Are my friends swingers?

[Purple flower 19]

My husband and I are not swingers, but we think our friends are. Swinging has been a topic that they bring up jokingly every month with us.

 

We started hanging out with them regularly a year and a half ago, and things have become increasingly weird. It started out with my friend's husband staring at me during dinner, and with sexual innuendos such as my female friend pretending to hump my face (from a foot away) in front of our husbands.

 

It has since progressed to them trying trade seats with us in cars and on the couch. As well, my friend's husband has started to comment on my appearance and touch me in front of my husband and his wife. My friend seems to have no issue with this, and even prompts him to do it. For example, when we were eating fondue, she mentioned that I did not have my food in the boiling oil, and her husband continued to take my hand and help me cook my food while she was watching. The last time we went to dinner, he made blatant sexual remarks about me, and my friend suggested she wanted to grab my ass and then she kissed me on the check. I had too much to drink that night and apparently ended up cuddling with them on the couch, but I remember nothing. When I found out what I had done I apologized, but they insisted it was a lot of fun and that I should not be ashamed.

 

It's all done in such a way that is subtle enough where my husband does not get offended, yet blatant enough where he also feels that there is a fair to good chance that they are merely trying to casually broach the topic of swapping or something, that we can't quite pinpoint.

 

There's also the factor, that between us, I tend to have more in common in conversation with her husband, where my husband seems to have more in common with his wife, and so, either by accident or intent out conversations often tend to split along those lines.

 

They have also starting pushing us to stay over at their house when we hang out, and they are pushing us to go on trips with them.

 

Based off of this, what would you guys tend to think of the situation, and what are your opinions of what their intents might be? It's especially difficult to discuss how to proceed when there isn't any real certainty in what the actual situation might be.

 

Thank you.

[SW_PA_Couple 4,023]

First of all, I welcome you to The Swingersboard. I hope that you find the information and advice here to be valuable.

 

Your friends might be swingers. But whether swingers or not, that are acting badly. If this is a play that is designed to get you into bed with them, they should simply tell you what they want. If they are simply goofin' around, then they are remarkably insensitive.

 

Now, on your part, if you value the friendship, you should ask them, "what are you two getting at?" If they come out with, "we want to get into your pants", you can choose a response:

 

a) We like you guys but we feel that would ruin our relationship.

 

b) Maybe someday. For now maybe you can tell us more about why you feel this way.

 

c) Let's get a hotel room now.

[Purple flower 19]

My husband and I have decided to not confront them. It would be too awkward. We are just trying to find out if the motive for their behaviour is possibly that they are swingers.

 

I have not found any stories similar to this online, and everything I have found involved a woman being hit on by her friend's husband while they are alone. However, my friend's husband has only hit on me in front of her. She has no reaction to what he does, and often plays into what he is talking about. He has started asking me to do stuff with him alone, but I have avoided going.

 

The most my friend has complained about was that no one ever flirts with her when they go out (it felt like she was implying that my husband should flirt with her). Also, she was upset when he decided to tell me that I am the most beautiful woman in the world. When he saw her reaction he added "aside from my wife".

 

If they are swingers, than why would they decide to not be upfront with us?

[cplnuswing 4,712]

Hard to tell. Coming on too strong isn't a trait automatically exhibited by all swingers. Easier said than done perhaps, but why don't you just ask them? Asking the question doesn't automatically mean agreement, and even if their answer is no, they are not, then you can use the question as a springboard into discussing the behavior of theirs that is making you feel a little uneasy.

[Chicup 41]

It is quite possible they are not swingers but want to try, with you and are trying to judge from your reactions if they can bring it up or not.

[mauijanedoe 1,414]

They're not being upfront in what they want and you're not being upfront in asking what they want. Somebody sometime might want to actually ask the awkward questions, but in the meantime strangers on the internet can only guess. Personally, I can't imagine anything more awkward than continuing to have your boundaries tested, over and over, so I'd just ask, but you're not me.

 

I think the reason you won't find stories like this on-line is that your friends' behavior is so crass and tacky, plus atypical of (many? most?) swingers. As to whether they actually are swingers or not, my guess is not, although they might like to be. Or, it may have nothing to do with swinging and everything to do with having poor boundaries and no impulse control.

 

Unless you actually like what they're doing, you might want to tell them what makes you uncomfortable.

[grayfox42104 38]

I think your friends are swingers with very little experience and are not exactly sure how to approach you or they are "wanna be" swingers and have found a couple they want to experiment with and are still not sure how to approach you. I think your first step is to decide if you two are interested in swinging, whether it be soft swing of full swing. Then if you are interested, I would pop the question to them and find out for sure. However, if you are not interested, I think you should let them know that their sexual flirting is making you uncomfortable and you hope you are not hurting their feelings, but please stop.

