Coming out of the closet

[intuition897 2,179]

How does everyone feel about the idea of coming out about their lifestyle choice?

 

We've been out of the lifestyle for a while now, but still planning to get our social life back. I'd like Mr. intuition and I to talk about how "out" we want to be. We're due to talk about a lot of stuff; we're not the same people who stopped swinging so many years ago. We're the same in theory, and we're okay, but our communication has gotten a lot more lax because...well...frankly it hasn't been needed as much without the rigours of swinging. We still touch base, but our life consists of wake up, go to work, come home, do chores, go to bed, lather rinse and repeat. Weekends are more like: get up late, do more chores, drink a bit, go to bed, repeat, then start into the work-week routine. That's...about it. I know, it's fucking awful. But there it is. No wonder we got so depressed and fat. That's an existence, it's not living. We looked at each other and mutually agreed it was stupid and life is sailing right past us. These bodies ain't gettin' any younger. So, time to use it while you got it.

 

Anyway, one of the things I've been thinking of lately is how we want to handle our "out"ness. If it was up to me, I'd say fuck the world and just hang it out there for whoever wants to see it. Why not? It's part of who I really am, and anyone who judges me for it doesn't deserve my company. I wouldn't advertise it, but I wouldn't be shy about voicing my point of view. It's hard when your coworkers are all circling the water cooler, roasting that other notorious coworker from that other department who has the failing open relationship,and going on and on scoffing about what an idiot she is and how pathetic it all was. I had to bite my tongue to not pipe up and say exactly why their relationship was going wrong, and how they could've fixed things so maybe it would actually work. After having been on SwingerBoard for as long as I have, you've seen pretty much every scenario 3x over. It's easy to see patterns and red flags all over the place. I feel I'd have an interesting and unique perspective, one worth soliciting for my view of things in their conversations. We all know that won't happen because 99% of the population would take a collective horrified gasp at my revelation about my status as a swinger. That's all they'd see, and they couldn't get over the sex part. If they could just, you know, kind of let that part go, they'd see we have valuable insight to offer.

 

So has anyone out there come out at work? With friends? Family? The world at large? What has been your experience?

[love2dp 52]

It's funny you mention this. I'm a single guy, 48 and I'm new to swinging. Always had a traditional vanilla relationships. But now that I have been single for about a year and a half out of a 15+ yr relationship, I am done with a traditional relationship. It's swinging play fun period. Just need to find my female partner in crime like everybody likes to say. If I stay single for the rest of my life, so be it. I have a shit load of hobbies I like to do. It's not like I have time for one anyway. That's why a good FWB would be ideal for me. Someone I can swing with and share too. I will only ever lust after women. I am Done with falling and being in love. My ideal woman doesn't exist, and I couldn't land her if she did. So play only, not giving my love anymore to be stomped on.

[Alura 2,774]

I can suggest a way to "come out," Intuition. Write a book. That'll do it.

[sunbuckus 3,567]

I feel the same exact way, intuition! As for telling others, Mr. Sun has told a couple of friends. I've let a couple of online only friendships know but otherwise, my mouth is shut. We've talked about if we're asked by family and we won't lie if asked directly but the question has never arisen. I don't think anyone would suspect us of being swingers, to be honest.

[MrDiscover 802]

We also have this rule of 'we won't lie if asked directly' and it has been asked twice. By a friend and by a son (!). Both handled it rather well.

[kikonkrome 844]

Dan Savage recently had a statement in his pod cast regarding the three 'layers' of people's sexuality.

 

The first layer is how you identify to the world. In our case a rather vanilla monogamous couple, kids, pet's and home. Perhaps a bit more adult adventurous than most, but still I have had a number of people share with me about more than I would share would share with them.

 

The second layer is how you present to yourself. In our case a more sexually adventurous couple that really enjoy a kinky active sex life that includes a bit of b-sexuality and BDSM play.

 

What you actually do. In our case again is probably somewhere in between the above two.

 

This did help explain a lot of what I have seen at sex clubs, and basically in the alternative lifestyle scene.

 

Everyone has their own levels of the above three, identifying as straight, when in fact they act out homo-sexually, would be a very real but extreme version of this.

 

Basically you get to choose where you want to be in the above three spectra.

 

Finally in a work place setting, what have you got to gain by 'coming out'? Perhaps to some friends and others close to you, but I am not sure what would be gained by a discussion like this in a professional sense?

[SW_PA_Couple 4,024]

If it happens to "just come out", we will not deny it. A couple of the (grown) kids have figured it out or have a strong suspicion that something is up. No plan for a preemptive strike.

