What the use of the term "Professional" in a swinger profile implies

[Brad145 58]

 

Another is the term "professional couple" especially if they claim they are only seeking the same. While granted this term can mean different things to different couples (though few have been able to really explain it other then it's just something to add to their profile because others do), to us it smacks of a financial qualifier that has been held against us in the past.

 

 

When I see 'Professional couple', i think 'NOT HWP', and so far it has been right more often than not.

 

One more that really gets me, is when someone messages us looking to meet up, with no face pics on their profile or attached to the message. Sorry, but if you can't take a chance at showing your face in a private message.....

 

'Not into the club scene'......maybe, just maybe, there is a reason for that? People that have this in their profile almost always want to have a first meetup at THEIR place, and aren't flexible about it, wonder why? I've never met any to find out! LOL

[sunbuckus 3,567]

When I see 'Professional couple', i think 'NOT HWP', and so far it has been right more often than not.

 

'Not into the club scene'......maybe, just maybe, there is a reason for that? People that have this in their profile almost always want to have a first meetup at THEIR place, and aren't flexible about it, wonder why? I've never met any to find out! LOL

 

I found these theories interesting but I'm not really sure I would agree. I will say that when I see "professional couple" I think of a couple that a) usually wants to be very, very, very discreet; b) have high level college degrees; and/or c) has a superiority complex.

[Brad145 58]

I found these theories interesting but I'm not really sure I would agree. I will say that when I see "professional couple" I think of a couple that a) usually wants to be very, very, very discreet; b) have high level college degrees; and/or c) has a superiority complex.

 

I think they would LIKE to convey A and B, but you're right, it conveys C. My experience is NHWP as well, YMMV.

[Chicup 41]

I always figured it meant "white collar" but thats about it.

[Looking43 15]

A completely negative profile. It just tells us you are not fun people to be around.

[oursecretfun 67]

My red flag goes up when I read profiles from the elite couples.They are always "professionals" (aren't we all? We work, pay our taxes and don't live in a cardboard box or under a bridge somewhere.) I feel like they would want to see our tax returns and resumes before they would play with us.

 

Probably the strangest and most superficial thing I have ever seen in a profile was--"we are extremely selective and only play with the kind of people who were picked first for teams in gym class." Well, I know for a fact that some of those very people are sitting in prison right now. Pictures usually include these couples rock climbing, participating in triathlons and standing in front of the Eiffel Tower. The first thought I have about this type of couple is that they are all for show, miserable and very lonely because no one meets their high standards.

 

Give me a rowdy, beer-drinking friendly couple that are "hell on wheels" in bed any day.

[AndrewandAnn 360]

My pet peeves relate to all the bigotry and ignorance I see in the way people respond to entirely innocuous facts that people mention in their profiles.

 

Those of you put off by someone mentioning they are "professionals" is a good place to start.

 

Aside from some other obvious distinctions, professionals are typically covered by employment contracts. And those contracts contain broadly worded "morals clauses" that give the employer the right to terminate employment for violating "standards of good citizenship" or for engaging in "moral turpitude" and so on.

 

For professionals, engagement in the lifestyle adds a dimension of real risk (not just of losing one's job, but potentially losing one's career) that is not present for most non-professionals.

 

Seems logical that someone should want to include that fact in their profile and explains why he/she/they may prefer to socialize with other professionals who can appreciate the sensitivity of their situation and the need for genuine discretion.

[littlebit8402 15]

Give me a rowdy, beer-drinking friendly couple that are "hell on wheels" in bed any day.

 

Why can't we meet couples like y'all where we are from!?

[oursecretfun 67]

My pet peeves relate to all the bigotry and ignorance I see in the way people respond to entirely innocuous facts that people mention in their profiles.

 

Those of you put off by someone mentioning they are "professionals" is a good place to start.

 

Aside from some other obvious distinctions, professionals are typically covered by employment contracts. And those contracts contain broadly worded "morals clauses" that give the employer the right to terminate employment for violating "standards of good citizenship" or for engaging in "moral turpitude" and so on.

 

For professionals, engagement in the lifestyle adds a dimension of real risk (not just of losing one's job, but potentially losing one's career) that is not present for most non-professionals.

 

Seems logical that someone should want to include that fact in their profile and explains why he/she/they may prefer to socialize with other professionals who can appreciate the sensitivity of their situation and the need for genuine discretion.

 

 

I didn't mean to offend anyone.

[SW_PA_Couple 4,024]

My pet peeves relate to all the bigotry and ignorance I see in the way people respond to entirely innocuous facts that people mention in their profiles.

Bigot is a pretty strong word to fling at a bulletin board member, don't you think?

[sunbuckus 3,567]

I wish I were more eloquent so I could adequately state how a few of the recent comments on this thread have made me feel but you all will just have to suffer through my use of short and simple words. As our youngest would said, "I feel sad and mad." I feel this way because there seems to be this obvious need to divide people into groups--us versus them. It also seems that for some, this division seems important because the "them" group isn't on the same level in terms of attraction/salary/discretion/sexuality/etc. as the "us" group. Maybe this is one of the reasons why I don't really like to just go the online-profile way. It's so very easy to cast couples aside based on what is or isn't written. It's easy to make preconceived notions and assumptions about those couples. Whenever we go out and meet other couples, I'm always pleasantly surprised to be reminded of how couples are just people like us--as in regular human beings. For some reason, my mind tends to think of other couples as an unknown entity that seems unattainable but when we actually get to sit down and talk with them, I am reminded that they are just like us. Realizing that they probably groan when the alarm clock goes off, hate paying bills, and drool or snore when they sleep actually attracts me more to them. Sure, there are incompatibilities with some couples but the reminder that they are just regular people, living on this planet day to day just like us endears "them" to "us". The "us" and "them" are really just one big group living together on this small planet that's part of a big galaxy that is part of an even bigger universe.

