Major question about women and the Lifestyle

[SwingAcademic 22]

I'm having trouble understanding something. I've looked all over the Internet and in books, and cannot find an answer to this question:

 

When women are single, many times they do some or all of the following things:

 

1) Dating and sleeping with jerks who are disrespectful to them, or aren't concerned with her pleasure.

 

2) Being disrespectful themselves to actual gentlemen (making scenes, biting mens' heads off for talking to them, making phony complaints to bartenders about them, etc.)

 

3) Acting like sex is something bad or dirty.

 

4) Thinking they have to have sex only with their boyfriend.

 

5) Thinking that an orgy is the most disgusting thing in the world.

 

6) Being dishonest about what they want sexually.

 

7) Forcing men to take them on at least six dates, or buy them a bunch of stuff, before they will have sex with them.

 

8) Thinking every man they don't know at a vanilla bar, or even in public, is "creepy", without even talking to them first.

 

9) Saying, "I really need to get to know you first." before having sex with a man, and then that time period drags on for weeks or months.

 

10) Having sex for every reason except pleasure or love (such as being able to brag to their friends about the guy they had sex with.)

 

 

Then women get married, discover the Lifestyle, and they do a 180-degree turnaround. Now they want respectful gentlemen, not jerks. They realize that it IS actually alright to have plenty of sex with different partners, even if they've only just met the man/men that evening. Sex becomes a beautiful thing to them, rather than something "dirty". They become honest about their sexual desires. They realize that orgies could be a beautiful, fun thing. If they are not interested in a man, they will politely decline, rather than making a scene. They don't brag to their friends about having had sex with someone. And of course, they don't ask a male they're interested in, whether he's part of a couple or single, to buy her a bunch of drinks and stuff before she'll have sex with him.

 

I should know. I went to a swinger's club in my area a couple times, once being escorted in with a couple, and once as a single male by himself. There is a night-and-day difference in the behavior of swinger women as opposed to non-swinger women, and the swinger women's behavior is much, much better.

 

Why is it that women change their tune about sex so hard only AFTER they get married and get into the Lifestyle?

[sunbuckus 3,567]

First of all, you're making a sweeping generalization about all women and it's not true of all women. There are women out there that are more open sexual from the get-go.

 

Second, there are a lot of factors that can influence why a woman thinks/acts in the above ways. One of them is upbringing. Some are taught that sex is dirty or only meant for one man--the one they marry. Some are taught that monogamy is the right way to live and anything else is wrong. Some are taught that "sluts" are bad and it results in slut-shaming and trying to avoid being called a slut.

 

Third, watch movies and listen to music. How much of it is unconsciously showing us what is "normal"? Marriage between a man and a woman is what is shown--hardly a woman/woman or man/man marriage. What about women having sex with only one man at a time but men can juggle several women and it's "normal"? What about all of those songs where there is an emphasis on how bad nonmonogamy is but they don't really focus on what the issue is...deception and lying? All of these seep into our consciousness and if you aren't aware of any other way of life, you begin to think that all others are "not normal".

 

Forth, there's such a thing as mental maturity. You're comparing young women who might not have a lot of life experiences to older ones who have seen a lot more and experienced more in their life.

 

Fifth, if one is brought up in a religious house-hold that can also have a major impact in how a woman views sex. I guess that's part of the second point I was making.

 

 

For myself, it was all of the above of why there was that "180-degree turnaround". I was brought up in a religious household. I was taught that sex was dirty and shouldn't be talked about. I was taught that masturbating, porn, pre-marital sex, and sex outside of a marriage was wrong, wrong, wrong. I was taught that one should dress modestly. I still am "brainwashed" by the media in terms of what we should look like, how we should act, and what we should look for in a sexual partner. I was a very naive young woman (and still am in terms of life experiences) but I continue to mature and hope to do so until I die.

 

I am sure there are a lot of other factors that I haven't addressed but I listed the ones that created that turnaround for myself.

[MrDiscover 802]

It sounds like your view on women (and marriage) is colored by your experiences, as sunbuckus says your views are certainly not true for all women. Your post reads more like a complaint if I'm totally honest and I think that will limit the range of responses to your question.

 

To answer your question: no 180-degree turn-around in this household, more like a shift of course. MsD never showed any behavior of your list. And we already were already swinging when not married. As we are not and certainly never will be.

 

If you make your view wider and less wronged, you'll see so much more.

 

Just my 2 cents.

[kikonkrome 843]

I'm having trouble understanding something. I've looked all over the Internet and in books, and cannot find an answer to this question:

 

When women are single, many times they do some or all of the following things:

 

1) Dating and sleeping with jerks who are disrespectful to them, or aren't concerned with her pleasure.

 

2) Being disrespectful themselves to actual gentlemen (making scenes, biting mens' heads off for talking to them, making phony complaints to bartenders about them, etc.)

 

3) Acting like sex is something bad or dirty.

 

4) Thinking they have to have sex only with their boyfriend.

 

5) Thinking that an orgy is the most disgusting thing in the world.

 

6) Being dishonest about what they want sexually.

 

7) Forcing men to take them on at least six dates, or buy them a bunch of stuff, before they will have sex with them.

 

8) Thinking every man they don't know at a vanilla bar, or even in public, is "creepy", without even talking to them first.

 

9) Saying, "I really need to get to know you first." before having sex with a man, and then that time period drags on for weeks or months.

 

10) Having sex for every reason except pleasure or love (such as being able to brag to their friends about the guy they had sex with.)

 

 

This is BS that get's handed men.

 

Sure there is a LOT of this out there, but there is a LOT of other stuff too. I would recommend looking at life from a perspective of sexual abundance rather than sexual scarcity. The reality is in western society a single man can have sex with as many single women he wants, if you make them want you. This is where the sexual abundance thing comes in. Frankly, I haven't seen all of this disappear just because I am at a swing club, but I do know how to avoid it.

 

I think what you want to do is just get yourself used to avoiding this in the 'vanilla' world, and you will have to avoid this in the swinger world to IMHO. This does take some getting used to and a mental shift in the way you think. A girl is bitchy to you in the regular world, on to the next!!

 

I know I also spent time in how I interacted with women. Can't be creepy!!! It definitely takes practice and there are other forums on the internet that can really help with that.

 

Finally in response to 1), why do you care if some idiot chick dates a jerk? Don't you want the smart chick that dates you?

