Update on our poly family

[couplers 4,568]

Hi this is Petra, usually the happy face of polyamory and upbeat on poly life, and up to this point everything had been pretty great. Now, however, I am seeking advice and solace from my colleagues on the Swingers Board, and relying on the fact that no one else in my family bothers to visit and read here. I acknowledge that my situation is of my own making and I am dealing with the consequences of my own arrogance.

 

No one wants to hear all the details of someone else's drama, so as short as possible. For those unfamiliar with us, a summary in a couple of sentences: Our poly family consists of my boyfriend Red, who predates my husband and lives a short distance away, and my husband David and our girlfriend Clair with whom we share a home and two children, both hubby's. Red and Clair are not sexually intimate. We swing on occasion exclusively with another married couple Walter and Lora.

 

Lora and David (my husband) were a couple before I met David, or Lora met Walter. I was the one that instigated the initial "re-acquaintance" of Lora and hubby because she is so attractive, I wanted to get to know her, know why they got together then split, see her naked, spend time with her. In due course all four of us (Red, Clair, hubby and I) struck up our full swinging relationship with Lora and Walter before they were married, while they still lived here in Massachusetts. After they moved to California two years ago, we still occasionally got together, sometimes all six of us, but usually just one of us with one of them. From the beginning there seemed to be something between Lora and David that made me feel insecure, and it persisted even after Lora married Walter. In my eyes, she is better than me in every way, and Lora and my husband seem so perfect together. I mean, I've seen my husband fuck a handful or so of other women and even love another woman, our girlfriend Clair, who has his child, so what's the big deal? What's driving me crazy is that a few months ago my husband, David, and Lora went on an "adventure" together, hiking for like three weeks in the Atlas mountains in Morocco. (With Fez and Marrakesh thrown in on the ends. More like a honeymoon than a hike.) On top of that, Lora had told us that Walter and Lora are moving back to Boston from California, but it turns out only Lora moved back, and that she and Walter split. So of course Lora spends a lot of time with us now.

 

I know everyone says "communicate," but I can't talk to hubby about this. He has never denied me anything or doubted me, so how can I say anything, regardless of what his feelings are for Lora? The Morocco trip was no surprise, and if I told him their adventure bothered me he would have called it off, for me, not a single protest. "Anything you want Pet." He says it all the time. He would give up seeing Lora if I asked, but how could I? David never protests when I go off alone with Red (or Clair, if that counts) for an escapade, or that the plan is for my next child to be Red's. I am too proud to admit to Clair or Red or David that I am weak, failing my poly principles. Especially hubby since he has never failed them with me. I owe David too much to deny him anything, especially since I have no doubt that he still loves me. But that bitch is just too perfect for me, and she seems more attractive, getting even better than me, and more perfect as time goes on.

 

Please, anyone, do you have some magic words? I'm going crazy.

[Lionheart72 2,189]

No magic words, but maybe an uncomfortable idea...

 

You are being dishonest with your husband, with Clair and Red, and with Lora. You are allowing them to believe, by your silence, that you are OK with the situation when you are not. David has never denied you anything because (I sincerely hope) he has never felt any significant discomfort with your actions. If he had been uncomfortable, don't you think he would have spoken? Doesn't he deserve the same honesty from you?

 

For a poly group to work, everyone must be honest and open with their feelings. It doesn't matter if your feelings are "right" or "wrong", they are your feelings. They will influence the way you act toward your partners. if you love them, you owe them honesty.

 

Sit them down and tell them, openly and honestly, what you feel. Tell David that you want him to be happy, that you would like him to be able to be with Lora but that you aren't comfortable with it because she makes you feel insecure. Tell him how you have struggled with this realization. Be honest... as honest with the people you love as you have been just now with strangers on the internet. I know it's hard, believe me I do... but it will be better in the long run.

[funcoupledayton 2,708]

I don't have any magic words, I'm sorry you are going through this. I think it would be a good idea to talk to David and tell him how you are feeling. Own that it's not entirely rational, but how you feel. Let him reassure you and keep your feelings in mind. You have a child together and your relationship needs to be the best it can be for that child.

[Mochacino 188]

Not poly here. But my first thought is if she was so perfect he wouldn't have married and committed to you all these years right? Hope you are able to communicate and get your focus back. Big Hugs!

[Glida 250]

I think it would more devastating for you to keep this quiet that to bring it out into the open. And why are everybody elses feelings more important than yours?

we feel what we feel right? sometimes theres no logical reason for it, it is what it is.

 

She makes you insecure and you're not comfortable with her in your relationship and thats OK.

 

The good people of this forum repeatedly say that at the end of the day its all about the connection between husband and wife. You and David are your primary concern. Tell the truth and stand behind what you believe!

[81lizard69 470]

Wow a long trip to another country with out me... In any relationship that would cause strain just by itself. I think things need to be fair and that does not feel fair to me. Then with Lora being around more I can understand your hurt feelings. Hell I am not comfortable with the three week trip. I am not poly, but do understand your feelings.

 

How does a person talk to another when they feel like they are getting squeezed out of a relationship? Asking the question and hoping not to hear the answer you want to hear expecting the worst is hard..... Talk to David and ask him how he feels about Lora. Tell him you are feeling a resentment about their relationship but you can not put your finger on what you are feeling.

 

I would stop and not demonize Lora. She is not making you feel anything.

 

Just to let you know some tools I use in life are thus.

 

I ask myself when in in that crazy place what am I afraid of? How am I trying to manage that fear. Is the way I am trying to manage that fear working? Then ask yourself how do you want to be.. How do you want the relationship between you, David and Lora to be. What is the ideal best situation possible for you.. First.. then the group. I find that if I can ground myself in love and come from the place of love instead of fear I am acting pro creatively.. other than coming from a place of fear and making decisions out of fear. For me if I make a decision because I am fearful I tend to settle for the lessor of two evils instead of getting the best for me.. Does that makes sense to you?

 

This is advice works for me. I hope you can find something from this that works for you.

[GoldCoCouple 4,063]

There is no such thing as TOO much communication, only NOT ENOUGH communication. By not talking to David you are withholding things, emotions, truths from him (or, as we call it lying by omission). As already said, by not saying anything, you are giving the perception that you don't have any problem with what is going on. Then when it finally does explode into the light (these things never just creep out), he will have never seen it coming (and that only makes it harder for him to understand). Talk to him and do it SOON so that you all can start working on this TOGETHER.

 

At the same time, he previously dated her but they broke up, then he married YOU, he loves YOU...what is it that is making you feel so inadequate about yourself? What can you do to try and work on this?

 

Polyamory and swinging are (IOHO) still TEAM sports (kind of hard to do either alone...lol). You play as a team and can only win as a team. You are not alone, your partners (and all of us for that matter) are all here to help. Good luck and keep us up to date with what is going on.