[ViSexual 1,008]

It sounds like you and your husband have considered what you'd do if they came out and made it clear. If you really wouldn't want to play with this couple then, like some have said, you need to bring it out in the open and tell them that it's just not something you two would be interested in.

 

But if it's something that you two find stimulating with this couple, well, your husband should begin flirting with the other wife.

 

If they are really interested in swinging, at whatever level, with you two it will progress at your chosen speed. I agree with the folks who think that this couple is new to swinging and taking small, uncertain, steps.

[Guy1964 177]

I've been in a similar situation with friends. Actually, that's how I came to find out more about swinging. They were very experienced swingers, so there was none of the physical stuff. They hinted, and then the wife approached my wife. I researched it and talked about it, and decided it wasn't for us. (I liked and enjoyed the folks here so much I stayed on the forum.) We remained fast friends with them.

 

I think it's important to interpret their attempts as being naive, rather than anything malicious. Something that remains unsaid can be a problem in any relationship. Maybe just get the idea out on the table: "Are y'all swingers?" Just make sure to project that you're cool with their lifestyle choice, and that could open the door to ending the uncomfortable innuendos.

[Fundamental Law 2,882]

Swinging necessarily involves social graces. Couples learn to approach one another, to go through the ballet of deciding whether there is chemistry, to gently reject, and to quietly send the message that they are interesting in playing. Style counts. Your friends seem awkward and a bit 'newbie'.

 

As grayfox suggested, you need to take control of the situation. Here are the steps.

 

1. You and your spouse need a candid discussion of your mutual level of interest. It need not be a deep discussion, but you need to be clear. Are you comfortable being naked and playing with these folks? Are you interested? What boundaries would you set?

2. That outcome needs to be communicated. The easiest way to do this is for the two ladies to get together--coffee, shopping, nail salon, whatever--and to have a brief conversation. It might seem awkward but it need not be. Let's assume that you are Alice and the other wife is Betty...

 

"Betty, we've sensed that you and Bob are interested in spending more intimate times with us. Andy and I have chatted, we are flattered, we value you and Bob as friends and we wouldn't want to risk that friendship on something that we are simply not comfortable with." If that's your position, they will understand, end of discussion.

 

Alternatively,

 

"Betty, we've sensed that you and Bob are interested in spending more intimate times with us. If we're wrong, tell me now. Otherwise, Andy and I have chatted and we are intrigued by the idea. We're a little new to this and we spoke about things that are important to us and to our marriage. For the moment, we think it would be fun to be naked with you, some touching, kissing and so on among us and see where it leads. What do you think? And if you and Bob are agreeable, we might get together next weekend for drinks, dinner and some playtime."

 

It's possible that Betty might be caught offguard, but I doubt it. They have been sending consistent messages. You can respond gracefully yet unambiguously, and in so doing communicate what makes you comfortable and what your limits are. Be sure to make your limits clear, though, because Betty will be relating this to Bob word for word.

[Purple flower 19]

Thank you for all the responses, it generally lines up with how we were feeling would be the case.

 

However, we are really unsure of how we feel about the idea of swinging... And if we feel that we are how we would even begin to broach the subject. After all, there is the chance, however small, that we have completely misinterpreted the situation and they aren't actually swingers but simply have boundary issues.

 

Thanks again.

[funcoupledayton 2,708]

You've gotten excellent advice here. You really do need to bring it up with them or they won't be your friends much longer. Decide what you want and then clear the air as Fundamental Law suggested. if you can't come to a decision, you can tell them that. Ask them to knock off the pressure and be mentors to you in your decision making.

 

We'd all love to hear what happens.

[Purple flower 19]

Are you suggesting that they would stop being our friends if we do not pick up on their subtle hints? What if they do just have boundary issues, and we insult them by asking if they are swingers?

[Guy1964 177]

Are you suggesting that they would stop being our friends if we do not pick up on their subtle hints? What if they do just have boundary issues, and we insult them by asking if they are swingers?

 

I think that unspoken statements in relationships have ripple effects that damage the relationship. I doubt they're going to dump you just because you didn't pick up on it. As far as offending them, they're definitely putting out vibes. There is no way they're going to be surprised that you've considered the possibility they're swingers.

 

Regarding your earlier question, I think direct and gentle honesty is the best way to go. It sounds like in your case the truth is "It's something we've never really considered and we really don't know enough about it." My experience is that swingers are generally very willing to share their experiences and knowledge if they feel safe in doing so. "Safe" defined as having their privacy respected and not being judged.