 

Oh and direct answers to the specific questions you are asking are on the internet and in books, but I'm not really here to promote other sites or somebodies books. If you like PM and I will give you details. However you make not like all the answers.

 

Good luck.

[angelkin 1,326]

Hmmmm - devil's advocate here...

 

Why do single men generally treat women like a piece of meat to be devoured and not a dessert intended to be savored and enjoyed?

 

Why do single men chase women only to not call us after they get in our pants?

 

Who do men who get sex early on or the first date determine that she's not relationship material and lacks respect for herself if she puts out right away?

 

Why do men wine and dine us ladies and lead us to believe that a low libido or general disinterest in sex is ok - only to then get married and complain or cheat when they aren't getting enough sex?

 

Why do men think that an orgy or fmf threesome is the hottest thing in the world?

 

Why do single men take women out on dates, buy them gifts, and treat them nicely if he's not really willing to invest the time to get to know her...and then resent her for his own impatience?

 

Why do men blame the lady for dragging things out - when men have the ability to find a woman who is more suited to his sexual speed and appetite?

 

Why do single men need to conquer women - adding one more notch in their bedpost?

 

See how easily that all can get turned around? As a woman who has been single - and married - and now happily in a relationship - I can tell you men chase us, get creepy, want to jump right into sex, hurt us emotionally, and then call us bitches or gold diggers when we want to wait to form a bond before sex.

 

Sorry, struck a nerve with me right there. Signed - a sexually adventurous woman who puts out on the first date.

[swing.kidz 367]

Nice...the MRA/PUA trolls have officially infiltrated our little forum.

[Glida 250]

When women are single, many times they do some or all of the following things:

 

Perhaps your opening line should read...

Amongst the single women that I seem to attract, many times they do some or all of the following things:

 

Firstly if it really bothers you I would look at the common denominator.

Secondly to answer your question. When a woman gets married she shares herself, emotionally, spiritually, physically and mentally with her partner and it's usually because she trusts and loves him and is loved and trusted back. It's called intimacy.

[Guest]

Much of the way we are is shaped by men. As teenagers, we're faced with the conflict of boys wanting to get into our pants on the one hand, and older brothers, fathers and others telling us that these same boys will want to marry virgins. Once you marry us, you want your virgin to have the sexual skills of a professional call girl. I was an attractive package, high school then college cheerleader, varsity gymnastics at both, league tennis well into my 30's; a fit package with boobs. For my first husband, I was arm candy. Look pretty, dress pretty but not too sexually, but don't be overly friendly with men, especially if hubby is not there. He died young, suddenly I was thrown into the meat market.

 

Loneliness, Match.com, dating all came to be. Guys were never who they said they were. If the photo was them, it was taken 20 years ago. They weren't single, they were married or had girl friends. You were he Wednesday night date, you had to fuck to be the Saturday night date, or even to stay as the Wednesday night girl because Saturday was the wife or girlfriend. But I enjoyed going out, I learned to play their game. They were fucking me on Wednesday and wifey on Saturday; I liked sex and still had the body so I dressed for sex and was fucking them on Wednesday, and another on Thursday and Saturday too, and I enjoyed the frequency if not the quality.

 

Then I met my next husband to be. He liked my sexiness, the slut me that I had come to be. No, it wasn't an open relationship, he was protective, somewhat possessive, but allowed me to express my sexy side. Then, together, we got approached with the idea of swinging and we both enjoyed it, together. He was supportive, encouraging, I could have the protections and support of a husband, but the sexiness of a single girl.

 

The point here is that in each phase, it was men telling me what's ok, what's not. I think that is what shapes so much of a girl's behavior. Once you step into the lifestyle, the judgements, encouragements from and behaviors of your new peer group tell you this is all fine and you grow in that direction.

[kikonkrome 843]

Nice...the MRA/PUA trolls have officially infiltrated our little forum.

 

Not even that, too much hatorade.

[SwingAcademic 22]

Sorry it took so long for me to reply to this thread. I got bogged down in so much personal stuff (long hours at work, having to move between living arrangements while my apartment complex undergoes major reconstruction, etc.) that I simply forgot about it and/or haven’t had time.

 

First of all, some people have grossly misunderstood what I’m getting at with this post. I am not looking for pick-up advice, nor am I a woman-hater, or any of that. As for any pickup advice, I’m not going to go to a swingers’ forum to look for that (Personally, I get irritated even looking at sites or books with pickup advice, because they all teach men one thing--how to be better LIARS.) I’ll respond to the statements people made concerning that part first.

 

>>First of all, you're making a sweeping generalization about all women and it's not true of all women. There are women out there that are more open sexual from the get-go

 

No. I said “many”, not “all” women do these things.

 

>>It sounds like your view on women (and marriage) is colored by your experiences, as sunbuckus says your views are certainly not true for all women. Your post reads more like a complaint if I'm totally honest and I think that will limit the range of responses to your question.

 

Obviously, I have witnessed and experienced women doing the things in the list, otherwise I would not know they did them. My post is less of a complaint than simply asking “why?”

 

>>I would recommend looking at life from a perspective of sexual abundance rather than sexual scarcity. The reality is in western society a single man can have sex with as many single women he wants, if you make them want you.

 

If this were the case, those PUA manuals, websites, videos, etc. would not exist, and men would not spend all their money on women trying to get some sex.

 

>>Hmmmm - devil's advocate here...

 

Why do single men generally treat women like a piece of meat to be devoured and not a dessert intended to be savored and enjoyed?

 

Why do single men chase women only to not call us after they get in our pants?

 

Who do men who get sex early on or the first date determine that she's not relationship material and lacks respect for herself if she puts out right away?

 

Why do men wine and dine us ladies and lead us to believe that a low libido or general disinterest in sex is OK - only to then get married and complain or cheat when they aren't getting enough sex?

 

Why do men think that an orgy or fmf threesome is the hottest thing in the world?

 

Why do single men take women out on dates, buy them gifts, and treat them nicely if he's not really willing to invest the time to get to know her...and then resent her for his own impatience?

 

Why do men blame the lady for dragging things out - when men have the ability to find a woman who is more suited to his sexual speed and appetite?

 

Why do single men need to conquer women - adding one more notch in their bedpost?