 

In other words...one group isn't better than another group. We're all living to end up dying.

[Fours Company 169]

I was debating how to add to this thread (or if I even should) given the limited free time I find myself with lately to contribute here and without coming across as negative. As someone who has been rejected in the past because we were not "professional" enough, some of these comments have brought the resentment close to home again and your words, Sun, have helped bring things back into perspective on what is really important.

 

You are right. We are all more alike then different. Most of us here appreciate and practice discretion no matter our life or social status. We all take a chance for disapproval or loss by family, bosses and co-workers by our shared "hobby" should we be outed and the risk is no greater, no the outcome any better is one is under a contract or employed "at-will". Nor is someone more or less likely to expose someone simply because they share the same social-economic circles or not.

 

The more we learn about the LS, both in practice and forums such as this, the more and more it seems things are no different than the vanilla world in so far as there are pecking orders and the need to put everyone in boxes of other's own determination. And, yes, I do find that a little sad too.

[mauijanedoe 1,414]

I didn't mean to offend anyone.

 

No, of course not, and you should not feel responsible for offense being taken. It's inevitable in threads like this that occasionally someone will resemble that remark, as it were, and take it personally.

 

We all have red flags in profiles, reasons we say no and move on. It is entirely individual and idiosyncratic and this is the place to air our particular items. If someone reading this thread has one or more of those red flags in their own profile, they have a lot of choices in how to react and not all of them involve being offended. Actually, most of them don't.

[Chicup 41]

I think this may have gone off course a bit, from red flags, to "couples we won't get along with/play with".

 

To me a red flag is in a profile when its all first person "I want this I want that" with no mention of the wife. That to me is a "red flag". Something isn't as its being presented.

Or... "We only play during the day". Thats a red flag that "they are married but not to each other"

 

This is different from things which just show we are not compatible personality wise, or our strike zones are different.

[AndrewandAnn 360]

Bigot is a pretty strong word to fling at a bulletin board member, don't you think?

 

Bigotry occurs when someone, based upon nothing more than their own prejudices, ignorance or feelings of inadequacy, treat another group with contempt, intolerance, fear, distrust, so on.

 

Being labeled an "elitist" (and worse) in a knee-jerk response to the word "professional" appearing in a profile is the definition of bigotry.

 

Perhaps instead of being concerned by the word, we should be more concerned with not practicing it.

[AndrewandAnn 360]

And now that there exists a level of awareness that the word "professional" appearing in a profile has legitimate underpinnings, he/she/they have some new choices about how they might respond.

 

Isn't intellectualism grand? ;-)

[SwingSetWife 444]

My pet peeves relate to all the bigotry and ignorance I see in the way people respond to entirely innocuous facts that people mention in their profiles.

 

Those of you put off by someone mentioning they are "professionals" is a good place to start.

 

Aside from some other obvious distinctions, professionals are typically covered by employment contracts. And those contracts contain broadly worded "morals clauses" that give the employer the right to terminate employment for violating "standards of good citizenship" or for engaging in "moral turpitude" and so on.

 

For professionals, engagement in the lifestyle adds a dimension of real risk (not just of losing one's job, but potentially losing one's career) that is not present for most non-professionals.

 

Seems logical that someone should want to include that fact in their profile and explains why he/she/they may prefer to socialize with other professionals who can appreciate the sensitivity of their situation and the need for genuine discretion.

 

Sorry, but I think this post may hint at why some have said what they have said about the word professionals. Just because I don't have a career that has a "moral contract" doesn't mean that my need for discretion is any less than those that do.

 

I have always associated the word with the couple meaning that would love to compare check stubs to decide if another couple is "worthy" enough of their time. Does this apply to everyone? Of course not. But that doesn't change my view of thinking it is completely meaningless to put it in a swinger profile.

 

Technically my husband is a professional. Feel free to check the actual definition of the word. He drives, not for pleasure but for work. He has to have a special certification to do this. But he is still a blue collar workaholic that comes home with his hands dirty. ... and I wouldn't have it any other way

[MrMarvin 268]

In the end I believe this robust debate proves one thing: everyone has different tastes. That is fine. Who may be right for you may not be for another.

 

On the whole "professional" debate, we view such a description as a positive. We read and interpret it as a couple who portrays themselves as grounded, secure and "grown up." Of course, just interpreting the word does not make it so-- we would still need to meet the couple. We've met couples with the description who we did not click with while we have met others without that description whom we have found to be great people.

 

There again are so many profiles and not enough time. You take what you as a couple personally like and go from there. Don't worry about what someone else thinks. In our case as well, we are finding fun in simply meeting new people and learning further to approach others with an open mind.

