Holli & Michael - Playboy Swing TV - Are they even "real swingers"?

[NYFlirts 158]

This is something I haven't really understood and thought I could get some guidance from the masses here!

 

Holli & Michael are kinda the celebrity faces of swingers and swinging. They are at a lot of swinger events as celebrities and the voice of swinger experience and knowledge to the non-swinger world.

 

Here's my question: They aren't really even "swingers" in the sense that the vast majority of us define the term. I mean, unless there's something we don't know, they aren't a "full-swap" couple in that she doesn't play with other guys.

 

Now, let me be VERY clear: I'm NOT saying that "swingers" only encompass "full-swap" or where both couples swap. Swinging is a very broad term.

 

With that said, I would like a couple that's, in effect, representing "swinging" to be a couple that has vast amounts of experience doing the thing that most "swingers" do: Couple full-swap.

 

I mean, there are all these vanilla news interviews with them where they share their experiences and say stuff like "Swinging has been great for our relationship! etc." ... but they aren't "swinging" in the sense that most of us (and the rest of the vanilla population) would interpret "swinging".

 

Again, I have no issues with them. They are cool people and we've even met them a couple times. I'm just bummed that the "face of swinging" is a couple that isn't really "swinging" (in the sense of the word that *most* people will understand it.

 

So, am I the only one that feels this way?

 

Here's their site for more info: Holli and Michael | Holli and Michael

[Guest sandraandalex]

Well, I haven't watched every episode ,"frame for frame," to see what they do or do not do per se. They appear to be exhibitionist/voyeurs where she gets a bit of a bi girl thing going on once in a while. I cannot recall ever seeing Holli have sex with any other man or Michael have sex with any other woman. They became a 'celebrity' voice because they're conversational, attractive, they're on a tv show and can supply a good interview. No different than some of the pundit 'experts' on a political program whose credentials are less than perfect. Essentially they do their role well and they're available. Are they full swap swingers ? No. Are they perhaps 'cashing in' a smidgen on what they are willing to do on camera and discuss openly ? Perhaps. Are they expressing themselves in their own legitimate way and making it work for them ? Sure. It's not going to be a problem for them until a reporter asks Holli what she likes about sex with other men and she has to say she doesn't do that. Then pose the same question to Michael about sex with other women. The thing is most reporters simply haven't watched Playboy Swing enough to know what you know. In some ways it's like someone promoting vegetarianism , then finding them at a Chic-Fil-A. What they're saying about vegetarianism, in this case Swinging, may all be true, they're just not fully participating in the concept.

[NYFlirts 158]

Good points.

 

I just have to imagine that out of the millions of swinger couples out there, there is at least one "full-swap" couple that is just as attractive, charismatic, and willing to be open about their lifestyle.

 

I guess it's a question of who they are promoting the LS to? If it's to vanillas that don't really know much, and Michael / Holli help get these vanillas to explore the LS, then that's fine.

 

Our question is all the help / advice they give to active swingers on what to do / not to do. I just feel like it would be slightly better coming from a couple that can speak from experience.

 

Again, it's not a huge issue, and I'd rather have them doing their great work than nobody... I just wish they more fully represented "swingers".

[Guest sandraandalex]

There's a nifty podcast called 'Swingercast'. The couple hosting it, for quite some time, only engaged in soft play. Yet, they effectively discussed and commented on their experiences in the Lifestyle as a whole. All in all, very positive and accurate points of view, despite not being a full swap couple. They always fully disclosed the type of play they were into. Their sexual play evolved into full swap, but that didn't diminish the quality of their discussion on Swinging before that. Yet, your key point seems to be that Holli and Michael talk and act like one type of Swinger, when they're actually not that. That is disingenuous, from a certain point of view. I recall once a person explaining that they weren't lying, they simply weren't completely forthcoming. The retort was that a lie of omission is still a lie. I think that's your concern, the lies of omission.

[WesternSwing 504]

I think it also has much to do also with what is social acceptable, even inside the realm of what is seen as on the fringe of society. This being the One Penis Policy. It's cool for a guy to bang multiple women and hot for a woman to have sex with another woman, but women having sex with multiple men makes her a "slut". Remember the Showtime series "Married & Dating" about a couple polyamorous relationships? They were almost all MFF relationships. It really wasn't until near the last season a woman took another lover besides her husband.

 

It's just the image the media wants to portray, not necessarily reality. Sure, there are lots of OPP couples, but I'd wager there are two hotwife couples for every OPP couple in the real world.

