The swinging subject - Aspects of communication

[JustAskJulie 2,595]

communication is NOT explained very well. It's all well and good to say Honey... I sure would like to have sex with someone else, and would LOVE to see you with another guy, and forget to say all the other things that are a little imprortant tothe relationship.

 

The above was a statement made by Tarnished Halo in live chat tonight. This statement says a lot and I think it has a lot of merit.

 

Whenever a guy (or woman) comes to this board asking us how to "convince" their partner to swing our first answer is always communication (tell them what you want). Whenever there is a problem in a relationship our first answer is always "communication". But what does that mean really? What should they be communicating? What are the important aspects of communication?

[Elusive BiFem 70]

Quote

Originally posted by JustAskJulie

The above was a statement made by Tarnished Halo in live chat tonight. This statement says a lot and I think it has a lot of merit.

 

Whenever a guy (or woman) comes to this board asking us how to "convince" their partner to swing our first answer is always communication (tell them what you want). Whenever there is a problem in a relationship our first answer is always "communication". But what does that mean really? What should they be communicating? What are the important aspects of communication?

 

Frankly, I've wondered the same thing even as I've typed out the word...wondering if sometimes we don't respond in almost a rote fashion. And I've wondered, too, how one would go about swinging the idea of swinging on a spouse. As a single person, with those that I've met, I've asked that question each and every time and without fail, the answer has always been that the idea came to them as part of their sexual fantasy play.

 

To me, communication is as much really listening and hearing as it is speaking the words...a rather textbook type of definition. But it goes beyond that in terms of when the communication takes place...the actual situation, if you will. It entails involving the person you are speaking to in the communication process with a back and forth flow of thoughts and ideas and opinions. It involves body language. None of these things can be discounted. It involves knowing when the time is right to approach and/or offer ideas. It is being able to explain your feelings on the subject (here, speaking of swinging) without excluding or negating your partners feelings. Sometimes, after sharing thoughts, it involves going back to reassess ones own mental journey...where are you, really, in this scheme? What do you really want out of it and are you sharing those honest thoughts with your partner? To effectively communicate, you must at all times be agreeable to allowing your partner to come to where you are...knowing that you didn't just suddenly awaken one morning with the idea of swinging. It was a process.

 

And I guess that is a portion of what communication really is. A process. A series of steps with no defined end points. A willingness to listen, to accept, to evaluate, to share...attempts to understand where the other person is in their thought processes related to the subject. And most importantly, in the end, allowing that other person...the one that has not had the benefit of thinking of this for days/weeks/months/years to come to terms with the idea and to come to where you might be.

[yawanna 17]

"communication" is kind of a catch all phrase for talking. We aren't explicit enough with our definition of it.. but.. can we?

 

 

It is something that evolves.... learn, research, test the waters aka go to a swinger club... and often every new experience brings new communication and dialogue.

 

I mean, I had always read that swingers practice safe sex.. til the one time a guy tried entering me without a condom. I never thought to ask if people were married to each other til I met a couple who weren't. I never thought to ask a couple if they were in a committed, healthy relationship til we met some that weren't.

 

And the ever popular yet SO important....'will I be okay seeing my husband with another woman?' No one can answer that for you.

 

Can we truly define at the get go what we mean by communication? Maybe we need another word like..........

 

or a phrase.....

 

Share everything.... be honest...be open.....

 

Maybe we just need to break this down to the core elements to be clear with how couples need to be with each other to be able to participate in swinging?

[Miss_Piggy 98]

I don't know if communication can defined in set terms.

 

It seems to me that some people are really effective at communicating and they can get people to understand their perspective with a fair degree of ease while others could take hours to get their opinion/idea/thoughts/feelings/whatever across.

 

I think the idea is that as a couple you just need to hear and be heard. Meaning you need to always be away of what your partner is feeling (really aware not just assuming) and they need to be aware of what you are feeling.

 

Good question - it's a hard thing to put into words.. which is unfortunate because it's communication that we're talking about.

[sophiadan50 15]

I think that communication with ones spouse (or significant other) means they are "in tune" to each other, and know what the other would do in just about any situation. Sometimes, Dan and I can just exchange a glance I know what he is telling me (usually to get him something!) Just kidding, but if he is uncomfortable or not having a good time, I know it, without him telling me. For example, we were at a club recently with friends, and Dan got pissed about something (I was talking with someone at a different table, turned to look where he was sitting), and I knew immediately something was wrong. Although, I found many couples lately that are not on the same wave length with their spouse, and I have ask them how they communicate, and alot of couples don't. I think this could be the first problem but I am rambling so will stop for now.