 

MrMarvin

[Mochacino 188]

I think for us we would never describe ourselves as "professionals" despite that being the case. In our neck of the woods, it does carry a derogatory conotation with it. But for us red flags include those profiles that seem to sign up for every party or event in a 50 mile radius and then spam the party goers. It seems sketchy, fake and a bit wierd for us. Just my thought.

[Chicup 41]

I think for us we would never describe ourselves as "professionals" despite that being the case. In our neck of the woods, it does carry a derogatory conotation with it. But for us red flags include those profiles that seem to sign up for every party or event in a 50 mile radius and then spam the party goers. It seems sketchy, fake and a bit wierd for us. Just my thought.

 

I know a picture collector that does this.

[oursecretfun 67]

While I do not apologize for my views on this thread, I sincerely regret creating a controversy on an otherwise friendly and open-minded board. Though my post was not the first on this subject, I realize the tone was somewhat abrasive and it displeased some members. But if simply having an opinion on such an incredibly trivial topic makes me a bigot, then I am guilty as charged.

[Brad145 58]

I don't see anything wrong with what you posted, fairly light-hearted discussion that someone took offense to.

 

Better to find out now than when they discover you are short a few letters after your name. :P

[DigginIt 1,132]

We all have things that bother us in profiles and I believe a nice light hearted rant is good for the soul.

 

This is all just opinion but I think the negative connotation of the term "professional" is attributed to white collar vs. blue collar and a sense that someone is setting themselves above another in terms of status. Clearly, there are other reasons that people use the term as mentioned above but let's face it, most people on these sites like to beat their chests to some degree and many of the people that put statements like this on their profile have many others that back up the fact that they are not using it as some way to distinguish how their work is more sensitive than another; they are using it more often than not as an elitist term. I think oursecretfun's observation, 7 out of 10 times is spot on (and again, this is opinion backed by five years of profile reading).

 

Some of our red flags:

• More than 50 photos - you only need a couple, what's up with 13 years worth of photos? Do we need to see every Halloween outfit, since 1987, that you have ever worn?
  
• Age says 41 but their join date was 14 years ago = very suspect indeed.
  
• Profile without a single picture of the guy, not even a body shot = man troll
  
• txt type or hash tags in profile, really?
  
• Stupid names - pussypounder, cock4fuck, educatedsluts, gangbangwhore, etc. These really just make us want to reach right out to you!!! Not.
  
• Lots of misspelled words. We are not the best with grammar sometimes but my god, their isn't a device made after 1999 that doesn't have a fucking spell checker built in.
  
• Free members or members with no pictures.
  
• Members with about a sentence in each section.
   
  

 

I'm sure we have more

[Fours Company 169]

While I do not apologize for my views on this thread, I sincerely regret creating a controversy on an otherwise friendly and open-minded board. Though my post was not the first on this subject, I realize the tone was somewhat abrasive and it displeased some members. But if simply having an opinion on such an incredibly trivial topic makes me a bigot, then I am guilty as charged.

 

I don't think you have cause to either apologize nor do I believe it offended most here. You spoke what some of us here might have also felt when we see such terms and feel the underlying message it conveys, however untended or not. As to a charge of bigotry, apparently that accuser's posts were not only way off but came across as a form of self-projection it seems.

 

We had once been strung along by a couple who choose to identify with that term and claimed compatibility in every other way, yet broke it off once they determined our employment and educational achievements were not up to their level and some of the comments made here have given me the impression they may not have been the only one's who feel and operate that way.

 

As I stated before, the LS carries a risk if a disapproving party such as an employer finds out and the consequences encompasses the social-economic spectrum. It doesn't matter if you feel you have a "career" or a "job" nor if you have a formal contract or hired at will. So while yes, an argument could be made the higher one is in their employment the greater the loss will be in terms of the years of education and advancements spent getting there, however an equal argument could be made of a greater immediate financial loss to someone who lives paycheck to paycheck if they were fired due to moral disapproval. We all carry risk and must rely on other's discretion.

 

As to why some words here may have offended is the fact no matter how one earns a living, most people self-identify a part of themselves with what they do and when it is associated as merely a "job" and implied it has less value then someone else's, it is taken as a criticism of the whole person. As an example, at much of the places I've worked there would be the usually bitching about managers and how much the company sucked, yet as soon as someone outside the organization would say something negative the defensiveness would come out. Though we already knew the place was fucked up, anyone else saying that and it was like it became an attack on the individual.

 

The bottom line is we are in the LS, as I believe most here are, to have fun as well as serve a diversion to the stress and sometimes drudgery of vanilla life and as others here have eloquently pointed out, life is finite. To us we don't care how rich or poor or how many degrees a couple has or if they can file our taxes, operate on our brains or just ring up our purchases. If they are fun to be with, can carry on an interesting conversation and know how to please and be pleased, that's the only criteria that matters.

[christnthms 326]

I'm not so much concerned with a specific phrase or word in a profile, as the tone set.

In that, I have the same concerns as anyone else here.

Elitism will scare me off, but not because of a single word or phrase... tone and context are everything.

Empty profiles scare me off, simply because there isn't enough information to make a real decision.

Profiles with too many clever terms, because it seems like the writer is trying to sell rather than just telling about him/herself.

 

So it's not so much a matter of spotting those terms, as reading the whole thing (or the lack of) and seeing what it tells me overall.

I think most people have the same basic needs, fears, wants... Of course, the specifics vary widely, but the basics are all there.