[GoldCoCouple 4,063]

We seem to think that they are wannabe swingers...a mistake that is sometimes made when a couple is starting out. They may have talked about swinging and thought 'well, who do we know that we would like to swing with' and the two of you are the winners so they are flirting and 'fishing' trying to see if there is any mutual interest. Me and my SO believe that trying to make friends into swinging friends is almost always a mistake and usually will cost you your friends, but these friends haven't figured that out yet. Since you don't want to just talk about this with them (and we understand that), maybe just try to make comments when the situations arise that will defuse the situation and pass on the message that you are not interested. Just a little comment that clearly says 'not interested' might be enough (especially if they constantly get the 'not interested' comment whenever they try). Just say something about how you are married and devoted to each other and have no intentions of that changing.

[Purple flower 19]

Today I talked to my friend regarding what my husband and I suspected. She seemed to get very defensive right away, and tried to turn the situation around on me. I am actually quite offended at some of the things that said and implied.

 

I only brought up the fact that they are always joking about swinging, and asked if there why they joke about it so often. she said she jokes about it to make people uncomfortable. Furthermore, she said it creeps her out, and that her husband is the only man for her. However, her and her husband are the ones bringing it up every other time we see them.

 

Then she tried to turn it around on me saying that they were joking about it one night in particular because I fell on her husband and they were just teasing me for looking uncomfortable. She also asked if I was propositioning them. I told that we were just wondering why it is just a hot topic for them. When I asked not to tell her husband about our conversation she said she had to because it was so funny.

 

The thing that really offended me was her response to my question about why her husband always stares at me and repeatedly tells me I am beautiful in front of my husband and her. She responded only in regards to one event saying that he was drunk and wanted a laugh. I fail to find that kind of behaviour funny, and if anything if that is his intention it is very offensive.

 

Overall, I fell that she avoided directly answering my question, and I got this entire rant just from asking why they are always joking about swinging. Personally we would not have judged them if she had said they were swingers, but her response has made me really uncomfortable. I almost feel like they hangout with us to make us uncomfortable.

 

Does it sound like she was avoiding answering the question?

[mauijanedoe 1,414]

Does it sound like she was avoiding answering the question?

 

Meh. Not exactly, because she clearly stated that the idea of swinging creeps her out. However, it does sound as if she got defensive (people often are when they're called on their shit) and as if, when you dig a bit, that they're not particularly nice people.

[two4youinswva 3,068]

Meh. Not exactly, because she clearly stated that the idea of swinging creeps her out. However, it does sound as if she got defensive (people often are when they're called on their shit) and as if, when you dig a bit, that they're not particularly nice people.

 

I was thinking that I don't know if they are swingers or not, but either way I don't think I'd want to hang out with them.

[Purple flower 19]

There were somethings that happened on the same night that my friend was talking about, that I had not mentioned on here before. I had too much to drink that night, and I don't remember it but my husband does. Neither of us remember me falling on her husband as she claims I did. The next day she seemed excited that I cuddled with them (while blackout drunk). She failed to mention that she had kissed me on the cheek, after being prompted by her husband. I have a vague memory of her husband getting intense and saying how much girl on girl stuff turns him on. Lastly, right before everyone went to bed, her husband attempted to pick me up, but did not acknowledge my husband who was beside me watching him.

[Fundamental Law 2,882]

Furthermore, she said it creeps her out, and that her husband is the only man for her. However, her and her husband are the ones bringing it up every other time we see them.

 

When I asked not to tell her husband about our conversation she said she had to because it was so funny.

 

Overall, I fell that she avoided directly answering my question, and I got this entire rant just from asking why they are always joking about swinging. Personally we would not have judged them if she had said they were swingers, but her response has made me really uncomfortable. I almost feel like they hangout with us to make us uncomfortable.

 

Does it sound like she was avoiding answering the question?

 

You called the question and it made her uncomfortable. Yes, she was avoiding the question. Read about "projection" in the psychology literature to understand her response.

 

Of course she is going to talk to her husband about it, "word-for-word" as we said previously.

 

There are three possible outcomes, see what happens.

 

1. They will want to set boundaries and remain friends.

 

2. They will repudiate you. Be happy and move on.

 

3. They will open a door. Send them to this forum for advice.

 

Every LS couple had to figure out how to take the first step. Candidly, it's exciting and awkward, scary and different. It gets easier the 2nd, 3rd,...nth time.

 

Whatever their response, the episodes allows you and your spouse to have a conversation about what you two want. And that's what matters.

