Open Relationships - "Expert" Advice!

[intuition897 2,179]

This relationship expert talks about swingers/polys/etc. desperately trying to "sell" their brand of marriage to validate a lifestyle they know in their innermost soul...is just wrong. You can read all about it in section 2 of her book, Dr. Karen's Marriage Manual. Signed copies are available if you purchase directly through her website.

 

HOLD me back, people. I've got a whopper of a post on stand-by and I'm going to sleep on it before unleashing hell. Holy shit. I just checked the word count. Gonna have to pare that down a little...

 

Non-Monogamy, Polyamory, Swinging- A Relationship Expert's View

[sunbuckus 3,567]

Knowing how eloquent you are when you rant, I say, "Let her rip!"

[intuition897 2,179]

This chick is condescending, patronizing, snooty and gets all calm and professional-like when someone's argument gets at all heated. I've taken a less offensive tack...although I had to count to ten. It just really frosts my cookies when someone in a position of authority waves their little piece of paper around, claiming to be an expert in her field, when she has proven beyond any shadow of a doubt that she knows nothing about the subject she's preaching about.

[sunbuckus 3,567]

I glanced at the comments and noticed how she praised those who agreed with her and dismissed those that opposed her without even giving their opinion some thought. I didn't want to get riled up so I didn't read too much.

[intuition897 2,179]

I glanced at the comments and noticed how she praised those who agreed with her and dismissed those that opposed her without even giving their opinion some thought. I didn't want to get riled up so I didn't read too much.

 

"Wherefore is there a price in the hand of a fool to buy wisdom, Seeing he hath no understanding?" ~Proverbs 17:16

 

In other words, a bought-and-paid-for PhD is completely wasted on those who can't discern the difference between education and wisdom.

 

EDIT:

See also Proverbs 26:4 - "Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him." (Don't take the troll bait)

 

And Proverbs 23:9 - "Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words." (Don't bother beating a dead horse)

 

And finally, Proverbs 15:12 - "The arrogant mocker never loves the one who corrects him; he will not inquire of the wise." In other words, "Dr. Karen" will not appreciate anyone fucking with her deeply-held world-view, and will continue to cherry-pick where she sees fit.

[JAPrufrock 588]

I didn't read the whole thing. In truth, I am a bit terrified that swinging will change our marriage, and not for the better. I think that is one of the reasons we haven't had any actual experiences with other people yet.

 

At the same time, this lady only sees people who are having issues in their relationship. Let's be honest here, they likely would have ended up seeing her whether or not swinging was involved, perhaps swinging just sped things up. Relationships are hard. They take work and a good amount of putting someone else before yourself. This board has taught me so much about relationships and what it means to truly want your spouse to be happy. Putting each other in a box and labeling it 'mine' isn't necessarily the path to happiness; just look at the overall divorce rates.

 

This lady only talks about one side of the coin, she's never seen the other side (swinging couples who are successful so they don't require her 'expertise') so of course, the other side doesn't exist to her. It would be interesting to see what she has to say to all of us, although she probably wouldn't talk to us heathens.

 

EDIT: 'frosts my cookies' is the best phrase ever.

[cplnuswing 4,712]

Meh, just another talking head flapping their gums to get a paycheck. Like those who pay the bills being an "expert witness" in a trial...cut me a check and let me know which side to take to make sure I don't get it confused with the position I'm supposed to take for my other paying clients. I won't question that she does indeed have a practice, but looking over the bio and website, seems to be quite a bit of self-promotion regarding media appearances and speaking engagements.

 

Dr. Phil wannabe. Seeing how I have zero interest in anything Dr. Phil or any other paid entertainer (because that's really what they are) says, then the same goes for her.

[intuition897 2,179]

...this lady only sees people who are having issues in their relationship.

 

Yeah, a few people actually called her on that.

 

Putting each other in a box and labeling it 'mine' isn't necessarily the path to happiness; just look at the overall divorce rates.

 

Love this.

 

This lady only talks about one side of the coin, she's never seen the other side (swinging couples who are successful so they don't require her 'expertise') so of course, the other side doesn't exist to her. It would be interesting to see what she has to say to all of us, although she probably wouldn't talk to us heathens.