[Guest sandraandalex]

That's the thing about a Club or House Party , you don't know what people do for a living. I had a mfm threesome once and one man was a doctor , the other was a plumber, both treated me great and were splendid . I'm not that interested in a man's occupation, I'm interested in his preoccupations: how he treats those around him, can he enjoy a good book, can he learn something new. All one has to do is watch The Wives of 'fill in the blank' or the Kardashians to know that being 'professional' does not count for much. Having pre qualifications often keeps out the most qualified.

[Brad145 58]

For the record, my first post in this thread wasn't intended to be a new thread, if a moderator wanted to start a new thread it could have been done without moving my post and having it out of context.

 

I would appreciate it if my posts in this thread were deleted.

 

Thank you!

[JustAskJulie 2,595]

For the record, my first post in this thread wasn't intended to be a new thread, if a moderator wanted to start a new thread it could have been done without moving my post and having it out of context.

 

I would appreciate it if my posts in this thread were deleted.

 

Thank you!

 

Brad,

 

I'm sorry that you took offense to my splitting this off. This was done not because of your post but rather because of the direction that the thread took including and following your response. Beginning with your thread the discussion over "red flags in profiles" moved more towards a discussion of what the use of the term "professional" as a descriptor in a profile means. By splitting these posts off it allowed that discussion to continue while allowing the original discussion to resume on-topic. Your post includes the post you were quoting (and therefore is not taken out of context). This was in no way meant as anything negative against you as the discussion over the what "professional" means is a valid one, your particular post was just a good starting point for the thread split.

 

Julie

[SoFlaCouple 188]

Funny, before this thread, I never paid much attention to the term "Professional" in a profile. I would guess at least half the profiles in my area have that term. I give it about as much thought as something generic in a profile like "we like to have fun."

 

Frankly, it never occurred to me that people would have such a reaction to that word one way or another.

[miacpl30 18]

We have professional in our sdc profile but dont think its derogatory elitist or anything bad. We have met a lot of "professionals" that cant hold a decent conversation. It's just a descriptive term in our book.

[AndrewandAnn 360]

While I do not apologize for my views on this thread, I sincerely regret creating a controversy on an otherwise friendly and open-minded board. Though my post was not the first on this subject, I realize the tone was somewhat abrasive and it displeased some members. But if simply having an opinion on such an incredibly trivial topic makes me a bigot, then I am guilty as charged.

 

Regret is unnecessary.

 

I thank you for the post because it initiated an interesting discussion where people with varying points of view have been stimulated into sharing their thoughts and perhaps we've all learned a little something about ourselves and others along the way.

[AndrewandAnn 360]

Sorry, but I think this post may hint at why some have said what they have said about the word professionals. Just because I don't have a career that has a "moral contract" doesn't mean that my need for discretion is any less than those that do.

 

I have always associated the word with the couple meaning that would love to compare check stubs to decide if another couple is "worthy" enough of their time. Does this apply to everyone? Of course not. But that doesn't change my view of thinking it is completely meaningless to put it in a swinger profile.

 

Technically my husband is a professional. Feel free to check the actual definition of the word. He drives, not for pleasure but for work. He has to have a special certification to do this. But he is still a blue collar workaholic that comes home with his hands dirty. ... and I wouldn't have it any other way

 

Well, now we're getting somewhere, aren't we?

 

Your last paragraph says it all.

 

What makes you assume my hands do not get dirty?

 

Give that some thought.

[AndrewandAnn 360]

I'm not so much concerned with a specific phrase or word in a profile, as the tone set.

In that, I have the same concerns as anyone else here.

Elitism will scare me off, but not because of a single word or phrase... tone and context are everything.

Empty profiles scare me off, simply because there isn't enough information to make a real decision.

Profiles with too many clever terms, because it seems like the writer is trying to sell rather than just telling about him/herself.

 

So it's not so much a matter of spotting those terms, as reading the whole thing (or the lack of) and seeing what it tells me overall.

I think most people have the same basic needs, fears, wants... Of course, the specifics vary widely, but the basics are all there.

 

Serious questions:

 

What causes you to judge someone as an elitist?

 

Can you list some examples?

[SwingSetWife 444]

Well, now we're getting somewhere, aren't we?

 

Your last paragraph says it all.

 

What makes you assume my hands do not get dirty?

 

Give that some thought.

 

I didn't intend to make any assumption about you or your profession. I honestly couldn't care less. I don't mean that in a rude way, it just doesn't matter to me. Hence my post. I was trying to point out that it doesn't matter what anyone's "job" is, so to me there is no point in putting the word professional in a profile at all. That is what makes the word sound "elitest" to me. Why would someone feel the need to put it?

 

Personally I laugh at the idea that this view somehow makes me, or anyone else, a bigot.

 

Sorry that you are taking what appears to be such a personal offense to this post.

[christnthms 326]

Serious questions:

 

What causes you to judge someone as an elitist?

 

Can you list some examples?

 

Speaking only for myself, there is not a word or phrase, but rather a tone. I know, totally subjective. Sorry I can't be more specific. The reason, though, is that the same word/phrase in two different profiles can come off with very different impact (to me). A very carefully worded profile, with no offensive phrases or words, could still trigger the elitist vibe in me. Another might be full of profile "faux pas" and yet come across to me as very genuine, but clumsy (which in some cases is endearing).

[MidWestMan 33]

Ok, I'm going to run full speed into this potential minefield.

