Ethics & Religion Talk Panel on Whether Swinging is Adultery
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By RRTpilot6969
My ex-wife and I were in the lifestyle for several years, and then unfortunately found out she had been cheating (several times in college, and two separate affairs during our marriage) during our entire 10-year relationship, even while we were swingers (but never with other swingers). Took me a long time to reflect on what happened, how I may have contributed, questioned swinging, etc. It took me some time and many of my friends to help me realize she had a LOT of issues, and still does.
I was concerned there could be the possibility my ex-wife would try to accuse me of something false related to our swinging (I made her do it, etc.) that would eventually reveal my past to my new wife. Honestly, I approached the lifestyle with my ex-wife as a gift to her - it was all for her, not myself; I learned a lot about myself, and thought we had completely open, honest, and loving communication, never pushing each other to do something and always respecting our decisions made together as a couple, and truly thought it was improving our marriage. I give you that backstory to tell you my current story…
I’m remarried to an incredible woman, and could go on for days how amazing and stunning she truly is…we’re both devout Christians and attend church regularly. A few months before I proposed (she knew it was coming, ring picked out, etc.), I made it a point to be completely honest with her and tell her about my past in the lifestyle with my ex-wife, no details, just the blunt fact. I’m honest to a fault and deeply believe I owed my now wife the entire truth, especially in case my ex- decided to falsely accuse me of something related to our lifestyle involvement.
She didn’t take it very well, she was very disgusted and felt taken advantage of, etc., and I actually thought at one point she wouldn’t accept my proposal. It took a little while, but we finally worked through it, but not after some very specific questions she had about it all…which I tried very hard to still vaguely side-step (going into steamy sex details about an ex- with your current girlfriend isn’t exactly wise course of action).
My current wife is more reserved and conservative in her beliefs, but popular and stylish, and not at all a prude. She immediately denounced swinging and asked if I wanted her to do the same, pictured me doing all these gross orgies with ugly people, etc…typical mainstream misconceptions and misunderstandings of what the lifestyle really is…and I explained it to her. She’s not the most confident woman in bed, part of her reserved side, but I’ve been trying to get her out of her sexual shyness shell so to speak for a while.
But for the past couple years, year of engagement and year of marriage, our sex frequency has gone down considerably, almost seems like she’s disinterested. I have to initiate sex all the time, she never does oral (giving or receiving) or any other foreplay, and she makes it seem like a task to get done and over with most of the time. [side note, she’s performed oral on me once, while she was on her period because she felt obligated, which I stopped her and told her she didn’t have to just because of that and felt she HAD to please me, I’m a gentleman, and not selfish. She took it as I didn’t like how she was doing it, so she claims to this day…]
It worries me, and I’ve brought up my frustrations a couple times and she actually listened, but nothing really has changed, she hasn’t opened up and communicated or appear to feel more comfortable during sex. There have been extremely brief glimpses of hope at times though (before I discussed my frustration)… like when I was trying to skirt details of explaining the lifestyle, I did ask her about her sexual history and if she had ever had a one night stand before, which she did admit to me she’s had one (so at least one, maybe more, which was a encouraging in my opinion) and I was merely relating the similarity to swinging that sex can be for fun and just for sex and to help her see that her desires are not so far off from a swinging couples, it’s along the same lines and even better if you consider the open communication.
Another occasion, she initiated and for once acted like a sex goddess one night we stayed at a friend's house after drinks, wouldn’t let me get up without fucking her, she was vocal, passionate, wild, it was incredible…but she did have some drinks in her. Another - she tried to get me to have sex in a public bathroom when we were out with a bunch of friends once (work friends mind you), which I wasn’t really into and said no…which she got upset and accused me of swinging but I wouldn’t do that with her…caught me off guard a little and made me wonder her real intent for wanting to in the first place, testing me or truly acting on exhibitionism impulse.
With these examples, I’d like to think there’s a sexually free woman in there somewhere, at least I hope, she just doesn’t communicate about this kind of stuff very well, and I really hope her knowledge of my past doesn’t make her feel more inadequate or insecure in bed. If anything, I had hoped it would open her up to feel more comfortable in expressing her desires and sexual prowess with me, but it has definitely not.
I am not trying to get her to be a swinger, and won’t ever bring that up, ever, but I do want to have that same open communication and comfort sexually with just her that I learned from the lifestyle, complete and respectful open honest dialogue about what we both want, like, dislike, etc. I do want her to feel desire and comfort initiating sex on her own more confidently. I just don’t know where to start or how to approach…which is why I’m here, asking some old lifestyle friends for any sage advice or ideas that maybe I’m not thinking of or haven’t tried yet.
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By sweetnnasty
Are there any christian swingers out there, and what feelings do you have about swinging? Sorry it's not more in detail... just short and sweet. Any advice would be great... thanks.
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By Fundamental Law
While this is news, it is not particularly positive news.
Re: Jerry Falwell, Jr and his family, for example here:
https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-falwell-relationship/
Here are the first two paragraphs of the report:
WASHINGTON – In a claim likely to intensify the controversy surrounding one of the most influential figures in the American Christian conservative movement, a business partner of Jerry Falwell Jr has come forward to say he had a years-long sexual relationship involving Falwell’s wife and the evangelical leader.
