Playmates aren't my equal

[benawyl 35]

My husband and I have found a pretty regular MFM playmate, and for some unknown reason, my husband doesn't want me to kiss him. I don't get it. To me it's the most benign of the things we do with this guy, believe me it IS the most benign thing we do, but he's told me he will stop altogether if I ever kiss him again?! Is there a reason my husband is this way? It just seems strange, and for me, kissing is what gets me going, if you know what I mean. I don't attach intimacy to it or anything like that. It's just another fun thing to enhance the experience and nothing gets my panties wetter than hot kisses from 2 different hot guys, but I feel like he thinks it's some kind of "relationship thing" that attaches some kind of intimacy to my interactions with the other guy. I'm very confused about this, especially since my husband won't kiss me after I've done particular things, but our third will, so it's nice to have that option when my husband is "icked out" for lack of a better phrase. I love to kiss. I feel like this is his dealbreaker, but I also feel like it's kind of my dealbreaker too. I hate to think he feels he can't trust me. We've been together for 14 years, and I would never cheat on him. I didn't bring up swinging, either. He did. I would never have considered it were it not for his influence. Don't get me wrong. I'm glad he did, because it's been great, but I feel like this "no kissing" rule is some kind of commentary on his trust level with me. Does he distrust me, or has he just watched Pretty Woman one too many times lol... Any advice I could get would be greatly appreciated because I am flummoxed by this one. Before you tell me to communicate with him, I have. He just replies that he doesn't like it and that's all I need to know, that I should just take it at face value. Basically, he just shuts down when I try to figure out where his head is. He doesn't seem to suffer any other conflicts other than that when we participate in multiple partner sex, so I guess I just wonder if maybe anyone else has this rule or if they know why this rule would be so important to him since he won't divulge his reasoning to me about it.

 

Sometimes men just want some things saved for them and them alone.

 

For me it's no bare play of any type including hand jobs and no anal.

 

Why should extras be allowed everything I am? That just puts me on the same level as them.

[couplers 4,718]

...

Why should extras be allowed everything I am? That just puts me on the same level as them.

 

Am I the only one here that respectfully disagrees with this philosophy?

[couplers 4,718]

... For me it's no bare play of any type including hand jobs and no anal...

 

Interesting, how people can hold totally opposite views. I've had sex (all bare) with four guys in my life (I'm living with two of them now, and two women) and the only guy I haven't had anal sex with is my husband. He's not interested in anal with anyone, and I think he's too big around to go into my bum. In my mind that is the reason to play and allow your spouse to play - to experience things one otherwise wouldn't.

[funcoupledayton 2,708]

Am I the only one here that respectfully disagrees with this philosophy?

 

I disagree also. Initially, I had said I wouldn't wouldn't do anal with anyone but my husband. I said that because I didn't think I would want to or trust someone else. One night we were playing with a couple and it happened and went very well.

 

Afterward, my husband said, "I thought you said you wouldn't do anal with anyone else?" I explained that things were going well and I wanted to. I think he felt a little hurt and thought it was a rule. But, what he said was, "It's your body, you can do what you want."

 

I am extremely grateful that my husband felt that way. One of the things I love best about swinging is the freedom I experience. I would not like it at all if my husband told me I had to limit my repertoire so he was the only one who got something sexual. He is special because we are married, have a family, love and commitment.

[Mbgdallas 203]

I disagree also. Initially, I had said I wouldn't wouldn't do anal with anyone but my husband. I said that because I didn't think I would want to or trust someone else. One night we were playing with a couple and it happened and went very well.

 

Afterward, my husband said, "I thought you said you wouldn't do anal with anyone else?" I explained that things were going well and I wanted to. I think he felt a little hurt and thought it was a rule. But, what he said was, "It's your body, you can do what you want."

 

I am extremely grateful that my husband felt that way. One of the things I love best about swinging is the freedom I experience. I would not like it at all if my husband told me I had to limit my repertoire so he was the only one who got something sexual. He is special because we are married, have a family, love and commitment.

 

So I don't have any experience swinging and what I am about to say is only my opinion based upon what I can read in these very few paragraphs. If there is more I apologize. I think it is important to clarify. I think you broke trust with your husband. You had a rule and you broke it. Your husband had every right to be hurt and you owed him an apology. I hope there was more to this story than what little you are giving us. It looks like it all worked out in the end but I think that was a very dangerous thing to do without discussing it first.

 

Also, I think it is not up to us to agree or disagree... It is up to each individual couple as to what they want to do. Part of me can see having things reserved only for me but I can also agree with your love and commitment comment that that is what remains special. One thing I would say is an absolute no no would be to do things for your play partner that you won't do for your spouse.

[benawyl 35]

Interesting, how people can hold totally opposite views. I've had sex (all bare) with four guys in my life (I'm living with two of them now, and two women) and the only guy I haven't had anal sex with is my husband. He's not interested in anal with anyone, and I think he's too big around to go into my bum. In my mind that is the reason to play and allow your spouse to play - to experience things one otherwise wouldn't.

 

Well there's really nothing that she can't experience with me. There aren't any acts that she wants or has asked for that I refuse to do with her.

 

And yes I'm sorry but fuckbuddies shouldn't get as good or better sex than me.

 

Condoms are a dealbreaker. If another guy is allowed to cum in her I leave the next day. No discussion.

[Mbgdallas 203]

So I don't have any experience swinging and what I am about to say is only my opinion based upon what I can read in these very few paragraphs. If there is more I apologize. I think it is important to clarify. I think you broke trust with your husband. You had a rule and you broke it. Your husband had every right to be hurt and you owed him an apology. I hope there was more to this story than what little you are giving us. It looks like it all worked out in the end but I think that was a very dangerous thing to do without discussing it first.

 

Also, I think it is not up to us to agree or disagree... It is up to each individual couple as to what they want to do. Part of me can see having things reserved only for me but I can also agree with your love and commitment comment that that is what remains special. One thing I would say is an absolute no no would be to do things for your play partner that you won't do for your spouse.

 

So I want to clarify this and since I cannot edit it I do so in another post.

 

My statement sounds like a judgement of the situation in the light of day this morning. It is not meant to be. It is a meant to be a statement and then a question about how I perceive the issue as described. What is there that is not stated in your post that would change the perception etc etc etc. Why, if the perception is correct, does it not create a problem.

