The Friendship Taboo

[Lionheart72 2,191]

I want to address the Friendship Taboo... by which I mean, the constant advice from regular posters here on Swingers Board that swinging with friends is a Bad Idea.

 

It seems that for many of our regular posters the mere suggestion of swinging with friends, regardless of specifics, brings an immediate and even passionate negative response: Don't Do It. This is always explained as It Will Ruin Your Friendship. Frankly, I don't understand this position at all. I mean, honestly, it strikes me as so close to the basic objection vanillas bring to swinging as a concept: Don't Do It, It Will Ruin Your Marriage. To which we inevitably counter that with a solid relationship and open, honest communication swinging can be a fun recreational activity for couples who are inclined to it. While we acknowledge that not every couple has the right make up to be swingers, we do hold that it can be done.

 

It seems to me that the same logic applies to swinging with friends. If your friends have the right make up to be swingers, and if there is a solid relationship with open, honest communication, playing with friends can work. Is there a risk? Of course, but isn't it the same risk that the swinging couple is taking in their own relationship?

[sunbuckus 3,569]

I see it as just knowing the risks...similar to playing with or without condoms. Couples can play with friends as long as they consider the risks just like those can play bareback as long as they make an educated decision about the related risks in terms of STIs/STDs.

 

Edit: Also, usually the friends are vanilla and might not have considered swinging or non-monogamy which comes with its own issues.

[MrDiscover 802]

I don't read the majority of those advises (including mine) as "don't do it, it will ruin your friendship". What I do read, including mine (I hope) is: things can always go wrong, but in case of a friendship the result may be a bigger loss. "Do or don't but consider this important risk".

 

There is another side to this topic, as we are experiencing at the moment, and that is more or less the other way around: you find stranger(s), start dating and having sex and grow as a three- or moresome up to a point where you are close friends. Then you are at the exact point of having this risk.

[GoldCoCouple 4,068]

We are one of those couples who don't recommend swinging with friends. We just feel that the risk/reward risk is too great. No matter how close of friends you may be, you never know where the other couple is in their relationship. Since friends all too often share other friends, work connections, relationships with other family members, children who are also friends, and the community, if something were to happen and you were 'outed', at best it forces your common friends then to choose sides. At worst, it can cost you your standing in the community, harassment and embarrassment of your children, alienation of family and others, and even your job.

 

Ms. Gold has been here in her former marriage. She and her husband would often get together with their best friends (Ms. Gold and the other wife were best friends from high school) and have some wine while in the hot tub. After awhile, the swim suits became optional...the wine lowered inhibitions and eventually they 'crossed over to the dark side'. At first it was fun and exciting...in the end, it cost them their marriage (they were 'trying' this to 'save' their already damaged marriage by doing this) and their friendship with the other couple (the other husband fell in love with Ms. Gold and told her that he would leave his wife if she would have him...she wasn't interested). All of the other common friends were forced to choose sides and things just became very ugly. Even the kids suffered as they found out what mommy and daddy were doing. I was very surprised that Ms. Gold was even interested in swinging after what she went through (believe it or not, she is the one who suggested it).

 

We both believe to learn for our (and her) mistakes. Our relationship is nothing like she had with her former husband and we work very hard to keep it that way. While finding another couple can be a challenge, it is easier than finding another community/career/friends. And we have become best friends with the other couple that we have been seeing (now for several years). The difference it that we started our friendship with them having swinging as a common interest instead of having everything else as the common thread. While there are some who have had success in swinging with friends (so far), for us the risk is all too often is just (IOHO) too high to take the chance.

[Lionheart72 2,191]

... have some wine while in the hot tub. After awhile, the swim suits became optional...the wine lowered inhibitions and eventually they 'crossed over to the dark side'. At first it was fun and exciting...in the end, it cost them their marriage ...

 

Stripped of the baggage, what I'm seeing here is a scenario we've seen all too often on the Situational Help forum: impulsiveness fueled by alcohol, lack of honest communication, swinging for the wrong reasons, all resulting in drama. These are all problems which could have occurred with equal, perhaps even greater, likelihood when swinging with strangers. You say "you never know where the other couple is in their relationship" but surely that's even more true when swinging with strangers than with friends.