 

Or if she did come to talk to us, it would be to preach the good word and show us the error of our ways. LOL I wish her luck. She's one of those people who is always right, regardless of what you say, because she cherry-picks and twists the facts to suit her argument.

 

Dammit, I wrote that big long post and I'm realizing how pointless it is to post it there.

[intuition897 2,179]

I won't question that she does indeed have a practice, but looking over the bio and website, seems to be quite a bit of self-promotion regarding media appearances and speaking engagements.

 

Dr. Phil wannabe.

 

Yup. I just hate that people are actually buying her bullshit.

[Lionheart72 2,189]

Ok, obviously she is an arrogant, condescending jerk...

 

but...

 

How many times have couples come to this board asking for advice about using swinging to fix their marriage, or using swinging to cope with serial cheating, or who want to "spice up their marriage." How many of those couples leave here with the advice "Swinging doesn't fix a marriage, magnifies the cracks in a relationship" or "Cheating isn't swinging, swinging won't fix cheating" or "It sounds like you aren't yet in a place in your relationship where this is a good idea for you."

 

Yes, she is generalizing from that is say that swinging/non-monogamy can't work... and in that many of us can clearly prove her wrong. However, from the experiences she cites in her article, the couples she has dealt with bear out our own oft voiced warnings. Yeah, we're more positive about the idea of swinging because we've seen it work (and because we're generally not arrogant, condescending jerks) but I can still hear the distant echoes of my own words in her strident rhetoric.

[intuition897 2,179]

The trouble is that she bases her conclusions on a self-selected sample group: people who have FUBAR'ed their relationship by trying swinging when they had no business doing so. She doesn't ever see successful couples in her practice, because they don't need her help. And even if they do go to her for some other problem, they likely don't bother mentioning their lifestyle choices because they aren't relevant to the problem. If they did, I'm sure every problem would stem from it according to the good doctor.

[intuition897 2,179]

So here's the revised (having slept on it) version of my post. Haven't posted it yet, just want to see if anyone had any suggested edits.

 

Dear Dr. Ruskin,

 

I'm afraid you have made the mistake of assuming your clients represent the full spectrum of people in non-monogamous lifestyles. The only ones upon whom you have based your conclusions, are those who have experienced problems incorporating non-monogamy into their relationship in a healthy way. You aren't seeing the sizable number of couples who HAVE been successful, because they don't land on your doorstep, needing help. Using words like 'never' and 'always' in your conclusions is unwise if you haven't taken the time to explore the possibility of their being untrue.

 

I am quite certain you've seen your share of people in your over 18 years of practice who have made the mistake of opening Pandora's Box without having first made sure their relationship's foundation was rock solid. In addition to having unhealthy relationships, most people are culturally, mentally and emotionally geared toward monogamy. For those people, even if their relationship is A+, it is indeed dangerous to explore beyond their fences. Like yourself, we, too, have advised many couples to quit playing with matches or they would eventually pay the price.

 

There are, however, many individuals and couples out there who actually are much happier in non-monogamous relationships. Genuinely happier. More balanced, feeling truer to themselves, and enjoying a loving, deeply fulfilling (both physically and emotionally), fully honest relationship with their spouse. The dynamics of these relationships are very complex and would, I'm sure, be of interest to you as a relationship expert.

 

This is not a matter of the relationship, personality or character being flawed; it's simply the way some people are wired. My point is not to "sell" you anything, nor proselytize, as you suggested anyone who professes to be happy with non-monogamy was "desperately seeking validation". To be clear, we do not require anyone's validation; we just don't appreciate being labeled as delusional. I don't profess to be an expert at anything except my relationship, which we take very seriously, and my feathers get just as ruffled as yours do when someone tells me that I'm not. While I appreciate your concern, the underbelly of my soul harbours no guilt. My conscience - and my husband's - is clear, and we both sleep just fine at night.