 

The open/honesty aspect of the LS is one of the most intriguing aspects of the LS that I had never considered before I came here. It is also one that seems to be the hardest to deal with... To keep in the forefront. It would be so easy to think you are being honest about something until the situation actually happens. Then you find your TRUE FEELINGS about something after an event/action that could appear to be dishonest. How do you keep that from blowing up and making a mountain out of a mole hill? To me hurt feelings are hard to get over... And can sometimes seem childish... But are also very real and carry a lot a weight in the relationship. How do you get past this situation AFTER the fact?

 

I know that this is now way off topic so I apologize for that.

[GuyInMD79 1,500]

Interesting discussion, and I think this is fairly closely related to the topic of the thread.

 

The Mrs. and I have had several rules, limits, or non-preferences that have fallen by the wayside in the year-and-change we have been doing this. We have handled these in a variety of ways, some good and some less good- talking at the kitchen table, checking in in the heat of the moment to ask to relax a rule, and once in a while, just doing it and then talking it over later. The conversation is often not as pleasant when we do the "asking forgiveness rather than permission" thing...

 

But I think we understand the difference between the little things and the bigger things. For example, the Mrs. Did not like the idea of having a guy cumming in her mouth during a blowjob. She had an occasion during one multi-guy play session (I was not one of the guys! That was another topic for discussion), where she gave oral to a guy, "to completion". Now, I might have liked to get that treatment once in a while, and I had not brought it up in a long time because I thought she would not like it. I was surprised (and, if I'm being honest, a very little bit hurt at the time) to hear that she did this. That started a good conversation between us, feelings were aired and discussed, and a little while later we had a very hot time together where she gave me the same treatment! The lessons we learned from that are that 1) swinging is a great way to expand your sexual boundaries, 2) any new tricks learned during swinging play are not a threat or a reason to feel hurt or jealous; rather, they should be incorporated into our own play, and 3) don't sweat the small stuff!

 

The big things, we take more seriously of course. On the rare occasions when a rule that is very important to one of us has been broken, we have talked it over. This does create a problem, but we deal with it, usually constructively, and with an assumption of goodwill and non-hurtful intentions on both sides. The lesson we are learning from these kinds of occurrences is that we each, as human beings, are imperfect creatures, with biases and weaknesses. These imperfections don't mean that we love each other any less. And we understand that swinging is an activity where there is a constant danger of our imperfections being tested by opportunities for heat-of-the-moment bad decision making, as well as immature or irrational hurt feelings. So, understanding this, we try to give each other a little bit of a break!

[funcoupledayton 2,708]

Quote Originally Posted by funcoupledayton View Post

I disagree also. Initially, I had said I wouldn't wouldn't do anal with anyone but my husband. I said that because I didn't think I would want to or trust someone else. One night we were playing with a couple and it happened and went very well.

 

Afterward, my husband said, "I thought you said you wouldn't do anal with anyone else?" I explained that things were going well and I wanted to. I think he felt a little hurt and thought it was a rule. But, what he said was, "It's your body, you can do what you want."

 

I am extremely grateful that my husband felt that way. One of the things I love best about swinging is the freedom I experience. I would not like it at all if my husband told me I had to limit my repertoire so he was the only one who got something sexual. He is special because we are married, have a family, love and commitment.

 

So I don't have any experience swinging and what I am about to say is only my opinion based upon what I can read in these very few paragraphs. If there is more I apologize. I think it is important to clarify. I think you broke trust with your husband. You had a rule and you broke it. Your husband had every right to be hurt and you owed him an apology. I hope there was more to this story than what little you are giving us. It looks like it all worked out in the end but I think that was a very dangerous thing to do without discussing it first.

 

So I want to clarify this and since I cannot edit it I do so in another post.

 

My statement sounds like a judgement of the situation in the light of day this morning. It is not meant to be. It is a meant to be a statement and then a question about how I perceive the issue as described. What is there that is not stated in your post that would change the perception etc etc etc. Why, if the perception is correct, does it not create a problem.

 

The open/honesty aspect of the LS is one of the most intriguing aspects of the LS that I had never considered before I came here. It is also one that seems to be the hardest to deal with... To keep in the forefront. It would be so easy to think you are being honest about something until the situation actually happens. Then you find your TRUE FEELINGS about something after an event/action that could appear to be dishonest. How do you keep that from blowing up and making a mountain out of a mole hill? To me hurt feelings are hard to get over... And can sometimes seem childish... But are also very real and carry a lot a weight in the relationship. How do you get past this situation AFTER the fact?

 

I know that this is now way off topic so I apologize for that.

 

So, I will try to expound to the best of my ability. First, my specific example detailing why I disagree with the premise that a spouse should have a specific act or body part reserved for them. The point I was making was that in my relationship, I don't need to apologize for letting someone fuck my ass. Our only rules starting were condoms and not getting involved in a love affair relationship (I told my husband, "I don't care what you do with other women, I just don't want you out mowing someone else's lawn, meaning that the only family he will take care of is ours. First we laughed a ton because mowing someones lawn sounded like a euphemism for cunnilingus. Later we laughed even more because the first people we encountered in swinging had a lawn care business.)

 

So while I had said I wouldn't do anal, it wasn't laid out by either of us as a rule. Like I said, I think my husband probably did feel a little bit bad and maybe did think it was a rule. But, as he said, "It's your body..." So I didn't need to apologize. I empathize and do my best to demonstrate that he is the most important, but I don't need to apologize.

 

Before you swing, it's a good idea to talk and game out a few different what if's. But, you don't know how it will be until you do it. Some of these what if's might turn out differently than you think. I don't feel these speculations are rules. Especially when they are not matters of safety and are really the prerogative of the individual since it is their body, things like kissing, hand jobs, anal, being come on, etc.

 

I think one of the most important things to keep in mind if you are going to swing is that mistakes and slip ups will happen, intentionally or unintentionally. You need to agree that nothing will be a nuclear level event. Nothing that happens in one night can ruin a relationship that has been strong for years. Yes, something can hurt. Now, ongoing deception or falling in love don't generally happen in one night and that can ruin a relationship. But, breaking a kissing rule, a condom slipping or breaking, swallowing someone's come those things don't ruin a relationship.

