A polyamory family update

[couplers 4,577]

Hello, this is Petra. There is some news I want to share with the Board. The Background - I have been a member here for about seven years, since shortly after I married David. My ex-fiance, Red has been my boyfriend continuously since before I met David. Our journey has included only a little swinging, mostly me setting David up with my girlfriends, before settling on polyamory about four years ago with one of those girlfriends, Clair. Our foursome includes David, our girlfriend Clair, and me who all live and love together, and Red who lives nearby and is linked only with me. We did eventually open our poly foursome up to swinging with a wonderful couple, Walter and Lora, that had never swung before. We all played except for guy/guy, and as before, Red and Clair. Swinging affected Walter and Lora's relationship to such an extent that they got married. Walter and Lora were regulars with us until they moved to Los Angeles, and now we see them only several times a year. I posted here regularly, although not frequently, until October 2011, when I suddenly stopped, not resuming until this week.

 

The reason is that I had a baby. As hubby and I discussed in the past, my first child would be "pot luck" between him and Red. If the first wasn't David's, the second would be. But there's more to the story. I debated whether I should post this story on the Board, but figured that another data point in life may be useful for others. I'll try to keep it short and relevant, but as Mark Twain said, “I didn't have time to write a short letter, so I wrote a long one instead.”

 

In October of 2011 Clair told me something was wrong, she didn't feel right. She was tremendously upset; she was afraid she was pregnant. We took the morning off from work and got three different brands of pregnancy test kits at the drug store and confirmed that was the case. We were both on extended oral contraceptives, the kind where you don't have a period. I was stunned, but felt joyous. She told me she was sorry and that she do whatever I wanted. Clair thought I would be upset with her having David's baby, especially before me. I told her I was so happy for her and us, we hugged and cried, and did all those girl things, and took the rest of the day off from work. Then at lunch together we told David he was a father. (A certainty since Red and Clair don't have sex with each other, and with Walter and Lora living in LA, there had been no play with them in over 4 months.)

 

Anyway, that made me realize that for many reasons, this would be the best time for me to start to try to have a baby. After talking with hubby, he agreed that given the stability of our situation, he was indeed willing for me to go "pot luck" the first time with him and Red. And so it started, having sex deliberately to get pregnant, a new experience. And with two men! I always felt there was enough of me to share myself with two men in all senses of the word, that I wouldn't leave either of them lacking for anything, sexual or otherwise. Now, however, I felt conflicted that only one of my guys would actually be the father of my child. I did not have a plan on how to go about it, but the dynamics at the time were that Clair and David became closer, which was good since she had been more than just a sex partner for hubby. I let them spend more nights alone together, and as a result Red and I had more sex more often. Another detail that I've already shared on the Board that becomes important here is that Red cums in huge quantities, so much so that when he ejaculates it streams out the sides between his dick and the walls of my vagina. Even the other guys, David and Walter, in the past have watched in awe as it comes gushing out of my or Lora's pussy, even if Red just has the head of dick in there. David on the other hand, for having such a large penis, doesn't dribble out enough to fill a teaspoon. So between the quantity of semen and the frequency of intercourse, my child would be Red's baby.

 

Another observation: in my Catholic high school days our "family education" as it was called, taught us that practicing birth control would ruin the experience of sexual intercourse with our spouse because you would not be "totally open" to giving your all to your spouse. Yeah, right, like having a baby wouldn't ruin everything else in your life. But now that I was intentionally trying to get pregnant (the purpose of sex after all, since I had almost forgotten) there is something to that lesson. Never before did I feel so "taken," so intimate, so fulfilled with men's orgasms, so much like a woman. I became pregnant with Red's child in January 2012, three and a half months after Clair.