 

IMHO, "professional" implies an attitude not a type of employment. In short, it is an attitude that tells me they are mature, responsible, punctual, and can think for themselves. I have met plenty of white collar people who consider themselves "professional" but don't behave like it. Likewise, I have met many people who work in blue collar jobs who I consider more professional than some of my white collar coworkers.

 

For me, "professional" doesn't imply anything related to level of education, salary/hourly rate, own or rent, type of car driven, etc.

 

In addition, I think there are many profiles written without regard to how they may be perceived. Perception is based on prior experience. So, a phrase that may tell me someone is joking or uses sarcasm frequently might be perceived differently by the next person to read the profile. What it comes down to is if I don't like you portray yourself in a profile, we'll probably never meet unless it's through other channels.

[AndrewandAnn 360]

I didn't intend to make any assumption about you or your profession. I honestly couldn't care less. I don't mean that in a rude way, it just doesn't matter to me. Hence my post. I was trying to point out that it doesn't matter what anyone's "job" is, so to me there is no point in putting the word professional in a profile at all. That is what makes the word sound "elitest" to me. Why would someone feel the need to put it?

 

Personally I laugh at the idea that this view somehow makes me, or anyone else, a bigot.

 

Sorry that you are taking what appears to be such a personal offense to this post.

 

Let me set your mind at ease and assure you that you haven't ruined my day ;-)

 

I genuinely find this discussion interesting on several levels and have no animosity towards you or anyone else. (Although I cannot say the same for a couple of folks who, lacking the wherewithal and good taste to address me or this issue in public, sent my way some rather unkind private messages. Saucer of milk, table for two! Meow!! Hiss-hiss!! Hah!!)

 

I did, however, have to chuckle at your declaration that you "didn't intend to make any assumption." Are you sure about that?

 

Quoting your earlier post, "I have always associated the word (professional) with the couple meaning that would love to compare check stubs to decide if another couple is 'worthy' enough of their time."

 

That's about as close to the textbook definition of making an assumption as I think we could invent, right? ;-)

 

Which brings us back to the point to which I was originally referring, this unfortunate tendency by some to leap to negative conclusions about someone else based on nothing more than, in this particular case, a word.

 

Call it bigotry. Call it prejudice. Call it bias. Call it whatever you want. I'm not into being PC, so I use/used the description that I find describes it best.

 

Regardless of the label we use, we all understand what it is. And we should all try to understand it is not particularly helpful.

[AndrewandAnn 360]

I think for us we would never describe ourselves as "professionals" despite that being the case. In our neck of the woods, it does carry a derogatory conotation with it. But for us red flags include those profiles that seem to sign up for every party or event in a 50 mile radius and then spam the party goers. It seems sketchy, fake and a bit wierd for us. Just my thought.

 

In Madison, WI, the word "professional" carries a negative connotation?

 

Madison, a city renown for its university and its rich educational environment and emphasis on higher learning?

 

Yikes.

 

Perhaps the decline of intellectualism isn't being exaggerated after all.

[SwingSetWife 444]

If you are going to quote me- quote me correctly. What I actually said was "I didn't intend to make any assumption about YOU or YOUR profession". That has nothing to do with the assumption that I made, and stand by, about using the word professional. I didn't "assume" that you yourself use that word in your profile. Furthermore, you are quoting me out of context. I responded that I didn't make any assumption about you in regards to your previous post that I assumed you didn't get your hands dirty- which simply isn't true. Let's go back and maybe you can follow your own remarks better so that you can stop being so confused.

 

1. YOU said "professionals are typically covered by employment contracts"; "engagement in the lifestyle adds a dimension of real risk"; "need for genuine discretion

 

-So here we are with your first post on the topic, before I even said anything. What we have here is YOU making plenty of assumptions about the word professional used in one's profile. And whether you agree or not, here we have the so-called elitist attitude that has been mentioned. Why is it elitist? Well, let me attempt to explain it.... again. Because here you imply that if someone doesn't have a particular job, it is not actually a career. Also because if someone does not have a particular career, esp one that doesn't have a moral contract, then they really have no real need for discretion or privacy. These people, since THEY have no need for real discretion, you ASSUME that they couldn't possibly have a moral compass strong enough to keep the discretion and privacy of those that do. Maybe I'm reading too much into your post...? But I don't think so since you clearly state that those that use profession in their profile "prefer to socialize with other professionals who can appreciate the sensitivity of their situation and the need for genuine discretion".

 

2. After all that I said the thing about my husband's career, not to make an assumption about your career, but to illustrate that just because he doesn't have a moral contract doesn't mean he isn't a professional. Even if someone's career doesn't meet the standards of my husband's (ie. he has to have a special certification for his job) doesn't mean they are not professionals. Again, check the actual definition of the word.

 

3. You asked me to give it some thought that you might get your hands dirty at work.

 

4. I didn't feel the need to give that any thought because, as I explained, I didn't make any assumptions about you or your career in the first place.

 

5. You misquote me and have a chuckle about it.

 

So let me clear it up even further. I DID make an assumption about the word professional. I stand by it, and again, I believe that your posts justify that assumption. However, I did NOT make an assumption about you personally in my previous posts. I hesitated to do that because I really don't want this post to turn into something it doesn't need to be, but I feel that after all that has been said, I can only hold my tongue for so long.........