 

We have a condom rule for good reason and take it seriously. We've been swinging for a long time. I can tell you at least four times that a condom has slipped off or broken when my husband has been playing. I have no suspicion at all about this, it happens. He came in someone else. Big deal, we get tested regularly, so do they, he has a vasectomy. We stay married, they stay married, we all play again another day. If I couldn't handle being married to someone if they came in someone else I wouldn't be swinging. Now if my husband intentionally didn't use condoms, that would be another story.

 

However, it's very dangerous to think if she "allows" someone else to come in her, we're done. A threat hanging over a rule is not a good way to go. I think you need to say, it's really important for us for safety reasons that we do our best to use condoms properly. If there is a slip up, you want her to tell you.

 

MGB

Also, I think it is not up to us to agree or disagree... It is up to each individual couple as to what they want to do. Part of me can see having things reserved only for me but I can also agree with your love and commitment comment that that is what remains special. One thing I would say is an absolute no no would be to do things for your play partner that you won't do for your spouse.

 

Since this is a forum the idea is to debate and share ideas, so we can be free to disagree. If we all agreed it would be boring.

 

For us, it's not an absolute no no to do something with a play partner you don't do with a spouse. I came with intercourse for the first time with a play partner and swallowed someone else's come. My husband does not begrudge me these experiences. They've made our sex life better.

[couplers 4,718]

... The big things, we take more seriously of course. On the rare occasions when a rule that is very important to one of us has been broken, we have talked it over. This does create a problem, but we deal with it, usually constructively, and with an assumption of goodwill and non-hurtful intentions on both sides...

 

What a great and mature attitude. Life doesn't always go according to plan, mistakes are made. Regroup, talk about it, adjust and move on. That's the way to treat the one you love, not by throwing a fit.

[Mbgdallas 203]

So while I had said I wouldn't do anal, it wasn't laid out by either of us as a rule. Like I said, I think my husband probably did feel a little bit bad and maybe did think it was a rule. But, as he said, "It's your body..." So I didn't need to apologize. I empathize and do my best to demonstrate that he is the most important, but I don't need to apologize.

 

Funcoupledayton. I see your point. It wasn't a rule and therefore all the pieces you discuss fall together.

 

I would add this however and it is all my opinion. I think a marriage is partnership which takes compromise. Each persons body belongs to them and the partner. Two become one. As such your husband may very well have the right to insist on no anal just as you have every right to insist that you will,do what you want. After discussion between two partners a decision must be made and both parties should abide by that decision. It sounds like you have a great partner who gives you the freedom to do what you want. That is great for you... It may not be good for someone else.

 

Lastly, I know rules are broken... Particularly in the heat of the moment. The question then focuses back on what couplers and coupleinMD79 said. And yes... Rules can change. My goodness... When I first married I NEVER would have accepted a nonmonogamous relationship. Now I would actively encourage my wife to take a lover if it fulfills her in a way hat I just cannot.

[benawyl 35]

What a great and mature attitude. Life doesn't always go according to plan, mistakes are made. Regroup, talk about it, adjust and move on. That's the way to treat the one you love, not by throwing a fit.

 

If you only have one hard and fast boundary and the other person breaks it then you are absolutely justified in leaving and or throwing a fit.

 

If you tell your partner ahead of time you do x and our relationship is over and they do x anyway you have no other option but to leave.

[couplers 4,718]

If you only have one hard and fast boundary and the other person breaks it then you are absolutely justified in leaving and or throwing a fit.

 

If you tell your partner ahead of time you do x and our relationship is over and they do x anyway you have no other option but to leave.

 

I don't agree with it, but I totally understand that philosophy.

[intuition897 2,179]

Sometimes men just want some things saved for them and them alone.

 

For me it's no bare play of any type including hand jobs and no anal.

 

Why should extras be allowed everything I am? That just puts me on the same level as them.

 

Because the harsh truth is, you ARE on the same level as any other man with a penis. I find it odd that that one particular act defines the success or failure of your relationship. The bottom line is, sex is just sex. She doesn't get to choose whether or not she is physically attracted to others; she just is. She can't "tone down" her attraction. Either you accept that she's enjoying another man's cock, or you don't. It really has nothing to do with you. And it has nothing to do with how much she might love or respect you. It's just her enjoying her own body.

 

Her body belongs to her. You don't get to own that shit. The best you can ever hope for when you're in a relationship with another person is the privilege of being allowed to ask him or her to please not do this or that, because you find it hurtful. It isn't a right. Out of love and respect, your partner will usually comply. But we should each retain the right to say, "No, I don't think it's okay for you to ask that of me. I think you need to work on yourself so you don't need to ask me to do/not do that."

 

Benawyl, you've often posted your views on how other men are "getting more than you". I find this concept very confusing. I can only suggest that the key to resolving this feeling of inadequacy (the need to hoard all the "special sex" for yourself and deny it to other men) is surely in your own mind. Why do you care what some "extra" thinks, anyway?

[Mbgdallas 203]

Because the harsh truth is, you ARE on the same level as any other man with a penis. I find it odd that that one particular act defines the success or failure of your relationship. The bottom line is, sex is just sex. She doesn't get to choose whether or not she is physically attracted to others; she just is. She can't "tone down" her attraction. Either you accept that she's enjoying another man's cock, or you don't. It really has nothing to do with you. And it has nothing to do with how much she might love or respect you. It's just her enjoying her own body.

 

Her body belongs to her. You don't get to own that shit. The best you can ever hope for when you're in a relationship with another person is the privilege of being allowed to ask him or her to please not do this or that, because you find it hurtful. It isn't a right. Out of love and respect, your partner will usually comply. But we should each retain the right to say, "No, I don't think it's okay for you to ask that of me. I think you need to work on yourself so you don't need to ask me to do/not do that."

 

Benawyl, you've often posted your views on how other men are "getting more than you". I find this concept very confusing. I can only suggest that the key to resolving this feeling of inadequacy (the need to hoard all the "special sex" for yourself and deny it to other men) is surely in your own mind. Why do you care what some "extra" thinks, anyway?