[NotsoNew 17]

I think it is important to communicate with both your spouse and play couple in any situation.

 

We like to set the rules first, just to make sure there are no hurt feelings.

 

If you are inviting another couple to your bed, it is important to know their (and for them to know your) expectations...

[Michcouple 15]

Great Point

[CherryPunk 16]

There are many great books on communication. In my experience... communication encompasses not just being able to "talk" to another person, but being able to listen. "Men are from Mars and Women are from Venus" is one such book that covers communication very well and, more importantly, discusses the differences in how men communicate vs. how women communicate. I believe that the core of communication lies in *understanding* not *hearing*.

 

So yes, there are many aspects to communication beyond just being able to share information and feelings. It involves how those items are shared, what feedback loops people use, how people listen to one another, how they try to understand (even if not to agree).

 

My suggestion is that if someone is really interested in learning to communicate, especially with a spouse, they reference any of a number of different publications... there are also numerous resources on the web.

[JustAskJulie 2,595]

Communication is such a huge issue, but so often we have such a hard time breaking it down into the smaller details that really matter.

[freakykitten 15]

I am actually a Communications in Human Services major. The best way to communicate with your spouse is to do it honestly! Set a pre-determined time where the two of you can talk. An example would be having a family meeting but just the two spouses being involved.

Food for thought:

Meanings are in people not in words!

[Guest smileytattoo]

Hmmm.... I'm speechless on that one

[socolais 696]

The problem with communication is that we never really know when we've had "enough". There's no way that a typical long-term vanilla couple can dream up all the discussions they need to prepare themselves for swinging. There are just way too many unknowns. The best they can realistically hope for is to get close - but even that is difficult to determine. The attention to communication skills and general openness is probably best considered as "practice for after the first encounter".

 

The "convincing my spouse" part is a dead end street. We can't convince someone to adopt an adventurous spirit. I believe our best effort is to present swinging as an opportunity our spouse will likely see as an exciting experiment (with plenty of safe escape paths).

 

Swinging was so radically different than anything we'd ever done before that we didn't have a point of reference to base our predictions on. Even though we had talked our asses off, we had no realistic way of determining if we had said everything that needed saying. All that talk made a great foundation for us to communicate our feelings after the first encounter - and I think that contributed significantly to our success.

[personal416 71]

Lets look at a different tact regarding communication development. Regardless whether there is intent to swing or not or whether the "trigger to swing" is pulled or not, the communication needs to develop anyway. Will this help you convince your S.O. to swing... who knows... but hopefully your communication will develop along the way and you have a safe encouraging environment for them to make the decision in.

 

How can the communication develop? It's hard to say exactly HOW to develop it sometimes, but if we give it the right environment, perhaps it can occur. For those with limited communication currently, here's something to help develop it in steps/phases over a period of days/weeks/months or even years.

 

Yes... you can start with the end in mind (Home Plate), but if you miss a plate running around the bases don't expect to score. Depending on where your communication-level is to begin with, you might be able to combine or skip to various steps depending on how they apply to you.

 

This is the basics of what worked for us... your mileage will obviously vary...

 

 

1. Watching Soft Erotic porn together and both getting aroused... gently talking about how it makes you feel and easing into it
   
2. Discuss taking pics of each other in safe/comfortable positions, being sensitive to show each others bodies to advantage. Most people don't like seeing nudes of themselves initially until they are comfortable in their skin. Heck, I don't care to see mine even now, but enjoy seeing my partner(s) in them!
   
3. Register an adult profile with no pics or limited info... or sans face pics... or only in albums requiring specific permissions. Explore your voyeur or exhibitionist side together. Talk about what you like to see in others or show of yourself.
   
4. Pic sharing/swapping... more of a evolutionary or continuation of the step from the previous item.
   
5. Webcamming... has your communication gotten to a point where you talk about letting distant strangers see you or you want to watch others.
   
6. Meeting like minded adults for dinner, at parties, or clubs... perhaps discussion only. Talk together about how this excited you... what you were thinking.
   
7. Consider some hot tub time with other naked bodies... its easier not to be embarrassed by your body and grow comfortable in the presence of others when it's submerged!
   
8. Sex with your partner only.... perhaps dimly lit to remove some inhibitions. Slowly getting into watching and being watched. Talk extensively about how this made you feel... good and bad... where you think it might take you, etc.
   
9. Soft Swap or maybe a precursor would be touching with your hands on the other couple as they enjoy each other, and vice versa. Could be a couple of different steps here. Again... another opportunity to discuss what has happened, and what you're feeling or want to do.
   