[bbarnsworth 2,636]

Everyone's said it before me, but add my voice too; this must be discussed. Not doing so will guarantee that it will fester, and as it does it will get worse. The only way to make this better is to communicate. Honesty can be seriously painful. Not being honest is always 10x more painful.

[couplers 4,568]

I am sorry for having thrown a fit here with my post, and I appreciate everyone that took the time to read it, and especially those that responded. I realize that this is MY problem, that no one else is to blame. First, no one has done anything deceptive, every action and plan was made known to me well in advance. Second, not only did I not object to anything between hubby and Lora, in the spirit of true poly, I genuinely encouraged it (it always seemed like a good idea at the time). Third, I do not blame Lora for anything. She has always been nice to me, more than that she has been a friend - good and generous toward me and the children. And quite frankly, it was I who was the one first infatuated with her fit brown body in the locker room, enchanted by the fact that she was an ex-girlfriend of hubby's, and lured her into reestablishing a sexual relationship with David. It is my failing that that I am jealous of her physical superiority, intellectual and professional accomplishments as well as her attraction to David. Funny, because for quite a while I was flattered that she found my husband attractive; I need to get back to that place.

 

One small example of how fucked up my mind is: Lora, hubby and I were in a small town grocery store after hiking with some friends. Those two were grabbing a few things together while I was looking at something else. They went up to pay for their purchases, hubby gave the cashier the money and the cashier gave the change TO LORA. A shock went through me. Is it that obvious? It was like, "See, I'm not the only one that recognizes it." You don't give the change to another person unless there is a possessory interest involved. By taking that $2.67 it was like she had just stolen my husband.

 

Part of it too is that she divorced Walter and moved back to Boston. In reality she is just rebounding and certainly has sexual needs (she and Red enjoy sex with one another, but that isn't an issue). Having thought it through, I have decided to take the advice I have given other young people at work - if you're afraid of being left out then make yourself indispensable. So that is what I have been doing (without being pushy), both for hubby as well as Lora, both in and out of the bedroom. I go out of my way to do Lora's laundry, include her in our meals, make her feel welcome in our home. I want to be part of the package of what she likes about being with David. And while more care is needed for me not to be pushy, I offer to be part of their sexual pleasure - be the wife who is willing to start the excitement, then either leave them or stay as an ancillary (I'm proud that Lora is kind of hooked on me licking her from underneath while hubby does her doggie). If I'm not explicitly encouraged to stay when they start to copulate, I make it clear that I will be available to come back if summoned to satisfy either of their unmet needs. I do admit, it is wonderful when David kisses me and says, "I love you," while inside Lora. In that case I can leave them to their pleasure and feel completely at peace.

 

I'm working on it. I'll get there.

[bbarnsworth 2,636]

I am jealous of her physical superiority

 

This is incredibly subjective. YOU think she's "physically superior" (whatever the heck that is) but are you the final arbiter of that? Nobody is. She is. You are. That's all that counts in this calculation. Your husband finds both of you attractive, and very obviously so. Need it matter any more than that? With all respect, and I mean that, women get seriously wrapped up sometimes in society's heavily pushed idea of 'western beauty'. The closer you look to the cover of Cosmopolitan, the more superior you are. It's a false god, a lie, treachery, and insanely harmful to women young and old alike. YOU are better than that. From your posts here, knowing who you are and what kind of person you are in as much as a person can through eConversation, I would date you in a heartbeat if I could. Get over yourself! You're amazing

 

By taking that $2.67 it was like she had just stolen my husband.

 

Don't take this as negative criticism. Please. Understand; the cashier did nothing. I know it hurts, but s/he did nothing. It was entirely your reaction that created the issue. Plenty of people mistake relationships. I have a long term friend who I used to date many, many years ago. Whenever I'm with her and it's just the two of us, people automatically assume we're married. People do that whenever there's two people of opposite sex who are adults and doing something together. It's how our society behaves.

 

I do admit, it is wonderful when David kisses me and says, "I love you," while inside Lora.

 

DING DING DING DAVID AND PETRA FOR THE WIN! This is _wonderful_!!!

 

I'm working on it. I'll get there.

 

I frequently say that logic and emotion have nothing to do with each other, don't speak the same language, and can't convince the other of anything...yet they exist in the same person. Logically, you know David loves you dearly, would never leave you, and is absolutely devoted to you. Emotionally you're going nuts trying to calm fears.

 

You know, when you communicate your deepest fears to a person you love, you gain a greater closeness with that person. You should make it clear you're not expecting or wanting David to back off from Lora or vice versa. I would communicate that you're having a weak moment and need love and support. David proved you do by your reaction to his kissing you and telling you he loves you while he was having sex with Lora.

[Lionheart72 2,189]

I have decided to take the advice I have given other young people at work - if you're afraid of being left out then make yourself indispensable.

 

Why are you afraid to tell your husband how you feel? Why are you insisting on playing games?

 

You say no one is being dishonest, but I return to my original statement: You are being dishonest, by not telling them what you really feel.

[intuition897 2,179]

Mr. intuition and I haven't delved into poly relationships yet because we don't feel we have the energy to work on more relationships than the one we have right now. But we understand it. I'm just going to drop my 2 cents here for what it's worth.

 

I found the best results always came from approaching Mr. intuition in a spirit of...I can't really define it. If it was a physical posture, it would be with an openness, palms out and up, with a direct gaze, with dignity but humility and complete honesty, approaching slowly, entreating him to meet me halfway with the problem I have. I am asking him to help me to solve my problem, and here it is. It's important that we both recognize our ownership of our part of the problem, and not place blame. If we feel like placing blame, we own up to that and acknowledge that those feelings are there, but that they are a symptom, not the problem itself. The "real" problem is that those feelings exist, and we are asking for help from one another to make those unwanted feelings go away. Leaving things unsaid never worked for us. So, as uncomfortable as it is to sometimes discuss these feelings, we share them...apologizing as we go for making the other uncomfortable with them, too. But hey! that's marriage. THAT is what we signed on for as one another's spouse. That's the vow. I never vowed to be perfect or the be best at everything. I never vowed to always say the right thing. I never vowed to never hurt him. Because I'm human, I'm flawed, and like everyone else, I fuck up more often than I'd like to. Sometimes he gets hurt in the process, and vice versa.

 

What I vowed to do was to keep working on being the best I can be, to never hurt him on purpose, and to always be there to meet him in that sacred space where we meet one another half way and to not cringe away or say, "It's too much." when asked to share the burden of discomfort that comes from having to deal with our own shittiness. If he has to feel it, I promised to be there with him to share that and help him find a way out of it. And I trust that he's going to do the same for me, and so I feel safe walking into that half-way place and expecting him to be there for me. I expect that same openness and honesty from him. If he's got a problem, I want to know about it. I know he's not perfect either, and I pre-forgive him for anything he does that hurts me, because I know he didn't do it on purpose.