 

I can't buy this. I hope as her husband I am not on the same level as any other cock. I hope that the love and respect we have for each other puts me on a higher level.

 

Sorry I also disagree with the body ownership. It is joint ownership. In a marriage two become one and they together have to decide what happens. Of course... You can always do what you want and damage the relationship. I would also say that if the couple can't discuss it and come to an agreement then there are cracks in the relationship and shouldn't be swinging. One or the other, or both, people have a problem that needs to be addressed and resolved.

 

I.e. If I demand my wife not kiss him and she wants to kiss... Maybe I have a jealousy issue that needs to be resolved.

[cplnuswing 4,713]

I can't buy this. I hope as her husband I am not on the same level as any other cock. I hope that the love and respect we have for each other puts me on a higher level.

 

I think it all comes down to this really, the ability to separate the love and respect from the sex. My feeling is love and respect isn't gained through sex, and it isn't kept through sex. It can't even be lost through sex in and of itself. Yes, sex may be the mechanism that exposes selfishness, deceit, and betrayal, but there are other mechanisms for that to happen too, for example greed where someone ruins the life of their spouse and family when they end up in prison for embezzling from their employer. Their job was no more responsible for that than sex is for the other.

 

In the love and respect aspect, no one else should be in the game at all, much less on the same level. When it comes to simple sexual pleasure, that's a different thing entirely, and the two don't have to be linked together 100% of the time.

[benawyl 35]

Because the harsh truth is, you ARE on the same level as any other man with a penis. I find it odd that that one particular act defines the success or failure of your relationship. The bottom line is, sex is just sex. She doesn't get to choose whether or not she is physically attracted to others; she just is. She can't "tone down" her attraction. Either you accept that she's enjoying another man's cock, or you don't. It really has nothing to do with you. And it has nothing to do with how much she might love or respect you. It's just her enjoying her own body.

 

Her body belongs to her. You don't get to own that shit. The best you can ever hope for when you're in a relationship with another person is the privilege of being allowed to ask him or her to please not do this or that, because you find it hurtful. It isn't a right. Out of love and respect, your partner will usually comply. But we should each retain the right to say, "No, I don't think it's okay for you to ask that of me. I think you need to work on yourself so you don't need to ask me to do/not do that."

 

Benawyl, you've often posted your views on how other men are "getting more than you". I find this concept very confusing. I can only suggest that the key to resolving this feeling of inadequacy (the need to hoard all the "special sex" for yourself and deny it to other men) is surely in your own mind. Why do you care what some "extra" thinks, anyway?

 

Ok first I'll approach this from a monogamous perspective. The only thing that separates me from her male friends and coworkers is the fact that I'm having sex with her and they aren't.

 

In the context of swinging again one or two things saved for me are what separates me from them.

 

I'm sorry but yes if I'm the one who takes care of her when she's sick. I fix the house. All the other things I do besides fuck her then why shouldn't I expect better sex than some guy who just shows up?

[JandKinBoise 859]

Nearly everything has been covered here but I wanted to put out an experience along this line that backfired. We had a regular mmf partner we were seeing quite often. He and J would spend a lot of time kissing from the time he met with us until the screwing started. Honestly, it kinda bothered me but the jealousy was overridden by the serious hotness of the sex. Eventually, J told me that she would have a lot more fun if he would back off on the making out. She felt it was tedious and pointless as it was obvious everyone was turned on really quickly.

During the next conversation he and I were having, I asked if he could cut back on the making out and maybe get to the sex quicker. We haven't had sex with him since. He completely backed off. We didn't expect that, we can't go back, and he was the best sex we had experienced, even now.

Anyway, probably a pointless post but I thought it might help to see how the other side may react.

[benawyl 35]

Nearly everything has been covered here but I wanted to put out an experience along this line that backfired. We had a regular mmf partner we were seeing quite often. He and J would spend a lot of time kissing from the time he met with us until the screwing started. Honestly, it kinda bothered me but the jealousy was overridden by the serious hotness of the sex. Eventually, J told me that she would have a lot more fun if he would back off on the making out. She felt it was tedious and pointless as it was obvious everyone was turned on really quickly.

During the next conversation he and I were having, I asked if he could cut back on the making out and maybe get to the sex quicker. We haven't had sex with him since. He completely backed off. We didn't expect that, we can't go back, and he was the best sex we had experienced, even now.

Anyway, probably a pointless post but I thought it might help to see how the other side may react.

 

The other side? I don't care how the other guy feels. To me especially if he is a single male he's a dildo with a pulse.

[intuition897 2,179]

...he's a dildo with a pulse.

 

This is where I disagree. They aren't sex toys. They ARE people, and deserve to be respected as such. I just don't attribute a great deal of meaning with regard to relationships to sexual attraction or physical pleasure.

 

A friend of mine had a FUCKING HORRIFIC first experience with her husband and another woman (a loooooootttt of vodka involved and months of anguish in the aftermath...because she worked with they psychotic, narcissistic bitch), and she never really got over it. She said she used to feel like his special princess, up on a pedestal, apart from other women. And now she feels like "just another vaj". The truth is, yes...yes you are. Every other woman out there can offer your husband exactly the same thing: a hole into which to put his cock. If you want to use sex as the thing that defines your relationship, I'm sorry to say, this is the reality. The only solution is to keep all the cock/pussy to yourself so that no one else will ever compete with you.

 

The alternative is to challenge the way we see sex and relationships and start to look for those other ties that bind us to one another. If you agree that a relationship should be more than being 'just another dick/vaj' to one another, then it should prompt the question, "So what else is there? What differentiates me from other women/men?" For us, the answer has been - for lack of a better word - 'selfness'. No one else is me. No one else is Mr. intuition. I am confident in my relationship, because no one else is better at being me, than me. I will never be blonde, petite, math-smart, socially gifted, or built like a gymnast. I will never be a size zero. But you know what? I'm so okay with that. What do I have to offer my husband, that other women can't? Honesty. Total, blatant, glaring honesty. Myself. And the confidence to allow him to be himself, too, including his attractions to others. What do I have to offer him? In a nutshell, the world. I don't make him choose between me and all of the experiences he could potentially have out there in the wide, wild world. He gets all that...AND me. You show me a woman who could love him more completely, more unconditionally, and I would SEND him to her. My goal is to make his life as amazing as it can possibly be. If you ask me, I'm a pretty good catch, and he's an idiot if he can't see it.

