what I did was wrong, but I don't care because I would rather get my rocks off behind my husbands back than talk to him. I've never been a fan of 'look what you made me do.' I call bullshit on that one.

 

It also seems that part of the thrill for her is the sneaking, planning, lying. Maybe it's not so much fun if you know about it and are involved. Knowing that she cheated on you in the past (and probably way more than she's copping to even now) I can only imagine how difficult it is to live with her behavior now.

 

To the op: Have you considered marriage counseling? Or even a mediator type person who can control the conversation and allow you to be able to talk without her interrupting/blowing up at you.

 

I see you both have wildly different expectations of swinging. Have you asked her what her expectations of marriage are?

Is she able to stop her outside conquests while you two work on your relationship?

[mauijanedoe 1,414]

Sorry, but I don't buy this. My body is not the boss of me, and I don't care how much it bitches or begs. This smacks of that old argument that men are just prone to cheating because they can't control their sex drives. Horseshit. A decision was made at some point, period.

 

I've pretty much stayed out of this thread because it makes my teeth itch. I am constitutionally unable to believe a story with an evil antagonist and a lovely, innocent protagonist or, in modern terms, a lying, cheating, no-good sumbitch and his or her shining light of a spouse, deserving of all the sympathy. We all kinda suck sometimes and never more than when we are in conflict.

 

But this one? Yeah, unfortunately, my body is the boss of me. I have an off switch and an on switch, but I don't have a dimmer. I know that about me (kiss my neck in the right way and I'm going to say yes, even if I was saying - and meaning - no only 30 seconds ago), so I have a pretty large personal barrier and only friends I trust and people I want to fuck are allowed into it. I also know not to agree to any rules, because once past a certain point in my arc of desire, I won't enforce them. I like to think I have control of pretty much everything, but I know that in this one area, I don't.

 

I'm not alone in this and there are many women for whom this is true. It might cause them shame (it certainly did me, until I decided to just explore the landscape of my incompetence and plan from that), it can certainly cause conflict with a partner and it is, I believe, the wellspring of many stories that start, "We decided on our rules and she broke them!"

 

So, good on you that your body is not the boss of you, but please know that it's not universal, that some of us have our decision points a whole lot earlier than other women (it appears to only be women).

[sunbuckus 3,567]

I've pretty much stayed out of this thread because it makes my teeth itch. I am constitutionally unable to believe a story with an evil antagonist and a lovely, innocent protagonist or, in modern terms, a lying, cheating, no-good sumbitch and his or her shining light of a spouse, deserving of all the sympathy. We all kinda suck sometimes and never more than when we are in conflict.

 

 

I know what you mean which is why I try to remember to state that we're only getting one side of the story and I could be completely wrong in these types of posts--I know I don't always remember, unfortunately. And I also try to invite the OP to bring their partner to the forum to possibly share their side or see what has been written. However, with the majority of situational help threads, that's just the nature of the beast...it's almost always one sided and we do the best that we can with the information presented. We'll never know all the intricacies to each story and even if we did, I bet we'd all still have differing opinions about what is going on. I agree, I don't really like threads that present "my partner is evil and I'm a victim" but I also can't see how the advice of "letting" each partner do whatever they want is beneficial when there is clearly some dishonesty, cheating, and an overall lack of respect backstory that might just be coming to light right now. If the OP knew about some affairs in the past, the question is did they work through those issues? Did they get swept under the rug and now the swinging issues right now are magnifying the huge dust bunny under that rug? If there was cheating during their dating years, early marriage years, and possibly currently, there is good cause to question the OP's wife about her motives, feelings toward the husband and relationship, the degree of honesty and communication she possesses, and how much of a priority the husband is to her. Does she see this arrangement as more of a matter of convenience, for example, she gets a husband to pay the bills while she goes out to have fun? Was there any communication in their dating years about non-monogamy or possible open relationship/marriage? These are just basic questions that we might never know and quite possibly the OP himself might never find out.

 

I suck at finding specific threads on the forum, but I think there was one in particular that seemed to have an "all cheaters are evil" vibe. I believe I responded to it and tried my best to show that all cheaters are not all evil. I did my best to show the exact reasons of why I cheated and why Mr. Sun cheated all those years ago. I'd like to believe we're not evil but maybe I'm wrong. I wanted to show that "once a cheater always a cheater" isn't always true. People are imperfect. We fuck up. We feel things that can be questionable. We do things that can hurt other people and we often are too focused on ourselves to see that. Anyway, I still hold out hope that I've completely misread the OP's situation, or if I haven't, that they can work things out. I hope that the OP can come back with an update one day to say things are much better, that there's no more cheating, more listening and respect from both sides. I hope a lot of good things for the OP and his wife, as I always do for each couple that comes here asking for help...but I know that some things cannot be overcome in a relationship, for one reason or another.