 

Sex has nothing to do with it. Physical perfection, career accomplishments, intellectual pursuits, all that stuff...have nothing to do with what we vowed. Those are personal things that we work on for ourselves, for our own satisfaction. They're the sandcastles we build. It's not important that they're perfect, but it is important that we're actively working on what's important to us, because that's us working on ourselves and working toward the life we want for ourselves. If I'm getting lazy/complacent, I expect him to kick my ass and tell me to get back to working on myself, because it's good for me. Not because he needs the sandcastle to be perfect. (God, I love that man.)

 

Anyway, this is my long-winded view of how to solve problems. In your case, if it was me, I would approach my husband saying first that I have an uncomfortable problem and there are thoughts and feelings that I have about his relationship with Lora that I don't want to have. He knows that I really want for his happiness, right? This is why it's so hard to bring this to him: I don't want him to stop his happiness for the sake of my discomfort. (At this point he should be acknowledging my courage in bringing this to him, thanking me for trusting him to be able to handle it.) I want him to help me find a way to be comfortable with it. These are my emotional needs (fill in the blank here with what you need to feel safe, loved, secure and free in your relationship with him). Are any of these needs compromised by your relationship with Lora? And be specific, please, as to how they're not. I need your support right now, and I need to know that we're still okay. Essentially you're asking: "I feel like you prefer her over me, and I'm ashamed of thinking this way. Is it true? Are we okay? What is it that you love about me/makes me special to you/would make me feel secure about my place in your heart?"

[christnthms 326]

I'm gonna chime in on a very separate channel here... A poly relationship sort of assumes full disclosure and consent from all parties. In this relationship, there are two parties that cannot be fully aware and consenting: the kids.

 

First and last, and every step between, they are they only parties here that have no say.

 

You (yes, the father(s) as well but you don't get to control them) are responsible for the kids' safety and emotional health.

 

Sometimes we end up in situations where what we want is not in the kids' best interest. Buck up. You're the adult. Yes, your happiness matters but not at the expense of their health or emotional safety.

 

ANYTHING that threatens that should be tossed out.

 

Healthy sexual relationships (even unconventional ones) are not a threat.

 

Insecurity, jealousy, resentments, fear, distrust... THESE things are the threat. THESE things need to be sought out and removed any way possible.

[81lizard69 470]

Hey. I have had some lovers in the swing community that were out of my league. Hell my wife is out of my league and I will say that I married up.. I have lots of good qualities and know my limitations. I am ok with it. We swing with some guys that are bigger, faster, smarter than me. If I Listen to those voices in my head I can go crazy.

 

Watch that inner dialogue dear. It will lie to you.. tell you things that are not true and ruin your day.

[couplers 4,568]

Things are better. Yesterday's weather was beautiful and well all seven of us managed to get out on the bike trail. With five bikes, and two pulling kiddy trailers, we had to break into pairs and David seemed to just ride with me the whole time. Maybe it was just de-stressing from everything else in the week, but it actually felt good to have Lora along. I actually do like being around her, I like the relationship she has with Clair and Red. Lora pulls it together by dint of her personality and strength.

[GoldCoCouple 4,063]

Go to them, either together or separately, and say 'I have a problem that I would like you to help me with...' and go from there. If they love you (and everything seems to indicate that they do) they will bend over backwards to help make you more comfortable. Love, trust, communicate! Don't let your own personal demons damage something that can be repaired.

[couplers 4,568]

bbarnsworth said:

Quote Originally Posted by couplers

I am jealous of her physical superiority Unquote

 

This is incredibly subjective. YOU think she's "physically superior" (whatever the heck that is) but are you the final arbiter of that?...

 

I accept all that you have to say, but this seems a little patronizing. I am here, you are not; I see Lora and can compare her to me, you can't. A very few examples (don't think that I haven't composed a list of hundreds): I am fit, very fit, but Lora is fitter. She has objectively has more muscle than me and is more powerful. That girl has the bubble butt of a black women, but the lucky few of us that have been allowed to put their hands on it feel no fat, just muscle. She is more muscular than me all over, but is simultaneously soft whereas I'm sinewy. I am bi, but find myself attracted to her for her human form and beauty than strictly as a girl. I am a good runner, but Lora beats me in all but the longest races. At the same time Lora is also more feminine than me (as is Clair); if there was a poll about who could conceivably be in FHM or Maxim, there may be some competition between Clair and Lora, but I would not be in the running. I always saw myself as giving David, my wonderful husband, the companionship that he wants on his physical, outdoor adventures. Other women may be better to look at (and even to feel up), but I'm was the only one that could keep up with him all day and sleep in a tent with him at night - until Lora. The comparison list goes on and on (music, theater, science/tech, pursuits): some are things that David cares about, others are things that only I care about. Some I win, some Lora does, but I know where things stand. Although as I said, them having sex doesn't bother me, in some ways sex too does matter. Lora has tits you can actually play with, mine you don't quite get a mouthful; I had David's baby - one point for me; but Lora hasn't had any child pass through her "birth canal;" is her pussy tighter than mine? In those moments when David is enjoying one of us, I wonder, does she feel the same as me? Does he feel the same to both of us?

 

 

bbarnsworth said:

Quote Originally Posted by couplers

By taking that $2.67 it was like she had just stolen my husband. Unquote

 

Understand; the cashier did nothing.

 

I know, I started the sentence with an "example of how fucked up my mind is." Nobody's problem but my own.

 

I appreciate your comments; valuable advice is never watered down.

[couplers 4,568]

Since this is a sex topic board I owe you at least a little update in that regard.

 

The sex between Lora and David doesn't bother me, I actually like watching them for a number of reasons. They both have beautiful bodies, the contrast between hubby's white-man skin and her rich blackness is stunning. Twenty-three hours a day, however, I am not aware that Lora is black, but when David is on top of her and her limbs are around his trunk (or his dick in her mouth or his hands on her breasts) the image is stunning. There was a nice contrast between Walter and Clair, and Walter and me, but he was more brown and his color not as even as Lora's. Nice, but not remarkable.

 

Lora and David also both perform in a beautiful way. In any other pairing among us, the copulation can be jagged or frantic, especially as it leads up toward a climax. But when David and Lora are at it, they are always in a smooth motion that builds like a wave until it breaks, with great power, but smoothly. It is a privilege and joy to watch them have sex. That's fine - but it was when they hold hands or walk with their arms around each other, I struggle a little. Not as much, just a little.