[kikonkrome 843]

"One Penis Policy" LMAO couldn't have been said better. There is certainly a prevailing 'social norm' stating only one penis. It was really evident in the United States during the Gay Marriage media reporting, the media only showing cool looking lesbians...never gay men. It really got on my nerves.

 

It shows up in 'Sister Wives', we are all one happy family with one penis!! LMFAOF!!

 

I would say from the perusal of the website, this couple is just flat out going for the most marketable advice, scenario. I was left wondering if they were legit or 'cast for Playboy'. As an ex-avid reader of Playboy and their advice columns (they were amazingly off base), this couple would match their editorial material.

[sprinklez69 23]

I agree with the poster. I only watched a couple of the seasons then realized it was a scripted, and staged show. They always bothered me "hi we are swingers but we don't play with anyone."

 

Each couple has their own rules and what they are looking for. Holli & Michael are not the norm and should not be presented as such.

[HolliandMichael 22]

We love this thread. Getting a huge kick out of Swingers claiming we're not real. Hysterical none of you had the courage to confront us in person, on radio, or even through social media. Maybe you forgot, if you have a question about Holli and Michael (us) the mature thing would be to ask Holli and Michael (us). As Swingers we ask society not to judge what we do but here you all sit in judgement of us. Shame on you. As for the definition of Swingers, allow us to suggest you look it up because nowhere does it claim full swap is what a Swinger must do to be a Swinger. Until you are in our bedroom every night to witness who we do or do not play with and since none of you had the maturity to ask us directly stop whining and start acting like adults. Further, maybe, just maybe you should recognize any type of swapping (for us at least) only occurs when there's attraction so claiming "they didn't play on TV" could be for a good reason. Lastly (because we are getting a kick out of this and absolutely will discuss this mid-September live on air) how many of you that posted are out to your friends, family, colleagues, and the world? We're not saying you have to be but at least we share with main stream society the benefits of consensual non-monogamy whereas you hide behind a screen claiming we're fake, frauds, cashing in, inexperienced, and not worthy of being the "faces of the Swinger community." Thank You for the laugh but we'll get back to sharing with the world who and what Swingers are and what all types of consensual non-monogamy is. Have a problem with that? Contact us. Challenge us. Confront us. Because the bottom line is it's a win for the community we love, Swingers and those in consensual non-monogamous relationships. Oh, by the way, sorry to burst your ego or bubble but Swing on Playboy TV was not scripted and did not cast actors. No matter what though, we aren't judging you like you judge us. We hope you are happy, healthy, and enjoying life. We are not angry but we are saddened that Swingers are judging other Swingers. What is it that we share on our radio show, on any TV show, or in any article we write or interview we do that is incorrect? Are Swingers not openminded? Are Swingers not wrongly stereotyped and judged? Is there or is there not a stigma of Swingers? Isn't communication important? Shouldn't consent be present whenever people are playing? Are you claiming one partner should "take one for the team?" Is Swinging not available to anyone but not right for everyone? Is sharing not caring? Is Swinging more about the 'me' and less about the 'we.'? Is there only one right way to Swing? So again we ask, what is it we share with the world that doesn't reflect the needs of our entire community? Without a doubt our travels have allowed us to meet and speak to over one hundred thousand people, some in and some out of the Lifestyle. Bottom line is, we listen and we listen and we listen. Then we share what we learn. Oh yes we play too but hearing about who we played with and what type of play occurred will not get the message out that the life we all live and love is ok and should not be judged. Nice that you feel your way is the only way. I'm sure you noted we posted as ourselves and it's easy to contact us. Do it. A healthy discussion and debate helps many and harms none as long as respect is given. We'll give you the respect you didn't give us. We'll listen and discuss this with you directly if you'd like and not behind your backs where you may or may not have the opportunity to 1) read and 2) respond.

Holli and Michael

[HolliandMichael 22]

So we're not the norm? Please share with all of us what the "norm" is. We're ready to listen/read.

[GuyInMD79 1,500]

Hello, Holli and Michael, Welcome to SwingersBoard!

 

First, I want to let you know that the opinions that have been given in this thread do not necessarily represent those of most of the folks here on SwingersBoard, nor, I think, do they represent most of those in the lifestyle. Of course people recognize that there are many ways to play in the lifestyle, and if a particular way works for the people involved, then it works!

 

The shame of this thread is that it seems to me to be somewhat out of character for this place. I've always felt like SwingersBoard has been a safe haven in the Wild West of the Internet, where those in the lifestyle, and those who aspire to be, or are curious about it, can come to talk as part of a friendly and non-judgemental community of like-minded people. I'm not sure that this thread quite lives up to that reputation!