 

See how easily that all can get turned around? As a woman who has been single - and married - and now happily in a relationship - I can tell you men chase us, get creepy, want to jump right into sex, hurt us emotionally, and then call us bitches or gold diggers when we want to wait to form a bond before sex.

 

 

These are sweeping generalizations of single men.

 

The ones who don’t treat women like that are not wanted or respected by many single vanilla women. Not all single men do think that an orgy or fmf threesome is the hottest thing in the world. And sorry to say, single vanilla women’s behavior begets single males’ behavior. When you see a single male doing something stupid at a swinger club or party (being pushy, using cheesy come-ons, etc.) it’s because he’s behaving in a way that generally works with vanilla women. He may have trouble retraining his mind to understand that he’s in an environment where the women are openly sexual (although not willing to have sex with just anybody), and that that sort of behavior isn’t appreciated (or tolerated in some clubs and parties.)

 

>>Perhaps your opening line should read...

Amongst the single women that I seem to attract, many times they do some or all of the following things

 

We’ve all seen single women do these things whether or not we’re trying to attract them. We’ve all also heard horror stories from males who were passed over for a creep, or from women who had a female friend who passed decent males over for creeps, and the problems that resulted.

 

 

>>why do you care if some idiot chick dates a jerk? Don't you want the smart chick that dates you?

 

All men would rather have the smart chick who dates them. But why do I care if some idiot chick dates a jerk? First of all, I care because I hate to see women hurt, being the respectful caring male that I am. And single vanilla women only hurt themselves by doing these things. Also, many times they cause problems for others who are not even involved in the relationship. Their girlfriends and/or respectful male friends end up having to console them for the hurt they inflicted on themselves by dating a jerk. Sometimes men are played into the middle of these bad relationships, by being blamed when he tried to help either of them out, usually by her. Sometimes women will call sexual harassment on decent males at work to make themselves feel better about the fact that they are dating an a-hole at said work.

 

Now back to the actual question at hand:

 

Sunbuckus, Glida, and chiccouplexx answered part of the question. I get why women might be taught that sex is dirty and shameful when younger, and that some men get jealous and possessive of their girlfriends, thinking they should be virgins or close to before getting married, how the media puts out images and ideas as to how male/female relationships should be, etc.

 

But for some single women, it does not seem to matter what their intelligent female or male friends tell them about how they should think for themselves, realize that sex is NOT a bad thing, not to believe the popular media, and not to believe their stupid male or female friends. It’s not until they get married or are in a stable relationship that they realize these things, and that is the reason for my question.

 

Glida---

 

>>Secondly to answer your question. When a woman gets married she shares herself, emotionally, spiritually, physically and mentally with her partner and it's usually because she trusts and loves him and is loved and trusted back. It's called intimacy.

 

So, you’re saying that a woman has to get married in order to learn how to be caring, sharing, and intimate, even with other partners than her husband?

[SwingAcademic 22]

Anyone???

[PandO 103]

Well, it's clear when reading this why you might have some issues finding a woman.

[SW_PA_Couple 4,023]

Anyone???

Regretfully, cannot help. I am not a woman.

[SwingAcademic 22]

People, I'm asking this from the perspective of a male who doesn't like to see women mess up their lives (or at least, the night) by sleeping with a jerk, and am trying to find out why it takes becoming part of a solid couple-unit to open their eyes to not sleeping with jerks, and enjoying their sexuality to the fullest. I am NOT looking for advice on how to find women.

 

Again, we've ALL seen single vanilla women do these things, WHETHER OR NOT we are trying to attract them, and WHETHER OR NOT we are male, female, homosexual, or whatever.

 

Visit any vanilla bar, and you'll see what I mean. Especially late at night when it's mostly younger people, as they are worse about this than older women. I can be sitting on a bar stool, looking around, and see a woman turn down several men who seem decent and upstanding, then leave with a dirty biker. I was not trying to attract the woman myself.

 

Ladies, I'm sure you all at one time have owned the shoulder that was cried on by a vanilla female friend who got mixed up with a jerk, so you know what I mean, also.

 

I know it seems to be common protocol to simply deny that single vanilla women ever do these things, but I think we all can be honest about the truth in this forum.

 

Please try to see my perspective on this, and answer accordingly. Thank you very much, it will be appreciated.

[sunbuckus 3,567]

Obviously, I have witnessed and experienced women doing the things in the list, otherwise I would not know they did them. My post is less of a complaint than simply asking “why?”

 

There are a lot of reasons why, some that can be surmised and some that cannot. You have to understand that they cannot all be unraveled because human beings are complex. Some are self aware of why they behave a certain way and others are not. It's great to ask why but this isn't a scientific forum where scientists can conduct and collect information to give you the information you seek. All of the members here, swingers or not, can only share anecdotes of what they have experienced in their own lives.

 

Hmmmm - devil's advocate here...

 

Why do single men generally treat women like a piece of meat to be devoured and not a dessert intended to be savored and enjoyed?

 

Why do single men chase women only to not call us after they get in our pants?

 

Who do men who get sex early on or the first date determine that she's not relationship material and lacks respect for herself if she puts out right away?

 

Why do men wine and dine us ladies and lead us to believe that a low libido or general disinterest in sex is OK - only to then get married and complain or cheat when they aren't getting enough sex?

 

Why do men think that an orgy or fmf threesome is the hottest thing in the world?

 

Why do single men take women out on dates, buy them gifts, and treat them nicely if he's not really willing to invest the time to get to know her...and then resent her for his own impatience?

 

Why do men blame the lady for dragging things out - when men have the ability to find a woman who is more suited to his sexual speed and appetite?

 

Why do single men need to conquer women - adding one more notch in their bedpost?

 

See how easily that all can get turned around? As a woman who has been single - and married - and now happily in a relationship - I can tell you men chase us, get creepy, want to jump right into sex, hurt us emotionally, and then call us bitches or gold diggers when we want to wait to form a bond before sex.

 

 

These are sweeping generalizations of single men.

 

You missed the point of what angelkin was doing...it was showing you what you were doing but in reverse.

 

All men would rather have the smart chick who dates them.

 

Wrong. Not all men. There are men out there that don't want the "smart chick". Some only want beauty. Some want one they can dominate. Some want one that isn't smart. The list can go on. Who is generalizing now?

 

But why do I care if some idiot chick dates a jerk? First of all, I care because I hate to see women hurt, being the respectful caring male that I am.