[Alura 2,774]

It's really a liberating feeling to know that it just doesn't matter what people think.

[intuition897 2,179]

Finally in a work place setting, what have you got to gain by 'coming out'? Perhaps to some friends and others close to you, but I am not sure what would be gained by a discussion like this in a professional sense?

 

Realistically, I would have nothing to gain. It is just a little frustrating to have this part of myself that feels so very normal and harmless forcibly kept under lock and key around people with whom I spend most of my day. I guess it just feels inauthentic. But no, they can't handle it. And because it doesn't fall under the LGBTQ umbrella, it wouldn't be recognized as a "protected" status in the workplace. So it's not exactly like coming out to your coworkers as gay or lesbian. This is like coming out as deviant, right?

 

It's not like I want to regale them with my weekend adventures (if we were to have any, that is). That's none of their business. But I wouldn't mind if they knew generally that, no, we don't have much value for jealousy or monogamy or the like, and that we judge the health of our marriage on how honest and vulnerable and conversely, how unconditionally loving and accepting we can be. Yeah, so we're non-monogamous, what's your point? Pass the peas. I just don't want it to be such a big deal, that's all.

[econobiker 165]

IMHO, the vanilla workplace typically can't handle swingers. I work and have worked in a traditional industry (think factories making widgets) and most folks are still not even open if they're LG not even adding the BTQ to it. Yes I've worked with LG folks but nobody wears it on their shirts. It's not like some work industries or environments that attract "creative" types.

 

I was only "out" to another swinger in one prior job (than what I'm working now) when I encountered a divorced guy who managed a different department at the club that Red, her friends, and I were at. I didn't even introduce him to Red because I knew she'd been freaked out and I didn't want to have to explain to the other friends. I told her later after that evening. Then I would occasionally encounter him at work and we'd trade stories about parties and clubs especially since he traveled more and would hit swing clubs in different cities when on the road. I tried to invite him to our parties but our schedules never worked out. He even hipped me to a single woman at our company who'd he seen at the club a couple times but I never approached her nor knew if he discussed me with her because she never approached me.

 

There was a BBW woman who gave off a "swinger vibe" in HR at another job who always vacationed with her husband in the "Caribbean" but I never found out if they went to Hedonism resort or somewhere else.

 

I think about it in terms of how coworkers would accept any "over-the-top" vanilla "geek" hobbies like science fiction cosplay, or military re-enacters, or even something like hardcore bird watching. If they'd freak out about those then no go about swinging.

 

Have I wanted to be "out" about the swinging -yes. But I also respect Red's desire for privacy.

[BuiltForSin 66]

We do not talk openly about it with people not in the lifestyle. However when we go out to a club - In our city there is a large gay bar that is very hetero-friendly and has become the defacto location for couples to meet - we let the PDA fly and don't worry what the world thinks or if we are seen by people we know. So it is not out in the open but if people find out about it I don't lose any sleep.

[EastInWest 1,524]

To me, this topic is off-limits not because you're doing anything wrong, but because you can't know what's inside someone else's mind. You can't know who will have a prejudice that will come back to bite you, or who will use that kind of information to manipulate someone's prejudices, etc. Even if a coworker is really a friend and can be trusted to handle personal information respectfully, you can't be sure if they won't accidentally develop a big mouth at a later date.

 

There's the religiously-oriented coworker who might not be able to trust me if they found out how far my personal life diverged from their ideas. There's the female coworker who would be uncomfortable because she's naturally friendly and flirty and might be afraid of giving me the wrong idea. There's the female coworker who, once she heard I was interested in that sort of thing, might actually be offended if I didn't get the wrong idea.

 

Same reason that actually having sex with a coworker is usually a bad idea, legal problems aside. Purely in principle, I have no problem with the idea. If I was single, I certainly wouldn't kick my boss out of bed. I also know other people may not be on the same page, even if they insist they are. I wouldn't know until it's too late and they've been hurt or, worse (especially if it was my boss), taken some vindictive action to get back at me for whatever I inadvertently did wrong.

 

So we all just accept the "inauthentic" social convention whereby we consider it respectful to pretend that we are all asexual at work. Being too honest would get very messy.

[sunbuckus 3,567]

For me, every time a thread like this pops up, it makes me sad that we, as a society, put up these invisible constructs that results in human beings feeling like they have to hide, be shameful, apologetic, or lie--to themselves or society--for being the person that they are.