 

The real difference I see if that when swinging with friends you aren't insulated from the drama should things go horribly wrong. You or I could walk away relatively unharmed if a strangers marriage collapses because we played with them but not so with a friend. I find myself questioning the ethics of that position.

 

It seems to me that the risk is there no matter what and the only way to avoid it - with friends or strangers - is our old standard: open, honest communication.

[SAMnTINA 362]

No problem with friendship. We have great lifestyle friends that we include not only for naked parties but also at family events (everyone keeps their clothes on and knows how to behave when called for our they would not make it onto the friends list). We don't meet to find friends, but when it happens great and the best friends are naked friends that you can have sex with or go out to dinner with. Friendship comes after sex and it's not about the sex that's just a plus. It's about being like minded enjoying the same things and not having to put on a front as lets face after all once we have had sex there is very little to hide or put on airs about.

[findinganswers 369]

We have asked the question on another thread. We are the vanilla couple, the other couple has already done this (we just learned). It is the wife's closest friend. Her second husband and he did this before they met and now they are as a couple. The friend confided in my wife and gave her some details. She didn't come out ask my wife if she wants to "try". I think it was implied. Conversation also came up at a dinner night out. More of we did this, not do you want to do this. Why else would they be telling us this?

Like reading the pros and cons.

[Lionheart72 2,191]

The friend confided in my wife and gave her some details. She didn't come out ask my wife if she wants to "try". I think it was implied. Conversation also came up at a dinner night out. More of we did this, not do you want to do this. Why else would they be telling us this?

 

At risk of derailing my own topic, I think it's possible they don't want to play with you. They might just want someone they can talk to about this part of their lives. I've done it myself... talked to a friend who I knew would listen and not judge but toward whom I had no sexual interest. Sometimes it's nice just to share with someone more "real" than an anonymous poster on an internet forum.

[Lionheart72 2,191]

Having slept on this topic and thought some more about folks responses, both here and on other threads, it seems to me that the real danger of swinging with friends is making assumptions... moving to far, to fast because the preexisting relationship causes you to skip parts of the conversation that should otherwise be had.

 

As for swinging with vanilla friends, I think we all agree that swinging with anyone vanilla represents a serious risk. Better to wait for them to find their own way into swinging and explore at their own pace.

[asncpl 730]

I just want to offer a different perspective. The thing is good vanilla friends do not always make good swinging partners. They may be great friends but perhaps when everyone gets into the bedroom, there may be something you don't like and you don't want to play with them again. With strangers, it's not a big deal because the purpose of getting together is to have sex, and if it doesn't work out, everyone is usually pretty understanding. With friends, there is the added dimension of "is this going to affect the friendship?" So yes it's a risk, like everything else, but it seems there is more to lose.

 

Lionheart's last post hit it right on: let them figure out swinging first. We have played with newbies before and their reactions are unpredictable, and no amount of conversation can fix it. Some had a great time and wanted to do it again. I have had a female half of the couple crying uncontrollably afterwards. A few had a deer-in-the-headlight look and in shock they actually did it. Add friendship to the mix and there is no saying how it will turn out.

 

With that said, while we don't play with vanilla friends as a general rule, we have done it with one couple who are close friends while on vacation sharing a house together. Like Gold said, the swimsuits went first and then the rest of inhibitions. We played a few times during the vacation but didn't continue upon return, and we all remain good friends to this day.

[GoldCoCouple 4,068]

What happens on vacation stays on vacation

[NakedInSeattle 159]

Speaking for us, we lost a good friend after swinging with him due to him getting a terrible case of "the guilties". He felt so guilty for committing the "sin of adultery" that he couldn't face us afterwards. We wish we had kept him as just a friend.

[GoldCoCouple 4,068]

Sorry to hear that...

[JandKinBoise 859]

It has to be difficult to stick to a rule like 'no swinging with friends'. We fell into bed with the wife's best friend many years ago during an evening of the 3 of us playing pool and drinking way too much at our house. She was living with us briefly while her divorce was proceeding. The friend and I were both ready to light up the night, and had been a few times before but my wife's cooler head always prevailed and we kept our pants on. This night, she was as hammered as us and the inhibitions fell. It took awhile after this time in our lives but the best friend is now on the shit list and no longer in our life. I feel bad for my wife as she isn't very social and this was her only real friend. This was solely due to having sex with her.