 

I had the pleasure of meeting Michael and Holli recently, at Naughty in N'awlins in July. They were friendly, generous with their time, and interesting. And I think they do a fine job as voices in favor of a more open and accepting attitude toward sexuality. They effectively represent to the rest of the world what most of us in the lifestyle have come to know- that for many people, swinging is a healthy, enjoyable, and realationship-strengthening aspect of their lives. And whether Michael and Holli happen to be full swap, soft swap, FFM-loving, bi, straight, or happen to like drizzling chocolate sauce on their friends' genitals, is very much beside the point!

 

Another thing that, for the Mrs. and me anyway, is beside the point is whether or how much of "Swing" is arranged. The main point for us is that, unlike many other TV programs we've seen about swinging, "Swing" presents the lifestyle as the mostly-positive activity that it is. That show was the catalyst that got the Mrs. and me thinking and talking about whether swinging was a thing we'd want to try. Now, I will tell you that as we watched the show initially, we wondered at first whether "Swing" was depicting swingers accurately, whether people were really as caring, respectful, and thoughtful as the show represented swingers to be. And we were nervous before we went to our first meet-and-greet, worried that the portrait of swingers presented on the show was a rosy, "prettified" caricature of real swingers, artificially made for TV. To our relief, what we found was that the people at that meet-and-greet were exactly as cool, considerate, and respectful as the people on the show! And after being in the lifestyle for two years now, our opinion has not changed very much- the majority of people in the lifestyle are as cool as the people on "Swing"! That is what's most important to us.

 

Michael and Holli, I hope you'll stick around here- it's nice to see you on SwingersBoard!

[funcoupledayton 2,708]

So we're not the norm? Please share with all of us what the "norm" is. We're ready to listen/read.

 

I think that you are taking a discussion that was basically just idle chatter NINE months ago and making it into a much bigger deal than it is. You are seen as celebrities and people are probably not going to ask you personally. Talking about you is what promotes your show, so you really shouldn't be that bent out of shape over it.

 

That being said, swinging does have a broad definition in my personal opinion. Everyone has their own rules and preferences. However, a couple where only the woman plays with other women is a small segment of the swing community. If this is the way you play, you would be in a group that represents less than 5% of the swingers that I know in our area. I can understand that what you do on screen might be different than real life. If you do play full swap with couples, it would be strange not to have any friends who are willing to participate on the show, I would think.

 

I can understand that people would like to watch a show that more closely represents the way that they and their community engage in swinging. It doesn't mean they are judging you or saying you are wrong. It's just that if you are following the "one penis policy" you are not representing most swingers. When both members of a couple full-swap there are different dynamics with in the couple and between the four involved.

 

Basically, though this was something to talk about during the winter and people like to talk. When you go back and read this thread, most of it is not judging you and most is expressing the positives of what you present. It's nice that you are here on the board and I hope you do take the time to be part of our community and share your opinions on other threads.

 

I'd encourage you to start a thread to tell us what it's like to be celebrity swingers and how you got involved in being advocates and being on tv.

[GoldCoCouple 4,063]

Personally, I don't ever recall seeing this thread before or I would have said something then. "Swinging" is a very big umbrella that covers a great deal of sexual interests that involve a very small percentage of the population. If you participate in any of those activities (as coupleinmd79 listed: "full swap, soft swap, FFM-loving, bi, straight, or happen to like drizzling chocolate sauce on their friends' genitals"...and others), then we (and many others) would include them in as "swingers". If that same couple is willing to stand up and promote swinging in a positive light in front of anyone who is willing to listen (or watch), then they deserve the support and praise of all of us who participate in the collective group of sexual activities known as "swinging". It takes a great deal of commitment and belief to do this and withstand the harsh words and criticism of those who don't support or believe that people should be allowed to pursue this kind of "deviant" behavior. We should back and thank anyone willing to step out into the light and profess "this can be a good thing".

 

While we haven't watched "Swing" past the first season (now we have a reason to), we just want to say thanks for standing up and showing swinging in a positive light.

 

 

We also second the suggestion about starting a thread about being celebrity swingers.

[HolliandMichael 22]

Thank You for sharing. Michael and I aren't "bent out of shape," we are disappointed. Calling us celebrities is kind of you but we are people who have a passion and want to make sure this passion can be shared with the world and possibly, even understood and accepted.