 

You come to this post and instead of adding some food for thought, you get those that have posted previous riled up by calling them bigots and ignorant right out of the gate. Then you go on to say that only your way of thinking can be considered "intellectualism". So if you are getting PMs from members that would rather not turn the post into a flame war- tough titty. It isn't on them, it is on you coming in and personally attacking those that were simply stating their opinions and not intending to attack anyone. Here is my assumption be it right or wrong- no matter what you say about not having your day ruined, you are taking what is being said here as a personal offense and you are replying accordingly. You are not attempting to actually have an intelligent conversation about something that people obviously have differing views about. If you are, then you don't know how to take to people. When you come in calling people stupid right out the gate, you are not saying anything that is going to get them to think about the situation any differently. You are creating an atmosphere where people may respond to you to illustrate their points, but mostly they are just ignoring everything you have to say because you are putting them on the defensive. Not cool. Think yourself more intelligent than all of us if you want; it doesn't affect my life at all. But you know what? That doesn't make you smart, it makes you elitist.

 

Now back to the discretion thing, and I will have said my piece. I am a housewife right now (a nurse in the off-season ). I have one small child that just started pre-k and another child on the way. I don't have a moral contract to be a housewife. In fact, there is no one in my personal or professional life that gives two shits who I have sex with. However, I have a very real need for discretion. Just because I don't have people that would care one way or the other that I am a swinger doesn't mean that I want everyone knowing. And although it might not matter at 5 years old if someone told my daughter I was a swinger, it could be an issue later. I choose to keep my privacy because it is my choice, and if that isn't a real reason for you- then YOU are the one that has a problem with discretion, not me.

[JustAskJulie 2,595]

You can be a professional at many things. Whether you are a white collar professional, a professional mechanic, or a professional in the "sex trade". People tend to mean different things, which is where this topic brings good food for thought. Perhaps it is a word that many use thinking everyone else knows what they mean when in fact different people take it different ways. As I've read this discussion I've had several thoughts go through my head. The more I've gone around it in my brain the more I have come to the conclusion that it's a word people tend to use because people tend to use it without giving it a whole lot of thought as to why they bother to include it.

 

When I see the word, I typically think "white collar". In our particular area I tend to think security clearance. I also tend to think that you if we went out with you that you would not be forced to make a choice between having a drink or eating dinner, or that you wouldn't have to try to bum money for a cab ride home at the end of the night (both of which have happened when we've gone out with groups of swingers locally).

[Mochacino 188]

In Madison, WI, the word "professional" carries a negative connotation?

 

Madison, a city renown for its university and its rich educational environment and emphasis on higher learning?

 

Yikes.

 

Perhaps the decline of intellectualism isn't being exaggerated after all.

 

In the various LS groups we are in it does. People assume if you have that in your profile you are looking for a certain level of affluence. It has nothing to do with the level of actual intelligence but the perceived intelligence of those they are trying to attract. We were invited to go tour a private club that bragged on how "upscale" and "professional" they were. It was not. But they were trying to attract upscale and professional couples so thats what they were branding themselves as...

[Mochacino 188]

 

When I see the word, I typically think "white collar". In our particular area I tend to think security clearance. I also tend to think that you if we went out with you that you would not be forced to make a choice between having a drink or eating dinner, or that you wouldn't have to try to bum money for a cab ride home at the end of the night (both of which have happened when we've gone out with groups of swingers locally).

Ok those sound like horrible and funny stories! Maybe that should spark a new thread! ;-)

[mauijanedoe 1,414]

I genuinely find this discussion interesting on several levels and have no animosity towards you or anyone else. (Although I cannot say the same for a couple of folks who, lacking the wherewithal and good taste to address me or this issue in public, sent my way some rather unkind private messages. Saucer of milk, table for two! Meow!! Hiss-hiss!! Hah!!)

 

I'm one of the people who left you negative rep and signed it so you'd know who it was from. I believe my comment was that being argumentative and publicly calling out other members was a dick move. It is. Which (and I'm not being ironic) is half of the reason why I didn't do so publicly. The other half is that there's a reason this place isn't like other forums on the web. Instead of being a sewer filled with trolling, condescension, and ignorance masquerading as clever flame wars, the vibe here is friendly, helpful and - even when members disagree - cordial. Part of what keeps it that way is active but mostly invisible moderators, a positive/negative rep system that acts as a form of peer review and the willingness of almost everyone to eschew the confrontational approach. It's not a system or a venue that takes kindly to an approach that includes public chastisement, something I think most forum members will agree is a good thing, particularly given how unpleasant this thread is in so many spots.

[cplnuswing 4,713]

Ok those sound like horrible and funny stories! Maybe that should spark a new thread! ;-)

 

Like the contact we got on SLS once where the profile talked about being a discrete single male, but then the yahoo address provided should we want to IM him was a name. A preacher (married one at that) here in town that one of us knew of enough to say for sure it was him based on the faceless but recognizable once you had the name profile picture. Professional man of the cloth, maybe, professional swinger, NOT!!!

 

I thought we had the word in our profile, but went and checked and we don't, whew! It can mean many things. My default take on it is how someone behaves - will be there if they say they will be there, polite, etc. Same thing as "behaves in a professional manner" on your performance review, no matter what your job is, blue or white collar, or the opposite, "they were very unprofessional on the phone when I called to ask about it."

