So complicated- but does it have to be?

[g-lovers 21]

My guy and I have been together for 3 years. I was married when we reconnected, and as a result, my ex and I decided to try on polyamory. Long story short, my marriage ended (amicably) and Tom and I stayed together.

 

Backstory- Tom and I had a delicious summer together 20 years ago, and then only reconnected via FB, so when we ended up in the same town it was explosive. From Day 1, I knew what he believed and how he was built. Sex is something to celebrate. It’s natural. We are programmed to believe that it’s wrong to desire others, that it should be sacred between two people, etc. At the time, that was so exciting and refreshing- because I was happily married! All I wanted from him was sex, and there was to be no ‘escalator’ in our relationship, so what did I care who or when he fucked someone else.

 

Well, here it is biting me in the ass. It’s been just the two of us for a little over a year. He has slept with 2 other women over the 3 years we’ve been together, and I’ve reacted terribly (even though I supported it at the time). I find it to be utterly gut wrenching.

 

That said, I am incredibly sexual- I love to fuck and play, and I’m not at all opposed to him being with another woman if I’m involved. Once we established that, we got on AFF, went to a club, etc...but due to where we live (very small town), we need to rely on when we’re out of town to play which decreases our opportunities for sure. I also am not sure I’m interested in another man (though he certainly is not opposed to it), which we all know how easy it is to find another woman only to play...

 

Long back story short, we’ve not had any experiences as a couple as of yet. He just left to visit his family in the US, and is messaging couples to have a night. I gave him ‘permission’, but it wasn’t because I am genuinely okay with it- moreso so I can stop hearing about it and just encourage him to be who he is.

 

But am I doing myself a massive disservice? Are we just not suited? Fucking other people destroyed my marriage. I’m just not as willing to try that again so quickly. I get that swinging is far different than poly, but I suppose it bothers me that he went ahead and started messaging people without discussing boundaries with me- or even asking how I really feel about it.

 

I also often wonder if these experiences are more about self worth and confidence boosters as opposed to about the sexual experience itself? He is beautifully hung, and is hands down the best lover I’ve ever had- and he knows it (without being arrogant). I know giving women pleasure is something he prides himself on...so...

 

This man loves me. He is committed to a future together. There are children involved. I am not being played, nor would he ever want to disrespect or hurt me. But he doesn’t believe in ownership. All of which I know in my bones, and squashing who he is does not appeal to me.

 

It just occurs to me that if he was so versed in the LS that he would be a better communicator about it?? Do I just choose not to be upset and let him live his life? Or am I right to be upset that this went from playing as a couple, to him jumping on the opportunity to go it alone after one flippant comment by me to ‘go ahead’?

[Sawman 84]

It sounds to me as if the answer is to insist on being present when he plays. This will remove any mystery about whom he likes more and what takes place. If there is a couple you can draw a boundary around your participation. The couple/single has to be cool with that. He has to be cool with that.

 

I wouldn't hold my breath about him connecting with a couple on AFF.

[introvertswingr 55]

I am not in the exact same boat, but can commiserate. I have been with my husband for 10 years. We started swinging from the get go, but MMF only (mainly because we couldn't find a couple). We took a few years off for health issues. He told me a couple of years ago that he wasn't satisfied. That he needed more. We started looking for couples again (he never stopped), and it has been a roller coaster for me. Being told I was not enough (though, he goes back and forth on this depending on the conversation and his goal, I think), has been a huge thing for me. At the same time, I know I will never be enough for him unless I pull a South Park and genetically engineer an extra vagina. We have played with one other couple and that brought with it a ton of emotions. He feels he is racing the clock (to when he will no longer be able to have sex). He wants to feel desired. I get all of this. I am trying to help, yet at the same time maintain and respect my hard limits/boundaries and who I am. I have toyed with the idea of telling him to go off on his own to play. Not as a game/trick-- I try not to do that as I hate it. But so he can be satisfied (though, again, he will never be satisfied-- in his own words, because he is always seeking the next thrill). I just don't know if I could handle that. It has gotten to the point where I can't even stand to see him on his phone because he obsessively checks for new messages/looks for new couples. We have always said (and I thought agreed), that were we to swing, we would be in the same room and as a couple. As an enhancement. This isn't feeling like an enhancement. I also think that if we got to that point, it would mean no more sex for us (at a minimum, no more bareback), because I do not want to catch anything. Weighing the pros and cons can get overwhelming. I, like you, love him. We have a life together. But this has me questioning everything in a way I hate.