[funcoupledayton 2,708]

Are you suggesting that they would stop being our friends if we do not pick up on their subtle hints? What if they do just have boundary issues, and we insult them by asking if they are swingers?

 

I'm suggesting you won't want to be friends much longer if they keep acting like that. I surely wouldn't want to hang around people behaving like them, and I am a swinger. It sounds like things are escalating, rather than chilling with your current approach of ignoring it. She's pouting about not being flirted with and your husband complimenting you? The husband is overly flirtatious with you. It's just not comfortable or fun. I don't think it will get better without being upfront and verbal about it. Eventually you won't want to hang out with them anymore.

 

I would use Fundamental Laws script as it applies to you. If you want to be friends you can't worry about offending them with honest questions. I have close friends. Sometimes we offend each other. We either let it go or bring it up. We remain close friends based on our values, and our experiences and enjoyment of each others company. One offense is not going to destroy that. That's how friendship works. Maybe in a couple years you'll be laughing together, "Remember that time you thought we might be swingers?!" Now, you might all be naked in bed together at that point... Who knows!

[funcoupledayton 2,708]

I see that you talked with them, I'm glad it's out in the open. Sorry it didn't go so well.

 

It really doesn't sound like they are the best people to hang around. Hopefully things even out with them and you find other nice couples to spend time with.

[swing.kidz 367]

You didn't blindside her with the conversation, did you? If you did, that could also explain her defensive response..if she/they are only in the initial stages of exploring the idea of swinging, then she probably doesn't even know how to articulate what she wants to herself or her husband yet, let alone articulate an answer to you from out of the blue. Clear, concise and introspective communication is essential, but sometimes even more so is the tact/strategy you employ when you begin communicating. So, I wouldn't necessarily translate her defensiveness as being a bad friend or deliberately being offensive...it could be as a result of how you approached the subject.

 

These types of scenarios are hard to provide any real advice because we only get your side of the story...there are 4 sides to this story, so take what I say with a grain of salt.

[Purple flower 19]

The only thing I know at this point is that I feel violated by what what she said to me today. She seemed very defensive about whether she is a swinger or not, but she seemed very selective about her wording. In particular she said that her husband is "the only man for her", but she's continues on to semi flirt with me regarding falling on her husband and not remembering that night. I have wondered if they just wanted a threesome with me because of the vibe I get from them when i am alone with them.

 

At the end of the day, it does not matter what their intentions are. I just want them to own up to how they have acted. I have never had friends act like this with before, and honesty I would be way more forgiving if they were swingers. I find it creepy if they just have boundary issues this skewed. Lastly, if they were really not guilty of doing this on purpose I think she would have apologized for making us uncomfortable.

[Guy1964 177]

I think she's jealous of being reminded of the attention that her husband pays to you. I'm going to bet that she knows her husband is suggesting exactly that, and she's upset because it hit a little too close to home.

 

If someone can't handle you stating things how you see them, you don't need them in your life.

[cplnuswing 4,712]

All I've got to go on is pixels on a screen, so take that into account, but I'll be blunt and say it is past time to find some new and better friends.

[GoldCoCouple 4,063]

I still think that they are wannabees and you called them on it. Otherwise she would have just laughed and said that you are silly/crazy/joking/etc. Instead she got defensive...usually a sign that you've hit the mark (hand in the cookie jar, 'I'm not taking a cookie!'). Sounds like things are going down hill at this point and I don't think you will ever get an apology. If you want to keep them as friends, defuse the situation and just play it off as silliness (silly us, jumping to the wrong conclusions) or start looking for some new friends (sorry). Don't know how you feel, but it sounds like there are a bunch of 'swingers' who are trying to be better friends than they are and we don't even know you (other than what you have shared with us here). I guess us heathens aren't that bad (lol).

[Purple flower 19]

We will only continue being friends with them if they come to us, and explain how they think how they were acting was appropriate. They seemed to have a different definition of 'joking around' means. Furthermore, she failed to see how my question went beyond what happened on one night because I was referring to the last year and half.

 

Thank for your response, and I agree with you that she still seemed to being lying.

[Fundamental Law 2,882]

So they chose option 2. They pretended nothing happened and repudiated you. Move on.

 

While generalizations are inherently dangerous, there are three themes that seem to run through stable LS couples: they trust one another; they communicate with one another; they have a level of emotional intimacy with each other. Collectively, this allows comfortable communication about interest (or lack thereof) in playing with others.

 

This couple might be stable in the vanilla world. Sounds like they might not yet be ready for the LS world. That's their issue.

