Swinging and Churchgoers/Religion (not what you might think)

[Guest]

Assuming that everyone on this forum is actively in the lifestyle, Mrs. C and I are curious about how many here that are active churchgoers (no need to identify a particular religion or church affiliation)? We had both read several years earlier, before our entry into the LS, that those who subscribe to the Evangelical ('holy roller') belief system tended to be more satisfied with their sexual relations in marriage. I think there had even been a study done that seemed to confirm this (not that it matters). We are people of faith ourselves, but we do not see anything in Scripture that says that swinging is wrong- quite the opposite, actually. We have read a VERY interesting book that supports our beliefs on this, but we wonder if there are others who consider themselves believers and are still participating in the lifestyle. (PLEASE NOTE: we are not proselytizing here, just wanting to hear from others in the same mindset.)

[2NoLimit 95]

We are believers, and we are not going to justify what we do as right or wrong (we don't consider it adultery, although many will argue this), but we feel it's not that big of a deal. Without delving into to much detail, we simply say that the experience has brought us closer and strengthened our marriage.

 

You can use the Bible to argue just about anyone's point of view on the subject, whether you are against it or for it.

 

let him who is without sin cast the first stone.

[GoldCoCouple 4,068]

There have been several threads on this in the past:

 

https://www.swingersboard.com/forums/topic/57341-religion-and-swinging/

 

https://www.swingersboard.com/forums/topic/40150-christian-swingers/

 

https://www.swingersboard.com/forums/topic/54819-the-bible-interpreting-it-and-swinging/

 

There are several more but these are ones that I recall from fairly recent times. Heck, if you do any research about the 'lost books of the Bible' you will find out that there are dozens of books that have been included and excluded from the Bible over time. One other site that I have kept bookmarked is this:

 

Monogamy Isn't Biblical, It's Roman

 

I always wondered why the Old Testament had men marrying multiple wives and then it just stopped in the New Testament. This explains a lot of the why.

 

Bottom line is we both believe in God and are religious, but we also believe that whatever anyone else believes in, as long as it makes them a better person and doesn't hurt others, is a good thing and should be allowed and encouraged. I would hate to be in front of the gates of heaven only to see Buddha or Allah or The Great Spirit was the 'right' God and have Him tell us 'you picked the wrong God...sorry, you are out'. I believe that this won't happen, but at the same time believe that God wouldn't be so religious exclusive (only one 'right' religion and everyone else goes to Hell). Most organized religion teaches 'be a good person and be nice to everyone else'...we do our best to adhere to this although we identify ourselves as Christian. Swinging is something that we do TOGETHER in the light, not behind the back of our SO in the dark. It doesn't 'hurt' either one of us and we do our best not to allow it to hurt anyone else. We don't see where it goes against our 'makes them a better person and doesn't hurt others' belief so we don't have a conflict or issue with the two. We try, as instructed by the Bible, not to judge others and keep our stone casting in check.

 

Sorry, but I was brought up in a strict religious household and I have spent a great deal of time wrestling with this subject. I'll just shut up now...for a few minutes at least.

[Alura 2,775]

 

I always wondered why the Old Testament had men marrying multiple wives and then it just stopped in the New Testament.

 

When the Roman Emperor Constantine brought the Council of Niacea together in 325AD with the purpose of assembling a book (The Bible) for the Christian Church, which he had legalized, he wanted the new religion's mores to be close enough to the Roman belief system it was replacing that the Romans would readily accept it.

 

Women in the Roman Empire were one step above slaves in status. They sat in the upper tiers of the Coliseum while men sat in the lower ones where the view was better. There were many other ways women were "kept in line." Constantine wanted to keep it that way, so he included the Epistles of Saul of Tarsus while not including The Gospel of Mary Magdalene. Jesus gave women a high standing in his movement while Constantine wanted to suppress such ideas.

 

It was at this point, in my opinion, that the Christian Church departed from the teachings of The Man From Galilee.

[EastInWest 1,524]

I always wondered why the Old Testament had men marrying multiple wives and then it just stopped in the New Testament. This explains alot of the why.

 

It's basically right on point, as Alura mentions. The gap in time between the Old Testament and the New Testament is several thousand years, and raising legitimate offspring with a single official wife in the Hellenic tradition was the ambient social norm in the time of Jesus - although the use of female slaves and the keeping of concubines was routine.

 

The Church went on to officially tolerate wife-snatching, sex slavery, and concubinage until well into the Middle Ages. Even then, people scoffed.