I agree with the other response, insisting that you be present when he plays seems like a fair compromise. If he can't agree to that (or you don't trust him to stick to it when he is away), then....

 

Life is hard.

[Sawman 84]

I am trying to help, yet at the same time maintain and respect my hard limits/boundaries and who I am. I have toyed with the idea of telling him to go off on his own to play.

 

How would it be if you got in involved with recruiting a play friend for him? You would be in control and it would be giving him a gift.

[MS1999 38]

As I read your post, the words that keep going through my mind is 'primacy' and 'stability'. I read an article in Psychology Today recently that explained why - physiologically - people are jealous early in relationships. Its because they are not yet confident that they have stable primacy and acts that pull that primacy into question shake them. Your situation is tough.. you have primacy and you feel stability, yet it seems that this [pretty much unilateral] decision of his to seek another couple when he travelled, may be margin you feel as though you're not as primary as you think.

 

I think the idea of only playing when you are together is a good one. It makes it a shared experience.

[introvertswingr 55]

Now I am feeling like I hijacked your thread (sorry, I can just relate to the questioning of the state of the relationship), so here is the "not all about introvertswingr" response . Yes, open, clear, direct communication is key. Having a moderator (a.k.a. counselor) could be helpful, but I would recommend finding one versed in the lifestyle if possible. At least, that would be my preference. That can be easier said than done. For the most benefit, he would also have to be willing to attend, though you could find a personal therapist and attack things that you can control (i.e. your communication, thoughts, emotions, behaviors). I know in my relationship, I will sometimes say "I want X restaurant for dinner". He will suggest another, and I'll respond with "whatever". Sometimes, I really want the x restaurant, but not enough to make a deal out of it. If I bring this up to him later, he will say that I said whatever, so he thought it was fine. We can't expect anyone (even those who know us well) to be able to read our minds and know that something is a flippant comment. Especially, in my experience, when the comment is about sex. Also, I wouldn't expect that just because he has a lot of experience in the lifestyle that he can communicate well. Those are two very different things.

[g-lovers 21]

Thanks so much for your replies.

 

No worries at all, Introvert. It helps immensely to hear other’s stories. I’m sorry you’re struggling. Sucks that he worded it as such that he’s not ‘satisfied’, as I’m sure hurting you wasn’t his intention. What I learned in poly is not that we are not enough, it is simply that we can’t be expected to provide and BE everything to one person. The author Esther Perel has a great Ted Talk that explains the theory of why people cheat, that’s quite enlightening. We are the lucky ones, to have an open dialogue with our spouses on the topic. Perhaps your husband needs a lesson in how to present things, because beauty- you are definitely enough.

 

Alexandsandra- yup. You’re right, I am the problem. Swinging wildly between ‘go, be free, do you!’ to ‘no, just say no, I’m all you need, just fuck me more!’ It’s childish and terribly confusing for him. I’m working on it. As he told me last night, I need to just take my mind out of it. It’s sex, nothing more. I am trying to believe him when he says there is no emotion in it for him. What a fucking robot. But I do know him to be a very tough cookie to crack, and he lets very few people ‘in’. He loves to please, he loves to provide pleasure, he loves feeling good at something (who doesn’t). I guess I just need to jump in.

 

Sawman- I appreciate your idea, but choosing a playmate is a hard no for me. Far too close to poly for my comfort level. This has to be about pure fuckery, or it won’t work for me at this time in my life.

As 1999 thoughtfully mentioned, the primacy aspect of our relationship is still so shaky. I feel it, I know it, but there are so many factors still at play that create a feeling of instability regardless of our commitment to one another. Your original reaction of deciding to be present is likely the best one for us. Well, the best for me. How selfish of me, really. Sigh...

[introvertswingr 55]

Your original reaction of deciding to be present is likely the best one for us. Well, the best for me. How selfish of me, really. Sigh...

 

I don't view it as selfish, but maybe that is because being present is the only way I am comfortable. I see it as you trying to accommodate his desires in a way which you are comfortable. Compromise.

 

Sawman: As to choosing a partner. Man, I thought I was giving a gift by swinging more frequently than I desire! By meeting up with people, talking to them, etc (all things I do not like). I would also end up choosing a partner that he was not attracted to. He wants a young 20 year old. That would NOT be who I chose for him Yes, trust issues. Also, it feels a little weird (yes, I am an over thinker) to "pick" someone and woo them for him. For us, maybe not as weird, but I can't woo. I can't even flirt. It seems a little demeaning to the other person, but again, I over think.