 

Clair and I being pregnant at the same time was a blessing for us women, but I can't say the same for the guys, having to put up with two moody, barfing, demanding women, not available for much fun of any type. But they were great to both of us equally. I was, and am, so proud that both men treated both women with such affection and care regardless of whose baby was whose. There are posts on the Swingers Board about sex during pregnancy, but all I can say for both Clair and me is that sometimes we wanted it badly, and sometimes not at all. I had a bond to each of the other three that was unbelievable. From the way hubby treated my crazy situation in the past, I never had any doubts, but this confirmed hubby's love for me. It also was the time that Clair and I became true lovers. Before it was deep friendship and sort of girl sex as an adjunct to being with a man, but now sex between Clair and me became love. Other than that, nothing changed in our relationship; David, Clair and I live in our house as a family while Red lives a short distance away, and he either visits me at home or I would spend time with him at his house. During our pregnancies, Lora visited us twice with Walter (and we all played), and once near the end alone (the guys were happy to play with her).

 

Did you know that the hospital will only let you have one outside support person in the delivery room? We had to make decisions. For Clair's delivery, it was easy - my darling husband would be there to help and witness the birth of his child with my best friend. For me it was more difficult, it was Red's child, but David is my husband after all. After balancing everything (and me getting my way) I decided that Red was too squeamish, so I chose Clair to be with me during delivery. Clair had her son in July 2012, we call him "Junior." I had my daughter in November 2012, we call her "Petunia" after the nick name my sister gave me. (I hated that name, but it motivated me and filled me with piss and vinegar.) But there is a twist to the story - despite all my certainty, my daughter is David's child too. It was pretty obvious looking at her, but we did the paternity test as well. You would think that Red would have been terribly disappointed, but not at all, not one little bit. He loves both those children as though they are his own (Red said to me, "That child came out of your body, Pet, that's all I need.") David didn't check with me first, but he told Red that next one will be his; I'm glad he did.

 

After the children were born, Clair and I were even more glad we did this together. We all take care of both children, and Clair and I were able to suckle both infants, and share all of the stuff you need for babies. We put a bed in the babies' room so one of us mothers can sleep there when needed. Clair was able to make up for my shortfall of milk. Being small breasted, it was also an advantage to be able to start attempting to breastfeed Junior to get things going before I delivered Petunia. I don't know if you think it's intimate or sexy, but as part of our love-making during that time, Clair and I have gotten into bed held one another and drank from each other. I almost hate to say it, but I've been truthful with David, that if I had only one of them, it would be Clair. But mostly it's been diapers (breast milk poop isn't bad at all, formula poop stinks, and baby food poop is nasty), cribs, baby buggies, car seats, doctors appointments, and lots and lots of satisfaction.

 

The big, BIG downside to this whole thing is my family. Actually, just my parents. Really, just my father. He is a Godly man and was pissed when I was engaged to Red and started living with him. (I told Dad I was getting married, and I did, I just ended up marrying David instead.) Mom was always worried that David would leave me because Red was always around and worried that David would find out that Red and I "had been sexual" and punch him or something. They couldn't imagine. It was also difficult for my parents to understand how I could have my friend Clair living with hubby and me, staying there even when I was out of town (they offered to let her stay with them). After I became pregnant, I visited my folks, told them the entire truth (including my misconception that I was having Red's baby), and Dad threw me out before I finished. Mom has warmed up to the grandchildren, Dad's still pissed.

 

Well finally, we have toddlers now, both of us women have gotten back into some semblance of being in shape, had IUDs put in while we were nursing and have something of normal life again. We both hate having periods, and since we have ended breast feeding we've both gone back on oral contraceptives that have shut those down. One thing that reassured both Clair and I is that Walter and Lora still find us sexually desirable and still play with us on occasion, so that is a big ego boost. All four of us are glad that we are in this poly situation because it is easier to raise the kids and makes it possible to be, at least a little, in The Lifestyle. Writing this while on a business trip far, far from home, I sleep well at night knowing that there are other three parents to take care of my babies, and that Clair and hubby have each other's arms at night. When I'm tired and overwhelmed, I hallucinate that Junior and Petunia are both my children and Red is Petunia's father. Sometimes Clair and I will be sitting on the couch holding our babies and just start crying uncontrollably and hug each other.