 

But, and I have seen profiles where I took it this way, when taken in context with other things, it was more of a class or status type categorization. Those are rare though, normally I think people just put it in there to indicate they treat others with respect and the way they would like to be treated, doesn't have anything to do with where they get their paycheck.

[AndrewandAnn 360]

If you are going to quote me- quote me correctly. What I actually said was "I didn't intend to make any assumption about YOU or YOUR profession". That has nothing to do with the assumption that I made, and stand by, about using the word professional. I didn't "assume" that you yourself use that word in your profile. Furthermore, you are quoting me out of context. I responded that I didn't make any assumption about you in regards to your previous post that I assumed you didn't get your hands dirty- which simply isn't true. Let's go back and maybe you can follow your own remarks better so that you can stop being so confused.

 

1. YOU said "professionals are typically covered by employment contracts"; "engagement in the lifestyle adds a dimension of real risk"; "need for genuine discretion

 

-So here we are with your first post on the topic, before I even said anything. What we have here is YOU making plenty of assumptions about the word professional used in one's profile. And whether you agree or not, here we have the so-called elitist attitude that has been mentioned. Why is it elitist? Well, let me attempt to explain it.... again. Because here you imply that if someone doesn't have a particular job, it is not actually a career. Also because if someone does not have a particular career, esp one that doesn't have a moral contract, then they really have no real need for discretion or privacy. These people, since THEY have no need for real discretion, you ASSUME that they couldn't possibly have a moral compass strong enough to keep the discretion and privacy of those that do. Maybe I'm reading too much into your post...? But I don't think so since you clearly state that those that use profession in their profile "prefer to socialize with other professionals who can appreciate the sensitivity of their situation and the need for genuine discretion".

 

2. After all that I said the thing about my husband's career, not to make an assumption about your career, but to illustrate that just because he doesn't have a moral contract doesn't mean he isn't a professional. Even if someone's career doesn't meet the standards of my husband's (ie. he has to have a special certification for his job) doesn't mean they are not professionals. Again, check the actual definition of the word.

 

3. You asked me to give it some thought that you might get your hands dirty at work.

 

4. I didn't feel the need to give that any thought because, as I explained, I didn't make any assumptions about you or your career in the first place.

 

5. You misquote me and have a chuckle about it.

 

So let me clear it up even further. I DID make an assumption about the word professional. I stand by it, and again, I believe that your posts justify that assumption. However, I did NOT make an assumption about you personally in my previous posts. I hesitated to do that because I really don't want this post to turn into something it doesn't need to be, but I feel that after all that has been said, I can only hold my tongue for so long.........

 

You come to this post and instead of adding some food for thought, you get those that have posted previous riled up by calling them bigots and ignorant right out of the gate. Then you go on to say that only your way of thinking can be considered "intellectualism". So if you are getting PMs from members that would rather not turn the post into a flame war- tough titty. It isn't on them, it is on you coming in and personally attacking those that were simply stating their opinions and not intending to attack anyone. Here is my assumption be it right or wrong- no matter what you say about not having your day ruined, you are taking what is being said here as a personal offense and you are replying accordingly. You are not attempting to actually have an intelligent conversation about something that people obviously have differing views about. If you are, then you don't know how to take to people. When you come in calling people stupid right out the gate, you are not saying anything that is going to get them to think about the situation any differently. You are creating an atmosphere where people may respond to you to illustrate their points, but mostly they are just ignoring everything you have to say because you are putting them on the defensive. Not cool. Think yourself more intelligent than all of us if you want; it doesn't affect my life at all. But you know what? That doesn't make you smart, it makes you elitist.

 

Now back to the discretion thing, and I will have said my piece. I am a housewife right now (a nurse in the off-season ). I have one small child that just started pre-k and another child on the way. I don't have a moral contract to be a housewife. In fact, there is no one in my personal or professional life that gives two shits who I have sex with. However, I have a very real need for discretion. Just because I don't have people that would care one way or the other that I am a swinger doesn't mean that I want everyone knowing. And although it might not matter at 5 years old if someone told my daughter I was a swinger, it could be an issue later. I choose to keep my privacy because it is my choice, and if that isn't a real reason for you- then YOU are the one that has a problem with discretion, not me.

 

Thanks for replying.

 

I'm a fairly rational person and enjoy a healthy discussion, particularly about things where people have strong points of view. I have mine, you have yours. It's fine for us to debate and disagree on some points, agree on others, and maybe learn a little along the way.

 

I'd suggest a little breather, ok? Afterwards, if you feel like reviewing my posts in the calm manner in which they were written, and you'd like to continue this discussion, I will be glad to oblige.

 

On the other hand, if you still think I am an elitist warthog from hell who ran over your puppy after stealing your baby's lollipop...

 

Well, I'll just have to find a way to go on living ;-)

 

(Come on, give me a smile :-)

[AndrewandAnn 360]

I'm one of the people who left you negative rep and signed it so you'd know who it was from. I believe my comment was that being argumentative and publicly calling out other members was a dick move. It is. Which (and I'm not being ironic) is half of the reason why I didn't do so publicly. The other half is that there's a reason this place isn't like other forums on the web. Instead of being a sewer filled with trolling, condescension, and ignorance masquerading as clever flame wars, the vibe here is friendly, helpful and - even when members disagree - cordial. Part of what keeps it that way is active but mostly invisible moderators, a positive/negative rep system that acts as a form of peer review and the willingness of almost everyone to eschew the confrontational approach. It's not a system or a venue that takes kindly to an approach that includes public chastisement, something I think most forum members will agree is a good thing, particularly given how unpleasant this thread is in so many spots.