[cplnuswing 4,713]

I'm sorry but yes if I'm the one who takes care of her when she's sick. I fix the house. All the other things I do besides fuck her then why shouldn't I expect better sex than some guy who just shows up?

 

So sex is a commodity to be bartered or offered in payment? What's going to happen when you aren't able to take care of her when she's sick or fix the house anymore, or when she's not able to have sex anymore?

 

It's funny you used the getting sick example, because that's one I like to use but from the other direction. Anybody can fuck, no problem finding someone for that, but fucking doesn't equal love and commitment. Setting your life aside to take care of them when they are sick, that demonstrates love and commitment IF it is freely given...which obviously isn't always the case I guess.

[benawyl 35]

So sex is a commodity to be bartered or offered in payment? What's going to happen when you aren't able to take care of her when she's sick or fix the house anymore, or when she's not able to have sex anymore?

 

It's funny you used the getting sick example, because that's one I like to use but from the other direction. Anybody can fuck, no problem finding someone for that, but fucking doesn't equal love and commitment. Setting your life aside to take care of them when they are sick, that demonstrates love and commitment IF it is freely given...which obviously isn't always the case I guess.

 

Love, relationships, and attraction aren't unconditional. Sorry but everybody has deal breakers.

 

For example she won't ever be with a fat man again. I know my ass better stay on top of my fitness or she's gone.

 

Oh and I don't treat sex as a commodity for example if she asked me to vacuum for a blow job I'd say no. Why? I should get bjs anyway not as a bribe.

 

But sorry I do equate sex and sex acts as how I feel special.

 

I'll give a perfect example of how she ruined a fantasy of mine. I had just never in all my adventures done the schoolgirl thing. Just never got around to it.

 

So I told her I had always wanted a girl that would dress up like that for me. She called me one day and said she was buying an outfit.

 

Well few weeks went by and there was a schoolgirl/teacher party. Well I asked her to do the teacher thing (because we hadn't done the schoolgirl thing yet) well she insisted on going as a schoolgirl. Having to share that with every other man and woman there ruined it for me. I wanted the first time to be with me alone at home.

 

I told her this later and she offered to dress up again at home but I told her it's not necessary any more.

 

Another example is we haven't had a FMF yet. She did them before we met but not one together. We've had two failed MFMs. We will let each other play separate but I did say at this point I'd be pretty upset if she went off and did an FMF with some other couple before we had a chance to do one together.

 

I don't see anything unreasonable with that.

[JAPrufrock 588]

If you only have one hard and fast boundary and the other person breaks it then you are absolutely justified in leaving and or throwing a fit.

 

If you tell your partner ahead of time you do x and our relationship is over and they do x anyway you have no other option but to leave.

 

That's why you never put yourself into that kind of situation.

 

This reminds me so much of child discipline. You cannot control other people's actions, especially through threats. I made that mistake with my four-year-old. We had a trip to my sister's we were looking forward to, and my daughter was being very disobedient. I told her if she did whatever she was doing one more time, we'd have to cancel the trip (thus depriving me of a much needed visit with my sister, and her time with her cousin.) Whaddayaknow, she acted out again and I was forced to follow through with my threat. The situation ended with everyone miserable. I have since changed my discipline tactics.

 

Now I'm not saying your partner is four, I'm saying that ultimatums have a way of making people do exactly the opposite of what you want them to do. In general, people like to feel like they have freedom. I don't know of any slaves who rave about how awesome it is to not have any control over their lives.

 

If Mr. Prufrock had this attitude with me, I'd tell him he could have a fun time coming in his hand for the rest of his life, (despite the fact that I would never, ever let anyone else come in me.) But Mr. Prufrock would never throw around ultimatums because he knows, as well as I do, that life is hardly ever black-and-white, and for relationships to last you have to be flexible and forgiving. He also respects me enough to not try to control me. If we had a rule and it was broken, there would definitely be discussion. There would most likely be hurt feelings and anger. But we would discuss it, we would work through it, and we would forgive one another. I am not a four-year-old to be told what to do and punished if I don't get in line. I am an adult who makes decisions for herself, and because I love and respect my husband I would honor any rules that we have made together.

 

I would imagine that most people want their spouse to keep to the rules because their spouse loves and respects them, rather then because they're afraid of the consequences.

[benawyl 35]

That's why you never put yourself into that kind of situation.

 

This reminds me so much of child discipline. You cannot control other people's actions, especially through threats. I made that mistake with my four-year-old. We had a trip to my sister's we were looking forward to, and my daughter was being very disobedient. I told her if she did whatever she was doing one more time, we'd have to cancel the trip (thus depriving me of a much needed visit with my sister, and her time with her cousin.) Whaddayaknow, she acted out again and I was forced to follow through with my threat. The situation ended with everyone miserable. I have since changed my discipline tactics.

 

Now I'm not saying your partner is four, I'm saying that ultimatums have a way of making people do exactly the opposite of what you want them to do. In general, people like to feel like they have freedom. I don't know of any slaves who rave about how awesome it is to not have any control over their lives.

 

If Mr. Prufrock had this attitude with me, I'd tell him he could have a fun time coming in his hand for the rest of his life, (despite the fact that I would never, ever let anyone else come in me.) But Mr. Prufrock would never throw around ultimatums because he knows, as well as I do, that life is hardly ever black-and-white, and for relationships to last you have to be flexible and forgiving. He also respects me enough to not try to control me. If we had a rule and it was broken, there would definitely be discussion. There would most likely be hurt feelings and anger. But we would discuss it, we would work through it, and we would forgive one another. I am not a four-year-old to be told what to do and punished if I don't get in line. I am an adult who makes decisions for herself, and because I love and respect my husband I would honor any rules that we have made together.

 

I would imagine that most people want their spouse to keep to the rules because their spouse loves and respects them, rather then because they're afraid of the consequences.

 

Hey she's free to do whatever she wants with whoever she wants but I'm also free to leave.

 

No different than if she was physically abusive. Had substance abuse issues and refused to do anything about it or any numerous things people split up over everyday.