 

Oh, and if you look at my profile, you will notice I turned thirty not long ago.

[sunbuckus 3,567]

Petra, this was such a lovely update! Thank you so much for sharing it with us on the forum and to allow present and future members to see an example of a poly situation with a dab of swinging. I am so glad that your poly triad with an attached male (would this be a zig-zag?) are doing fantastic! I do hope you continue to update us on the progression of your family in the future!

 

(And congratulations to you and Clair on the little ones!)

[funcoupledayton 2,708]

I'm so happy to see your update! I wondered how you were doing, and I'm glad to see all is well and your family has grown. I'm sorry about your father. Hopefully he will come around with time.

[couplers 4,577]

I'm sorry about your father. Hopefully he will come around with time.

 

I am hoping so as well, especially for our children's sake. But Dad is the type of guy that will do things against his own interests just on principle, or more accurately, as a matter of spite, to prove that he is steadfast (but actually stubborn). On the other hand, as we were growing up he was a kind, generous and gentle father to us. When I went to tell my parents about the pregnancies, he held it together as I first told him that Clair was pregnant with hubby's baby and that it was all OK with me. He threw me out, however, when I (mistakenly) said I was carrying Red's child, although it turned out to be hubby's. I sense it was not so bad that my husband was screwing another woman and got her pregnant, but the idea that I have another sexual partner (and that my husband allows it) was more than he could wrap his mind around. Clearly it is sexism as well.

 

My mother is the go-between now. Hopefully she will help us reconcile. Mom and I have discussed sex, but never much about broader issues of sexuality. From the little she has said, ideas beyond the plain vanilla life aren't unknown to my parents, you just didn't go there.

[bbarnsworth 2,636]

Clearly it is sexism as well.

 

I wouldn't be sure about that.

 

Being a father of daughters, I can say with accumulated wisdom that the closeness I feel as a father to my daughters is very strong. I would do anything to defend them, save them from anything. I'm going to guess, but I think there's a good likelihood this is spot on; your father feels the same way, even if he hasn't expressed it. Now, another element of this; given his background, the idea that a woman would have two male sexual partners, much less a female partner too, and everyone being in the know, happy and content with all of it...he probably would instantly conclude that such a person is bankrupt in every emotional and spiritual sense of the word. So, whereas your dad might work very hard to help you avoid _beginning_ to go down a road that would lead to you being in such a circumstance, now he is faced with a different situation. You're already way, way down that road to the point that to him you've entered into the worst nightmare situation he can imagine. His little girl, whom he cradled in his arms when you were a baby, is now radically different than every idea he has had of you or for you.

 

I don't think this is sexism. This is brain going BANG with an overwhelming enormity of reality.

 

I know you had to tell your father. This was unavoidable. I don't know there was any way to ease him into the idea so it wasn't so overwhelming.

 

Regardless, thank you so much for the update!!! I've often wondered what was happening in your life! I'm so happy for you for much of this, but sad for the portion regarding your parents. How are David's parents with all of this?

[sunbuckus 3,567]

I wouldn't be sure about that.

 

Being a father of daughters, I can say with accumulated wisdom that the closeness I feel as a father to my daughters is very strong. I would do anything to defend them, save them from anything. I'm going to guess, but I think there's a good likelihood this is spot on; your father feels the same way, even if he hasn't expressed it. Now, another element of this; given his background, the idea that a woman would have two male sexual partners, much less a female partner too, and everyone being in the know, happy and content with all of it...he probably would instantly conclude that such a person is bankrupt in every emotional and spiritual sense of the word. So, whereas your dad might work very hard to help you avoid _beginning_ to go down a road that would lead to you being in such a circumstance, now he is faced with a different situation. You're already way, way down that road to the point that to him you've entered into the worst nightmare situation he can imagine. His little girl, whom he cradled in his arms when you were a baby, is now radically different than every idea he has had of you or for you.

 

I don't think this is sexism. This is brain going BANG with an overwhelming enormity of reality.