[BPandAP 19]

For me, every time a thread like this pops up, it makes me sad that we, as a society, put up these invisible constructs that results in human beings feeling like they have to hide, be shameful, apologetic, or lie--to themselves or society--for being the person that they are.

 

This is true on more than one topic. I work in an extremely religious company. While I have never claimed or agreed to any religion I most definitely do not put it out there that I am an agnostic. Being a swinger isn't going to come up at all. But neither does the topic of sex. AP has it much easier. She works with mostly other women. While it hasn't specifically been asked of her they do know we are pretty adventurous when it comes to sex. While her coworkers know we are pretty open and kinky we believe they would act completely different if the actual term "swinger" was used.

 

It's odd but it would be more accepted to cheat on a spouse than to be labeled swinger for some reason.

[intuition897 2,179]

It's odd but it would be more accepted to cheat on a spouse than to be labeled swinger for some reason.

 

Because cheaters, at least, have the "decency" to concede that, despite their transgressions, monogamy is still the one true path to marital bliss. They at least have the decency to be remorseful. We swingers feel no such compunction. We have embraced the blasphemy and held a toilet-bowl-side funeral for monogamy. It doesn't compute for them.

[intuition897 2,179]

For me, every time a thread like this pops up, it makes me sad that we, as a society, put up these invisible constructs that results in human beings feeling like they have to hide, be shameful, apologetic, or lie--to themselves or society--for being the person that they are.

 

It IS sad. I don't feel any shame at all. I have no bad feelings about what we do. I will still get a knee-jerk guilt reaction whenever I imagine what my Mom would say, but I know it's just a lot of hardcore religious upbringing making its scar tissue known. But I sure wish everyone could see the world the way we see it. Be a lot less fighting and a lot more fucking going on.

[sexyinakilt 47]

We like more fucking. I got my gf a card for valentine's day that said you be you,I'll be me,we'll be us. If only it was that simple in the real world.

[GoldCoCouple 4,066]

The TRUTH...they can't handle the truth!

 

Some jobs have morals clauses and that prevents people from coming out. When it has to do with sex, there are just too many people who can't handle even taking about sex with their spouses, let alone the world at large. It's unfortunate that something that is so much fun and exciting, that so much of society focuses on (just look at almost any advertisement or TV show) is still so taboo. The citizens of the United States think that they have so much freedom and are so progressive...HA! They can't even handle the thought of topless beaches that are so common place in Europe. I won't even bring up England's 'page 3' girls (oops, I guess I brought it up). Sex is something that only happens in the dark and in secret because so many people can't handle the thought of it being anything else but dark and secret. Sad, but true...

[JustAskJulie 2,595]

It sounds like we are in similar boats. We've also been out of the lifestyle for a while now for a variety of reasons. But, it's in my blood in many ways. That said it's still rare for me to be "out" about it in my day-to-day life. Even some of my closest friends don't really know about my involvement and I often talk around things. A big part of it for me is having my mother just down the street and also living in a VERY conservative part of the world.

 

That said, I'd love to be able to just be open about it. If/when conversations about open marriages do come up I'm open with my opinion, I give input whether or not it's really asked for and I defend people's right to make the choices they make. I also speak up and point out where I think people make bad choices. But, that's me and I do that with all things whether we are talking about swinging or not.

[asncpl 729]

The TRUTH...they can't handle the truth!

 

Some jobs have morals clauses and that prevents people from coming out. When it has to do with sex, there are just too many people who can't handle even taking about sex with their spouses, let alone the world at large. It's unfortunate that something that is so much fun and exciting, that so much of society focuses on (just look at almost any advertisement or TV show) is still so taboo. The citizens of the United States think that they have so much freedom and are so progressive...HA! They can't even handle the thought of topless beaches that are so common place in Europe. I won't even bring up England's 'page 3' girls (oops, I guess I brought it up). Sex is something that only happens in the dark and in secret because so many people can't handle the thought of it being anything else but dark and secret. Sad, but true...

 

So much of this is cultural. My brother-in-law is German expat living in the U.S., and his family and most of his friends, vanilla or not, in Germany know that he and my sister are swingers. Not a big deal at all.

 

I, for one, tend to compartmentalize my friends anyway. Perhaps I'm lazy and don't want to explain myself, but do we really tell our vanilla friends about every vanilla thing we do? I have friends who share my love of food and trying new restaurants, which I know some of my other friends would see me as a food snob. So I don't share that part of my life with them but I still enjoy doing other things or talking about different topics with them. And for people like coworkers or acquaintances, I am generally pretty private and don't share much of my life with them anyway.