[GoldCoCouple 4,068]

Swinging is a team sport, poly is even more a team sport. It doesn't sound like you two are a team. Communication and trust will usually take care of the jealousy and/or 'mood swings', but it really sounds like you could use more of both. No matter what, you really should both be doing this as a team.

[agreatguy 269]

Thanks so much for your replies.

 

No worries at all, Introvert. It helps immensely to hear other’s stories. I’m sorry you’re struggling. Sucks that he worded it as such that he’s not ‘satisfied’, as I’m sure hurting you wasn’t his intention. What I learned in poly is not that we are not enough, it is simply that we can’t be expected to provide and BE everything to one person. The author Esther Perel has a great Ted Talk that explains the theory of why people cheat, that’s quite enlightening. We are the lucky ones, to have an open dialogue with our spouses on the topic. Perhaps your husband needs a lesson in how to present things, because beauty- you are definitely enough.

 

Alexandsandra- yup. You’re right, I am the problem. Swinging wildly between ‘go, be free, do you!’ to ‘no, just say no, I’m all you need, just fuck me more!’ It’s childish and terribly confusing for him. I’m working on it. As he told me last night, I need to just take my mind out of it. It’s sex, nothing more. I am trying to believe him when he says there is no emotion in it for him. What a fucking robot. But I do know him to be a very tough cookie to crack, and he lets very few people ‘in’. He loves to please, he loves to provide pleasure, he loves feeling good at something (who doesn’t). I guess I just need to jump in.

 

Sawman- I appreciate your idea, but choosing a playmate is a hard no for me. Far too close to poly for my comfort level. This has to be about pure fuckery, or it won’t work for me at this time in my life.

As 1999 thoughtfully mentioned, the primacy aspect of our relationship is still so shaky. I feel it, I know it, but there are so many factors still at play that create a feeling of instability regardless of our commitment to one another. Your original reaction of deciding to be present is likely the best one for us. Well, the best for me. How selfish of me, really. Sigh...

 

This is a great discussion and you have an incredible amount of insight to him as well as introspection. It's too bad you've opened Pandora's box by agreeing to something you weren't totally comfortable with. You've got to work through it together and you have to decide what you are going to be comfortable with. That's a very fluid environment though. As you progress you may become more excited about he prospects of just sex, you may enjoy the thrill of a flirty chase for an evening culminating in hot sex and even better reclamation sex. You may better understand that variety, even in sex, is the spice of life and you can separate it from feeling like you have to be in love with the person in order to have sex with them. If you are willing to accept those possibilities then he needs to understand that he needs to put on the brakes and let you catch up.

 

Catching up was something my wife had to get across to me with a 2 x 4. I had some experience in the lifestyle before we met. When we met I made it clear that I wanted to pursue more. She was on board with that so I thought it was full steam ahead. Being on board didn't mean the same thing to us. To her it meant having an open mind, discussing my experiences, finding out what I wanted, reading about it and eventually dipping her toes in the water. All along she was getting comfortable with how I reacted to situations, did I flip out or was I supportive. Fantasy talk while having sex, getting to know what we both found appealing. Once, after expressing frustration with how slowly things were moving she simply told me that I had done this before and she hadn't. That made sense to me. I gave her time to catch up.

 

I am that guy that sex with one woman will never be enough for. My wife understood this and better understands it now that she has had her own taste. It's about experiences. I'll never love anyone else but I damn sure like to flirt and tease and look at and have sex with other women. I want the variety. My wife is filet mignon to me. She is a great partner, a wonderful friend, she's beautiful, bright, sexy, and intelligent and she let's me have variety. Sometimes, though, I want some pasta, a nice salad or maybe just a sandwich. She can't be all those things and for me to put that expectation on her is unfair to us both.

 

She is a great seductress and she has fun making guys squirm. I like watching her do that to other guys. She likes the feeling of being desired and she likes the payoff of getting a good fucking with a hard cock that's not mine. It's exciting. She has mentioned several times recently that she wants to fuck a black guy. Well, I certainly can't be that for her and I'm completely cool with it because I know it's just something different she wants to try. I think for her, being able to get out of her comfort zone and going down on a guy for the first time as I was watched was really liberating. There were no repercussions afterward. Nothing negative. It was just hot for us both. She sometimes asks me if I feel like I created a monster. No, not at all. I've just given her the freedom to explore what she couldn't before.