[beardedone 50]

I'm sorry, MJD, but if you can't stop "past a certain point," then maturity is in question. Yea, iron will and all that. We are not animals.

Even assuming that were true, if you and your mate(s) have previously decided upon limits, and you know you give in "past a certain point," then it is incumbent upon YOU not to get to that point until acknowledgement is made by your mate(s.) Even as a raging hormone teenager, we all know where the limits are; it is up to the individual if they choose to exceed those limits. During the heat of the moment, if one thinks, "well, that's a dumb rule anyway," -- that is just a rationalization to do what we want to do regardless. We are still responsible, individually.

[mauijanedoe 1,414]

I'm sorry, MJD, but if you can't stop "past a certain point," then maturity is in question. Yea, iron will and all that. We are not animals.

 

While I'm open to that as a possibility, only it and lactose intolerance have remained unchanged over the decades. Even my eye color has shifted a little. Plus, I really do have iron will in every other area of my life (hence the continued existence of my ex-husband ). However, there is some interesting neuroscience out there researching sexual response that seems to indicate that there is a biochemical/hormonal basis for completely disinhibited behavior during sexual arousal, but it only occurs in women. Neuroscientists are only looking at what and not why, but I think it's interesting to speculate on the evolutionary advantages this would confer on the women who exhibited it way back when (and then gifted it to their descendants).

 

Also, we are indeed animals. We are thinking, tool using animals that are capable of space travel and elaborate intellectual constructs explaining why we're not animals, but, yeah, we're animals. And far more of our actions are determined by subtle changes in brain chemistry than is really comfortable to consider.

 

Even assuming that were true, if you and your mate(s) have previously decided upon limits, and you know you give in "past a certain point," then it is incumbent upon YOU not to get to that point until acknowledgement is made by your mate(s.) Even as a raging hormone teenager, we all know where the limits are; it is up to the individual if they choose to exceed those limits. During the heat of the moment, if one thinks, "well, that's a dumb rule anyway," -- that is just a rationalization to do what we want to do regardless. We are still responsible, individually.

 

If, in the heat of the moment, you're capable of thinking, "Well, that's a dumb rule anyway," then I totally agree with you that it's a rationalization. Also, regardless of any other factor, I also agree that we are all individually responsible for what we do. In any case, I'm not weighing in for or against the OP's wife, or for any particular behavior. Instead, I was addressing one specific statement that I found not to be universally true.

[intuition897 2,179]

While I'm open to that as a possibility, only it and lactose intolerance have remained unchanged over the decades. Even my eye color has shifted a little. Plus, I really do have iron will in every other area of my life (hence the continued existence of my ex-husband ). However, there is some interesting neuroscience out there researching sexual response that seems to indicate that there is a biochemical/hormonal basis for completely disinhibited behavior during sexual arousal, but it only occurs in women. Neuroscientists are only looking at what and not why, but I think it's interesting to speculate on the evolutionary advantages this would confer on the women who exhibited it way back when (and then gifted it to their descendants).

 

Also, we are indeed animals. We are thinking, tool using animals that are capable of space travel and elaborate intellectual constructs explaining why we're not animals, but, yeah, we're animals. And far more of our actions are determined by subtle changes in brain chemistry than is really comfortable to consider.

 

 

 

If, in the heat of the moment, you're capable of thinking, "Well, that's a dumb rule anyway," then I totally agree with you that it's a rationalization. Also, regardless of any other factor, I also agree that we are all individually responsible for what we do. In any case, I'm not weighing in for or against the OP's wife, or for any particular behavior. Instead, I was addressing one specific statement that I found not to be universally true.

 

I would be fascinated to read that research, MJD. That's not sarcasm. My experience has been otherwise, but if science has evidence to the contrary, I would be interested to learn more. I suppose it is a sweeping generalization to say that this is true for everyone. As beardedone mentioned, I guess the real issue is knowing one's limits, and stopping short of that point of no return. For someone like yourself, I guess that point is much earlier on than for others.

 

And I wanted to address this other remark as well:

I am constitutionally unable to believe a story with an evil antagonist and a lovely, innocent protagonist or, in modern terms, a lying, cheating, no-good sumbitch and his or her shining light of a spouse, deserving of all the sympathy. We all kinda suck sometimes and never more than when we are in conflict.

I agree with you, more than you know. We are only getting one side of the story, and we're working with what we've got here. All we can do is speak to the situation at hand. I think I agreed with he OP a while back that his wife is not an ogre. I'm sure she has her finer qualities, as we all do. She just sadly doesn't understand what it is she's doing to him. I don't believe in anyone being unredeemable.

[SwingSetWife 444]

I agree with MJD to some extent because I too have exhibited some of the characteristics described.