 

Last night after the children went to sleep, it was nice because Lora, Red and Clair decided to go to the "big bed together" for sex, leaving David and I to the double bed. Although I don't have any insecurities about Lora being with either of my other two loves, Red and Clair, I made my usual ("face your fears") offer to Lora to provide any enhancements they may want along the way. Lora had me perform oral on the three of them as they got started, then had Red enter me for a few minutes while she and Clair got going. After that Lora went to Red and told me "I can take it from here." When I left Red was doing Lora doggy as she finger fucked Clair. Then I went to David's bed - it has never been better.

[couplers 4,568]

Wow a long trip to another country with out me...

I ask myself when in in that crazy place what am I afraid of?

 

Having thought about it some more, it wasn't them going off to another country, or the fact that it was a long trip, or even that they got the honeymoon treatment in the hotels at the beginning and end in Fez and Marrakesh (they also dealt with hardships, some self-imposed like sleeping on the ground, no toilets, no shower, uncertain food and water; and some unexpected like a day of diarrhea for David and a day of vomiting for Lora). No, what pissed me off was them going to a country on the edge of the troubles in North Africa. My husband has children now, and he has some responsibility not to chance Clair and I having to tell the children that their father was beheaded, or whatever.

 

I would stop and not demonize Lora. She is not making you feel anything.

 

I don't blame Lora one bit. I admire her tremendously. And I don't blame David, he has NEVER denied me anything. All the problems are mine, in MY head. And I will get through it without fucking things up for anyone else. I'm getting there.

[Lionheart72 2,189]

I had David's baby - one point for me; but Lora hasn't had any child pass through her "birth canal;" is her pussy tighter than mine?

 

Physiologically, no... or if she is tighter it's not because you had a baby but just because she is physically different from you. The muscles in the vaginal walls are incredibly resilient, able to stretch to accommodate birth and then return to their normal size. However, if you have concerns in that area practice you kegels... they help tone those muscles (and feel amazing if you do them during sex).

 

In those moments when David is enjoying one of us, I wonder, does she feel the same as me? Does he feel the same to both of us?

 

If you mean physically, of course not, because you are different people. You are physically constructed differently and so you don't feel the same. Different, however, is not better or worse. It is merely different... and you know this. You are in a longstanding poly relationship. Clare isn't the same person as you either. I'm certain she feels different physically too, but that doesn't seem to have bothered you.

 

Last night after the children went to sleep, it was nice because Lora, Red and Clair decided to go to the "big bed together" for sex, leaving David and I to the double bed. Although I don't have any insecurities about Lora being with either of my other two loves, Red and Clair, I made my usual ("face your fears") offer to Lora to provide any enhancements they may want along the way. Lora had me perform oral on the three of them as they got started, then had Red enter me for a few minutes while she and Clair got going. After that Lora went to Red and told me "I can take it from here." When I left Red was doing Lora doggy as she finger fucked Clair. Then I went to David's bed - it has never been better.

 

So, you had an opportunity to have your husband all to yourself and instead you choose to insinuate yourself into the other group, as a submissive to Lora. Maybe it's just me, but I'm hearing alarm bells all over the place. It raises so many questions, but most them boil down to: Why would you do that?

[Lionheart72 2,189]

I'm suddenly wondering... is this about your relationship with David, or is this about your relationship with Lora?

[bbarnsworth 2,636]

I accept all that you have to say, but this seems a little patronizing. I am here, you are not; I see Lora and can compare her to me, you can't. A very few examples (don't think that I haven't composed a list of hundreds): I am fit, very fit, but Lora is fitter. She has objectively has more muscle than me and is more powerful. That girl has the bubble butt of a black women, but the lucky few of us that have been allowed to put their hands on it feel no fat, just muscle. ... Lora has tits you can actually play with, mine you don't quite get a mouthful; I had David's baby - one point for me; but Lora hasn't had any child pass through her "birth canal;" is her pussy tighter than mine? In those moments when David is enjoying one of us, I wonder, does she feel the same as me? Does he feel the same to both of us?

 

I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be patronizing and it is certainly not my intent.

 

You're right; I'm not there, you are. I still find your summation inaccurate. You're using objective measurements to measure something that is subjective. You can not measure yourself. You just can't. This is a subjective thing. You want to have a Lora vs. Petra olympics? Ok, maybe she wins. But, that's objective. You're taking all these things, stacking them up, and claiming she's physically superior to you. Bollocks.

[couplers 4,568]

I'm suddenly wondering... is this about your relationship with David, or is this about your relationship with Lora?

 

You are right and I realized it all along. Neither David or Lora ever did anything wrong. The very things that bother me, David is able to accept from me and has accepted from the beginning without jealousy or any expectation of reciprocity. It is all my problem.

 

MEANWHILE, BACK AT THE RANCH....

Yesterday I acceded to the wisdom of the collective on Swingers Board and spoke to David about my feelings. While David and I were in the car alone, the topic of Morocco came up (as it frequently does because of how unusual the experience was). He said how much he appreciated going on the trip and I used that as an opening to say that there were things that troubled me about it. I started with that it was foolish and irresponsible to go to a place where someone intending them harm could easily take advantage of them and no one would ever know what happened. As I expected, he disagreed and there was no resolution. I then brought up my issue with Lora, soft-pedalling it by saying that I had (past tense) a problem with jealousy of Lora. He was genuinely surprised, bringing up the fact that it was I who brought them (lovers before me) back together and I didn't object to the trip. Guess I wasn't clear that it wasn't jealousy of their relationship as much as my jealousy of her personally. He then said what I feared: that he was willing to stop seeing and/or screwing her, that we should stop letting her stay with us (she has her own place, but is increasingly at our house). I casually said that I didn't want any of that, it was a problem I used to have, I really like her as do the children, she's been helpful, etc. David said ok, but as always, "Anything you want, Pet." I don't want him or Lora to change; I want to change.

 

 

We got home sort of late, and Lora asked if I could sleep with her that night. It surprised me a little because although Lora is not inhibited, she is not as bi as Clair and I are; she's a girl that likes men, but will pretty much do anything girl-girl as long as there is a guy there. I said it would be great. Long story short, we made love, just the two of us. It was sooo nice playing with her tits as we did, and have her play with mine. We held one another during the night. We got up early enough to do it again in the morning. So everything was great; I had Lora, Clair and hubby had each other, no jealousy there. Progress, I think.

[Glida 250]

I've had that feeling of 'she's more (fill in the blank) than me'. It's horrible. There's no logic and nothing anybody says makes you see anything any different. The constant voice in your head which as someone here pointed out, will lie to you.

 

I understood for myself that my loss of confidence in myself, in us, was not a happy place, and the key for me was returning to where I felt secure and in love with myself again. That came by spending time together just the two of us, some connection, talking, sharing and intimacy. Sometimes we need to speak up and ask for what we need and give ourselves permission to take what we need. It sounds like some one on one time with David is what you need.