 

I suppose you failed to notice I didn't call you out, either?

 

And, by the way, when you can find an example where I singled out a member and called them some derogatory name, you know, like "dick", I'll... I'll... I'll order you some sandwiches, chips and a drink from Jimmy John's!!

 

So get cracking!

 

My comments have been calm, on-point and entirely germane. And given the number of likes I've received, I don't seem to be alone in that analysis.

 

Have a good evening.

[Chicup 41]

We are a attractive professional, drama free couple, who is HWP, but down to earth, and knows how to have a good time!

 

Which means ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

 

The problem seems to be people like to put real personalities behind very subjective and undefined terms. "Professional" means just about anything. I assume it just means an office job of some kind, but if you owned an auto-body shop, THAT would be a professional too, so its pretty darn useless.

 

Personally I get more of the personality of a couple by how the profile is written than any subjective terms.

[Fundamental Law 2,885]

Labels are interesting things. When the label fits AND represents something of interest, it's wonderful. When what you want isn't labelled, or something you don't want is mislabeled, it's irritating.

 

We use labels for all sorts of reasons--to present ourselves, to filter out others are the most common reasons.

 

Funny thing is, actually meeting people tends to erase inaccurate labels fairly quickly. All that's left is irritation.

 

Personality, especially smiles and a sense of humor, matter.

[sunbuckus 3,567]

I have tried to keep quiet in this thread for a few reasons. One, I like discussion but not when one half of a "discussion" feels like animosity veiled behind the excuse of "intellectualism" and underhanded insults accompanied by an unbecoming tone of voice. Here are the examples and how I, personally, view them. Maybe I'm the only one (and if that's the case, then I apologize because I'm being too sensitive) but I figured maybe you might want to know how some of your comments come across.

 

My pet peeves relate to all the bigotry and ignorance I see in the way people respond to entirely innocuous facts that people mention in their profiles.

 

Underhanded insult to a fellow board member.

 

Well, now we're getting somewhere, aren't we?

 

Your last paragraph says it all.

 

What makes you assume my hands do not get dirty?

 

Give that some thought.

 

Unfriendly tone of voice.

 

I thank you for the post because it initiated an interesting discussion where people with varying points of view have been stimulated into sharing their thoughts and perhaps we've all learned a little something about ourselves and others along the way.

 

In the bolded part, it sounds like you are directing a learning experience for everyone but yourself.

 

Although I cannot say the same for a couple of folks who, lacking the wherewithal and good taste to address me or this issue in public, sent my way some rather unkind private messages.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but is it not good manners, as well as more respectful, to handle possible misconduct privately rather than publicly?

 

In Madison, WI, the word "professional" carries a negative connotation?

 

Madison, a city renown for its university and its rich educational environment and emphasis on higher learning?

 

Yikes.

 

Perhaps the decline of intellectualism isn't being exaggerated after all.

 

Another underhanded insult.

 

And, by the way, when you can find an example where I singled out a member and called them some derogatory name, you know, like "dick", I'll... I'll... I'll order you some sandwiches, chips and a drink from Jimmy John's!!

 

So get cracking!

 

Perhaps you were trying for humor but it fell flat, in my opinion, and instead it came off as impolite.

 

 

Another reason I've tried to stay away is because I dislike confrontation...even though this post may seem very confrontational to you please don't. If you do see it in that light then I'm sorry and you can give me bad reputation for it. I'm just a concerned, little forum member who comes back to this forum everyday because of the general community and its friendly, helpful, and cordial vibe--as mauijanedoe stated. Perhaps you really are unaware of how some of your comments come across even though you find them to be "calm, on-point, and germane." There's a saying: "You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar." It is one of the idioms I try to adhere to in life and online.

 

 

All of that aside, I wanted to point out this quote of yours:

 

And now that there exists a level of awareness that the word "professional" appearing in a profile has legitimate underpinnings, he/she/they have some new choices about how they might respond.

 

Throughout this entire thread, has it occurred to you that perhaps you also have a new choice in how you might respond to using "professional" in your profile? Language is fluid--for one period it might be positive and another it might not be. The whole "red flag" thread can be a teaching tool. Often, we aren't aware of how certain words have "legitimate underpinnings." Usually, when couples find that a certain word or phrase might mean something negative, they delete it from their profile and find a different way of communicating their thoughts.

 

 

To the hardworking moderators and Julie, if I was out of line with this post, please let me know.

[mauijanedoe 1,414]

We are a attractive professional, drama free couple, who is HWP, but down to earth, and knows how to have a good time!

 

Which means ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

 

You forgot the reference to Barbie and Ken....

 

Yeah, all those terms are meaningless commonplaces that have no agreed upon definitions. One in a profile doesn't raise my eyebrows exactly, although I think I start reading a little more closely looking for more evidence that the couple isn't particularly original, but we're probably a niche market. Still, I do wish that more people viewed their profiles as the marketing opportunities they can be and stayed away from standard phrasing that's found everywhere, at the very least so that profile perusing was a more entertaining pursuit.