Consent - explicit or assumed?

[Fundamental Law 2,903]

This thread is inspired by the horrible non-LS story of a rape on a University campus. You have surely seen the story of a varsity athlete having sex with an unconscious woman who was visiting her sister, a student at the University.

 

We have been favorably impressed with the adherence to the "golden rule"--no means no--in the LS. It seems widely respected and the occasional attempt to violate that rule we have witnessed is quickly met with enforcement by any and all present. Vanillas see this safety as paradoxical while those in the LS see it as foundational.

 

There is a line of thought that perhaps the golden rule ought to involve explicit consent. Instead of "no means no" the rule should be "yes means yes". Certainly this is being promulgated in vanilla settings.

 

Should we be seeking permission instead of pushing to the point of refusal?

 

If you think we should asking consent, how do you do so while keeping it "hot"?

 

If you the think we are okay with no means no, how have you dealt with unwanted advances, before and after "No!" ?

[Alura 2,775]

Alcohol played an important role in the incident to which you refer, Fundamental Law. It is indeed one of mankind's worst drugs.

 

I think Sherman (Was it Sheridan?) put it best: "I know how to deal with the Indian Problem. Give 'em whiskey! Kills 'em like flies!"

 

Although rape is a terrible thing, I think it's a pity (and not effective) to give life-long punishment to two people whose worst offense was not knowing when to stop (and when to not start) drinking. The young woman apparently agreed somewhat since she asked the court to be lenient with her rapist.

 

A couple can "keep it hot" if the man waits until the woman shouts, "Fuck Me! Now!" That also means, "Yes."

[Lionheart72 2,191]

Should we be seeking permission instead of pushing to the point of refusal?

 

If you think we should asking consent, how do you do so while keeping it "hot"?

 

If you the think we are okay with no means no, how have you dealt with unwanted advances, before and after "No!" ?

 

I think it depends very much on the dynamic... but more often than not, my experience of the LS starts with people asking permission. "Do you want to play?" "Can I touch you?" "Can I touch her?" Even in the midst of our wildest gangbangs, everyone involved has always been very polite about consent.

[Lionheart72 2,191]

Although rape is a terrible thing, I think it's a pity (and not effective) to give life-long punishment to two people whose worst offense was not knowing when to stop (and when to not start) drinking.

 

I don't give a rat's ass how much you've had to drink. You kill someone while driving drunk, you're a killer. You rape someone while drunk, you're a rapist. You don't want to face the consequences of those actions, don't do them.

[AskMeOk 148]

Fundamental Law said:

There is a line of thought that perhaps the golden rule ought to involve explicit consent. Instead of "no means no" the rule should be "yes means yes". Certainly this is being promulgated in vanilla settings.

 

Should we be seeking permission instead of pushing to the point of refusal?

 

No, common sense dictates that once at a sexual venue.... *something* is expected to go on.....

 

Fundamental Law said:

If you think we should asking consent, how do you do so while keeping it "hot"?

 

You simply can't.

 

I think it was nearly 45 years ago that (Amherst College, I think) came up with the genius plan that you have to ask at every step. May I hold your hand? May I kiss you? May I touch your arm? Can I touch your breast? Ad nauseum..... I thought, at the time, I'd be looking for FWB in another city, if not state.... simply too much work, too contrived, and devoid of spontaneity.

 

Considering all sexual advances as assault is just silly. Turning lovemaking into a ridiculous farce of "Mother May I?" is equally ridiculous.

[GoldCoCouple 4,068]

In the L/S, I think the attitude already is 'yes means yes'. We've never had a problem with anyone doing something that wasn't usually ask about in advance. On the rare occasions that someone doesn't ask, a simple 'please don't do that' or anything else along that line has always put a stop to it. While there are exceptions to every rule, and not everyone in the L/S (as in all of humanity) is polite and asks, they seem to be rarer here than in vanilla life (and if they are here and rude, they usually are quickly found out and excluded: returned to vanilla life).

[Fundamental Law 2,903]

Alcohol played an important role in the incident to which you refer, Fundamental Law. It is indeed one of mankind's worst drugs....

 

To be certain, alcohol can be a problem. Yet there is alcohol at every house party we have attended. All of our LS friends drink. Yet consent seems to be managed reasonably well in the LS situations we have been party to, even when alcohol is present.