 

 

bbarnsworth, I usually agree and love your posts but I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you on this one. When a person has pre-conceived notions of how a person should be or should live their lives, it's not really beneficial to that person or the people that they are judging. And I think this is even more damaging when a parent does this to their child. I'm not saying that they shouldn't cover basic manners when the child is younger but after a point, you--as a parent--have to learn to let go and allow the child(ren) to explore the world and life in the way that they choose to do it. Will some do it in a destructive, damaging way? Yes, and it can be disappointing but after a certain age, there isn't anything you can or should do. All you can do is show that you still love them and support them when they need help. If you continue to berate, openly judge, and express your displeasure, you are creating a gap between you and the other person...and often, once that gap is created it will begin to grow and grow until it reaches a point when nothing can help bridge it and repair the relationship.

 

Being the mother of both girls and a boy, I try to keep myself from creating certain expectations for them in the future. Do I want them happy? Absolutely. But if they decide to have alternative lifestyles that are not the "norm" for general society, I will still love them. My relationship with them is far greater to me to keep intact than to act in such a way to jeopardize it. I would hope that I have the good sense to know when to change from a "teaching parent" to a "keeping your mouth shut until you're directly asked for advice parent".

 

From my point of view, the father is acting selfishly instead of thinking how this is affecting his adult child and their relationship (and the subsequent relationship between him and the grandchildren). When a parent does this, they are being a bad parent--plain and simple.

[couplers 4,577]

See my thoughts below. Please do not think that I have taken offense with anything either of you have said, I know you are exploring my father's point of view, and this is my response to him (which he never wants to hear):

 

...the idea that a woman would have two male sexual partners, much less a female partner too...

You forgot to add that I'm pimping out my husband too. Dad didn't forget.

 

You're already way, way down that road to the point that to him you've entered into the worst nightmare situation he can imagine. His little girl, whom he cradled in his arms when you were a baby, is now radically different than every idea he has had of you or for you.... How are David's parents with all of this?

At one time I was an infant, I was a child, I was pubescent but not emotionally mature; at one time I needed my parents' protection. But now I am thirty years old and I expect my father to not be so unrealistic that he doesn't see me as an adult woman that has a sex life, a sex life that I freely chose and in which I continue to find joy and fulfillment. It is sexism, because if I were a stupid little fool with no achievements to my name, even half drunk all the time, it would be OK to him so long as I were married and faithful, bearing children for the Lord.

 

David's mom is overjoyed that she now has two grandchildren after hoping for so long. David's brothers and sisters have thus far decided not to have any children. She doesn't understand how we came to this, but accepts it as something we are all happy with. Ditto Clair's parents. David's father passed away about five years ago. Red isn't close to his parents, but they know he is fawning over his "friends' " children.

 

 

 

... you--as a parent--have to learn to let go and allow the child(ren) to explore the world and life in the way that they choose to do it. Will some do it in a destructive, damaging way?

I has always been a strong-willed person with some intelligence who is in control of myself and my surroundings: never used drugs, hardly drink at all, don't gamble, don't smoke, and no guy or girl has ever taken advantage of me. So if I have chosen an unconventional sex life and an unusual way to fertilize my eggs, it's not because something bad has happened to me, it's because that is what I want.

[SoFlaCouple 188]

When a parent does this, they are being a bad parent--plain and simple.

 

We can't change our parents, we can only love them for what they are.

 

Unfortunately, as older parents (think 60's) get older (think 70's and 80's) their world gets narrower and narrower. Some who always had flexible views may become a little less flexible. Those who had narrow views become even more narrow.

 

While becoming estranged with a parent is bad, I think becoming estranged with a child is worse, and I am sure your father hurts for not having a relationship with you now. I am not defending your dad or saying what he did is ok. But he is what he is. At his age and worldview, change is going to be very difficult. Don't expect him to change, he may never come to fully accept your situation. But if you take the high road, love him unconditionally (as hard as it may be sometimes), and accept that he is who he is, hopefully his love for you will enable him to reestablish his relationship with you.