 

Take your time together, for however long feels right.

[Lionheart72 2,189]

MEANWHILE, BACK AT THE RANCH....

Yesterday I acceded to the wisdom of the collective on Swingers Board and spoke to David about my feelings. While David and I were in the car alone, the topic of Morocco came up (as it frequently does because of how unusual the experience was). He said how much he appreciated going on the trip and I used that as an opening to say that there were things that troubled me about it. I started with that it was foolish and irresponsible to go to a place where someone intending them harm could easily take advantage of them and no one would ever know what happened. As I expected, he disagreed and there was no resolution. I then brought up my issue with Lora, soft-pedalling it by saying that I had (past tense) a problem with jealousy of Lora. He was genuinely surprised, bringing up the fact that it was I who brought them (lovers before me) back together and I didn't object to the trip. Guess I wasn't clear that it wasn't jealousy of their relationship as much as my jealousy of her personally. He then said what I feared: that he was willing to stop seeing and/or screwing her, that we should stop letting her stay with us (she has her own place, but is increasingly at our house). I casually said that I didn't want any of that, it was a problem I used to have, I really like her as do the children, she's been helpful, etc. David said ok, but as always, "Anything you want, Pet." I don't want him or Lora to change; I want to change.

 

Well, it's a start but clearly you're still having trouble expressing what you feel. Keep trying.

 

We got home sort of late, and Lora asked if I could sleep with her that night. It surprised me a little because although Lora is not inhibited, she is not as bi as Clair and I are; she's a girl that likes men, but will pretty much do anything girl-girl as long as there is a guy there. I said it would be great. Long story short, we made love, just the two of us. It was sooo nice playing with her tits as we did, and have her play with mine. We held one another during the night. We got up early enough to do it again in the morning. So everything was great; I had Lora, Clair and hubby had each other, no jealousy there. Progress, I think.

 

I am still really wondering if this isn't a big part of the issue. The way you've been talking about how wonderful and perfect Lora is, and the way you've been inserting yourself into her sexual encounters with others, really make me wonder if the problem is that you are strongly attracted to Lora. What do you think?

[GoldCoCouple 4,063]

Hey, it sounds like the talking thing actually helped. And it also sounds like you, even with all of your (self perceived) problems and short comings, especially when compared to Lora, are the one that he would pick in a hot New York minute. Don't be so hard on yourself. If you were that bad, you wouldn't be surrounded by all these people who care so much about you. Just accept it and yourself and enjoy what you have, don't waste so much time worrying about what (in your eyes) you are not. We are always our own worst critic...You actually remind me of myself when I was younger and I wasn't good enough for me. Luckily, I got over it (lol).

[couplers 4,568]

Glida said:

I've had that feeling of 'she's more (fill in the blank) than me'. It's horrible. There's no logic and nothing anybody says makes you see anything any different. The constant voice in your head which as someone here pointed out, will lie to you.

 

I understood for myself that my loss of confidence in myself, in us, was not a happy place, and the key for me was returning to where I felt secure and in love with myself again. That came by spending time together just the two of us, some connection, talking, sharing and intimacy. Sometimes we need to speak up and ask for what we need and give ourselves permission to take what we need. It sounds like some one on one time with David is what you need.

 

Take your time together, for however long feels right.

 

Thank you so much for your post! You are someone that understands exactly how I feel and the irrationality of what I am struggling with. My feelings (of jealousy, inadequacy) don't make sense to me objectively and are not the result of Lora or David doing anything wrong. Spending one-on-one time with David does help make me feel like my old self, and having Lora around so much does help to create that time by Lora lending Clair a hand with the children (Red acts like their father as well, but no man, even David the children's father, can do as good a job of watching after little ones as a woman can). But even when David and I are alone together, Lora is in the back of my mind: Did I shove her aside to create this time together and is David missing her/resenting it? Does Lora miss him?

 

Where I do disagree with you a little is what seems to help the most. It is spending time with Lora. In some ways I think I crave her approval. It doesn't matter if it is just her and me, or if David and Lora are screwing in the next room. Being nearby gives me a sense of domestic satisfaction, being in the know, in the loop, managing the situation. The worst is when they are off doing small things together, like running errands.

[sunbuckus 3,567]

Where I do disagree with you a little is what seems to help the most. It is spending time with Lora. In some ways I think I crave her approval. It doesn't matter if it is just her and me, or if David and Lora are screwing in the next room. Being nearby gives me a sense of domestic satisfaction, being in the know, in the loop, managing the situation. The worst is when they are off doing small things together, like running errands.

 

Petra, I think both of you are correct. I think some one-on-one time with David can help but I also think some one-on-one time with Lora will help, too. Connecting and strengthening your bond with David can help you feel more secure in the relationship. Meanwhile, spending time with Lora also helps those "demons" in your mind because you are reminded of how human she really is instead of some goddess that is placed on a pedestal in your mind. Does that make sense? Whenever I feel insecure about myself, I find that both strategies work to keep those irrational feelings at bay.

[couplers 4,568]

I got a wonderful surprise. In a move that shows that men aren't as clueless as I thought, David arranged next weekend for he and I to go to one of my favorite places in New England. He even has Clair, Red and Lora on board to make sure the children are taken care of. (I know it's overly cautious of me, but I'm not comfortable unless two women are watching the children. One person can't keep an eye on both, and men just don't pay attention.)

 

We used to go to this place a couple of times a year, often just the two of us, but not within the last two years. The family that runs the place knows about our poly family and is graciously accepting. It was the place that hubby, Red and I had our first threesome (before that I was just going between the two WITH their knowledge). It was the time and place where I finally felt totally free of the Catholic Church.

 

(Funny, but the first step, losing my unmarried virginity to Red at 17, was the hardest because of the Catholic upbringing guilt; continuing to sleep with Red after we split just because I needed the sex was easier because I deserved it; meeting David and having sex alternately with him and Red made me feel freaky, but like I found my real self. Then the step, of having both David and Red make love to me at the same time was the easiest, it felt like the most natural and honest thing in the world. The final step of David and I marrying legitimized everything.)

 

OK, I feel good again about myself and where we are.

[Glida 250]

With regards to Lora, I hear 'keep your friends close and your enemies even closer' Does that sound harsh? I mean I hear you say that you want to be kept 'in the know' and 'in the loop' and control things actually.

 

And it sounds to me that her approval that you crave could mean for you validation that she wont hurt you or take anything that doesn't belong to her.

 

Feelings do not go away by themselves. Especially if You have been festering for long enough. Might you be too afraid of telling David the truth? That's why you've said things in past tense and replied casually to his statements when actually you probably wanted to scream. I remember feelings of "I can't be honest now because that makes me weak". Or "If I ask him to give something up for me because I'm not 100% with it then that somehow makes me even more of a failier".