10. Full Swap. Full discussion on what you felt watching your partner with someone else.... maybe touching... holding hands while they are pleasured... kissing... whispering in your partners ear..... embracing and enjoying the shared experience together.
    
11. ...and beyond... at this point, I would hope that you have a sense of your boundaries and feelings/desires that can be discussed... communication should be pretty far along at this point. If you've jumped right to this point, either you have really good communication and emotional maturity already, have gotten very lucky and it worked out, or worse, you're a ticking time bomb whose relationship could very well take a turn for the worse.
     
    

 

Of course... I'm not suggesting that this is "THE Road Map" to increased communication or even swinging, or that it was even ours intentionally. Looking back, this is just where the pebbles dropped. What I can say is that along the road there were EXTENSIVE amounts of communication about both the positive and the negative.... especially the negative (e.g. jealousy, insecurity, feelings of worth)... if you try to bulldoze past this, it will only fester and dealing with the infection may not be pleasant. For us, we prefer to reconnect fairly soon after each experience.... maybe first by talking... but also by losing ourselves in each other by making love.... this is a shared experience for us... even when there has been "separate" play, we talk about the details... get excited about it... and incorporate it into our shared experience. The only way we can accomplish this is to communicate.

 

In Real Estate, it's location, location, location. In Swinging, it's communication, communication, communication.

 

For us, we would have felt comfortable jumping straight to the last step very early in the process, but I've got to say, the journey has been pretty damned good. Even now... we usually set artificial boundaries with new partners/couples so that we can have full discussions about it along the way. Seems to help avoid bumps in the road too. Has it always worked out for us. No... and usually it's because we broke "mini-milestone" rules we had agreed upon earlier, or misread what the other was trying to convey in the heat of the action... but having good communication in place has "helped recover the ball" after a fumble. Someone mentioned that you can't possibly foresee every potential that could come up. Ya got that right!! But it can help mitigate them, and anticipate "better" what your partner may be thinking 'cause you've been actively communicating with them along the way.

 

While this certainly isn't an explanation on HOW to communicate, hopefully it's a plan on how to set comfortable incremental milestones that enable/"force" communication to occur in bite-sized chunks that are manageable, and hopefully, non-destructive to your relationship.

 

Best of luck... I've got to say... the journey is an incredible one... and the communication IS key for us!

 

...didn't mean for this response to be so involved.... guess I/we like communicating now...

[sweet_tna 680]

This thread makes an excellent point: What IS communication, really--especially when related to swinging?

 

Mr. Sweet and I both hold a Bachelor's in Communication Arts, but I can tell you first hand that doesn't do us a damn bit of good when it comes to our relationship. THAT we've had to learn ourselves, through trial and error.

 

One thing we've learned is that he and I both communicate very differently. I'm VERY candid and will say exactly on my mind at the time. That would seem like a good thing, no? Not so, as I'm not always tactful and my thoughts don't always follow a logical progression (I get sidetracked and go off on tangents).

 

Mr. Sweet on the other hand, plays things close to the vest, and prefers not to say anything until he's given a matter lots of thought and come to a conclusion about how he feels/what he wants to do.

 

But communication goes beyond just knowing HOW your partner prefers to discuss things. It takes a willingness to LISTEN and try to UNDERSTAND how your partner feels (even when you disagree). It means not just hearing the words they say, but hearing the feelings behind it.

 

And I believe it's an ongoing process. Mr. Sweet and I do what we call "temp checks" constantly. It's our way of making sure we're on the same page. We do this before and after dates or parties, or whenever one of us has (or appears to have) an issue with something. But these "temp checks" seem to have spilled over into the rest of our lives, too--which is a wonderful thing.

 

So when I recommend that a new couple "communicate", I mean for them to tell each other what they want/how they feel and LISTEN to what the other says. I'm also wanting them to keep doing this . . . indefinitely, whether they remain in the lifestyle or not.

 

=)

[cplnuswing 4,713]

I think that communication as it pertains to swinging is more than just the perfect words delivered perfectly. For effective communication between two people, there has to be trust. Trust that you mean what you say, trust that you have no ulterior motives, trust that you aren't just saying what you think the other wants to hear, etc.

 

The amount of trust required for effective communication varies by subject. Communicating to someone how much they will love the new brand of cookies at the grocery store, not going to take much. Communicating to someone how the used car on your sales lot is the perfect deal for them, going to take more. Communicating to your partner about swinging, going to take mucho trust.

 

If that trust isn't there, then no amount of silver-tongued talking is going to get it done, at least not in a way that could be called open and honest communication between two people that bodes well for success.