 

Life is about choices and consequences. Good choices and good consequences. Bad choices and bad ones.

 

I love brownies fried chicken and all sorts of food. I could just eat tons of it and enjoy every second of it. If I do I'll get fat. If I get fat I become way less attractive. She then leaves and I have zero options outside of her. So I watch what I eat and exercise so that doesn't happen.

[Lionheart72 2,191]

Sorry I also disagree with the body ownership. It is joint ownership. In a marriage two become one and they together have to decide what happens.

 

No! Absolutely not!

 

Marriage is a partnership, not an ownership. You cannot own another human being. You cannot make another human beings decisions for them. Frankly, I find this kind of misogynistic crap offensive.

[benawyl 35]

No! Absolutely not!

 

Marriage is a partnership, not an ownership. You cannot own another human being. You cannot make another human beings decisions for them. Frankly, I find this kind of misogynistic crap offensive.

 

It's not misogynistic because the guy who posts this says it goes both ways.

If my GF says you do x and I won't be able to recover from it well she has that right. If I still knowingly do x then I just forfeited the relationship all on my own.

 

Nobody made me do it. It's not out of my control. I knowingly and willfully breach an agreement then that's on me.

[Ebonylehigh 254]

So many great points covered. My only add would be that I feel everything I do with my husband is separate and better than with any play partner simply because I love him and have all of our shared experiences together. I can do any sexual act with another man and it will never be the same or better than with my husband. We have decided that love is only allotted to each other and not available to anyone else.

 

Now to OP I will have to echo up thread that the main issue is the reluctance to discuss the no kissing men issue. Communication is absolutely necessary and lack of it will just breed resentment. You may very well have to keep that rule but you should be able to know why. Good luck.

[benawyl 35]

I'd like to know why "The Why" matters?

 

If somebody says I don't like x or don't want x isn't that all the info.needed?

[Alura 2,775]

I'd like to know why "The Why" matters?

 

If somebody says I don't like x or don't want x isn't that all the info.needed?

 

I suppose it depends on the situation, Benawyl. If you're in a situation, such as a club, where you don't know the folks you're considering swinging with, the "why" is not important. A simple "yes' or "no" will be more than enough.

 

If you're dealing with friends, or folks you'd like to become friends, the "why" becomes important.

 

If you're dealing with your spouse, the "why" is absolutely critical.

[sunbuckus 3,569]

I find that the reason why there is so much disconnect between benawyl's posts and the majority of the members here is because benawyl comes from the stance of a monogamous, possessive person. Whereas the majority of swingers either no longer hold that stance or never have. I have always seen vanilla, non-swingers to view monogamy as the ultimate commitment to their relationship. If the sexual fidelity isn't there, then they fall apart. For swingers, it isn't the sexual fidelity but the emotional fidelity between partners that proves their commitment. And for polyamorous couples, their bond isn't monogamy in terms of sex or love but their continual commitment to work through all issues when they occur, whether they be sex, love, or other-related. It's almost akin to those who behave well because they think their actions will give them access to heaven when they die versus those who intrinsically do good for others...not because they want to get a "good boy" treat at the end of the day. Do you "behave" in your relationship because it's all about your happiness/selfishness and not wanting to lose your partner (which would make you sad) or do you "behave" because you love them and it's about the other person, even if they choose to leave you?

 

Also, as Alura eluded to above, the "why" is paramount in any relationship because if you don't address it, it is as if you are sweeping the dust bunnies under the rug. If you continue to do so, it will continue to build up until the "mountain" is much harder to deal with than if you had worked on it from the beginning. This doesn't just apply to topics related to sex but everything. Money. Family. Work. Anything that gives you stress.

[funcoupledayton 2,708]

Anyone who I have played with I have valued as a person. I respect that they are sharing their body and their time with me. I see them as a person, not a sex toy. When I swing I give my partner my best effort (that may be just making out, soft swap or full).

 

I don't see the point of giving myself halfway or living life partway. Swinging is a chance to be your authentic self and to share that self with others. Why would I restrict myself or my husband, why would my husband limit my enjoyment? Swinging is about having fun, expanding yourself and your relationship. If it is making you suspicious or feel that you are better or worse than someone else, I think that is a problem. It's not for everyone, maybe it's not for your relationship.

[benawyl 35]

I suppose it depends on the situation, Benawyl. If you're in a situation, such as a club, where you don't know the folks you're considering swinging with, the "why" is not important. A simple "yes' or "no" will be more than enough.

 

If you're dealing with friends, or folks you'd like to become friends, the "why" becomes important.

 

If you're dealing with your spouse, the "why" is absolutely critical.

 

See for me and I was just discussing this with my partner, I don't need a why. If I did something with some other girl that made her feel uncomfortable then I would just stop. I wouldn't negotiate with her or want to know why. Out of respect for her I just stop.

 

The why behind that is because WE are what matters not our extracurricular playmates.

[intuition897 2,179]

I discussed this topic with Mr. intuition. He didn't disagree with my opinion, but he did say he would be rather put out if I was quick to engage in a sex act that I was reluctant to do with him. I've never been a fan of anal sex, so Mr. intuition is ready to bust open a bottle of champagne anytime I let him anywhere near my ass. (It's just not my thing!) If I had anal sex with a playmate, it might send the wrong message.

 

I should probably clarify here that this has nothing to do with who "owns" that particular part of my body. I DO own my own body, and retain the right to do with it as I please. I am, however, sensitive to my husband's interpretation of whatever it is I choose to do with it. I don't want him to feel hurt, and I can see how disregard for his feelings on this matter only stand to damage our relationship. So I comply with his wishes.

[econobiker 165]

All, great discussion here. I really like the discourse and fine reasoning going down in this thread.

 

For me and Red, kissing is ok every which way.

I'll abide by other's boundaries on kissng if the scene is a quick party type hookup but probably won't be repeated in the future however all of my regular swinger hookup partners have been or are great kissers.

[Bob250 74]

Personally, I think that a lot of the conflicts in this thread revolve around the twin ideas of "ownership" and "intimacy". A lot of people feel that kissing is more intimate/personal than sex. After all, you kiss your children, your parents, and those closest to you. So it stands to reason that you don't want to put a play partner or stranger on the same level of intimacy as those you love. I sort of agree with this line of thinking. If every act is ok, then how is anything special? And more importantly,how do you give a kiss to your loved ones that is different and special from that which you give your playmate?