[Lionheart72 2,191]

It was at this point, in my opinion, that the Christian Church departed from the teachings of The Man From Galilee.

 

Well, let's also not forget the influence of Augustine of Hippo, a notorious sex fiend by his own accounts (read his Confessions) who was also instrumental in enshrining the whole "sex is evil" into Christian dogma, simply because he couldn't keep it in his pants and felt guilty about it.

 

Paul and Augustine, two of the top historical figures I would very like to punch in the face.

[Guest]

We read a book very recently called "Divine Sex: Liberating Sex From Religious Tradition" that was a real eye-opener. It is written by an evangelical pastor of some 36 years, highly respected in his field, and he refutes the modern religious dogma regarding sex outside of marriage, swinging, homosexuality, etc. by going back to the original documents and clearing up the eons of caked-on erroneous translations and bad intentions from religious leaders. We've had some discussions with others in the church who have disagreed or agreed at various levels with the LS, and this book has been invaluable. You can get the book on Amazon; I highly recommend it. We first heard about it a few weeks ago on a blog written by a swinging couple who are Mormons, very active in their church but also (discreetly) very active swingers.

 

What we believe, essentially, is that if both parties in the marriage are agreeable to it and participating, then it's not adultery and therefore acceptable. And hella fun, too!

[Funguy796 44]

All I can say is AMEN and I do mean that. People that love the Lord are great lovers and friends. I thank others for learning much about the history. Very interesting!

[Guest]

All I can say is AMEN and I do mean that. People that love the Lord are great lovers and friends. I thank others for learning much about the history. Very interesting!

 

Thank you! Although as I said, not looking to proselytize and no disrespect to those who believe something different. Heavy religious indoctrination about sex can be a difficult thing to overcome even in a monogamous setting. I know plenty of vanilla couples who struggle with shame over sex with their own spouse. So sad to be so much in bondage.

[PeterJ 960]

Thank you! Although as I said, not looking to proselytize and no disrespect to those who believe something different. Heavy religious indoctrination about sex can be a difficult thing to overcome even in a monogamous setting. I know plenty of vanilla couples who struggle with shame over sex with their own spouse. So sad to be so much in bondage.

 

And not the good kind of bondage...

[dan63 106]

Assuming that everyone on this forum is actively in the lifestyle, Mrs. C and I are curious about how many here that are active churchgoers (no need to identify a particular religion or church affiliation)?

 

Very much so. At church pretty much every Sunday when we aren't out of town at a club or party, about once a month.

[Guest]

Well it's good to know that we're not in the extreme minority LOL. And I agree with you wholeheartedly, Funguy. People who love God seem to be more giving and sensual lovers, and better friends. Dan, like you we're in church pretty much every weekend. before we entered the LS, I was actually in church most of the weekend because I taught Children's Church. Mrs. C and I have been in volunteer ministry within our church for over 20 years. (not bragging, mind you; but some would say how ironic it is that I was so dedicated within the church and yet now so active in an 'ungodly' lifestyle.)

[cplnuswing 4,713]

I was actually in church most of the weekend because I taught Children's Church. Mrs. C and I have been in volunteer ministry within our church for over 20 years. (not bragging, mind you; but some would say how ironic it is that I was so dedicated within the church and yet now so active in an 'ungodly' lifestyle.)

 

You're correct, many would say it's ironic...I would say I can think at least two members here who were full time ministers. Sadly, both have moved on from this site, so no idea whether they still are or not (lifestyle and/or ministry), but it's more common than you think.

 

Final story...we got a contact one time on SLS. Not the brightest of fellows, he included his email that was partially made up of his name, and he had opened his pics. Mrs. cplnuswing recognized him as the minister (part-time) of a small church in the area. Married too, but no mention of that in the SLS message, said he was single male.

[JM153 346]

Over the centuries the Christian church , both denominational and non-denominational, is a business. Avery big business. The product they sell is salvation. Their marketing is based on the tried and true reward and fear concepts used by so many successful businesses. To get buy in by their customers they establish rues which are aimed at controlling the customer. The price they charge is based on customer income and not their cost of goods. Since males have historically controlled the income, males have been treated better than females. Not to mention males set up the rules. The church's attitude about sex is just part of these controlling rules.

 

Setting aside the "Church", what does it mean to be a Christian? I believe there are a few simple rules in the teaching of Jesus. In terms of human interaction, the primary one we know as the Golden Rule - Do unto others as you would have them do to you. The LS conforms to this rule. In my opinion there is nothing unchristian in practicing the Lifestyle.