 

And were you being honest with yourself about Morocco? Would there have been no issues had they flown to London?

 

I could be really off the mark here but one things for sure...You need to rebuild intimacy between the two of you. No Lora.

Spend as long as you need and do whatever it takes but don't force it. You do not need to change, give yourself a break darling.

[couplers 4,568]

Major drama yesterday evening. Lora and I were alone so I brought up the subject of "my feelings" toward her of jealousy, inadequacy, etc. Immediately there was both anger and tears from her. She asked "How do you think I feel?" She said that she left her husband because of us. She was trying to please her parents (turns out a major reason she and David split was because her father's disapproval of her dating a white guy had turned violently angry as they got serious, and her mother said to think of the grandchildren. Her parents were very pleased when she found a BMW (black man working) and married Walter). She thought that she could be happy with Walter, but it was my fault that I brought her and David back together. All merely for my sexual kicks. At first she thought that I had the answer, since Walter was great with swinging it would be a life where she could be married to one guy while still having a relationship with David; fucking Red was icing on the cake. But two things made her realize it wasn't what she wanted: moving with Walter to the other coast and the week she spent together with David when they were both in the same city on business. But she also said that being with David was better than before because of me, that I hadn't taken him, but "completed" him. So it was that she didn't just get an unsolicited job offer back here, she worked hard to seek one out, and made the difficult decision to tell Walter she was divorcing him. Lora said she has been trying hard not to be a bother to us and to help out, she thought it was working; there are moments of bliss, but knows she could be asked to leave at any time.

 

I stood there with my mouth open, realizing how self-centered I've been, having expected sympathy and compassion from Lora with no clue on my part about how she feels. She punched me (sort of, not really); I grabbed her and we fell over. Lora cried as we did a comic cat fight, then she kissed me really, really hard, sucking the breath right out of me.

 

When David and Clair got back home they saw that things were amiss and asked what happened. I said that Lora and I had been fighting; neither one of them believed it and that was that. Lora didn't go back to her place as she planned that night, we asked David to sleep between us. It was just sleep because both Lora and I had fucked Red earlier in the day (as I've sort of explained before, Red lives separately because he's not manic/depressive, but sort of a manic/mellow worker (no drugs of any type involved), and not in the normal professional life flow like the rest of us. But when he is on the upswing from mellow to manic, his sexual needs are high, so I fucked him at lunch and Lora after work) and hubby had sex with Clair already. We put hubby in the middle; I put my arm over him to hold Lora.

[Lionheart72 2,189]

Well...

 

I honestly don't know whether to be worried or encouraged by these new revelations from Lora, because I'm not there in the thick of it.

 

It sounds like it's good that you talked to her. It also sounds like there is a lot more talking to be done. The only way this can end well is if everyone is open and honest with each other, and it sounds like you're finally off to a solid start on that with Lora. Good work.

[couplers 4,568]

For all my consternation about Lora, I have come to realize that it would be more upsetting to me if Lora and hubby didn't want to see each other. I admire them both too much to think that they don't have the same admiration for one another.

 

 

Besides, I have no jealousy with hubby and Clair (they're genuinely in love), or Lora and Red (it's mostly, but not only, sex - they care for one another). Clair and hubby express their love in front of me (how could they not, they have a child together), no problems. Two factors: Lora had David before I did, so there's always the question. Second, I see Clair as complimentary to me in most ways whereas Lora is the same as me, so it's more competitive. I asked hubby if Lora loves him. He said, "Yes." I asked if he loved her. He said, "I'm getting there." Funny, but telling me those answers I felt, "I'm good with that." I told hubby that Lora shouldn't have any inhibitions about saying how she feels in front of me; it would be good for both of us.

[Glida 250]

I stood there with my mouth open, realizing how self-centered I've been, having expected sympathy and compassion from Lora with no clue on my part about how she feels.

 

first of all give yourself a break...both of you sound like you were shocked and upset by the whole chat last night but it's no surprise since this is the first time really that you've attemted to talk openly to Lora...

Secondly, talk about this again and again and again... sometimes when we open bare ourselves to other people, they react instead of listen and the whole reason for opening things is not initially for the other person to say or do whatever we need to feel better, it's to be heard and understood. This is cleansing!

 

When I bring things out into the open, I'm not looking for answers i'm looking for acknowledgment, understanding and acceptance of where I am right now and that the other person hears me, only then the healing can begin...

 

Did she 'hear you'? Its sounds like you opened up, she flipped out so you backed down and were triggered into thinking that you're being self centered and have no reason to feel what you feel. Maybe there is no reason to feel what you feel but Your feelings of jealousy and inadequacy are real to you, don't sweep this under the rug just becasue it causes reactions that are upsetting.

 

Talk. talk, talk, be honest and be heard, from here you will find your way. There is no shame in feeling what you feel and people that love you want to help you.

 

I don't know Lora, i'm not on any side but when i read your posts I see myself in some of the things you write...I hate bringing up sensitive issues and if I'm challenged, I back down believing that i'm crazy, it's my fault, I'm being selfish.

 

Put yourself at the top of your list darling...you have a voice x

[couplers 4,568]

OK, my poly faith in myself is being restored.

 

Lora didn't make mention of what David had planned for him and me, but I asked her if she would mind going with David to our special place this weekend while I spend time with the children. She has never been there before. At first I was thinking of just inviting her along, but I thought, how poly is that? How romantic would that be for the two of them to have the third wheel wife there? I really feel good now, they can work on their relationship and I can work on mine, which is sharing my husband with someone he is falling in love with. Lora's happy, David is amused, and Clair, Red and I are planning activities with the children.

 

I addressed my biggest concern by giving Lora my bear spray.

[bbarnsworth 2,636]

All very encouraging, even the 'fight'. Getting it open, getting it said...such a powerful healing tool if done with compassion.

[couplers 4,568]

When hubby and Lora got back yesterday (Sunday) evening, all was well. The children were happy to see "father" (they call Red "dad"), Lora and hubby clearly had a good time, and I felt calm, grateful, appreciative. Hubby tried carving out some time and attention for me, but I told him that if he didn't mind, to sleep with Clair, she needed him more. Lora and I slept together (hubby and I had a "quickie" this morning), and I feel like I'm back in control. Not so much of the situation or the family, but of myself.