 

As for how we play, like a few have said, it's irrelevant but to pigeon hole us or any couple is inappropriate. To us, the best representation of Swingers living in the Lifestyle is anyone that is willing to shed a positive light on who we are as a community and what options are available if you and your partner choose consensual non-monogamy. Sure there are pitfalls to the Lifestyle but one of the pitfalls shouldn't be getting judged by other Swingers, especially when they're incredibly off base.

 

We openly discuss how we play but it shouldn't matter that we're situational full swap. We don't need testimonials from the couples or single women we play with. It's not relevant and should be an issue.

 

Even if we were voyeurs and exhimitionists the positive should be acknowledged and not the negative. Again, it's not being bent out of shape saying if you don't like or agree with what we are saying the. come out, tell your world what you believe in, and be a positive voice. If you're not willing to do this than judging us or anyone isn't appropriate.

 

As for people not wanting to ask us things personally please know we welcome questions in an open forum, privately, on air, and during seminars we conduct. Communication is how we learn about each other and we enjoy the learning process.

 

It means a lot to us you cared enough to respond. Hope your Wednesday is going well and that you have a great week. XoXo- Holli and Michael

[HolliandMichael 22]

CoupleInMD79 thank you very much for your love and support. We will stick around. As we shared, this is less about us and more about our concern for discrimination with in the Lifestyle.

 

What you wrote is perfect in our eyes and hearts because (by the way I love chocolate sauce) you speak about acceptance. We have no desire for couples and single ladies we've played with to jump to our defense. They've offered in the past and we kindly ask them not to. It simply shouldn't matter.

 

If there's a message we're sharing you or anyone isn't sure about we welcome that discussion. If there's a message we're not sharing you or anyone feels we should please let us know.

 

The stigma places on consensual non-monogamy does not allow for a sex positive world and our hope is that together we can all create a little change. Change for good. Change for better. To us it can't happen if there's judgement of other in our own community because someone does this or that too much or not enough.

 

In our way there's only one right way to be a Swingers living in the Lifestyle and that's the way that works for each individual couple. It's about the 'we' not the 'me' and not even about the 'them.' First and foremost, to us, it's about you and your partner.

 

Again, thank you very much for your love and support. Not sure how to know from your screen name who you are but Michael and I hope to have the pleasure of seeing you again soon. When we do please let us know "it's you."

 

XoXo- Holli and Michael

[HolliandMichael 22]

GoldCoCouple thank you very much for your response, kind words, and for not judging us. We commit that even with the statements made about us by vanillas and sadly Swingers too, all of the harsh words and judgements that come our way, custody battles we had to fight to retain 50/50 custody of our one child each from first marriages, major job Michael lost, and the other negative things that have happened from being open and out as Swingers living in the Lifestyle we are in this for the long run.

 

The rewards we get are seeing legislation passed, judges not taking custody of children away from parents, and other things that all Swingers living in the Lifestyle benefit from. Michael has always said, "if someone that's a Swinger wants to be famous then good for them but if they want to help the community then good for us all." To us, being out there and vulnerable, we hope we've helped the community we love.

 

As for a thread about being celebrities...we don't see ourselves as celebrities so any suggestions on how to start a thread that would allow for questions and comments would be awesome and welcome. I guess if asked we consider ourselves lucky to be a voice for the community we love and seen as ambassadors looking to educate society that there shouldn't be a stigma on consensual non-monogamy (regardless of any label, name, or classification).

 

It's the inclusiveness of you (& CoupleMD and to a degree DaytonCoulle even though they used percentages) that allows vanillas and those on the fringe considering becoming a Swinger living in the Lifestyle comfort and security. If our community is seen as sex this and sex that does anyone really think we'll be understood and accepted?

 

We often share "people may come for the sex but they stay for the relationships." The friendships are incredible and often aren't based on anythin sexual. We also feel being a Swingers living in the Lifestyle is more of an attitude than an action (and yes, with the right attitude there can be a lot of action).