 

As far as the idea that one person can make rules for another one, simply because they are part of a couple. I don't agree with this at all. Rules governing sexual boundaries should ALWAYS be jointly made. If there is a serious disagreement, then that practice should be viewed with it's relative importance to each individual. If partner X is adamant that he/she will kiss their playmates, regardless of the opinion of partner B. this would appear to be a serious impasse.

[benawyl 35]

Personally, I think that a lot of the conflicts in this thread revolve around the twin ideas of "ownership" and "intimacy". A lot of people feel that kissing is more intimate/personal than sex. After all, you kiss your children, your parents, and those closest to you. So it stands to reason that you don't want to put a play partner or stranger on the same level of intimacy as those you love. I sort of agree with this line of thinking. If every act is ok, then how is anything special? And more importantly,how do you give a kiss to your loved ones that is different and special from that which you give your playmate?

 

As far as the idea that one person can make rules for another one, simply because they are part of a couple. I don't agree with this at all. Rules governing sexual boundaries should ALWAYS be jointly made. If there is a serious disagreement, then that practice should be viewed with it's relative importance to each individual. If partner X is adamant that he/she will kiss their playmates, regardless of the opinion of partner B. this would appear to be a serious impasse.

 

See Bob I disagree. I'm 100% ok for her to make rules and have objections. She should be 100% ok with me doing the same.

 

If she asks me not to do X and I do it anyway then I'm saying X is more important than my relationship with you. Once I go down that line then she would be justified in ending the relationship.

 

 

So while each person has the right to do whatever they want with play partners the SO of those individuals has the right to leave.

[Bob250 74]

Well, I don't believe in throwing out the baby with the bath water. I just think that these kind of issues are going to crop up in ANY relationship, and if your only answer is to cut and run, that says more about your values and lack of problem solving skills, than about the importance of the original issue. Personally, I would be much more concerned about the intimacy aspect, than about the possessiveness issue.

[Bob250 74]

Look it. When I first started to play, I used to play with a couple from Cinn, Ohio a lot. We were about the same age and enjoyed each others company as well as the sex. The woman was a GREAT kisser, during sex the way she would kiss was both passionate and intimate. She would place her hands on either side of your face, look you in the eye and kiss long and deep. It was super hot. I made the mistake of going with them to a vanilla party and noticed that she kissed her kids the same way, holding their faces between her hands. It was a huge turnoff. We continued to play occasionally, but I avoided kissing her, if possible.

[benawyl 35]

Well, I don't believe in throwing out the baby with the bath water. I just think that these kind of issues are going to crop up in ANY relationship, and if your only answer is to cut and run, that says more about your values and lack of problem solving skills, than about the importance of the original issue. Personally, I would be much more concerned about the intimacy aspect, than about the possessiveness issue.

 

It's not throwing the baby out with the bath water. If I tell her before we ever play for the first time that you do this one thing and it will be the end of our relationship. Just this one thing and she goes out and does it then there is no other option Bob. She obviously doesn't respect me or value the relationship so move on.

[Mbgdallas 203]

No! Absolutely not!

 

Marriage is a partnership, not an ownership. You cannot own another human being. You cannot make another human beings decisions for them. Frankly, I find this kind of misogynistic crap offensive.

 

No! No! No! Absolutely not! This is not misogynistic and I find the throwing around of labels without any understanding offensive.

 

Sorry that you are so hung up on specific words and don't read what was written. The intent was absolutely clear. It is a JOINT decision whether it be ownership or partnership. It is the relationship that matters and they BOTH have ownership of the RELATIONSHIP.

 

I think my first statement made it very clear. I don't agree with body ownership. Neither "own" each other... They both have ownership of the marriage and the partnership... With that comes some desired control over the others body... Or the marriage/partnership has a crack that could collapse it. There are also degrees. If I like long hair and my spouse cuts her hair short... Don't think that it would break up the marriage... The why behind it might... So if my spouse doesn't want to break up the marriage then she needs to consider my feelings. So... The cutting of the hair and ownership is not the true issue... It is the symptom that shows a potential lack of caring or respect.

 

This issue is way deeper than outright "ownership". It is about communication, understanding, desire, and respect.

 

I like long hair... Wife decides she wants short hair because her other lover likes short hair... What does that say about how she feels about me?

 

I like long hair... Wife decides she wants short hair because she is stressed with having to get the kids up every morning and get them to school and herself to work while I am on the road for work... Short hair is easier in the morning and therefore less stressful... What does that say about me if I don't understand and give up on wanting the long hair?

[Bob250 74]

This thread is amazingly informative. I would never have guessed that it was in a Swingers forum. I would have guessed that the issue of kissing during sex play with a stranger, would be all about intimacy. But I would have been wrong. It seems to be all about control, ownership and boundaries. When I first started in the LS, what attracted me the most (besides lots of sex) was the freedom it gave to people. Truly a very interesting thread.

[benawyl 35]

No! No! No! Absolutely not! This is not misogynistic and I find the throwing around of labels without any understanding offensive.

 

Sorry that you are so hung up on specific words and don't read what was written. The intent was absolutely clear. It is a JOINT decision whether it be ownership or partnership. It is the relationship that matters and they BOTH have ownership of the RELATIONSHIP.

 

I think my first statement made it very clear. I don't agree with body ownership. Neither "own" each other... They both have ownership of the marriage and the partnership... With that comes some desired control over the others body... Or the marriage/partnership has a crack that could collapse it. There are also degrees. If I like long hair and my spouse cuts her hair short... Don't think that it would break up the marriage... The why behind it might... So if my spouse doesn't want to break up the marriage then she needs to consider my feelings. So... The cutting of the hair and ownership is not the true issue... It is the symptom that shows a potential lack of caring or respect.

 

This issue is way deeper than outright "ownership". It is about communication, understanding, desire, and respect.

 

I like long hair... Wife decides she wants short hair because her other lover likes short hair... What does that say about how she feels about me?