[GoNatural 104]

Hi couplers, I've read the whole thread. I can relate to your situation. First, I've been in a poly relationship for 5 years, and second because I've compared myself a lot to some of my partner's other partners. I have prime evidence of it right here: Not supposed to compare ourselves, but... - Polyamory.com Forum

 

Reading some of it may be cathartic for you. It's a thread that I wrote nearly 5 years ago. In the end, I still compare myself to other lovers, but I've stuck it out long enough that I don't find one if them to be as superior as I first thought since I got to know him well over the years and I know his imperfections too. No one is perfect. He however is tall while I'm short. He has a nice cock that's deliciously thick, & he's more highly educated. It has been tremendously tough, but I'm pretty much over feeling anxious when they are together (& no I'm not stellar at oral).

 

I'm glad that you admitted that you felt some jealousy at times. It was super hard for me to admit my feelings of insecurity the first time. Then I felt insecure about having felt insecure in the first place. It was a tough cycle to break out of. I had to build my self esteem while communicating well and being persistent.

 

I learned that no one else can give my partner that experience of being in a relationship with me. I have have intrinsic value just for being uniquely me. That was a powerful enough realization that I could be at peace.

 

I also learned to speak in I statements when coming out about my feelings. "I feel jealous when x happens" or "I feel insecure about my ability to give oral", versus "it makes me jealous when", or worst of all..."you make me jealous when x". It seems like you did well communicating your feelings in a non-confrontational way.

 

You did seem ever so slightly in denial a couple of times when you sorted through and tried to explain what made you feel insecure. You didn't veer off too far, but be aware that us poly people can sometimes downplay how we really feel about something, even to ourselves, because we don't want to risk the rare arrangements of relationships that we find ourselves in. Be very honest with yourself about your insecurities from one day to the next. Fortunately, once we make them clear they often seem less monstrous. Then, once we come out honestly with the insecurity, just the act of admitting them and being heard and accepted can even further weaken those fears.

 

It does sound like you're through the woods on this. Be sure not to give up too much of your time with David though that was originally meant to be some alone time for just you two. I've seen couples make this mistake.

 

It sounds like you all have an amazing sex life. All that group sex is something I envy. My poly experience has not been that way. I had better threesomes before with casual couples than in my poly pod. I miss the DP's and creampies of the casual couples.

 

Last, like some guy mentioned above, all women feel different sexually. It's usually not a big difference, but the wall texture of the vagina may feel thicker or thinner, smoother or more textured, wetter or less wet. Tightness is usually quite similar. I've been with about 25 women, so I have something to reference. Tightness is so overrated, in my opinion. I'm actually more turned on when a woman has a capacious vagina. I'm hugely turned on by her being able to accommodate a BiG cock, large strap-on, or maybe even a fist. Tightness isn't the same as overall vagina size anyway though. Oh, and your body is one that I think many many would find hot. Lots of us think athletic sinewy women with B cups or smaller are hot! We may find plain average body types to be hot too. What's best is that you are different and unique. You are a unique and special blend. Take heart!

[couplers 4,568]

Hi couplers, I've read the whole thread. I can relate to your situation. First, I've been in a poly relationship for 5 years, and second because I've compared myself a lot to some of my partner's other partners. ... Take heart!

 

Thank you for your thoughtful post. I read it early today and been thinking about the points you've made. All in all I think I'm through it, which is good because Lora seems to have become something of a permanent guest here. She hardly goes to her place, and it's sort of turn into somewhere closer to the city for any one of us when needed.

 

As I've said in other contexts before, I am a competitive person. That has been a positive thing in my life, but when it intersected with sex, love, and things about me that I can't change, it threw me for a while. But Lora (and hubby) have been great, never have they done anything that I could fault. So we're all in a good place now. I couldn't imagine Lora not being part of the dynamic now. Sort of I used to see the relationship world as male/female opposite and complimentary. Now it is male/female'/female''; Lora and I are complimentary to one another, but both female to hubby's and Red's maleness. And the basic tenet of being poly holds: their love for each other hasn't diminished the love and attention that I get.

[Ebonylehigh 254]

I am really glad you worked through this. It has been fascinating reading your experience. Thank you for being so honest and open. I personally though would feel more threatened by a woman you know your husband loves and has a child with. She has given him everything you have and have it all as well. Why doesn't that bother you than this ex whom he has clearly then and now will choose you over?

[couplers 4,568]

If anyone has missed my wacky personality and crazy poly stories, I apologize for having dropped from the Board for a few months. It has been an extremely busy time for all of us in the poly family - husband David, Clair and Lora, and Red (all of us sexually intimate except Red and Clair, and the guys) and our children, Junior and Petunia (not their real names). We are all deeply involved in our life's work, raising the children as best as five adults can, and looking for a home. All of us now live together (except Red, who lives close by) in a house that has become too small. We need a home that can accommodate us and our needs, and more children.

 

Lora's divorce from Walter is final and she is now definitely part of our poly family despite my initial jealousy of her. The only other relationship development has been an evolution between Lora and me, sort of a poly dark side.

 

When Lora and I had our fight, I called Lora a stupid, ugly black cunt. A person is only hurt by insults that have a grain of truth to them. Calling Lora stupid and ugly were empty shots that missed, calling her a black cunt hurt her because I was insulting her for something that she is. (It's ironic because the reason I have my issues with Lora is that she scares me because she is better than me. So out of desperation I use a crazy insult.) But Lora and I have moved on from there, although not in an entirely positive way. We both now find it exciting to re-enact that fight in varying ways. When alone, just Lora and me, if we start sex it is with one of us fondling the other but also taunting (she calls me "a skinny-ass, no tits white boy", asks "what's that between your legs?" and says, "you let me fuck your husband, are you stupid or what?"). Our routine is for me to insult her, she starts pulling my hair. Once when playing this way, it happened that we "broke character" when Lora said "I gotta pee." We were naked at the moment, so I pushed her into the shower, knelt down and had her pee on me. It was so perverted, but what a rush having the woman that is better than me, that loves my husband, that I just called a bitch, stand over me, squat a little and take a piss on me! (It then became a mutual, loving wash in the shower, then sex.) Our play fights, which can become quite physical in a adolescent wrestling way, are best if we can do it right before one or more family members join us, not knowing how excited it makes Lora and me. It's now our fetish, something we can't do very often. I'll admit, we were so desperate once, we got a hotel room. We now regularly do it when we're by ourselves. We scream and shout and insult one another and it ends up with us pulling the other's hair and having rough sex. I've thought about whether this represents some deep seated perversion or relationship dysfunction and have concluded not. There were never any of these thoughts when the four of us were playing with Lora and Walter while they were married even though hubby was screwing Lora then, and both Clair and I were having sex with her husband, Walter. All this became a contrivance in my mind when I became jealous of Lora leaving her husband to be with hubby.

 

Those nights when the arrangement is David, Lora in the middle, and me in bed we hold each other tightly and she whispers in my ear, "I'm fucking your husband."

 

When I think about it, however, it would be more upsetting to me if Lora and hubby didn't want to have their relationship.