 

Again, thank you very much for sharing your thoughts and for not judging us or others. Says a lot about you and that you're openminded and accepting. XoXo- Holli and Michael

[eldiablo311 201]

We love this thread. Getting a huge kick out of Swingers claiming we're not real. Hysterical none of you had the courage to confront us in person, on radio, or even through social media. Maybe you forgot, if you have a question about Holli and Michael (us) the mature thing would be to ask Holli and Michael (us). As Swingers we ask society not to judge what we do but here you all sit in judgement of us. Shame on you. As for the definition of Swingers, allow us to suggest you look it up because nowhere does it claim full swap is what a Swinger must do to be a Swinger. Until you are in our bedroom every night to witness who we do or do not play with and since none of you had the maturity to ask us directly stop whining and start acting like adults. Further, maybe, just maybe you should recognize any type of swapping (for us at least) only occurs when there's attraction so claiming "they didn't play on TV" could be for a good reason. Lastly (because we are getting a kick out of this and absolutely will discuss this mid-September live on air) how many of you that posted are out to your friends, family, colleagues, and the world? We're not saying you have to be but at least we share with main stream society the benefits of consensual non-monogamy whereas you hide behind a screen claiming we're fake, frauds, cashing in, inexperienced, and not worthy of being the "faces of the Swinger community." Thank You for the laugh but we'll get back to sharing with the world who and what Swingers are and what all types of consensual non-monogamy is. Have a problem with that? Contact us. Challenge us. Confront us. Because the bottom line is it's a win for the community we love, Swingers and those in consensual non-monogamous relationships. Oh, by the way, sorry to burst your ego or bubble but Swing on Playboy TV was not scripted and did not cast actors. No matter what though, we aren't judging you like you judge us. We hope you are happy, healthy, and enjoying life. We are not angry but we are saddened that Swingers are judging other Swingers. What is it that we share on our radio show, on any TV show, or in any article we write or interview we do that is incorrect? Are Swingers not openminded? Are Swingers not wrongly stereotyped and judged? Is there or is there not a stigma of Swingers? Isn't communication important? Shouldn't consent be present whenever people are playing? Are you claiming one partner should "take one for the team?" Is Swinging not available to anyone but not right for everyone? Is sharing not caring? Is Swinging more about the 'me' and less about the 'we.'? Is there only one right way to Swing? So again we ask, what is it we share with the world that doesn't reflect the needs of our entire community? Without a doubt our travels have allowed us to meet and speak to over one hundred thousand people, some in and some out of the Lifestyle. Bottom line is, we listen and we listen and we listen. Then we share what we learn. Oh yes we play too but hearing about who we played with and what type of play occurred will not get the message out that the life we all live and love is ok and should not be judged. Nice that you feel your way is the only way. I'm sure you noted we posted as ourselves and it's easy to contact us. Do it. A healthy discussion and debate helps many and harms none as long as respect is given. We'll give you the respect you didn't give us. We'll listen and discuss this with you directly if you'd like and not behind your backs where you may or may not have the opportunity to 1) read and 2) respond.

Holli and Michael

 

Hello Holli and Michael! First off I want to say my wife and I love Playboy Swing and love seeing you guys on every episode! Every time we watch, we love seeing you guys! You guys and your show have sparked many interesting conversations between my wife and I and ultimately made it easier for us to discuss the topic and dip our toes into the lifestyle! Thank you for that! We hope the show continues for many seasons more!!!

 

I 100% agree with you guys that people shouldn't judge, everybody's relationship is different. My wife and I are into more of a "hotwifing" thing where I share her with other guys or girls, but I don't play with other girls...only with her. My wife isn't comfortable with me fucking other girls at this point, and I'm fine with that. This is what works for us, and makes us happy, but I also have felt some judgement in the past, at times, that what we are doing is "one sided swinging" and "will end badly". Here we are though several years later, still happily married!

 

Just want to say, keep up spreading the word and sparking conversations like you have been! It's been really interesting and fun for us in large part due to Playboy Swing and you guys!

 

Thanks!!!

 

P.S. - When does the next season start?

[AskMeOk 148]

If you define swinging as "a non-monogamous behavior in which both singles and partners in a committed relationship engage in sexual activities with others as a recreational or social activity." I'd say no.

 

In a previous marriage, Michael and wife were swingers.

 

However, in the current marriage, Holli just does girls and Michael only watches... or maybe only touches Holli. I'd say that Michel surrendered his swinger card.

 

I know there are people that disagree with me on this point, but if we were all sitting around watching, would we be swingers?

[GoldCoCouple 4,063]

If we were all sitting around watching our SO playing with someone else...I still think that qualifies as swinging. Whenever another person or persons are invited in to have sex, either with or without the original couple, I believe it qualifies as swinging (including same room sex, but excluding skype).

[AskMeOk 148]

If we were all sitting around watching our SO playing with someone else...I still think that qualifies as swinging. Whenever another person or persons are invited in to have sex, either with or without the original couple, I believe it qualifies as swinging (including same room sex, but excluding skype).