 

Along with that, good communications takes both senders and receivers. If someone doesn't have the "adventurous spirit" Socolais was talking about, then they aren't open to receiving the words. Using the examples above, most everyone would like to find a new favorite snack and are immediately receptive to hearing about it. Fewer would be talked right into a used car deal, and even fewer are receptive to swinging and comfortable sharing their thoughts about it.

[JustAskJulie 2,595]

As we often discuss here communication is one of the most important things a couple must have before they consider swinging. I was thinking about this today in terms of the advice that we give here... and in terms of a question that has come up before about how often we advise that a couple communicate but don't really tell them about what to communicate and what I realized is that the about "what" is everything.

 

If you don't feel that you can tell your partner ANYTHING and everything then you probably need to work on communication together. Communication builds trust and without those two things there is no way to be successful in a relationship let alone adding swinging to it.

 

That said.... what is your advice on how to increase communication? It's not an "you either have it or you don't" thing, you can build it if it's not there. What things have you done to help improve your communication with each other? What books have you read that you have found helpful in learning new ways to communicate and open up to each other?

[two42lovers 273]

Really listening and letting your partner know you've heard is the most important communication skill.

 

Most of us want to answer, to tell what we think, but listening means not giving your opinion. (At least not until your partner really feels heard. You'll give your thoughts when it's your partner's turn to listen.)

 

Best way to do it is to basically repeat back what you heard, and ask, "is that what you said?" Listen for what's important, feelings, needs. Ask open ended questions inviting your partner to share further and fully. Resist giving your opinion - even when you completely agree. Make it about hearing your partner's opinion. This is especially important if you are communicating about something difficult, emotional, or when you disagree.

 

Listening with acceptance and love is the best gift you can give your marriage.

[Pensacolapair 394]

Our formula for communicating is simple:

 

1. You have to be willing to put something out there. Suprisingly few people can read minds.

 

2. You have to listen and actually pay attention to what is being said as opposed to simply waiting for your turn to talk.

 

3. You have to understand that not everything is personal.. know the difference between 'discussion' and 'argument' and choose to discuss.

 

If the above can be accomplished, a climate that is condusive to communication will exist...from there it gets fairly easy. At least that's how it's worked for us.

[JustAskJulie 2,595]

2. You have to listen and actually pay attention to what is being said as opposed to simply waiting for your turn to talk.

 

This is an excellent point. A big mistake many people make in "communicating" is formulating their own response while the other person is still talking. You can't really be listening to someone completely if you are busy trying to think of your response.

[JustMrJ 178]

As I've been told before, you can't be listening very well if your mouth is open and words are pouring out.

 

Communication as I've mentioned before, to me, means that you both talk and listen alternately and that you try and keep emotions down to a low roar. If you can't talk to each other and listen to each other in turn and keep your emotions reined in, you will have a VERY difficult time trying to understand and work things out. It's expressing how you feel without lashing out or playing the wounded animal.

 

I feel that both of you should be able to talk to each other about ANY subject. If there are things that make you uncomfortable to discuss with your partner, you are not alone. What makes you a good communicator is that you discuss those subjects with your partner calmly DESPITE it being an uncomfortable subject AND they listen calmly DESPITE the subject.

 

Hope that makes some sense...

[alphaplaycpl 110]

Make communication go beyond conversation. You need to respond to your partner with your actions. That is truly the only way your parner knows that you have not just heard, but listened to what he/she has had to say.

[Evil_Bastard 19]

Cummunication is that thing that one attempts just before his gets his ass kicked. Cummunication is what gives others the where-with-all to persecute you. It is that cruel joke that GAWD played on the human race. It is that burning desire to let someone know who you are only to be mocked, ridiculed, outed, and punished for having done so. More seriously! It is that one quantity (quality?) that only the deviant 1% of couples possess, and the other 99% have no idea exists. It is talking TO the other person not AT them, but... talking with the intention that they HEAR what you have to say. It is also listening to the other person not waiting them out, but... LISTENING with the intention of hearing what THEY have to say. Cummunication IS NOT evaluation or judgement, not blame or making the other person wrong. Communication is creation and/or re-creation. Communication is re-creating for the other person your thoughts, ideas, feelings, etc., AND! it is creating for yourself the thoughts, ideas, feelings, etc. that the other person is sharing with you.

 

But then what the fuck do I know?

[JustMrJ 178]

Evil_Bastard,

 

But then what the fuck do I know?

 

Quite a bit evidently...

[LFM2 1,482]

 

But then what the fuck do I know?

 

Have to agree with JustMrJ on this one and say that Evil_Bastard obviously knows quite a lot. The only thing I can add is that communication also consists of nonverbals. Listen to their body posture as well. Sometimes our body is saying one thing and what's coming out of our mouth is something different. Listening without judgment and condition is hard. It's one of those things that really has to be controlled to really have good communication. I think Evil_Bastard covered it all pretty well.