 

It's great that you have this caring heart but not all women want to be saved, nor is it up to you to save the "damsel in distress". It is up to the woman to really save herself...to wake up one day and realize that if she's in a bad situation, she deserves better, and to find a way out of it. All you can do is to be positive, supportive, and encouraging to those women in your life.

 

But for some single women, it does not seem to matter what their intelligent female or male friends tell them about how they should think for themselves, realize that sex is NOT a bad thing, not to believe the popular media, and not to believe their stupid male or female friends. It’s not until they get married or are in a stable relationship that they realize these things, and that is the reason for my question.

 

It's quite possible that many of the women who get married and find the ability to be more open about sex and their sexuality is because their husbands were the positive, supportive, and encouraging man that I was talking about above. There is an intimate trust that Glida mentioned that a lot of women may not find until they are married and it may possibly take years for the level of trust to build up due to shared life experiences that married couples go through. Couples who have been with each other for decades are surely seen their share of good and bad and were able to work through each of them and stay together.

 

So, you’re saying that a woman has to get married in order to learn how to be caring, sharing, and intimate, even with other partners than her husband?

 

It doesn't take marriage. It takes a good chunk of time for anyone to come to terms of their desires and fantasies. Realize that they aren't shameful. Understand that this person that has seen them at the best and worst in life won't run away when she confides about her sexual thoughts.

 

Singles, men and women, might not have that supportive person in their lives to turn to.

 

 

I can be sitting on a bar stool, looking around, and see a woman turn down several men who seem decent and upstanding, then leave with a dirty biker.

 

How do you know that those men who "seem decent and upstanding" are really great men inside? Maybe they aren't. And just because someone is a "dirty biker" doesn't mean that they are a "bad apple". Don't judge someone from how they appear on the outside.

 

Also, there are women out there that are attracted to "bad boys". That's their prerogative...it's not your duty to police who is attracted to who.

 

Ladies, I'm sure you all at one time have owned the shoulder that was cried on by a vanilla female friend who got mixed up with a jerk, so you know what I mean, also.

 

For all those ladies who get mixed up with a jerk...that's called a life experience to learn from. Sometimes all it takes is once to learn from it. For others, it may take more than once or they might never learn from it. It's something they have to learn. It's like that quote, "You can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink it."

 

 

As for why many members think you want to know how to pick up women or think that you have a "hatred" for women it's because your thread reeks of, "Why do women pick the 'bad dirty bikers' and not 'decent, upstanding' men like myself? How can I show them the light that they don't have to stay in the darkness about their sexual needs and wants??"

[GoldCoCouple 4,063]

Keeping in mind that a VERY SMALL portion of the general public ever even consider getting involved in the LS, you are making way too broad of a statement.

 

Why do women do what they do? There are millions of men that would love to know this answer. This reminds me of a joke:

 

 

A man walking along a California beach was deep in prayer. All of a sudden, he said out loud, "Lord, grant me one wish." The sunny California sky clouded above his head and in a booming voice, and the Lord said, "Because you have tried to be faithful to me in all ways, I will grant you one wish." The man said, "Build a bridge to Hawaii so I can drive over anytime I want." The Lord said, "Your request is very materialistic. Think of the enormous challenges for that kind of undertaking. The supports required to reach the bottom of the Pacific! The concrete and steel it would take over thousands of miles! I can do it, but it is hard for me to justify your desire for worldly things. Take a little more time and think of another wish, a wish you think would honor and glorify me."

 

The man thought about it for a long time. Finally he said, "Lord, I wish that I could understand women. I want to know how they feel inside, what they are thinking when they give the silent treatment, why they cry, what they mean when they say " nothing!", and how I can make a woman truly happy."

 

The Lord replied, "You want two lanes or four lanes on that bridge!

 

 

Society teaches us that women who act a certain way are bad...easy, sluts, tramps, whores, etc. As a result, women try hard not to act like that.

 

Mostly, and I'm speaking VERY generally, lots of women find 'bad boys' attractive because they are bad...unattainable, a challenge. There was a woman comedian I saw once. She walked out on the stage and the first thing she said was 'all men are pigs!'. She spent the next 15 minutes giving examples of how all men are pigs (to the great amusement of the women). She then wraps things up by saying '...and all women have shit for brains!'. She explains that all women KNOW that all men are pigs...but maybe this one is different. Eventually they find out that this man is also a pig and they end up saying 'what wrong with me, I must have shit for brains!'. Don't remember who she was but she was very funny.

 

In order to be successful in the LS, most people have a very healthy, honest, open relationship that allows both people open up their inner feelings, desires and wishes. This allows couples to look at and investigate those desires in a safe and secure way.

[tribbles 490]

Maybe bad boys are more appealing because they don't consider women sluts for doing what many men do....sleeping around.

[SwingAcademic 22]

>>Originally Posted by SwingAcademic

 

Obviously, I have witnessed and experienced women doing the things in the list, otherwise I would not know they did them. My post is less of a complaint than simply asking “why?”

 

There are a lot of reasons why, some that can be surmised and some that cannot. You have to understand that they cannot all be unraveled because human beings are complex. Some are self aware of why they behave a certain way and others are not. It's great to ask why but this isn't a scientific forum where scientists can conduct and collect information to give you the information you seek. All of the members here, swingers or not, can only share anecdotes of what they have experienced in their own lives.

 

I can certainly appreciate that this is not a scientific forum. I wish there were a forum that existed somewhere concerning human sexual behavior, including swinging, from a scientific perspective. But all a person can do is get anecdotes from people, which is why I'm here.

 

>>........Why do men blame the lady for dragging things out - when men have the ability to find a woman who is more suited to his sexual speed and appetite?

 

Why do single men need to conquer women - adding one more notch in their bedpost?

 

See how easily that all can get turned around? As a woman who has been single - and married - and now happily in a relationship - I can tell you men chase us, get creepy, want to jump right into sex, hurt us emotionally, and then call us bitches or gold diggers when we want to wait to form a bond before sex.

These are sweeping generalizations of single men.

 

You missed the point of what angelkin was doing...it was showing you what you were doing but in reverse.

 

No. I DO NOT do these things. People responding seem to think that because I am a single male, I do these things. I don't. Again, not all women do the things I listed, and not all single men do the things angelkin listed. but some do, and I'm trying to figure out why. I will say that women have an advantage, as they can much more easily pick and choose who they date or sleep with, yet some of them still go after the men who will ultimately hurt them.