[Lionheart72 2,189]

Thanks for the update.

 

If I'm reading you right, it sounds like you've found a way to turn a negative into a positive. I think a little walk on the kinkier side seems to be strengthening your relationship overall.

[GoldCoCouple 4,063]

Thanks for the update...if we weren't interested in them, we wouldn't have asked.

[couplers 4,568]

Thanks for the update.

 

If I'm reading you right, it sounds like you've found a way to turn a negative into a positive. I think a little walk on the kinkier side seems to be strengthening your relationship overall.

 

The realization is that I don't need to justify any of this - to myself. I have come to the understanding that in this five way relationship that Clair is my comfort, Lora my challenge.

[couplers 4,568]

Hi Petra popping in again with an update for those following the poly chronicles.

 

We found the perfect place for our family and bought a house! Spent more (way more) than we intended but had to now that Lora is part of the family. Still, on a per-person basis, it is reasonable. The difficult part was the financing and ownership arrangements; banks don't usually have five people showing up wanting to get a mortgage together. It's more like a commercial loan. The saying that everyone should have a good plumber, a good accountant, and a good lawyer on-call is true. The place is a very large with a good-size guesthouse on the property for Red that can be joined to a separate garage that he can use as a studio. We move in two months, hopefully the weather will be better.

 

And sooooo, the decision has been made that we women (all three of us) are going to get pregnant, including Lora. Because Clair got pregnant first last time (inadvertently), Clair and Lora are not going to start until after I test positive. So I am going off my pills shortly, and once I am knocked up Clair will stop her pills and Lora will have her IUD removed. What will be really strange is that since the plan is for me to get pregnant by Red (unlike last time's "pot luck"), while Clair and Lora will have their children by David, we will have to control our love making.

 

Saturday evening after the children have gone to bed is routinely our night for group sex play. We have already discussed how it will soon be careful group fertility practice. Until we accomplish our pregnancies no sex except with the one intended to be co-parent. And nothing wasted, especially for David since he has two women to serve.

 

If all goes as planned this time next year we will have five children in our home. All of them my children, all of them Clair's children, all of them Lora's children, all of them David's children, all of them Red's children.

[Lionheart72 2,189]

Wow... that's a long step from where this thread started. Congratulations.

[couplers 4,568]

Lionheart72 said:

Wow... that's a long step from where this thread started. Congratulations.

 

Thank you. Yes, things have changed since my dark days. Is there a way to change the title of this thread to something like "Petra's Poly Follies?"

 

Lora and I still have our "fights," more like wrestling matches, when we are alone. We can get quite physical in a violent way (a few small bruises) and trade some tired insults, but we also have sex unlike anything with anyone else, male or female. Lora and I don't love one another the way we love the others, but Lora and hubby are in love, so that's enough for me. It does give me some jealousy, some burn for hubby that I have come to crave that I don't have when Clair is with hubby or when Red and Lora are together. As I said in my post before last, "Clair is my comfort, Lora my challenge." I guess when we're pregnant Lora and I will just have to slap each other on the ass.

[GoldCoCouple 4,063]

Congratulations on the house and thanks again for letting us know what is happening in your lives. 3 newborn babies at the same time however...good luck. Keep letting us know how things are continuing for all of you.

[couplers 4,568]

Congratulations on the house and thanks again for letting us know what is happening in your lives. 3 newborn babies at the same time however...good luck. Keep letting us know how things are continuing for all of you.

 

We spent some time discussing how to grow our family, and decided for a couple of reasons to try to have the next children around the same time, if possible. First, it worked so well for Clair and I supporting each other through our pregnancies last time. Second, with five adults in the house the work really does divide the work and make things easier. Third, there are economies of scales to having the children going through the same stage at the same time, everything from diapers and strollers to having three women able to breast feed.

 

The unexpected development we had to deal with is that Lora just showed up and started living and wanted to join our family. That's where we had most of our discussion. You may know that Lora: was a girlfriend of hubby's before I met him, broke up with him because of family pressures (she's black, the rest of us white), started playing with hubby at my urging (admittedly because I find her incredibly attractive), brought her boyfriend Walter (willingly) into the picture, Lora and Walter married while we kept swinging with them, Lora divorced Walter and joined us.

 

I will say it straight out - Lora and hubby (my husband) are very much in love. My worry, along with hubby, Red and Clair, was that Lora was being impulsive and would come to regret tying up her life with ours. But she has fit in so well, especially with our children that when she wanted to join us in buying the house we all independently agreed. And she wants a child with hubby; Lora's regret isn't joining us, it was leaving hubby in the first place because her family wanted her to marry a black man. At first she thought that she had it all by being married to Walter and having hubby as a lover, but it only made her see what she really wanted. In the end we only turned down Lora for one thing - she came into some money from the estate of an aunt (a significant amount, but not enormous), and wanted to commit it to purchase of the house, but still getting only a one-fifth ownership share. We told her there was no need to prove her commitment.

 

I will continue to update folks here and try not to bore. People tend to go on about houses and children more than others want to hear, so my plan is to stick to how it all relates to the poly side of our lives.

[couplers 4,568]

The Petra periodic poly update for those of you that remeber me:

 

We closed on our house (hubby likes to call it our "compound," like the Kennedy's) a couple weeks earlier than planned and have moved in, but certainly aren't really settled yet. It comfortably holds us five adults and two children with room for several more kids.

 

At Claire's urging, I've already gone off the pill and this time I will definitely have a child with Red, not leaving it to chance as last time (both Clair and I had our babies with hubby last time). So we are now in the unusual situation of me only having sex (penis-in-vagina sex, that is) with Red, and not with my husband. Talk about a weird situation. We make a practice of sometimes when I'm having sex with Red, hubby holds and kisses me; sometimes while he's simultaneously having sex with Lora or Clair. In order to save his sperm for making a baby, Red won't have sex with Lora or cum orally or anally with me, except like once a month during my infertile time.

 

A touching sidenote: the first time we had our weekend, poly family sexual get together after I stopped the pill, Lora sucked Red until he came, held it in her mouth as the others turned me upside down over the back of the couch, and Lora kissed it into me. She said, "I hope this gets you pregnant, Petra."

 

After I am pregnant, Clair and Lora will stop their birth control (the pill, IUD, respectively) and hubby will get them pregnant so we can hopefully have our children around the same time. That's the short version; there's a lot more going on in life generally, and in poly life specifically, that could fill a book. It is an interesting dynamic among us where every relationship is so different, including the sexual dynamics, both straight, and lesbian among us girls. One of the oddities of it all is that David and I are the married couple in this wonderful, wonderful mess.

 

 

Anyway, thanks for listening, it makes for good therapy for me and I hope good reading for you. I will answer questions if you have any.