 

-er is "a suffix used in forming nouns designating persons from the object of their occupation or labor (hatter; tiler; tinner; moonshiner), ...", thus the English language expects one to be occupied in or "laboring" at an activity. Your example might define you as an onlooker, as you are engaged in that activity, but if one is not engaging in sex one, by definition, cannot be considered a swinger.

 

So, by definition, I think that would make (only) the SOs swingers.

[kikonkrome 843]

I think this is fascinating.

 

@askmeok I would guess the obvious answer to your dilemma and the -er relationship is the following question. Are you in a swing relationship if you are not participating in sex outside the relationship but give your consent? What happens if the consent is implicit, ie the partner knows about the sex but does not bring it up as an issue?

 

@GoldCoastCouple Are wives that 'allow' their husbands extra-marital 'swingers', or do you need to be present?

 

I think both of you bring up excellent points.

 

As far as the he watches, while she finds other girls to play with, it's not uncommon. But it is pretty annoying especially when she is really aggressive, or flirty with me. @Holli&Michael good luck with what you have going, but don't lead others on to be something you are not.

[AskMeOk 148]

I think this is fascinating.

 

@askmeok I would guess the obvious answer to your dilemma and the -er relationship is the following question. Are you in a swing relationship if you are not participating in sex outside the relationship but give your consent? What happens if the consent is implicit, ie the partner knows about the sex but does not bring it up as an issue?

 

Lacking consent, we have another word: cheater that seems to more correctly describe the situation. It follows the same rules of English grammar... they are cheaters because they are engaged in the act of cheating. Swinging implies knowledge and consent, but neither knowledge nor consent makes a swinger out of somebody not actually engaged in the physical act of non-monogamous sex. It is a fact that we've not had a very good word to describe this sort of behavior, where only one person of a couple participates.... we've got hot-wife and cuckquean for the girls and cuckold for the guys... I'm even seeing the term "hot-husband" bandied about....

 

Swinging involves knowledge and consent of non-monogamous sexual behavior, thus if you are not engaging in non-monogamous sex you cannot, by definition, be a swinger.

 

I guess I just can't work out, in my mind, the logic of calling a non-golfing wife a golfer because she said her husband could go golfing.

[kikonkrome 843]

There's a lot of truth to what you are saying. However I am not really sure if it plays out in the practice.

 

The first multiple partner 'orgy' my wife and I were in, involved two men that simply stood by the wall and watched while their wives participated. Never really understood what that was about?!? There are certainly many couples that go to the clubs where she participates and he watches. Just like the parties where he is looking for action and the women sit around talking.

 

Likewise there are many people that have marriages of convenience. They still exist. She let's him see who ever he wants and they sleep in separate bedrooms. I certainly know of a number of couples that do that. I have always wondered what 'she' does. Has her sex drive just dropped that much? Still I don't think it is cheating, but I must admit I don't really think it is swinging either.

 

So to me their is a grey area outside of the strict if 'they are not playing they are cheating areana

[AskMeOk 148]

kikonkrome said:

There's a lot of truth to what you are saying. However I am not really sure if it plays out in the practice.

 

The first multiple partner 'orgy' my wife and I were in, involved two men that simply stood by the wall and watched while their wives participated. Never really understood what that was about?!? There are certainly many couples that go to the clubs where she participates and he watches. Just like the parties where he is looking for action and the women sit around talking.

 

Likewise there are many people that have marriages of convenience. They still exist. She let's him see who ever he wants and they sleep in separate bedrooms. I certainly know of a number of couples that do that. I have always wondered what 'she' does. Has her sex drive just dropped that much? Still I don't think it is cheating, but I must admit I don't really think it is swinging either.

 

So to me their is a grey area outside of the strict if 'they are not playing they are cheating arena

 

OK, I'm not making myself clear.... I never meant to imply, nor do I believe "...if 'they are not playing they are cheating..."

 

My definition for swinging is a non-monogamous behavior, involving knowledge and consent of all parties, in which both singles and/or partners in a committed relationship engage in sexual activities with others as a recreational or social activity. A person engaging in this activity is a swinger. (As I write this, I realize there is a flaw in my definition, because it does not consider the "monogamous" forms of polyamory, polygamy, or polyandry. I guess I better look at that, huh?)

 

The singles and/or couples and/or moresomes involved in the non-monogamous sexual activity are swingers. Those watching are, well, just watching. This, of course, implies all participants have knowledge and consent of their respective partners. The watchers are part of an open marriage or open relationship.

 

I do believe, however, you cannot be considered a swinger, if there is not knowledge and consent...