[Fundamental Law 2,903]

No, common sense dictates that once at a sexual venue.... *something* is expected to go on.....

 

That is true. At a casino, gambling is expected to go on yet others are not allowed to reach into your wallet and put your money on a number next to a roulette wheel.

[Fundamental Law 2,903]

In the L/S, I think the attitude already is 'yes means yes'. We've never had a problem with anyone doing something that wasn't usually ask about in advance. On the rare occasions that someone doesn't ask, a simple 'please don't do that' or anything else along that line has always put a stop to it. While there are exceptions to every rule, and not everyone in the L/S (as in all of humanity) is polite and asks, they seem to be rarer here than in vanilla life (and if they are here and rude, they usually are quickly found out and excluded: returned to vanilla life).

 

Indeed, this is our perception--that the LS community is already much closer to "yes means yes" than it is to "no means no". Observation at house parties, our recent swinger cruise and similar venues suggest that people in the LS understand and effectively respond to "bids"--physical bids such as gentle touch in the hot tub and verbal bids such as 'would you like to go upstairs?'-- with equal aplomb. Moving to the other side of the hot tub is equivalent to saying "no thank you", both are socially graceful and neither, in our view, is activating the "no means no!" tenet.

 

You are surely correct that there are occasional pests who would explain their behavior as mere persistence. As you point out, they either reject or are rejected from the LS fairly quickly. Boorish behaviors exist everywhere. They are not tolerated in the LS to the degree that they are in the vanilla world--one reason why we like our LS friends as much as we do.

[funcoupledayton 2,708]

AskMeOk said:

I think it was nearly 45 years ago that (Amherst College, I think) came up with the genius plan that you have to ask at every step. May I hold your hand? May I kiss you? May I touch your arm? Can I touch your breast? Ad nauseum..... I thought, at the time, I'd be looking for FWB in another city, if not state.... simply too much work, too contrived, and devoid of spontaneity.

 

Considering all sexual advances as assault is just silly. Turning lovemaking into a ridiculous farce of "Mother May I?" is equally ridiculous.

 

It was Antioch College in Ohio.

 

I know what you mean about asking every step, but there are ways to ask in a sexy way. These Planned Parenthood consent videos are really good:

[funcoupledayton 2,708]

For me, because I have sons who are pre-teens, one of the biggest issues is how to make sure my sons don't turn out like the rapist. I do my best to educate them and impress morals on them, they've been through an excellent sex ed program, but my oldest constantly tells me I am old school and I don't know anything. I really worry.

 

Sorry, that was off topic really, but just weighing on me so heavily.

 

Anyhow, I do notice some people in the lifestyle do tend to take liberties, being very handsy, not reading body language, ect. But, if you tell them to stop, or move away they will. And believe me, those people get a reputation and get talked about. People say they don't kiss and tell, but if there is someone who is a creep it becomes widely known fast (at least here in our community).

 

There is only one person (husband of a couple) I had a problem with. He was a complete asshole. If you told him, "Stop it you're making me uncomfortable," he would laugh. I was scared of him and would never be alone with him even in a crowded room. But, the lifestyle kind of polices itself. We would pass it on to friends and the couple would not get invites. I had no qualms about telling everyone I knew how he acted. One night the couple was at an open invite party. My friend (a girl) saw what he was doing and told him, "I can punch you in the face or beat your ass, you choose." They left immediately. Fortunately the wife divorced him and he is no longer in the lifestyle.

 

Personally, I am fine with someone putting their arm around me or touching my back or arm without asking permission. Anything else people usually do ask or proceed in a manner that it would be easy to say no thanks or move away. I think you can get consent to kiss someone through body language.

[Alura 2,775]

To be certain, alcohol can be a problem. Yet there is alcohol at every house party we have attended. All of our LS friends drink. Yet consent seems to be managed reasonably well in the LS situations we have been party to, even when alcohol is present.

 

Alcohol is not the problem, Fundamental Law. Drinking too much of it is. When two people imbibe so much that one doesn't know what is happening and the other doesn't know how "out of it" she is, normal standards of "consent" don't apply.