 

I like long hair... Wife decides she wants short hair because she is stressed with having to get the kids up every morning and get them to school and herself to work while I am on the road for work... Short hair is easier in the morning and therefore less stressful... What does that say about me if I don't understand and give up on wanting the long hair?

 

Yes I also can't stand short hair. I tell my GFs that I don't like it upfront. Would I break up with a woman if she cut her hair? No, but I would probably go buy her a wig. ( yes I tell them this up front in a relationship)I also might stop fucking her for a while. It would impact my attraction level for her.

 

Now if she did it for a lover? Oh that would absolutely not happen. That would be a huge issue.

[Mbgdallas 203]

Yes I also can't stand short hair. I tell my GFs that I don't like it upfront. Would I break up with a woman if she cut her hair? No, but I would probably go buy her a wig. ( yes I tell them this up front in a relationship)I also might stop fucking her for a while. It would impact my attraction level for her.

 

Now if she did it for a lover? Oh that would absolutely not happen. That would be a huge issue.

 

Bingo. You got it.

[Mbgdallas 203]

This thread is amazingly informative. I would never have guessed that it was in a Swingers forum. I would have guessed that the issue of kissing during sex play with a stranger, would be all about intimacy. But I would have been wrong. It seems to be all about control, ownership and boundaries. When I first started in the LS, what attracted me the most (besides lots of sex) was the freedom it gave to people. Truly a very interesting thread.

 

I don't think why is about control, ownership, and boundaries. I would say that the why IS about intimacy. It goes something like this.

 

I don't want my wife to kiss another guy because it is too intimate. My wife wants to kiss because she enjoys it and doesn't see it as too intimate. The problem arises when I can't control how I feel about the hurt I experience when she kisses. If she ignores my wishes and my hurt what does that say... I don't care enough not to hurt you? That is not a control, ownership, or boundary issue. It is a love, respect, not want to hurt your partner issue because the other thinks it is too intimate.

 

If it was just about control, ownership, or boundaries it would just be don't kiss because I said so.

[Bob250 74]

I don't think why is about control, ownership, and boundaries. I would say that the why IS about intimacy. It goes something like this.

 

I don't want my wife to kiss another guy because it is too intimate. My wife wants to kiss because she enjoys it and doesn't see it as too intimate. The problem arises when I can't control how I feel about the hurt I experience when she kisses. If she ignores my wishes and my hurt what does that say... I don't care enough not to hurt you? That is not a control, ownership, or boundary issue. It is a love, respect, not want to hurt your partner issue because the other thinks it is too intimate.

 

If it was just about control, ownership, or boundaries it would just be don't kiss because I said so.

Sorry but your example shows that you are using intimacy as an excuse, but the real issue is control and who has it.

[Mbgdallas 203]

Sorry but your example shows that you are using intimacy as an excuse, but the real issue is control and who has it.

 

Bob250... You are so wrong and you have no idea what you are talking about. You are projecting your ideas onto others. Maybe it is a control issue for you but certainly not me except that I can't control how I feel. That is the only control issue here. If it was a control issue do you think it would be over something so seemingly trivial as kissing is the grand scheme of the lifestyle? Control would most likely be over something bigger like fucking others.

 

And just for the record... I have no problem with kissing personally.

[Bob250 74]

OK, I'm not going to bandy words with you about this, and I don't appreciate your offensive personal comments. You did not start this thread and you don't own it, so who are you to tell me that my opinion is rubbish? I will not respond to your posts, further.

[Bob250 74]

This issue is clearly about control, because the OP says it's a dealbreaker, and is issuing ultimatums about it, instead of attempting to work it out through communication, trust and compromise. He is dictating, or attempting to, his partners preferences under threat. As I have said in other posts, a couple is not a single entity, but a union of two single entities. Never, is there going to be complete agreement about all issues, not just sexual ones. Healthy, loving, equal relationships find a way to work these issues out, without threats, without blame, and without control. Take it for what you will.

[JandKinBoise 859]

I don't think this is about control or ownership. It's about security. Say 15 years ago we decide to start swinging. At that point in my life I would have had a long list of rules. The rules would have been set to ensure my relationship was in tact the next day. Breaking the rules would have resulted in me being jealous to the point of maybe leaving. So swinging was off the books. Then, a few years ago something in our life happened and my feeling of security in the relationship was shaken to the foundation. I no longer felt she may fall in love and leave me. I knew in the center of my being that my relationship was absolutely secure and no matter what she did sexually was going to change that. She was always going to be coming home with me.

 

In my uneducated opinion, the OP is not in a place in his relationship where swinging should be taking place. If an activity is taking place in a marriage or relationship that has the potential of ending the relationship, it should not be approached. We have found that in the moment, things happen. I'd hate to feel the need to leave the next day because of an event during a lustful encounter that I had encouraged.

[benawyl 35]

I don't think this is about control or ownership. It's about security. Say 15 years ago we decide to start swinging. At that point in my life I would have had a long list of rules. The rules would have been set to ensure my relationship was in tact the next day. Breaking the rules would have resulted in me being jealous to the point of maybe leaving. So swinging was off the books. Then, a few years ago something in our life happened and my feeling of security in the relationship was shaken to the foundation. I no longer felt she may fall in love and leave me. I knew in the center of my being that my relationship was absolutely secure and no matter what she did sexually was going to change that. She was always going to be coming home with me.

 

In my uneducated opinion, the OP is not in a place in his relationship where swinging should be taking place. If an activity is taking place in a marriage or relationship that has the potential of ending the relationship, it should not be approached. We have found that in the moment, things happen. I'd hate to feel the need to leave the next day because of an event during a lustful encounter that I had encouraged.

 

I don't encourage anything. My partner came to me about swinging. I said ok I'll try it under these conditions. I laid those boundaries out clearly. I can take or leave swinging. I don't get turned on watching her with men or women. I get absolutely nothing out of her being with others.

 

Her coming home with me is just not enough for me.Sorry I'm not wired that way. I need a partner that needs me sexually just as much if not more as they do emotionally.

 

Don't let somebody fuck you in the ass and all cum stays in condoms. Yep sounds like a complete dictatorship.

 

 

Hey I'll be honest I'd rather her fall in love and leave than fall in lust with somebody else, stay, and then I get lackluster sex or she is fantasizing about him while she fucks me.