 

>>Originally Posted by SwingAcademic

 

All men would rather have the smart chick who dates them.

 

Wrong. Not all men. There are men out there that don't want the "smart chick". Some only want beauty. Some want one they can dominate. Some want one that isn't smart. The list can go on. Who is generalizing now?

 

Oops. I left a couple words out of that sentence. It should have read, "All normal, respectful men would rather have the smart chick who dates them.

 

>>Originally Posted by SwingAcademic

 

But for some single women, it does not seem to matter what their intelligent female or male friends tell them about how they should think for themselves, realize that sex is NOT a bad thing, not to believe the popular media, and not to believe their stupid male or female friends. It’s not until they get married or are in a stable relationship that they realize these things, and that is the reason for my question.

 

It's quite possible that many of the women who get married and find the ability to be more open about sex and their sexuality is because their husbands were the positive, supportive, and encouraging man that I was talking about above. There is an intimate trust that Glida mentioned that a lot of women may not find until they are married and it may possibly take years for the level of trust to build up due to shared life experiences that married couples go through. Couples who have been with each other for decades are surely seen their share of good and bad and were able to work through each of them and stay together.

 

Best answer so far! And probably correct. Thank you!

 

>>As for why many members think you want to know how to pick up women or think that you have a "hatred" for women it's because your thread reeks of, "Why do women pick the 'bad dirty bikers' and not 'decent, upstanding' men like myself? How can I show them the light that they don't have to stay in the darkness about their sexual needs and wants??"

 

Well, my thread is actually about, "Why do too many single vanilla women pick the 'bad dirty bikers' and not 'decent, upstanding' men generally? Until they discover the Lifestyle, and that all changes?

 

And yes, what IS a good way to show women they don't need to be in the dark about their sexual needs and wants?

 

>>Keeping in mind that a VERY SMALL portion of the general public ever even consider getting involved in the LS, you are making way too broad of a statement.

 

It is true that very few people are in or would consider getting into the Lifestyle. Maybe, with the Internet, this will change.

[tribbles 490]

"Why do too many single vanilla women pick the 'bad dirty bikers' and not 'decent, upstanding' men generally? Until they discover the Lifestyle, and that all changes?

 

I've met more bikers in the lifestyle than I ever did anywhere else. You sure it changes?

[GoldCoCouple 4,063]

I do think that the internet is helping things change. No matter what you are in to, you can find others of a like mind on the internet. It used to be that if you wanted to meet other swingers, you needed to find someplace that had swinger magazines (X rated book store), buy one, and snail mail a response to someone else who PAID to place an ad in the back...and hope that they responded, and that you were all interested and attracted to each other, and were close enough to be able to meet, and could somehow arrange this meeting. Now there are dozens of websites where you can quickly contact 100's of others who live close by who are interested in meeting. Heck, there are TV shows dealing with swinging (granted it's PAY TV) and several cable shows about polyamory. Either we have it easier than it's ever been to connect with others...or we just all have too much time on our hands.

[SwingAcademic 22]

I've met more bikers in the lifestyle than I ever did anywhere else. You sure it changes?

 

They can't be real bikers if that's the case. "Biker" and "Guy who owns and rides motorcycle" aren't the same thing.

 

Real bikers call their women "biker whores" or "bitches". They also sometimes use them as currency. Like when a biker trades his woman for a couple quarts of oil for his bike. They are definitely not the respectful males that women in the Lifestyle would want.

 

Back to the topic at hand:

 

I realize that not all swinging couples are married, but many are.

 

It appears from the posts that women need someone to hold their hand and support them before truly exploring their sexuality, and then becoming active in the Lifestyle, etc. Is this the case?

 

I cannot imagine the sex orgies of the late 1960s being couple-based, and whenever teenagers today get together at parties and hook-up, these are not couple-based either.

 

It just seems very odd to me that if you have a group of 100 horny adults, half male and half female, that they must first form into 50 couples before they can proceed to do what they want sexually. And what's even stranger is that, in the case of the majority of married couples, which makes up the majority of swinging couples, they took their vows making a promise that they wouldn't have sex with anyone else. Then afterwards, they proceed to do so, and at least in the case of women, maybe moreso than when they were single.

[MrDiscover 802]

I find your generalizations tiring and not very academic, for instance (to pick one of the many generalizations), I know a few 'bikers' (1% etc) and some have the same pov regarding women as I do. And some are assholes.

[sunbuckus 3,567]

Seeing as you are single, SwingAcademic, it doesn't surprise me that you have no clue as to the complexity of what swinging does for both the couple's relationship as well as the individuals within that relationship. I have always held the belief that the majority of single women and men have a much harder time understanding the couple dynamic that takes part in swinging unless they themselves had experienced prior to being a single in the LS.

 

Swinging isn't the epitome of sexuality but it does serve a purpose for those who want to safely have certain sexual experiences that they previously thought had to stay as "fantasies". I can only speak for myself but when I was much, much younger, I would entertain many types of fantasies, one of them being MFM threesomes and gangbangs. The only time I had heard of women actually engaging in such activities were in porn and I thought it was just something that only happened in porn or those who were rich and famous. The thought of someone normal, overweight, and average looking, like myself, engaging in such activities was preposterous.

 

As for your comments about "hand holding" and your stereotyping of "bikers"...please stop. It's offensive.

 

I believe you've had a few answers to your questions but you continue to dismiss them. Why is it so bad for women to want to explore their sexuality and fantasies later in life? Is it that hard for you to believe that a lot of women have to break out of certain religious, social, and economic constructs in order to determine that they can do what they want sexually? Perhaps this is a question you won't really understand unless you were reborn as a woman.

[cplnuswing 4,712]

And what's even stranger is that, in the case of the majority of married couples, which makes up the majority of swinging couples, they took their vows making a promise that they wouldn't have sex with anyone else. Then afterwards, they proceed to do so, and at least in the case of women, maybe moreso than when they were single.

 

It's been a long time, so I don't remember the vows word for word, but I'm confident the word "sex" wasn't in there anywhere. They were pretty much the standard traditional vows, so there may have been a "forsaking all others" somewhere in there, but we get to define what that means, not you or anyone else. That would be another example of the complexity spoken of above that I think you are missing.