 

My only point is that if you are not actually engaging in sexual activity, you are not a swinger. There are open marriages in which one or the other or both might not be considered a swinger (consider any one of the polyxxxxx situations). It seems to be a trivial distinction, but becomes important in discussing certain contexts of the lifestyle. I inject my own definition of "swinger" into the discussion because nearly every swinger website (including this one) has deleted the term "Swinger" from the site's dictionary and with it, the associated definition.

 

PS

Considering the combinations and permutations of all of the "poly" stuff, I might see why..... [my head hurts....]

[HolliandMichael 22]

eldiablo311 thank you very much for your love and kind words. Encouraging people to communicate (start a conversation) is what we believe is best for the community we all love. Without communication there is no way to spread the message that consensual non-monogamy is ok, healthy, and works allowing many to have long successful marriages/relationships. As for a season six of Swing on Playboy TV, there is no word yet. However, there's rumors about a "spinoff" type show. If we learn more and are allowed to share we will. We hope life is good and we have the pleasure of meeting you one day. Love, respect and appreciation- Holli and Michael

[HolliandMichael 22]

AskMeOk you couldn't be further from the truth. How sad is it you share information you have absolutely no clue about? Either you choose to make things up or you are a victim of a lot of gossip, not sure which. Either way, we still send love your way and only ask you look into what you claim before sharing it with others.

 

Michael was not a swinger with his first wife. Though they dabbled here and there with some ideas, he did not enter the lifestyle with her. Michael became a Swinger while in college at the age of 18 thanks to an amazing woman six years older than him.

 

As for who I "just do" again, you should check your facts. Who I do, when I do them, how often I do them, and whether or not I always do them is only the business of me, Michael, and the couples we play with. To be a Swinger there are no specific qualifications; it's much more of an attitude versus an action. The moment our community requires "actions" as the way to qualify to use a label is the moment mainstream society and those men and women on the fringe (thinking about entering the Lifestyle) get scared away. Who are you or anyone to decide what makes someone a Swinger?

 

We are a community asking society to not judge us and to accept us but here you are judging others. I find that sad. Also, apparently, you didn't read our above posts in this thread or you would not have made your incorrect claims. But, hey, it is what it is.

 

As for Michael only watching, thank you for that laugh. Once again I must remind you it's good to go directly to the source and ask versus believing others. As for Michael surrendering his Swinger card, since you don't know the facts, that is just a silly attempt to be funny on your part and it failed big. In a positive way I challenge you to come on air and share this philosophy about any swinger living in the lifestyle losing their "Swinger card" if they don't follow the ideals and rules you believe are what qualifies someone as a swinger.

 

Since we are firm believers there is no one right way to swing (except that which works for each given relationship) but you are convinced there is, come on the air with us during our live show five days a week on Playboy Radio and let's discuss this. If you haven't heard, we are respectful of the guests that come on the air with us as long as they are respectful of others. Our email is readily available by googling "Holli and Michael" and heading to our website . I can't list it here due to the rules of the site). From there our assistant or producer will reach out to you and schedule a time for you to call in.

 

Non-monogamy is a loaded term that can leave itself open to confusion. We believe there's monogamy and then consensual non-monogamy. Adding the word consensual first takes away a lot of mainstream societies ammunition if you or I or someone else isn't around to explain. When we all remember consent is not the absence of no, it's the presence of yes, then moving forward is healthy and most of the times much easier. We are in agreement with GoldCoCouple for many reasons but I'll point out the biggest reason, they are not defining swinging. GoldCoCouple is allowing the label to apply to anyone that participates in some form of play with others, consensually. Michael and I believe for the community we all love so much we need to stop classifying and segregating the community. Swinger is an umbrella term that makes many uncomfortable so why would you want to make those who "side with you" about consensual non-monogamy uncomfortable? Voyeurs, Exhibitionists, Soft Swap, Full Swap, or just those curious and excited to be around open minded people are always welcome where we hang out, because to us we are all in this together.

 

Again, regarding us, you didn't hurt us and the incorrect information you shared doesn't phase us. We are comfortable and confident, plus you gave us both a good laugh. It's Saturday and the weather is gorgeous so off to the beach for us and our unicorn. We don't go into great detail what we do sexually with couples or single women because to us being a swinger, living in the Lifestyle, participating in an open marriage, practicing polyamory, or enjoying BDSM (all of this is consensual non-monogamy) isn't about notches on a bedpost or bragging. To us and what works for us is being able to share physical pleasure with others and the satisfaction is what we all derive together.