Giancarlo Granda says he was 20 when he met Jerry and Becki Falwell while working as a pool attendant at the Fontainebleau Miami Beach hotel in March 2012. Starting that month and continuing into 2018, Granda told Reuters that the relationship involved him having sex with Becki Falwell while Jerry Falwell looked on.
Ignoring the political aspects of the timing of all of this, there are some takeaways.
1. Political leanings are irrelevant to biological drives, sexual fantasies, and the behaviors that follow.
2. The problems arise from the evident hypocrisies: preaching 'family values' (however defined) while practicing something beyond a standard of marital monogamous heterosexuality.
3. Institutions and groups that perpetuate such hypocrisies typically respond the same way, namely by denouncement and expulsion of the person(s) who have been "found out" and restatement of the institutional/group value.
4. There is a business dispute including accusations of extortion folded into all of this.
It is absurd to imagine that leaders are somehow immune from fantasies and the intentions to act on those fantasies. What would be more helpful are commonsense boundaries between public and private lives as well as reasonable display of integrity. Even then, humans find ways to accommodate 'sinful behaviors' while embracing integrity:
Rick: How can you close me up? On what grounds?
Captain Renault: I'm shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on in here!
[a croupier hands Renault a pile of money]
Croupier: Your winnings, sir.
Captain Renault: [sotto voce] Oh, thank you very much.
[aloud]
Captain Renault: Everybody out at once!
Neither the evangelical community nor Mr. Falwell's employers should be "shocked, shocked" to find that (even) their annppointed spokesperson enjoyed variety in sexual expression, apparently with the knowledge and consent and participation of his wife of 34 years. Adopting the usual denouncement-and-expulsion-upon-being-found-out strategy ("Do as we say, not what he did!--He was weak and you must be strong!") merely reinforces the idealized pretense of purity. The reality is that tensions between sexual suppression and sexual expression are as old as civilization. While individuals and institutions can impose rules on themselves and set expectations for others, a bit of realism would be welcome: the aforementioned tensions cannot be "wished away". At the same time, business dealings with playmates might be predicted to end badly, as appears to have happened in this case.
The Reuters article concludes:
In a statement released Friday, before news of the relationship with Granda became public, Liberty University said its “decision whether or not to retain Falwell as president has not yet been made.” Its board of trustees, the statement read, “requested prayer and patience as they seek the Lord’s will and also seek additional information for assessment.”
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By lizandtom
My wife and I have been together for 22 years, married 16 and have always had a good relationship. We've been in the LS for just over 4 years. Our first full swap was 3 1/2 years ago. She hit it off with the other guy great; she described him as a tomcat seeking prey. Apparently she likes a somewhat domineering male. Although I was with his wife 1 or 2 times, I really didn't feel the right chemistry, so that was it for me, with exception of some parties we had where it just worked out that I did her. He had asked my wife to call him after that first time, and they have been in in phone contact ever since, once or twice a week, which I had no problem with because my wife has always been upfront with me about all.
When it was known that his wife wasn't my type, he told my wife not to tell me that they had phoned each other because he didn't want me going into aol chat and telling his wife that they had been in contact. Apparently he kept things from his wife. My wife tells me everything so I said that wasn't cool at all. Nevertheless, after 1 MFM with my wife and him, I wasn't into him telling my wife to keep things from me, and him going behind his wifes back to do as he wanted. My wife was enamored with him and though I expressed my grave concern that he was cheating on his wife, I allowed my wife to get together with him on occasion, like once every few months over the past few years but still saying I didn't like him keeping this a secret from his wife, as its something I never would do.
Fast forward to our local club last month. We were chatting with a couple newly acquainted with us in our off premise club, and they said they knew that other couple (we didn't say anything about my wife being with that guy for the past 3 years occasionally), but the other couple says "we know them, his wife cheated on him a few years back; he found out was pissed and told the other woman and they nearly got divorced over it."
Well that was it. When I heard that drama, I said to my wife "that's VERY uncool, and if relative strangers are knowledgeable about their drama, you will probably become known as the other woman of a cheating spouse, and we'll be blacklisted from our local LS community."
So anyway, last night I said why don't we have 3 couples over Sat night because we've only gone dancing at our local club for the past month but haven't had any playtime. She said great, and that she had planned to go out on Friday night with this guy if ok with me. I said, here I am thinking about something for both of us on Sat., and she already has made plans for herself on Friday for an intimate encounter. So now I'm thinking that she really only goes along with all our playdates to keep me in the game, so I'll allow her to keep on going with this other guy. I called her out on it, and she says she just really likes him, but if I demand it's over then she'll be mopey and dissappointed, but will have to deal with it. Anyway, we talked some more and as a solution I am trying to convince her to convince this guy to get his wife in on it; I'll do his wife to take one for the team (she's actually very foxxy) for my wife to be happy and see the guy, but for her to keep on going with him while he's doing it all behind her back is just not cool with me.
What do you think? Thanks.
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By Tahoe
Put up a ad on CC it was flagged which I really don't get. Someone answer before hand. We exchanged email most of the day yesterday. He is married wants to see his wife with another man. But at the end of the emails he told me that his wife wouldn't not be part of it but he was still willing to do it be behind her back. I don't feel comfortable about it. We don't want or need the drama that may come with it. I told him we are going to pass didn't feel comfortable without his wife.
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