[two4youinswva 3,068]

I, for one, tend to compartmentalize my friends anyway. Perhaps I'm lazy and don't want to explain myself, but do we really tell our vanilla friends about every vanilla thing we do? I have friends who share my love of food and trying new restaurants, which I know some of my other friends would see me as a food snob. So I don't share that part of my life with them but I still enjoy doing other things or talking about different topics with them. And for people like coworkers or acquaintances, I am generally pretty private and don't share much of my life with them anyway.

 

Same here. There are so many people in my life (especially work life) that I don't want to know who they're fucking or anything about their sex life at all.

 

We're out to people that can handle it and have asked us. We're not to others. If they can't handle it and ask, we're likely to respond with "Why, do you want to swing with us or something? We're not judging, just asking".

[SA_NewtoLS 163]

The TRUTH...they can't handle the truth!

 

Some jobs have morals clauses and that prevents people from coming out. When it has to do with sex, there are just too many people who can't handle even taking about sex with their spouses, let alone the world at large. It's unfortunate that something that is so much fun and exciting, that so much of society focuses on (just look at almost any advertisement or TV show) is still so taboo. The citizens of the United States think that they have so much freedom and are so progressive...HA! They can't even handle the thought of topless beaches that are so common place in Europe. I won't even bring up England's 'page 3' girls (oops, I guess I brought it up). Sex is something that only happens in the dark and in secret because so many people can't handle the thought of it being anything else but dark and secret. Sad, but true...

 

God this is so true. As in my other post, wanting to talk to and tell other people about what I did is hard. I really wish it were more socially acceptable and I could tell people. My best friend and his girlfriend can never, ever find out. She is one of those that can not even talk about sex, even with her boyfriend. He has confided in me that while they do have sex, afterwards she basically jumps out of bed and goes to take a shower, then comes back to bed fully clothed in her long sleeve flannel PJ's. It seems she can barely even handle the act of having sex out of wedlock.

[findinganswers 369]

We had the situation that our friends came out to us. More like they cam out to my wife first and she gave the green light to come out to me. I am still nervous about people know what we have done or are doing. There is another couple in our crowd that has also played. We have an idea of who they are and I wonder if they know we have broken the ice. Though I have enjoyed the new sex, I am not ready for the world to know.

[GoldCoCouple 4,066]

...She is one of those that can not even talk about sex, even with her boyfriend. He has confided in me that while they do have sex, afterwards she basically jumps out of bed and goes to take a shower, then comes back to bed fully clothed in her long sleeve flannel PJ's. It seems she can barely even handle the act of having sex out of wedlock.

 

I have a name for women like that: EX-girlfriend

[SA_NewtoLS 163]

I have a name for women like that: EX-girlfriend

 

Well, she's not my girlfriend and my friend seems to love her. They have been together for a few years now and she is otherwise such a great person. Very friendly and outgoing, gets along with all of his friends which is far more than can be said of some of his previous girlfriends. He also gets along with all her friends and her friends boyfriends. They are really great together and other than normal couple fights over little things it's the only complaint he really has about her. I admit, it sounds like something that would possibly be a deal breaker for me as well, but they connect on a totally different level, so I dunno.

[EastInWest 1,524]

Because cheaters, at least, have the "decency" to concede that, despite their transgressions, monogamy is still the one true path to marital bliss. They at least have the decency to be remorseful. We swingers feel no such compunction. We have embraced the blasphemy and held a toilet-bowl-side funeral for monogamy. It doesn't compute for them.

 

I'm not sure it's about having "the decency to be remorseful" as much as it is that people just tend to frame gender relations bilaterally, and see sex as being tied to relationships and those relationships all about trusting people not to stray. "He" is with "she".

 

Double-dipping is an easy form of cheating to understand. "He" is with "she #1", and also, secretly, "he" is with "she #2". People "cheat" all kinds of systems by double-dipping: pensions, hourly billings, etc., where if the duplicity is discovered there will be hell to pay. We all know what to do with that information.

 

Most people don't have a context for saying that "he #1" is with "she #1" and "she #1" is also with "he #2" and sometimes "he #2's wife" and it's all fine with everybody.

[intuition897 2,179]

I'm not sure it's about having "the decency to be remorseful" as much as it is that people just tend to frame gender relations bilaterally, and see sex as being tied to relationships and those relationships all about trusting people not to stray. "He" is with "she".