[Fundamental Law 2,903]

Let us invite all who are interested in religion and swinging to recall this bit of prose from Mark Twain, see especially Letter VIII.

 

Mr. Samuel Clemens would have made a helluva swinger.

[dan63 106]

Let us invite all who are interested in religion and swinging to recall this bit of prose from Mark Twain, see especially Letter VIII.

 

Mr. Samuel Clemens would have made a helluva swinger.

 

Thank you Fundamental law, that was quite an interesting read. Really never knew that Samuel Clemmons was such a Hedonist. He certainly seemed to march to the beat of his own drummer, but certainly provided some food for thought.

[couplers 4,717]

My fairly strict, very old-fashioned Catholic upbringing, especially the attitude towards women, made me quietly rebellious, particularly about sex. But as the quote says, "I thank God I was raised Catholic, so sex will always be dirty."

[afterwork 89]

Some of our close swinging friends were met in church. It was/is amazing just how many swingers you can find in a church setting.

 

Our view is cool comfortable of sharing together, and only sharing with married couples in the same marriage.

We do not covet their relationship or one of them. We have a relationship that is deeply committed and has been one in marriage and in church as a union for 50+years.

 

With our church friends in certain conversations (more than once), adultery became a discussion point with the "coveting" driver as the root sin. So when the actors perform sex without the underlying driver of "coveting," it can open up discussions that yield tell tale body/facial/word responses that suggest paths for deeper conversations with some.

 

Of course, the response of someone messes with my mom ole lady gets shot really is a conversation changer (LOL)

[JamesCurious 22]

Hello all, and greetings from Australia.

 

It was this thread that brought me to this site and inspired me to join. This is my first post, so forgive my newness to all of this.

 

I am not in the lifestyle, and not likely to be so in the immediate future, due to the fact that my wife is not thinking this way – at least not overtly.

 

We are both Christians, active in our mainstream church. My wife teaches at a Christian school. I am a nurse in the local emergency room (night shift for over 10years). She is 50, I am 49. She is the only woman I have ever “known” and I love her beyond words. Sex has been okay through the years, and has been, to the most part, her lying back and leaving me to the hard work. There have been times when she’s been more of an active participant, and more so in the last few years, but mostly its missionary and get it over with. I’ve tried lots of things and usually they fall flat. She has a lot of body hangups. She’s not perfect, neither am I. She won’t get naked with me unless the light is out (but lately we’ve had a little electronic candle and I can see a little bit more now). She’s shy and won’t let me watch her blow me – even though I’ve asked to let me. I think it’s all part of the trust thing.

 

I am a very sexual person, and my main outlet has been a (not so) secret porn habit that my wife hated and caused some major trust issues. That’s over and done now, but I guess the mistrust remains (she tells me different, but I can’t help feeling it between us). She’s got her very mainstream views on marriage, and I have had the same forever, but lately I’ve been wondering. And then there was a “thing” that I had for one of my (younger) colleagues that didn’t lead to cheating (but lusting is the same thing, right?). I still loved my wife, but also was feeling love for this other woman. It was crazy and confusing. But it was never going to lead to anything anyway, so I let it go.

 

How did I get to this point? We were going on a cruise in December, and I read somewhere that some people decide to do things (ie sexual) that they wouldn’t do at home – you know, with people that they would never see again. We we met a nice young couple who seemed interested in us, and I started wondering. She was little and cute and happy. He was tall and strong and handsome. I imagined that there could be something between us all. We had a drink and a nice dinner and a lot of laughs, but that was it. My wife gets tired early and gets “over people” and so we retired to our cabin and only saw them sporadically after that. On out last night I we looking for them and they were sitting playing card games up in the near deserted kids-free area. I’d like to think that maybe they were waiting for us to find them. We exchanged numbers, handshakes and hugs. Later messages and facebook posts were exchanged enthusiastically. I offered a bed if they visited.

 

Then I thought, am I a closet swinger?

 

Here I was imagining the four of us together, maybe twice a year, for a little fun between the sheets.

 

And how does all of that fit in with my faith?

 

My wife is now concerned, because I’m reading books, trying to work out what the Bible says (and doesn’t say) out sex. She’s even used the word “heretic”, so I guess at some point I’m going to be burned at the stake!

 

But then, little things she’s said… she wonders what it would be like have two of me in bed with her (weird?) and gave me a little raise of the brows when she suggested it… she told me that she had been “unfaithful in her mind” when I told her I’d stopped looking at porn (now I want to know details!)… she said that she had considered being a lesbian at one point because men are pigs. Once she told me she had a desire for me to cum on her tits, which I did enthusiastically and I await other little requests.