 

Now, if you had claimed Holli and Michael play but are not polyamorous because they are 100% EMOTIONALLY monogamous you would have been correct. You didn't. Your post is 100% incorrect. Have a good rest of your weekend and please get your facts straight before you attempt to spread rumors about others. Love, respect, and appreciation- Holli and Michael

[AskMeOk 148]

Please cite the "incorrect information" that I shared.... Also, note that I never made ANY reference to you or Holli.... nor did I address ANYTHING other than usage of the English language. My wife and I have been faithful listeners and watchers of you two. No more. We just don't do personal attacks or drama, nor do we support those that do.

[AskMeOk 148]

...As for a season six of Swing on Playboy TV, there is no word yet...

 

As for any upcoming series on PlayboyTV... I find it somewhat amazing you weren't vetted to inorm the rest of us, but hey, I guess that didn't happen....

 

The local swinger community (and nationwide, too) has been approached and PBTV is looking for willing "couples, ages 21-45, who are in a committed relationship and curious about changing up their sexual lifestyle."

 

If interested, contact Richard Arreguin at CASTINGNEWSWINGERS@GMAIL.COM. This is a paid offer, but requires you to possess a US Passport.

[GoldCoCouple 4,063]

Holli: you can 'not swing' with Ms Gold while Michael and I watch any time you would like to

 

Passing judgement on others: Why are we wasting time even talking about this?

[cplnuswing 4,712]

What we've got here is the "labels debate", and this thread certainly isn't the first, and certainly won't be the last, where we debate ourselves silly on that without ever finding the answer. It's a question that has been around as long as swingers have been around, before actually, since logic would say that a label must first be defined before it can be applied, so I'm not expecting a group epiphany any time soon that settles it once and for all.

 

Getting back to the main point being made in the post that started this thread, I think it is only human than when someone is going to "represent" you, maybe fair maybe not, the closer you feel that person is to yourself, the more comfortable you are with and the better job you think they can do representing you. Is a unicorn a swinger? I think most would say yes if for no other reason than the swinging world sure does devote a lot of time and energy toward thinking about them, talking about them, and pursuing them. Do I think a unicorn really understands us (the personal us, mrs cplnuswing and I) as a full swap swinging couple? Honestly, not really, and the flip side of that is I'm sure we as a couple don't fully understand the path she walks in the lifestyle either. It's not that we don't want to or try to understand, it's just hard to do that on a really deep level when you have a hard time relating since you walk separate paths, parallel though they may be.

 

Now, do I think the unicorn understands me better than the little old church lady who lives a few doors over? Absolutely. Do I think the unicorn can do a better job of representing me? Absolutely. Would I rather have the unicorn representing me instead of the little old church lady? Absolutely. And now for maybe the controversial part...would I, as half of a full swap couple, given my druthers rather have another full swap couple representing me over the unicorn and the little old church lady? Absolutely.

 

That's not to say the unicorn might not make an outstanding advocate for swinging. Heck, the little old church lady might be one of those renegade types who wouldn't dream of doing something themselves but will defend to the death your freedom to do it. But, it's a progressive thing, and as a general rule, the closer someone is to where we are on that progression, the more comfortable we tend to feel.

 

Now that I've earned the ire of both unicorns and little old church ladies...I think it's important to remember that we all can't be everything to everybody all of the time, nor should we feel disappointment we can't or take offense to others recognition of that, and secondly but just as important, we all aren't the same, which is a great thing since it would be an insipidly boring world if that were the case, and that holds true for the swinging world too.

[NYFlirts 158]

As the person that started this thread, a few comments:

 

1) Zero disrespect meant to Holli & Michael. They are super awesome people and we're VERY happy to see them, and others, promoting an open and non-traditional lifestyle.

2) We're absolutely not judging what Holli and/or Michael do or don't do. We respect everyone from vanillas to swingers to poly to kink and have really good friends in all these camps and so many others!

3) @cplnuswing wrote a wonderful reply above to exactly what we were originally wondering when posting this thread. If Holli & Michael are representing "Swingers" (and I'm not saying that they are or that's their goal)... but *IF* they are, then all-things-being-equal, I think it would be awesome to have a full-swap couple that represents the majority of "swingers". Again, what they are doing is awesome, but in our opinion, it doesn't fully represent what most within this community and outside of the community would define a "swinging couple".

 

Again, no judgement and no negative feelings, just a discussion topic that is one of many on this really unique and interesting website / forum for swingers.