[SwingAcademic 22]

>>I find your generalizations tiring and not very academic, for instance (to pick one of the many generalizations), I know a few 'bikers' (1% etc) and some have the same pov regarding women as I do. And some are assholes.

 

I’m trying not to make any generalizations here. I’m sure there are some decent bikers around, and some are in the Lifestyle. The difference here is that single vanilla women will, many times but NOT ALWAYS, go after the “asshole” biker, while the married woman in the Lifestyle will go for the decent respectable biker.

 

>>Seeing as you are single, SwingAcademic, it doesn't surprise me that you have no clue as to the complexity of what swinging does for both the couple's relationship as well as the individuals within that relationship. I have always held the belief that the majority of single women and men have a much harder time understanding the couple dynamic that takes part in swinging unless they themselves had experienced prior to being a single in the LS.

 

I certainly CAN understand how swinging can help a couple’s relationship. It would help anyone be a happier person, whether single or not. But you’re right--I’m not understanding the couple dynamic very well. My question is--why do women have to be part of a couple before they will swing?

 

>>I believe you've had a few answers to your questions but you continue to dismiss them.

 

People are answering questions I didn’t ask. Like “how to get women” or “why do women date jerks”, which is not my interest here.

 

>>Originally Posted by SwingAcademic

 

And what's even stranger is that, in the case of the majority of married couples, which makes up the majority of swinging couples, they took their vows making a promise that they wouldn't have sex with anyone else. Then afterwards, they proceed to do so, and at least in the case of women, maybe more so than when they were single.

 

It's been a long time, so I don't remember the vows word for word, but I'm confident the word "sex" wasn't in there anywhere. They were pretty much the standard traditional vows, so there may have been a "forsaking all others" somewhere in there, but we get to define what that means, not you or anyone else. That would be another example of the complexity spoken of above that I think you are missing.

 

The vows don’t specifically mention sex. But they do mention being faithful and forsaking all others, which normally means, “not having sex with others.”

 

“...and forsaking all others, be faithful to her/him as long as you both shall live?"

 

I seriously doubt that very many people in the Lifestyle got married with the intention of then going and having sex with others. It was most likely something they discovered they could do later.

 

>>Why is it so bad for women to want to explore their sexuality and fantasies later in life?

 

It isn’t. I believe they should do so earlier in life as well.

 

>>Swinging isn't the epitome of sexuality but it does serve a purpose for those who want to safely have certain sexual experiences that they previously thought had to stay as "fantasies". I can only speak for myself but when I was much, much younger, I would entertain many types of fantasies, one of them being MFM threesomes and gangbangs. The only time I had heard of women actually engaging in such activities were in porn and I thought it was just something that only happened in porn or those who were rich and famous. The thought of someone normal, overweight, and average looking, like myself, engaging in such activities was preposterous.

 

Is it that hard for you to believe that a lot of women have to break out of certain religious, social, and economic constructs in order to determine that they can do what they want sexually?

 

It is NOT difficult for me to understand that women need to break free of these constructs in order to determine what they can do sexually. It is not difficult for me to understand that single vanilla women have fantasies they don’t act on, because they think they’re not supposed to.

 

But what I’m not understanding is why it takes MARRIAGE or other couple-unit to break them out of these constructs and do what they want sexually. THAT is my question.

[MrDiscover 802]

>>I find your generalizations tiring and not very academic, for instance (to pick one of the many generalizations), I know a few 'bikers' (1% etc) and some have the same pov regarding women as I do. And some are assholes.

 

I’m trying not to make any generalizations here. I’m sure there are some decent bikers around, and some are in the Lifestyle. The difference here is that single vanilla women will, many times but NOT ALWAYS, go after the “asshole” biker, while the married woman in the Lifestyle will go for the decent respectable biker.

 

See? Now you are doing it again. You may try to not make any generalizations, but you fail in trying. In your view of this world, all (?) the married (?!) woman go for the decent biker.

 

Besides, you don't see the point I was making: why talk negatively about bikers? I honestly don't know why you brought that into the discussion but for me it underlines how you try to put everything of life in separate boxes. But I say this on this board many times per day: things are not always black and white.

[tribbles 490]

But what I’m not understanding is why it takes MARRIAGE or other couple-unit to break them out of these constructs and do what they want sexually. THAT is my question.

 

Society makes the box and someone the woman trusts can help her out of the box. Like many things in life, it's easier with a friends help.

 

Sure some women DO get out on their own....you just haven't met them.

[SwingAcademic 22]

Society makes the box and someone the woman trusts can help her out of the box. Like many things in life, it's easier with a friends help.

 

Sure some women DO get out on their own....you just haven't met them.

 

This is pretty much what I thought in the first place when I asked the question, but I wanted to ask, as I don't even pretend to be a know-it-all on this subject.

 

However, it still doesn't answer the question of why some single women will sleep with jerk males (That's SOME, not ALL), until they find the Lifestyle, and then they want the respectful men. Is it that having a respectful male by her side makes her then want respectful men?

[tribbles 490]

Maybe the answer to that is just 'she grew up'. Do you find those women sleeping with jerk men to be over 35 or is it a young female thing before they grow up?

[SwingAcademic 22]

Maybe the answer to that is just 'she grew up'. Do you find those women sleeping with jerk men to be over 35 or is it a young female thing before they grow up?

 

It's obvious that she grew up. But why did it take getting married or being in a serious couple unit to make her do so? This is the part I'm missing.

[PandO 103]

I think before you can understand an answer to your question, you have to really understand women. You're not there yet. You also seem to write off any answer people give you that you don't like. Let experience answer this question for you bc apparently no one here can.

[PandO 103]

It's obvious that she grew up.

 

OBVIOUS huh? How so? So all women who don't swing are immature and need to grow up? I think part of the problem with your question is you are assuming all women should or need to come to a point in their life where they are some enlightened swinger. I find that absurd.

[Lionheart72 2,189]

I'm having trouble understanding something. I've looked all over the Internet and in books, and cannot find an answer to this question:

 

When women are single, many times they do some or all of the following things:

...

 

Translation from Single Guy to English...

 

"1) A woman I like is dating a guy I don't like and won't date me.

2) I think I'm a gentleman but women don't.

3) Women won't jump into bed with me.