 

I write novels, and so I employed my skills at writing a little fantasy – a little erotica. In the scenario, there are two of her and one of me, a nice threesome that involves a little girl-girl touching and ends with my cum on both their tits. Standard stuff, I guess. She smacked my arse, told me I was a naughty boy for writing it. My next story is MFM with two of me, and then a foursome the configuration I think you can guess. As weird as doubles are, it’s something she’s thought about that is outside then box, and dammit, I’m running with it. And maybe it will get her thinking beyond that.

 

So, I’m interested in how people of faith made the transition into this way of thinking. What was the process? Who had the first inklings? What are your stories?

 

I know I am a long way from where you guys are. There are so many barriers ahead. I see that trust is a big thing and I doubt my wife’s trust in me, but I can see she’s starting to have the same feelings as me (at least I hope). I will talk to her about all of this when I’m sure where my head and my heart is, and when I get the courage.

 

Sorry this is so long.

[Jane1902 476]

I love JamesCurious approach of writing using doubles. I don't know if it will go beyond the fantasies but it sounds like you have opened the door to having more fun between the two of you in the meantime.

[GoldCoCouple 4,068]

James, we all had to start somewhere (and there is no such thing as too long of a post or too much information). What you need to do is work HARD on the trust and communication issues. ALL swingers who are successful have these two things in abundance. Will this lead to you both swinging in the future...who knows, but it WILL lead to a better and stronger relationship and that is NEVER a bad thing. Of course, to get trust you must first be willing to give it. Start opening up to her and talk honestly about...well just about everything (just about excludes things like 'does this make me look fat?' questions). Slowly work more towards to talking about your fantasies. Also, let her know about the things that really turn you on. Things like 'remember when you asked me to come on your tits...I still think about that, it and you were and are so sexy'. Help build up her self confidence and remind her how much you love her, but are also attracted to her (something that can easily be forgotten as a relationship gets 'older'). You are supposed to be her rock and she needs to know that her rock is bedrock, not sitting on shifting sand (stealing from Paul, but it's still true in this case as well). While you may love her beyond words, that doesn't mean you should ever stop saying those words. You should never take her or her love for granted. All of this is part of great communication. "Oh, she knows how I feel" is NEVER good enough and is usually the first step towards that downward spiral. Of course, for there to be a downward spiral, there must also be an upward one. When things start going in that upward direction, they can also pick up speed and keep making things better for each of you as well.

 

If you didn't read it in my post above, read this NOW:

 

Monogamy Isn't Biblical, It's Roman

 

While the Bible is God's book, it has been written and modified by humans who have their own flaws and imperfections. Cheating is something done by one member of a couple behind the back of the other and involves lies and deception. Swinging requires that the actions be done together in the light and needs a strong bond between the two to be successful. Will you two ever be swingers? We certainly have no idea, but the things that need to be done to possibly get there will only make your relationship stronger and better. Taking the first step is the way to find out if you will ever get there, and even if you don't, you will both be better off in your relationship for trying. Good luck and let us know how things progress.

[JamesCurious 22]

Thank u all so much for your well chosen words. I totally agree with the trust thing. I think that's the thing to work on before anything else. My other problem is intoducing the idea that maybe we've been sold a particular interpretation of the bible based on a bias of the time. The idea that what's in the bible as written might just be not what we think it says bothers her. We have a gay daughter and we'VE had to change our perspective A LOT over the last 3 years to accept that God still loves her even though she's gay. I'd not want to know a God that sends her to he'll because she loves women! And I think my wife thinks the same way, even though she would not admit it. If the interpretation in the bible is wrong about gays, then what ELSE is it wrong about! My wife has a labial cyst at the moment (painful!) so I'm leaving her be so she can recover. After that I might give her the next story I've written. Either it will go well or very, very bad! Also, I might post the stories, see what people think. All of this is going on while I'm publishing my latest novel. I'd shamelessly promote it here, but I don't want to out myself!

[GoldCoCouple 4,068]

The 'biggest deal' about the finding of the dead sea scrolls is that they had not undergone generations of being rewritten and therefore were missing the spelling mistakes and changes that took place later.

 

I don't recall where the Bible says much about homosexuality. I had several friends (male and female) in high school who later 'came out' as gay (I went to a very strict christian high school) and while they were afraid of being condemned by the 'morally upright' members of the class, but there's just no ammunition (especially in the new testament). Roman bath houses were kind of known for the different 'pairings' that took place in them. If the Bible would have been written now, it would have been like condemning people for eating high fat/high sugar foods. With most people doing it, the book wouldn't have been very popular. Things that people 'think' are in the Bible, a great deal of the time just aren't there.