 

Good luck.

[couplers 4,577]

We can't change our parents, we can only love them for what they are.

You are absolutely correct. As I said my father was always kind, generous and loving to us, and I still love him dearly. I am willing to meet him on just about any terms he wants, for instance, just me and the children, or just me and my child alone, or just my mom and my child. But he'll have none of that. He wants me to forswear Red, and for hubby and I to throw Clair out. He wants to control with whom I have a relationship. I am willing to do just about anything, but what he wants is impossible.

 

I didn't do it just for him, but I've been a good girl and a source of pride for him in every way, in my conduct and achievements. Why does he demand this as well?

[bbarnsworth 2,636]

At one time I was an infant, I was a child, I was pubescent but not emotionally mature; at one time I needed my parents' protection. But now I am thirty years old and I expect my father to not be so unrealistic that he doesn't see me as an adult woman that has a sex life, a sex life that I freely chose and in which I continue to find joy and fulfillment. It is sexism, because if I were a stupid little fool with no achievements to my name, even half drunk all the time, it would be OK if I were married and faithful, bearing children for the Lord.

 

I'm quoting you but also responding to Sunbuckus above. I don't know if I've conveyed my thoughts well on this. I'm not looking for agreement, or trying to explain in a different way such that either of you will get what I'm saying. I do want to add on a couple of things...

 

When a child becomes an adult, they are an adult to be sure. Parents recognize this. They know the child will eventually leave home, have a life of their own. A dad recognizes he will someday not be the man in his little girl's life. But in none of this is it the case that a child stops being your baby. I will go to my deathbed thinking of my children as my babies. That's not to say in any...any...respect that I will not honor and respect their choices as adults.

 

The other thing I wanted to add on; most of us here are trying to intellectually construct/deconstruct what your father thinks and is doing/has done. Logic and emotion do not speak the same language. Your father's reaction is certainly wrapped up in emotions. Such emotions may seem irrational, unbelievable, and without merit. Doesn't matter. The emotions are still being felt, logic be damned.

[couplers 4,577]

You are absolutely correct. As I said my father was always kind, generous and loving to us, and I still love him dearly. I am willing to meet him on just about any terms he wants, for instance, just me and the children, or just me and my child alone, or just my mom and my child. But he'll have none of that. He wants me to forswear Red, and for hubby and I to throw Clair out. He wants to control with whom I have a relationship. I am willing to do just about anything, but what he wants is impossible.

 

I didn't do it just for him, but I've been a good girl and a source of pride for him in every way, in my conduct and achievements. Why does he demand this as well?

 

 

 

P.S. Writing this made me mad. I decided that Dad cannot reject Junior (Clair and hubby's child) and just see Petunia (my baby), if he rejects Junior or treats him differently, then he won't get to see Petunia. In my mind they are both my children; sometimes I cry when I look at Junior and see David in him. My first responsibility is toward my children, not Dad's feelings.

[sunbuckus 3,567]

Please do not think that I have taken offense with anything either of you have said, I know you are exploring my father's point of view, and this is my response to him (which he never wants to hear).

 

I realized too late that what I may have said may have been too harsh and for that, I would like to apologize. You are already going through so much anguish already and the fact that I may have piled more on is unacceptable. I'm so sorry if I wrote anything that upset you.

 

I has always been a strong-willed person with some intelligence who is in control of myself and my surroundings: never used drugs, hardly drink at all, don't gamble, don't smoke, and no guy or girl has ever taken advantage of me. So if I have chosen an unconventional sex life and an unusual way to fertilize my eggs, it's not because something bad has happened to me, it's because that is what I want.

 

I wanted to clear the air because I think you may have taken my words to personally mean you. I was not. When I was writing, I was thinking more along the lines of children who decide to act out by being violent, doing drugs, running away, or doing personal harm to themselves. I was in no way even thinking about how your sex life was "destructive or damaging."

 

We can't change our parents, we can only love them for what they are.