4) Women won't cheat on their boyfriends with me.

5) Women won't gave group sex with me.

6) Women don't have the kind of sex with me that I think they should want.

7) Women won't jump into bed with me, pt 2.

8) Women think I'm creepy.

9) Women won't jump into bed with me, pt 3.

10) Women won't jump into bed with me, pt 4.

 

Swinger women will just jump into bed with me, so swinger women must be smarter than regular women because I'm so great. Why can't more women be like swinger women?"

 

I have a hunch that the problem here isn't with the women.

[tribbles 490]

It's obvious that she grew up. But why did it take getting married or being in a serious couple unit to make her do so? This is the part I'm missing.

 

Look around. Not all women need to be in a srs couple unit to. Some manage it single. Why do more manage it married or in a LTR? cuz it's still the norm to hook up into couples in our culture and most of the worlds cultures. Men grow up too after they get in srs couple units more often than as singles cuz more humans hook up into couple units.

[SwingAcademic 22]

I think before you can understand an answer to your question, you have to really understand women. You're not there yet. You also seem to write off any answer people give you that you don't like. Let experience answer this question for you bc apparently no one here can.

 

How does someone understand the opposite gender unless he asks questions? Like I'm doing now?

 

The answers that people have given that I "don't like" are answers to questions I didn't even ask (like how to get women, etc.)

 

OBVIOUS huh? How so? So all women who don't swing are immature and need to grow up? I think part of the problem with your question is you are assuming all women should or need to come to a point in their life where they are some enlightened swinger. I find that absurd.

 

Yes, that IS pretty absurd. And also not what I believe at all. Everyone has their own tastes in sex, including just being with the one person they married for the rest of their life.

 

Translation from Single Guy to English...

 

1) A woman I like is dating a guy I don't like and won't date me.

2) I think I'm a gentleman but women don't.

3) Women won't jump into bed with me.

4) Women won't cheat on their boyfriends with me.

5) Women won't gave group sex with me.

6) Women don't have the kind of sex with me that I think they should want.

7) Women won't jump into bed with me, pt 2.

8) Women think I'm creepy.

9) Women won't jump into bed with me, pt 3.

10) Women won't jump into bed with me, pt 4.

 

Just how many damn times do I have to explain that this isn't about ME at all? Geeeeesh! I've heard complaints from gay men about hetero female friends they had who did stupid relationship things, and had to console them. Do you think any of these gay men fit into your 1-10 list above?

 

If a WOMAN said to you that she had a bunch of female friends who do the things I listed at the beginning of this thread, and she said that she herself doesn't do those things, and can't understand why her friends DO, what would you tell her?

 

Swinger women will just jump into bed with me, so swinger women must be smarter than regular women because I'm so great. Why can't more women be like swinger women?"

 

Swinger women won't just jump into bed with me, just like they won't just jump in bed with anybody else (although it may take a lot less time before they do.) There has to be some socializing and some chemistry there first. The last time I was at a swingers' club, I was there as a single male. No sex happened that night, but the swinger women were definitely better to socialize with, as they aren't all hung up about sex, or have their shields up the moment any man speaks to them or gets within a few feet of her, and appreciate a respectful person like myself. I still had a good time that evening.

 

Besides, if were true that I was here looking for advice on how to get women, and that swinger women would just jump in bed with me, well then, wouldn't the problem already be solved?

 

Look around. Not all women need to be in a srs couple unit to. Some manage it single. Why do more manage it married or in a LTR? cuz it's still the norm to hook up into couples in our culture and most of the worlds cultures. Men grow up too after they get in srs couple units more often than as singles cuz more humans hook up into couple units.

 

We may be getting somewhere here. Is it just that because this is the way it's been done for so many years, then this is the "right" way to do it? That it just has to be this way (becoming a serious couple first?), because that's what everyone else who wants to have multiple-partner sex does? The old, "That's the way it is, that's the way it's always been" school of thought?

[Lionheart72 2,189]

How does someone understand the opposite gender unless he asks questions?

 

By ceasing to think of women as aliens from another world and instead remembering that they are human beings, just like you.

[SwingAcademic 22]

By ceasing to think of women as aliens from another world and instead remembering that they are human beings, just like you.

 

Fair enough. But this still doesn't explain why most women think they need to become part of a couple before they can do what human beings, just like myself, actually do--which is to seek and enjoy sexual pleasure and friendship.

[GoldCoCouple 4,063]

Because they need to feel like they are safe...safe in a relationship, safe that they won't be hurt, safe that they will be protected, safe that they won't be judged.

[Lionheart72 2,189]

Fair enough. But this still doesn't explain why most women think they need to become part of a couple before they can do what human beings, just like myself, actually do--which is to seek and enjoy sexual pleasure and friendship.

 

That's rather like asking why most black guys are good a basketball... which is to say it's a totally inaccurate and prejudiced statement based entirely on false stereotypes.

[PandO 103]

Fair enough. But this still doesn't explain why most women think they need to become part of a couple before they can do what human beings, just like myself, actually do--which is to seek and enjoy sexual pleasure and friendship.

 

You are not going to get an answer here. You will get a few people's opinion. To find a real answer you might want to check out the academic work on the subject. For the most part we are not academic researchers here with all the answers. ��

 

O

[econobiker 165]

"Why is it that women change their tune about sex so hard only AFTER they get married and get into the Lifestyle?"

Swinging Acedemic,

I think you've misidentified the constituent group to whom your questions should be presented. You need to find some of those "unicorns" single adult females in the LS who have consciously made their own personal decision to pursue it- not based on an exboyfriend or exhusband wanting to pursue the LS.

 

I think you'd find some interesting answers from the single female swingers. I know myself heard some interesting answers from talking to my wife Red because she was in the LS 6-8 years as a single woman before she met me. (I was in the LS ~officially~ one hour before I met her! I guess I was fresh meat!)

[SwingAcademic 22]

"Why is it that women change their tune about sex so hard only AFTER they get married and get into the Lifestyle?"

Swinging Acedemic,

I think you've misidentified the constituent group to whom your questions should be presented. You need to find some of those "unicorns" single adult females in the LS who have consciously made their own personal decision to pursue it- not based on an exboyfriend or exhusband wanting to pursue the LS.

 

What kinds of things did she tell you?