 

Post your stories away. Lots of people who come here do it for the stories...

[JamesCurious 22]

I posted my first story and will the second. I showed her the second, and she said that she didn't like the language and that it lacked some romantic feeling. The content, though, she had no objection to! She challenged me to write another story, but with nicer language and with the romantic vibe she suggested. Challenge accepted! As far as the homosexual issue, I read in 1co6:9 homosexual people (in many versions male) won't inherit the kingdom of God. Im not sure what that means but im sure it will be revealed in time. I'm reading Divine Sex (mentioned in an above post) and am finding it very interesting. I'm putting in a lot of thoughts in the margin so that when I ask my wife to read it, she'll see that I've given the book a lot of careful thought. Also, I asked her not to judge me or reject me for my desires or my thoughts and she agreed without reservation. I know she loves me, and she says that she doesn't share very well with others. Anyway, onward and upward...

[GoldCoCouple 4,068]

Here's the perfect example:

 

New American Standard Bible

Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,

 

King James Bible

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

 

King James 2000 Bible

Know you not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

 

American Standard Version

Or know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with men,

 

English Revised Version

Or know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with men,

 

Webster's Bible Translation

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

 

Young's Literal Translation

have ye not known that the unrighteous the reign of God shall not inherit? be not led astray; neither whoremongers, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor sodomites,

 

Pick your translation. While about half actually say homosexuals or men lying down or having sexual relations with males, there are still plenty of translations (including the King James version) that don't say that. Also, it's only men and not women?

 

Anyways, looking forward to reading the new story.

[ifonly1 20]

JamesCurious I have read "Divine Sex" completely and have started to reread it again. I applaud you for opening up to your wife with your thoughts and feelings. Even if nothing else happens, the improved communication with your wife will certainly make the two of you much stronger. While my late wife could not wrap her head around "Sex outside of marriage" we did talk a lot. I have since remarried and my now wife and I communicate very openly. No, we are not active in the Lifestyle but we talk about it almost all of the time. I believe it is all about communication and getting past all of the misinformation that exist about those in the lifestyle. I wish you the best! ifonly1

[Guest]

Thank you for your thoughtful writings about this topic, JamesCurious (and everyone else)!

 

I will chime in (after being away from this topic for awhile) with this question: How many marriages within the Church (not the building or organization, but the Body of Believers) would be saved if married Believers came out from under the condemnation of religious dogma and realized that Sex and Love are not the same thing, that God is alright with consensual partner-swapping (see the OT for proof on that), and that sexual desire for those outside of their marriages is a healthy and God-designed thing, provided we respect the rights and relationships of other couples and engage in sexual sharing without the 'coveting' of our neighbors' spouses?

[MiaContreras 0]

I respect the compliments that are not afraid to talk about open sex and express their opinions very much. Because communication and a dialogue in which everyone respects each other means forming a healthy family. And if you have children and talk to them freely without choosing twisted words but you tell them everything right, then I'm happy for you. Until now, I was not like that, but they taught me here https://firstchurchlove.com to be more accessible and express my opinion without being afraid of what others will say. A suitable church can help and support you in many things. You have to find the one that attracts you the most.

[couplers 4,717]

On 10/10/2017 at 12:16 AM, afterwork said:

Some of our close swinging friends were met in church.

After two years of having a boyfriend while hubby was monogamous, I finally got over my jealousy and fears and decided hubby should play as well so long as I was in control, choosing the women from among my friends and acquaintances.  It surprised me how two of the women who took up my offer to share my husband were religiously observant, one Evangelical Christian the other Muslim.

[Rock n Tits 188]

On 6/25/2017 at 2:41 PM, Guest said:

Assuming that everyone on this forum is actively in the lifestyle, Mrs. C and I are curious about how many here that are active churchgoers (no need to identify a particular religion or church affiliation)? We had both read several years earlier, before our entry into the LS, that those who subscribe to the Evangelical ('holy roller') belief system tended to be more satisfied with their sexual relations in marriage. I think there had even been a study done that seemed to confirm this (not that it matters). We are people of faith ourselves, but we do not see anything in Scripture that says that swinging is wrong- quite the opposite, actually. We have read a VERY interesting book that supports our beliefs on this, but we wonder if there are others who consider themselves believers and are still participating in the lifestyle. (PLEASE NOTE: we are not proselytizing here, just wanting to hear from others in the same mindset.)

We are and we do