[JustAskJulie 2,595]

It seems like we derailed a bit into a discussion of what communication really is. But let's get back to the question...

 

How do you improve communication? What have you done personally to improve your communication?

[LFM2 1,482]

What have you done personally to improve your communication?

 

The first thing that came to my mind when I read this was I let my guard down. I talked to Dave like we've never talked before. We both had to open up, be completely honest with each other, share our exact feelings and trust that the other person would be nonjudgmental and still have that unconditional love. It was one of the hardest things I've had to ever do. Open up about my fears, my desires, the big "why now?" question and where do we go from here?

 

In the 22 years we'd been married, we hadn't really communicated. We talked a lot, but no real communication took place. It's helped build our trust, our relationship has really blossomed and life is just generally better all around.

 

These last two years is sooooooooooo much better.

 

I've never read a book on the subject. Are there such books?

[JustMrJ 178]

Julie,

 

Sorry, I guess I didn't quite get the crux of the question.

 

What we've both done to improve communication is this:

 

1. Listen TO the person. Yes, I know this was mentioned before as to what communication is, but it's also something that some people have to learn to do better.

 

2. We agreed to be able to discuss anything and in fact most everything that comes to mind. This helps us to communicate better on topics that may be uncomfortable to most people.

 

3. We learned (either before or after we met) to discuss things while keeping our emotions in check. It's very difficult to have an intelligent discussion if one or both parties are upset or only thinking with their emotions. Emotions are important, don't get me wrong, but when discussing issues that have stirred up strong emotions, it's best to try and set them aside and get the information back and forth. Otherwise no true 'communication' will be achieved and discussions can quickly inflate to shouting matches... or worse.

 

That's about all I can think of... hopefully that's actually on topic this time.

[JustAskJulie 2,595]

JustMrJ said:

3. We learned (either before or after we met) to discuss things while keeping our emotions in check. It's very difficult to have an intelligent discussion if one or both parties are upset or only thinking with their emotions. Emotions are important, don't get me wrong, but when discussing issues that have stirred up strong emotions, it's best to try and set them aside and get the information back and forth. Otherwise no true 'communication' will be achieved and discussions can quickly inflate to shouting matches... or worse.

 

That's about all I can think of... hopefully that's actually on topic this time.

 

That is really a very important factor, I'm glad you mentioned it as it reminded me of something that we do personally to facilitate that. Many times when there are things that one of us feels we need to convey to the other but we are having a hard time doing so without the emotions getting in the way we do it by writing it out (these days it's in email). This allows the person who needs to talk to do so without their own emotions taking over and it allows the other person to really listen (granted with their eyes) without any ability to interrupt or to respond with just emotions. Typically, the responses have been in person, but by the time we do sit down face to face we've both had a chance to really process the issue and thus take the emotional (instant) reaction out of the picture.

[MRnMSbhaven 45]

We live by the "If at first you don't succeed, try, try again" motto.

We've noticed that too many people (I mean relationships in general) simply give up and stop trying after the first sign of something they don't want to hear.

 

Ms B

[K&JIntimates 66]

When K and I were dating a good friend of mine gave me "Men are from Mars...ect." That helped a lot in learning how to, not only, listen but to communicate with him. In the years since, we try to keep talking even if it takes days to hash out the problem or to make sure we understand where the other person is coming from. With practice we were able to push the initial emotions to one side and discuss openly whatever it is. Sometimes it isn't easy and I'll have to remind myself that K isn't going to judge me so I should be able to talk to him about whatever. In the beginning it was hard to put my own embarrassment or self-consciousness off to one side so that I could approach him about something and then seeing that all my "fear" was for naught reassured me that I have nothing to worry about when talking with him.

 

That is just one of the (many) wonderful things about K, you can talk to him and he'll listen despite any initial emotion that might pop up. I don't know how he does it but I'll always appreciate that he does.

[lustylearning 705]

There are some communication techniques I've employed in the past which have helped me get beyond barriers. One is to not use words like "always" or "never," when addressing a partner's behavior. Another is to phrase things in terms of "when you ___, i feel ___," rather than "you make me ___." And similar to it, is phrasing things in such a way that makes clear "this is my perception," rather than "this is your intent." Words are powerful and they can provoke powerful emotions. When we play the blame game with words, it creates unnecessary defensiveness and hinders a partner's ability to truly understand where you are coming from. These "techniques" don't come naturally though, especially when one is upset or angry. They require intentional forethought.