I think you'd find some interesting answers from the single female swingers. I know myself heard some interesting answers from talking to my wife Red because she was in the LS 6-8 years as a single woman before she met me. (I was in the LS ~officially~ one hour before I met her! I guess I was fresh meat!)

 

What kinds of things did she tell you?

[GoldCoCouple 4,063]

Hummm, now I'm curious to hear what your wife has to say. Unicorns are rare enough to start with...it would be nice to hear from one about her adventures and originally her interest in becoming one.

 

(Trying to turn this thread into something more productive)

[econobiker 165]

Ok, point taken. I will not speak for her but relay the themes as I remember her telling them to me.

She's both very conservative (political) and open minded (sexual), fiercely independent having lived for 20+ years by herself and fiercely private about any swinging activity. (I'll probably get my ass kicked when she finds out about this posting. )

 

Shes from a completely intact family- mother/father she of 3 siblings, + 1 older half sibling, as it was the father's second family (as I understand his first wife was a deep alcoholic.) Engaged twice- first fiance hit her and she immediately left, the other came out as gay and left before they had much planning done for the wedding. Even when engaged, she didn't live with the men, which includes when we later got engaged.

 

She's been on phone chat lines (in those pre-internet days), then AOL "chat rooms" where she met people from the local area who invited her to meet and greets and hotel parties and then a swinger club. The area she lived in at the time was close to a military base so never a problem with having younger couples "away from home" for the first time ready to party because, bluntly, you might die on your next deployment. She had met single men, single women, and couples over the years before I met her through swinging friends of hers/ours who host house parties.

 

She is more of a hostess and voyeur than participant in the recent years somewhat due to her body image -she is a smaller BBW with a unique body shape- she still has many men pursue her at parties- She does play in private when comfortable with the people.

 

Will update after I think more about this and discuss with her. She's not a big writer about anything- swinging or vanilla -so I can't say that she'd actually post answers to here. Red is not very introspective and willing to "examine her own navel", more of a no-bullshit, honest woman. She is feminine and likes pretty things, but is down to earth and not high maintenance- she trolls thrift stores for deals on clothing, furniture, etc.

[GoldCoCouple 4,063]

Sounds like she is one heck of a woman. I still hope to hear more about her and her adventures (and hope that your ass remains unkicked). Thank you for taking this 'risk' in posting what you have.

[econobiker 165]

Was at a swinger's event tonight kicking back chilling with others. The subject of how women got into swinging came up. Of course many were at the lead of boyfriends and husbands but one interesting comment came up. The host woman talked about being honest that she "knew" she never ever wanted sex with just one person but didn't know about the lifestyle at the time. She said that sexual monogmy was just not for her. When she came to this realization, she had been single for many years after a tradtional vanilla marraige had ended in divorce.She said she later kicked one boyfriend to the curb who wouldn't even entertain a MFF threesome with a woman they met at a vanilla bar who was into them both because he was "jealous of any other person touching her". This woman eventually met a guy (who had swung with his ex-wife) who asked her what her greatest fantasy was. She confessed that her greatest fantasy was having sex with other people. He said essentially "That can easily happen!" And they attended one of the house parties cohosted by Red and I- this being around 2007. Her description was something like "being a kid in a candy shop with your parent's credit card able to buy everything!" This woman loved, LOVED the lifestyle enough to now host her (and her now husband- of course she married that guy!) own parties!

I thought that this was a good brief example of one "single" woman's attitude about the lifestyle and getting into it.

And they throw a kick ass party too!At one point, I was one of about 24 mostly naked people in their pool!

[GoldCoCouple 4,063]

Would NOT use parents credit cards in this candy shop...don't want to explain why I was buying candy 'there'...

[econobiker 165]

And the shapes of those chocolate and vanilla candies -those definitely aren't your father's chocolate Easter bunnies!

[Glida 250]

But what I’m not understanding is why it takes MARRIAGE or other couple-unit to break them out of these constructs and do what they want sexually. THAT is my question.

Sleeping with another guy when you have been married for 12 years is just a fantacy, it's forbidden fruit...I wanted someone elses hands of me! This was a fantacy, a stranger. luckily Mr G had a similar fantacy of having his hands on another lady. We were in luck so far. Then one day probably just before during or after sex, it came up...we wanted to experience other people. This alone made things very steamy in the bedroom!

 

Fast forward 6 months after a lot of talking, sharing, fantacising and becoming more aware myself of what I actually wanted sextually, I'm sitting accross a bar table from some guy, flirting and drinking while Mr G is sitting next to me with his eyes all over his wife. And I get to say Yes or No. I get to choose...Do I want to take this guy to a dirty hotel room somewhere and watch Mr G bang his wife while he goes down on me? Or do I want to go home to my bed and let Mr G do whatever he likes to me? There's no competition! I already have the prize! No 'biker'(I don't think you've met a real one)...or jerk is coming anywhere near me...unless I want them to. For nothing more than just sex. They are a condiment not the main course, they are the fantacy!

 

When I was single however if I had gone home with the jerk (which is only your opinion) then it would have probably been because I was looking for sex to satisfy any number of things or even to feel loved, adored, wanted, desired, controlled, dominant, used, disrespected, for me the list is endless. If I was feeling dominant then a Jerk might do the job! You can never judge attraction. Sexual desire itself and what we are compelled to is extremely complex. Also when you have nothing you'll settle for less. When you have the prize already you become a little more selective!

[JAPrufrock 588]

So, can I just say that everyone's responses in this particular thread are awesome? This forum has some really amazing members, with really spot-on insight.

 

I have no experience swinging yet, but for what it's worth, I think a lot of women don't just jump into the LS because we're taught, from an early age, that libido belongs to men. That women aren't supposed to be horny; we're supposed to be the ones receiving advances, not making them.

 

I distinctly remember a conversation I had with my best friend in high school. We had drunk a bottle of cheap wine and started talking about sexuality. We were both surprised to find out that we started getting horny and masturbating around the same time (around 4-5th grade), and that we both felt shame for it. It's hard to explain, we didn't necessarily feel shame for masturbating, we felt shame because we thought it was something that, as girls, we weren't supposed to do. We were taught that boys get horny. Boys are the ones that look at porn and masturbate and girls just don't do that. I have had variations of this same conversation with so many women in my life.

 

I can't tell you how long it took me to get over the idea that women feel just as horny as men do, that it's normal, and it's healthy.