 

Double-dipping is an easy form of cheating to understand. "He" is with "she #1", and also, secretly, "he" is with "she #2". People "cheat" all kinds of systems by double-dipping: pensions, hourly billings, etc., where if the duplicity is discovered there will be hell to pay. We all know what to do with that information.

 

Most people don't have a context for saying that "he #1" is with "she #1" and "she #1" is also with "he #2" and sometimes "he #2's wife" and it's all fine with everybody.

 

 

Looking your partner dead in the eye and lying to their face, knowing full well that they trust you, is not the same as pulling the tags off one's mattress. Swinging and cheating are polar opposites, with sex being their only commonality.

 

What I meant was, people are willing to overlook cheating (which, to me, is mind-boggling) because hey! nobody's perfect, right? At least they admit they're wrong for fucking other people. We, on the other hand, say there's nothing at all wrong with what we do. It flies in the face of everything they hold near and dear about marriage: marriage = no fucking other people. It doesn't matter if you treat each other like shit, it doesn't matter if you neglect one another for fifty years, it doesn't even matter that much if you slipped and fucked somebody else as long as you're really, really sorry (you got caught). And it doesn't matter how amazing my marriage is to my husband; if we're fucking other people, by their definition, our so-called "marriage" sucks and in some eyes, we're not even married at all.

 

Their point is that you admit that not fucking other people is the sacred bond that glues your marriage together. Swingers reject that whole line of thinking and it causes them to have to rethink everything they've built their 50-year marriage on. And that's bloody inconvenient.

[GoldCoCouple 4,066]

Swinging, in spite of other peoples thoughts or opinions, is actually about honesty. If an action involves lying, even if it is only lying by omission (leaving important key information out), it is cheating. Period, end of subject.

[econobiker 165]

Because cheaters, at least, have the "decency" to concede that, despite their transgressions, monogamy is still the one true path to marital bliss. They at least have the decency to be remorseful. We swingers feel no such compunction. We have embraced the blasphemy and held a toilet-bowl-side funeral for monogamy. It doesn't compute for them.

 

"...embraced the blasphemy and held a toilet-bowl-side funeral for monogamy." I love that quote

 

Swinging, in spite of other peoples thoughts or opinions, is actually about honesty. If an action involves lying, even if it is only lying by omission (leaving important key information out), it is cheating. Period, end of subject.

 

Yes, Red agrees that honesty is the key function in the relationship.

 

Also, to be honest,I remembered that we are semi-out to a female relative who, while hetero herself, is a big supporter for LGBTQ causes.

 

I'm fully out about swinging to my best buddy from growing up with whom I was the wingman for getting girls in high school and later women in college. Good enough friend for me to be his best man in his wedding (22 years for him & his wife now) and then for him to be my best man in BOTH my weddings (including having my back during my divorce). Actually I was out about the swinging to him before getting married to Red. Immediately before that wedding, he actually asked me if a bachelor party with strippers or going to a strip club would be redundant given my new lifestyle activities, to which I laughingly concurred, "Yes, very much not needed now." Another thing is that he was the lady's man while we were growing up (to my wingman role) and the roles have reversed due to my swinging.

[EastInWest 1,524]

Looking your partner dead in the eye and lying to their face, knowing full well that they trust you, is not the same as pulling the tags off one's mattress. Swinging and cheating are polar opposites, with sex being their only commonality.

 

What I meant was, people are willing to overlook cheating (which, to me, is mind-boggling) because hey! nobody's perfect, right? At least they admit they're wrong for fucking other people. We, on the other hand, say there's nothing at all wrong with what we do. It flies in the face of everything they hold near and dear about marriage: marriage = no fucking other people. It doesn't matter if you treat each other like shit, it doesn't matter if you neglect one another for fifty years, it doesn't even matter that much if you slipped and fucked somebody else as long as you're really, really sorry (you got caught)...

 

I misunderstood your point as simply sitting in judgment of swinging because swingers are "supposed to feel bad". I see what you're saying and yes, I think we mean the same thing: it raises uncomfortable questions about your own assumptions.

[freddymike 18]

I keep my sex life and my religious life separate. Just like I keep my business and social life separate. and my

rock n roll star and cup size a sub shemale size 20 adult video chat star lives separate. It's just the way

the world has to work for some reason. The 6 worlds never collide, and if they do they do. I like to be

appreciated for what I am. Having people compliment me on my anatomy while performing is feedback from

the hours and hours I put in at the gym and working on my body and health. Nobody really wants the

whole real deal win win situation shabang any more.