 

There is a different question: are you/spouse ready for the LS world? Many/most couples are not and will never be. This is where the three themes come to the fore.

[Alura 2,773]

Are you suggesting that they would stop being our friends if we do not pick up on their subtle hints? What if they do just have boundary issues, and we insult them by asking if they are swingers?

 

I'd suggest y'all buy a book on Body Language, and then watch them carefully next time the four of you are together. For instance, when two people are thinking about kissing, their gazes switch between their lips and their eyes. Should you and your husband decide y'all want to play with them ask them my late wife's favorite question: "How do y'all feel about swinging?" If y'all decide you don't want to play, don't ask. You, the wife, should ask the question. It's less threatening than if the man does. BTW, might y'all be sending "body talk" without realizing it?

[Purple flower 19]

I already did talk to my friend, and I will not be bringing it up again. My husband and I will not be hanging out with them again unless they acknowledge how their actions have offended us. I don't know how anyone on here would react to a friend randomly trying to pick you up while you asleep without acknowledging your partner, but I find it very creepy. I would not be comfortable around them unless they apologize, and I am not expecting that to happen

[Guy1964 177]

I know you may not have received the answers you wanted, but I want to thank you for posting this difficult question. I've followed the responses, and I've definitely learned a lot. (I'm not being sarcastic.)

[two4youinswva 3,068]

I don't know how anyone on here would react to a friend randomly trying to pick you up while you asleep without acknowledging your partner, but I find it very creepy

 

Many of us on the board would at a minimum be a bit pissed if this happened, so yeah, we get it.

 

Best of luck to you!

[2fitfunsters 32]

They sound like they are awkward and trying to figure out what they want and are testing the waters. They may not be on the same page as a couple as she sounds like she is trying to find out what her own boundaries ate within her relationship with her husband. Very awkward and clumsy on their part. I wouldn't take offense though. If you are uncomfortable with certain things, let them know and if they don't cease that behavior, then they aren't respectful of you. If you enjoy your friendship, keep communication open and honest on your end and you can weather through friendship speed bumps.

[intuition897 2,179]

At the end of the day, it does not matter what their intentions are. I just want them to own up to how they have acted. I have never had friends act like this with before, and honesty I would be way more forgiving if they were swingers. I find it creepy if they just have boundary issues this skewed. Lastly, if they were really not guilty of doing this on purpose I think she would have apologized for making us uncomfortable.

 

If you want my first impression of what the hell they're up to, I would say they're probably curious about swinging regardless of what she says. My guess? That moment when you fell on top of her husband was probably the catalyst. The likely went home and had THE hottest sex they ever had in their entire marriage. The reason they focus on you is because you were the one involved, not your husband. I wouldn't take too much offense by it; they're just confused and trying to figure things out. That doesn't mean you have to put up with it if it makes you uncomfortable, especially when they are so unwilling to consider how it makes you feel. I'd just tell them they should own up to what appears to be their experimenting on you and admit they are interested in swinging, because you don't like friends lying to you. You want honesty, you want an apology and/or you definitely want them to quit making you and your husband feel uncomfortable! It's just rude.

 

When I say not to take too much offense, I mean that they may not realize what it is they're doing. The fascination with it is so great that it blinds them to the effect their actions have on others. I went through this with my friend and her husband. She discovered she was attracted to women (really, REALLY attracted to women), and her husband was always the experimental type anyway. They knew we were into the lifestyle, and so she propositioned me (me, not us) to have a threesome. I said no for a number of reasons. She was confused by this. She incorrectly assumed that sex meant nothing at all to me, and that it didn't matter that my husband wouldn't be involved. I also knew where they were coming from, and didn't think they should be involved in swinging yet until they got some of their own stuff sorted out. She basically wanted to be involved with another woman but having her husband there was a necessary evil, something to keep her from feeling like she was cheating. Not going there. Besides I love this woman like she's my sister, and I had NO interest in risking that, especially considering the circumstances.

 

Anyway, it was a bit of a faux pas on their part to proposition me the way they did, but it was forgiven because I understood that they just didn't understand what it was they were doing. Does that make any sense?

[2good4better 35]

Could the original situation(s) be interpreted as a very sexually-outward couple intruding on another that is not as open? Some couples are very comfortable with their sexuality. Combine that with close friends and liberal amounts of alcohol and you may get a situation that is interpreted as being more than it really is.

[Purple flower 19]

This was not just one incident, it has been building over the last year and a half. We are comfortable joking about sex, but their joking has really focused on me in particular and not sex in general. Alcohol was only really a factor in the latest incident with them. As well, their actions have progressed into touching.