 

I'm quite satisfied that the young woman would not have been lying behind a dumpster and the young man would not have been raping her had either one been sober.

 

Such action is not to be condoned, of course, but imprisonment is not the answer.

 

One of the major factors in this case, it seems, would be the "drink 'til you drop!" culture at Fraternity parties. That hasn't changed since I was in college. It needs to. Drinking too much of the white man's poison water is not cool.

 

You seem to make the point that being drunk provides no acceptable excuse, and I would agree with that. I was at a party in London many years ago when a young man got drunk. (His excuse for that was that his mother had died the previous year.) His first act was to beat a stoned hippy, then to threaten him with the jagged edge of a wine bottle he had broken on a table, until the drunk's girlfriend intervened. Waking up on the floor the next day, the drunk was full of apologies. "I was drunk!" he pleaded, as if that provided any excuse he needed. I don't buy it.

[AskMeOk 148]

Alura said:

...Drinking too much of the white man's poison water is not cool...

 

I agree with most of what you said, sadly, it was tainted with the above statement, which was uncalled for, racist, and historically inaccurate.

[Alura 2,775]

AskMeOk said:

I agree with most of what you said, sadly, it was tainted with the above statement, which was uncalled for, racist, and historically inaccurate.

 

I apologize if my wording offended you, AskMeOk. My family has always called whiskey "the white man's poison water." We never thought of it as racist, it just described the people who brought it here, which is why I don't believe it's "historically inaccurate." I'm going to leave my response at that because I fear I'd tread too close to our "no politics" rule on this board.

 

My son and I, minutes ago, ended a 1.5 hour discussion about this case. We didn't approach a good answer.

 

EDIT: I've read more about this case. The victim has written a letter, long but meaningful, about the whole incident including the rape, the investigation, and the trial, all of which were horrible for her. The letter is not a pleasant read, folks, but I urge all to read it: Here Is The Powerful Letter The Stanford Victim Read Aloud To Her Attacker

 

If you get a chance, V.P. Biden has written an answer to her letter. It is powerful as well.

[kikonkrome 844]

I think it depends very much on the dynamic... but more often than not, my experience of the LS starts with people asking permission. "Do you want to play?" "Can I touch you?" "Can I touch her?" Even in the midst of our wildest gangbangs, everyone involved has always been very polite about consent.

 

That has not entirely been our experience.

 

No, common sense dictates that once at a sexual venue.... *something* is expected to go on.....

 

 

 

You simply can't.

 

I think it was nearly 45 years ago that (Amherst College, I think) came up with the genius plan that you have to ask at every step. May I hold your hand? May I kiss you? May I touch your arm? Can I touch your breast? Ad nauseum..... I thought, at the time, I'd be looking for FWB in another city, if not state.... simply too much work, too contrived, and devoid of spontaneity.

 

Considering all sexual advances as assault is just silly. Turning lovemaking into a ridiculous farce of "Mother May I?" is equally ridiculous.

 

I would disagree with this. People should be allowed to go to a swing club and just look with being 'expected' to perform. In regards to asking all the way, I have done it, and it was sexy, hot and fun kinda tease. Then she told me to STFU and go. It was all very giggly and fun.

 

It was Antioch College in Ohio.

 

I know what you mean about asking every step, but there are ways to ask in a sexy way. These Planned Parenthood consent videos are really good:

 

huh...look what the internet brought.

 

I think this incident has just shined a light on an age old dark side of college. Frankly I had, 'friends' in college who told me about outrageous and similar kinda things they did. I stopped an 18 year old friend from doing something similar and got the girl home. Hell an unconscious girl rape scene is a major joke in 'Animal House'.

 

We have certainly had experience where people touch first and wait for no, rather than ask first. I know hard to guess but it is my wife they want to touch and never me. She certainly likes to keep me close so that nothing really gets out of hand.

[Lionheart72 2,191]

kikonkrome said:

That has not entirely been our experience.

 

I am continually shocked to learn what a great swinging community we have here.

 

kikonkrome said:

I would disagree with this. People should be allowed to go to a swing club and just look with being 'expected' to perform. In regards to asking all the way, I have done it, and it was sexy, hot and fun kinda tease. Then she told me to STFU and go. It was all very giggly and fun.

 

I agree with everything you say here.