I think with friends, there is too much baggage to be able to get away with this. Someone takes advantage, someone is hurt, drama follows. Friendships based on sex have a better set of rules.

[obkabc 19]

The wife and I are still young enough, where rumors and gossip would be a life changing event. We have a friend that works at the store close to the house, who at the time was 25 and still a virgin. Decent looking guy but, he lived with his mom, made no money, and loved super hero movies WAY to much. We went to the store one night talked to him and he said it was his birthday but he had no plans and was broke etc. So we said well when you get off just come over and we'll just have a drink and hang out you shouldnt be alone on your birthday. He came over and Margaritas turned into shots turned into drinking games etc. My wife brought up him being a virgin, and said casually we can go in the other room and change that lol. He just laughed it off, but you could see it in his eyes he wanted to say yes. Anyway the next day the wife and I discussed, the only reason she or we didnt act on it was cause we knew he'd want to tell everyone and eventually he would tell someone really how it went down and we'd be blacklisted or talked about. He ended up losing his v card a few months later in a dark alley behind a dive bar to a 50 year old lady who told him "no guy his age should be a virgin" God bless that woman

[intuition897 2,179]

Just wanted to say I really dig obkabc's story.

 

I think Mr. intuition and I have evolved now to where we do want to find some nice friends with benefits. We're getting too old for bullshit anymore; if you want to call yourself a friend, then you're going to find yourself babysitting our dogs while we're on vacation, helping to reshingle a roof and be paid in beer, or called upon to accompany Mr. intuition put up his ground blind or plant the deer food plot while the Mrs. and I work our way through a nice bottle of 2010 Rioja while making a shit ton of jam on the kitchen island...or something like that. You'll be invited to hang out with our family, rent a cottage together someplace, vacation with us, and borrow our shit whenever you ask. But our standards are pretty high, and it's hard to find people who we would consider good, loyal friends. These, however, would be the best kinds of friends to fuck. Does that make us poly? Maybe. I don't know. Don't care what it's called. We have yet to find it.

 

My best friend is very sex-positive and open minded. She and her husband tried swinging with really, really bad results, and she has determined that she's not a swinger - she'd be happily monogamous for the rest of her life, she said. She is, however, a lesbian at heart. She's hopelessly attracted to women. She has never come right out and asked me, but I have had the feeling that she would have liked our friendship to develop into something more. I could not, in good conscience, do so for a couple of reasons. One, I really am not that into women..not like she is. Two, I am WAAAY too detached about sex. For me, it's not an emotional experience, and for her, love and sex are one and the same. She has a somewhat...extreme personality. She loves what she likes, abhors what she dislikes. She has a huge heart, God love her, but that's the problem. I don't have any interest in developing a romantic relationship AT ALL. I just don't have anything there to give her. Getting involved with her, even if it might seem like fun, would be irresponsible because I can foresee the outcome: a broken heart, and it's not mine. So I think FWB's can and do work, but not with every friend, every time. It's about being careful and selective.

[GoldCoCouple 4,068]

That's why we went looking for people in the LS who we wouldn't mind being friends with but know that they also wouldn't mind taking off their clothes at some point as well. This has worked very well for us so far and have had a ton of memories and experiences we never thought we would have (even in my oh-so-wild imagination).

 

Intuition: We would happily do all of those things but you can keep the beer (I'm just not much of a beer drinker). Instead, having both women topless when you bring out the lemonade is more than payment enough. Ms. Gold also makes jam and preserves from the garden (but doing that topless can be hazardous). Let us know if you have any extra lying around...

[findinganswers 369]

We are the vanilla couple and we did it with friends. Can't imagine a better way.

[TricianMike 788]

We are the vanilla couple and we did it with friends. Can't imagine a better way.

 

Good for you. I am sure they didn't push you into it and you did because you wanted to. Though we like to meet new people and have new experiences, I agree, if you can find a friend who is into the lifestyle, it is the best of all scenarios. As the original poster wrote, there is a risk.

[GoldCoCouple 4,068]

We are the vanilla couple and we did it with friends. Can't imagine a better way.

 

You WERE the vanilla couple...welcome to the dark side.

[M1F2KTJ 473]

Our first experience was with someone we already knew. It took our friendship to a new level. It developed into a poly relationship.