 

Regards,

 

E. (the Mrs.)

 

(I felt it was important to add that it was the wife who was speaking up, not the "abusive, pushy, selfish" husband who "coerced" his wife into "degrading" herself. Ugh! The myths and stigma out there about this! It's revolting!)

[JAPrufrock 588]

Love it! Well written, thought-out, and with just a pinch of "suck it, lady!" so as not to raise too many heckles.

[MrDiscover 802]

I really really loved this part at the end of a sad thread under her article:

 

Quote

Dr. Karen- In this response, you say:

“Whether parents have many children or one child, it is all about the parenting not the quantity of children”

Thank you. As a happy practicing polyamorous person, I say…

“Whether people have many relationships or one relationship, it is all about the relationship not the quantity of connections”

Bam.

[MrDiscover 802]

Your comment is awaiting moderation

 

Well, after only a few sentences I feel I know the value of the advice. It seems ‘marriage’ is already established as the desirable form of a relationship. Throughout the whole article, this form of a relationship between adults is the only form discussed and all others are wrong (based on a biased selection, namely the patients of this doctor).

 

Then, browsing through the comments, I noticed how Dr. Ruskin uses phrases as ‘LOL’ and “ha ha, that is very funny” as replies on serious comments on her post and I know for sure how to value this whole article.

Will not survive the moderation, I presume, but at least I have it of my chest.

[intuition897 2,179]

There we go. Post submitted, awaiting moderation. Maybe it makes it to her forum - fully butchered - maybe it doesn't, but at least she'll have read it.

 

Conveying sarcasm is often difficult over the internet, but she does an admirable job of it. Such as: "Greater fulfillment, hmmm, so many are looking for greater fulfillment, aren’t we?" My spelling, punctuation and grammar are far from perfect, but I had to refrain from being the grammar police throughout her article and replies. It's me, not I. You don't need a question mark there, because it's not a question. Or there...or there. Oh I see, you're doing the internet-version of that little teenager-y head-rocking thing when they're being snarky little assholes to their parents.

[intuition897 2,179]

...with just a pinch of "suck it, lady!"

 

The first version had more than a pinch.

[intuition897 2,179]

Dr. Karen responded. And she misused the word 'whom'.

 

Haven't posted it yet, but here's my response to her comment:

 

Dear Dr. Ruskin,

 

You said, "When a relationship is truly and fully "rock solid", couples do not venture into [non-monogamy]."

 

I'm afraid I have to disagree. If I am paraphrasing you correctly, you are saying that a couple's foray into a non-monogamous lifestyle, be it polyamory, swinging, etc, is proof in and of itself that the couple's relationship must somehow be lacking.

 

This is false. Exploring non-monogamy is, for some couples, just a natural overflow of an already great love and sex life. They don't need to do it; they just don't need to NOT do it. It actually only works if the couple already has a really great relationship, highly effective communication skills, deep dedication to one another, unshakable trust, and a commitment to a level of honesty that, frankly, would make most people cringe. It requires that you reveal parts of yourself that you've been taught are bad, shameful, or even offensive to your partner, even though we have no control over whether or not we are attracted to others (feeling attracted is what bodies do...it's kind of their thing). Being this honest means making yourself extremely vulnerable to one another, and trusting that your partner will still love, accept and choose to be with you. The lifestyle couples we've gotten to know are lovestruck with one another, hold hands in public, probably gross their kids out because they still kiss and hug each other like they really mean it, and they have a relaxed way about them because they no longer have to contend with jealousy.

 

Are there couples for whom your statement is true? Absolutely. Probably the vast majority of them. These are the couples who venture into swinging or poly lifestyles from a place of want, instead of a place of plenty, thinking they can fix what is broken with it. In truth, these lifestyles are a magnifying glass that magnify whatever you put under it, good or bad. If there are cracks or flaws anywhere, it'll split them wide open. If you're not prepared to tear your marriage down to bedrock and start over again, just forget about it and walk away. It's not for you.

 

Unfortunately, I can't speak to polyamory; my husband and I are swingers, and we do not develop long-term romantic relationships with our partners (it was discussed, but neither of us were interested in it). We have been in the lifestyle since about 2003. If we ever decide to go our separate ways (although I can't imagine that happening, aside from death), it certainly won't be over something as stupid as sex. The only non-negotiable thing in our relationship is honesty. Everything else is open for discussion.