 

Unfortunately, as older parents (think 60's) get older (think 70's and 80's) their world gets narrower and narrower. Some who always had flexible views may become a little less flexible. Those who had narrow views become even more narrow.

 

While becoming estranged with a parent is bad, I think becoming estranged with a child is worse, and I am sure your father hurts for not having a relationship with you now. I am not defending your dad or saying what he did is ok. But he is what he is. At his age and worldview, change is going to be very difficult. Don't expect him to change, he may never come to fully accept your situation. But if you take the high road, love him unconditionally (as hard as it may be sometimes), and accept that he is who he is, hopefully his love for you will enable him to reestablish his relationship with you.

 

 

I agree that the best route is to take the high road but I disagree that the older someone gets, the less they can change. I'd like to think that no matter how old we get, we are always able to learn and change. I think the excuse "not being able to change" doesn't just apply to older folks but to anyone who has that mindset. Younger people can have that mindset as well...and you know what it does? It alienates them from those around them. Maybe they don't want to learn anything new, maybe they think there's nothing left to learn...I don't know what exactly is involved with that line of thinking. But I do know that it pushes people away.

 

P.S. Writing this made me mad. I decided that Dad cannot reject Junior (Clair and hubby's child) and just see Petunia (my baby), if he rejects Junior or treats him differently, then he won't get to see Petunia. In my mind they are both my children; sometimes I cry when I look at Junior and see David in him. My first responsibility is toward my children, not Dad's feelings.

 

I'm so, so, so sorry that you find yourself in this situation and I do wish I could give you a hug. I hope that as the children get older that they aren't able to see the situation with their grandfather as it really is because that can create a sense of resentment toward him. Knowing that a grandparent has been unfairly unkind to their parents will forever skew how they view that grandparent, even if that grandparent comes around in the future.

[Gordo 618]

Wow just wow! I remember reading your posts years ago and wondering how such a different lifestyle could evolve. Kudos for the group of you for making it work and in such a loving fashion. Also congrats on the birth of your child and your thirtieth birthday.

 

As for your dad I tend to agree with barnsworth that his version of reality has just been exploded and he just can't cope with it based on his own upbringing and beliefs. To a certain extent I can understand him as we have almost all been raised with a pretty narrow idea of what we should be doing in life.

 

But that doesn't make him right.

 

Quite to the contrary he needs to accept your choices, your children, your lovers and your spouse fully, otherwise keep him at an arms distance. Loving but leave us alone until you can accept. Children pick up on attitudes quite easily and as they get older you don't want them to feel grandpa's hostility toward your other family members he doesn't approve of.

 

Good luck!

[couplers 4,577]

I realized too late that what I may have said may have been too harsh and for that, I would like to apologize.

 

No need for any apology! Absolutely nothing anyone has said offended me in the least. I truly appreciate the comments here and the frank nature in which they are given. My responses may be strong, but it is the topic, and has nothing to do with anyone personally. I take your comments, especially the ones that may disagree with me or what I have done, as genuine concern on your part. I believe in the adage that in order to be right, one must be willing to reevaluate and change.

 

 

I can understand the issues with which my father is dealing, and how they collide with his values. I appreciate how this has turned his world upside down, and he can condemn me for it, no problem, it is contrary to everything he believes in, just don't take it out on the children. What I expected, and would prefer from him, is that we see each other regularly and every time he quietly tells me that I am a whore and going to hell. Fine, then we get on to playing with the grandchildren. The good side of all of this is that my mom now visits frequently. It used to be before the children that we (who had much less free time than the retired folks) always had to visit their house. And actually seeing us all together and not hiding anything, I think she understands.

[bbarnsworth 2,636]

My first responsibility is toward my children, not Dad's feelings.

 

Absolutely spot on. If a parent can not accept their adult child making decisions they do not like...too bad for them. This applies even more so when there are grandchildren involved.

 

Children pick up on attitudes quite easily and as they get older you don't want them to feel grandpa's hostility toward your other family members he doesn't approve of.!

 

Excellent point!