 

However, if that is the case in this situation it doesn't give the wife an excuse per se. Hubs still needs to figure out for himself if this is something he is going to continue to put up with.

[mauijanedoe 1,414]

I would be fascinated to read that research, MJD. That's not sarcasm. My experience has been otherwise, but if science has evidence to the contrary, I would be interested to learn more. I suppose it is a sweeping generalization to say that this is true for everyone. As beardedone mentioned, I guess the real issue is knowing one's limits, and stopping short of that point of no return. For someone like yourself, I guess that point is much earlier on than for others.

 

I think the first inkling I read was in "Bonk," by Mary Roach, but it could equally have been a footnote in "Sex at Dawn." Or both. "Vagina" by Naomi Wolf also mentions disinhibition, I think based on the work of a particular neuroscientist, but I've just spent 15 minutes skimming and I can't find what I'm looking for, which is the actual research or the meta-analysis, which is what I read. I want to say it was in something like the Journal of Female Sexuality, but I can't track it.

 

In any case, the study results (some on rats, at least one on humans) did not indicate that this is a universal response. Anecdotally, I've only run into a few women for whom it's true. And, neurochemistry might be an explanation, but it's no more an excuse than alcohol.

[intuition897 2,179]

I think the first inkling I read was in "Bonk," by Mary Roach, but it could equally have been a footnote in "Sex at Dawn." Or both. "Vagina" by Naomi Wolf also mentions disinhibition, I think based on the work of a particular neuroscientist, but I've just spent 15 minutes skimming and I can't find what I'm looking for, which is the actual research or the meta-analysis, which is what I read. I want to say it was in something like the Journal of Female Sexuality, but I can't track it.

 

In any case, the study results (some on rats, at least one on humans) did not indicate that this is a universal response. Anecdotally, I've only run into a few women for whom it's true. And, neurochemistry might be an explanation, but it's no more an excuse than alcohol.

 

I was just going to say that I didn't think it was common. I wish I had this problem. What a novelty that would be, to not have your state of arousal constantly tripped up and slowed down by overthinking and overanalyzing everything. That's just the way I'm wired.

[stonemtncouple 45]

You nailed it beardedone. Divorce is awlfull I feel for the guy. Swinging dosen't save a relationship it just magnifies it the good and the bad.

[swingingnot4me 17]

Thank you for all the advice everyone. We had a long talk last night about everything. Because of the past, Im having trust issues now. We have both decided, it would be best to either be all or nothing on this. Right now, its nothing. Unless I can be on-board with no rules, its just not going to work.

 

We are doing great, and I know she will miss it, but she has decided its best to move passed this and not look back. There are obviously lots of different feelings on what makes swinging work. I dont believe we are animals, and cannot control ourselves. I also dont think you can have a marriage without compromise, and trust. I suppose if anything goes, there is no need for trust or compromise but that sounds like a very hollow relationship.

 

We both took this journey together, and are getting out of it together. We did learn somethings about ourselves in the proccess =) Some good, some not so good obviously. But its not going to end our marriage. It would take a hell of a lot more then that.

[sunbuckus 3,567]

Thanks for letting us know how you two are right now. I hope you two work through the trust issues. I hope you continue to update your thread in the future to let us know how things are working out.

[swingingnot4me 17]

Amen, intuition897.

Much of the discussion above sounds like a spoiled child, I want what I want and I want it now. To hell with who it hurts or the repercussions. There is never any excuse for lying, especially in a lifestyle where honesty is valued so highly. Lying says I know what I did was wrong, but I don't care because I would rather get my rocks off behind my husbands back than talk to him. I've never been a fan of 'look what you made me do.' I call bullshit on that one.

 

It also seems that part of the thrill for her is the sneaking, planning, lying. Maybe it's not so much fun if you know about it and are involved. Knowing that she cheated on you in the past (and probably way more than she's copping to even now) I can only imagine how difficult it is to live with her behavior now.

 

To the op: Have you considered marriage counseling? Or even a mediator type person who can control the conversation and allow you to be able to talk without her interrupting/blowing up at you.

 

I see you both have wildly different expectations of swinging. Have you asked her what her expectations of marriage are?

Is she able to stop her outside conquests while you two work on your relationship?

 

We may do some marriage counseling. She seems to be listening to me now, and acctually understanding what Im trying to convey. I am in turn listening to her, and understanding where she is coming from. She hasnt cheated on me in many years, it was all in the early years (We both got married very young). I am confident it has not happen in a real long time and I think she has told me about eveything. She honestly knows herself, and knows swinging is like playing with fire for her. It would have to be all or nothing, and shes ok with either.

 

I didnt mean to make it sound like she has been cheating on me up until we decided to try swinging. It has been a long time since that went on, we where totally different people then.