 

---

Is it just me, or am I bouncing my head off a brick wall? Is there any point in posting this?? Is there any hope she'll understand what I'm saying here? Or will she just continue to be evasive and snooty to cover up that her understanding of relationship dynamics is about as deep as a mud puddle, and she has zero interest in deepening said understanding?

[Lionheart72 2,189]

Is it just me, or am I bouncing my head off a brick wall? Is there any point in posting this?? Is there any hope she'll understand what I'm saying here? Or will she just continue to be evasive and snooty to cover up that her understanding of relationship dynamics is about as deep as a mud puddle, and she has zero interest in deepening said understanding?

 

If your goal is to convince her, yes you are absolutely bouncing your head off a brick wall. Based solely on what I've read of her from this article, she will choose to ignore, misunderstand or simply dogmatically disagree with your point. She will likely respond that you have simply failed to yet recognize the flaws in your relationship which have led to this unhealthy behavior which will in time destroy you.

 

So is there any point in posting this? Hell yes! You aren't going to convince her but you are educating everyone else who is reading these comments and if even one person among them is informed or even enlightened by your post, you have done them a good service.

[intuition897 2,179]

If no one has any suggested edits, I'll go ahead and post it. Hopefully the thinkers will know enough to extricate themselves from her herd of sheeple and think things through for themselves. And for the rest of them... Well... You can't save 'em all, Hasselhoff.

[Fundamental Law 2,882]

intuition897 said:

Is it just me, or am I bouncing my head off a brick wall? Is there any point in posting this?? Is there any hope she'll understand what I'm saying here? Or will she just continue to be evasive and snooty to cover up that her understanding of relationship dynamics is about as deep as a mud puddle, and she has zero interest in deepening said understanding?

 

Some years back, some colleagues wrote down some pretty good rules. (Search on Ten Pretty Good Rules, you'll find them.) Among them were the following:

 

***Never wrestle with a pig, you both get dirty and the pig likes it.

 

***Never argue with an idiot. People watching might not be able to tell the difference.

 

Dr. Karen has an earned degree and she is free to practice -- and preach -- as she chooses. You will not sway her beliefs, nor will she sway yours. You speak from experience, N = 1 couple. Hers includes at least her clients -- but we are blind to her personal experience.

 

There is a synthesis, however. On some level both Dr. Karen and those who are posting in response to her screed agree that marriage is about growth of the partners and their partnership. She views non-monogamy as a symptom and a threat. We see certain types of non-monogamy as an expression of trust and mutual support. Depending on the marriage, it can probably be either. It is unlikely to be both.

 

I suspect we all know couples-- vanilla and LS alike -- whose work within their marriage failed and they split. I imagine we might agree with Dr. Karen that making a successful marriage work and helping it grow is not easy. Unhealthy behavior takes many forms.

 

I'm willing to bet that every person who is responding to his thread has said -- sometime in the past 24 hours -- something that conveys "My spouse, you are the most important person in my life, we are a team, inseparable,...". People who end up in Dr. Karen's office are not saying that, feeling that, nourishing that idea.

[kikonkrome 843]

So I just saw this, go get'em intuition897. You rock!!

 

The sad fact is mainstream counselor's with no real evidence to back them up besides the 'moral majority' all preach exactly what 'Dr. Karen' is preaching. I am really not a huge fan of 'marriage counselors' and relationship counselors in general.

 

Still I appreciate your effort in disarming the loaded gun this 'Dr.' brings to bear.

[ZoDee 81]

kikonkrome said:

So I just saw this, go get'em intuition897. You rock!!

 

Similar situation here, I've just read this too.

Just think Miss Karen has more than an opinion,

She believes she is right.

 

10 point to you for you response!

Just love it!

 

Cheers from Aus.

[Mbgdallas 203]

I am in the middle of another discussion on another board where people actually think it is good for the wife to cheat, degrade, humiliate, and emasculate their husband. Which I could actually say this to them.