 

To say there is no emotion involved is not exactly accurate. There is emotion. There is excitement and nervousness, there is pride in being able to overcome that voice our society has built into us that says it's wrong. There is desire and lust. I feel those butterflies when there is a mutual attraction to someone else and especially knowing there is a chance we'll have sex. It's lust though, not love. It's endorphins and adrenaline. It's physiological. It's like being a teenager all over again. Then when it's over that lust for her is gone as well. I know she's gone back to her man. I have the woman I truly love and the emotions I feel from that are indescribable.

 

Anytime we swap or have a third join us the reclamation sex is amazing. Talking about our experiences and fantasizing about new ones gives us primacy and stability that someone else mentioned. It's not always gone smoothly for us but it has never been anything to do with someone else. It's been the two of us not communicating as well as we should have. working through those little issues has strengthened us and improved our communication.

 

Knowing that we are giving each other these experiences makes us happy. Compersion is finding joy and happiness in someone else's joy and happiness. It's the opposite of jealousy and successful swinging couples have compersion.

[introvertswingr 55]

Then when it's over that lust for her is gone as well.

 

 

Is it really, though? I mean, you are thinking about that person and reliving it when having sex. So, is the lust really gone? You aren't imagining, fantasizing, and remembering it while having sex with your wife? Also, are you talking about one-off's or people/couples with whom you have had multiple encounters.

[agreatguy 269]

Is it really, though? I mean, you are thinking about that person and reliving it when having sex. So, is the lust really gone? You aren't imagining, fantasizing, and remembering it while having sex with your wife? Also, are you talking about one-off's or people/couples with whom you have had multiple encounters.

 

Yes, Sure I'm reliving it. I'm thinking about and reliving the experience not thinking about a particular person so I'm not fantasizing about that particular person. I'm more fantasizing about the experience with my wife and how much I enjoyed seeing her pleasure. Whenever I think about the experiences we've had it always focuses on her getting pleasure from them. We are always within reach of each other if in a full swap and will very often touch or hold hands. While it's going on I will pay attention to my partner but what I remember more is about my wife.

 

We don't look for multiple encounters. We like the anonymous aspect to an extent. Sure we'll get to know them a bit before having sex but we aren't trying to make friends out of them.

 

I'll edit to add that we don't fantasize about an encounter every time we have sex. It happens but more often than not we are making love only to one another. The thoughts will sometimes pop into my head, most of the time they don't. When they do I can usually push them out and go back to focusing on her. Sometimes she'll bring something up during sex but it will be more a fantasy than reliving a past experience. She's asked me what position I would like to have her in next time we are with a single guy or what kind of woman I'd like to have next time. Things like that.

[introvertswingr 55]

We have done that as well. And, yes, I love being in the same room and touching each other during. Keeping that connection going. Thanks for providing your point of view!

[g-lovers 21]

Agreatguy- thank you so much for your perspective. You’ve put into words so succinctly much of what Tom has described/explained over the years, and it truly helps to hear it from someone else.

 

A follow up- as soon as it became clear that I was not true to my words to ‘go ahead’, he put the brakes on and assured me it’s no longer an issue. To which I now feel like an asshole...because what is it that I’m concerned about? That he’ll fall in love with someone else? No. That he’ll decide he wants to be single again? No. So what? Why am I so inherently possessive of him? I had zero issues with sharing my husband of 15 years. Only compersion. Perhaps it’s the primacy issue, and perhaps it’s due to the poly disaster that ended my marriage. Time will tell, but I so appreciate everyone’s insight!

[Maybe 23]

We are still in our early stages in this hobby. Even at this point, I know that I will be fine with any activity that is done together (MFM, MFMF or FMF). However, I don't think I could ever deal with an open marriage, poly situation or hot-wife hobby. I am very open minded and don't see myself as a jealous type. But, at least for me, dating other people on the side is the same as being single. And, if I wanted to be single, I would be.

 

Maybe my views will change later on as we get more experienced in this hobby. I have made it clear to my wife that I am good with anything, as long as I am at least present (does not have to be same room). Hopefully, she feels the same. If not, it could be a problem someday

 

 

I have tried to analyze my feelings on this subject. Maybe it is a form of jealousy. Maybe it is a fear of losing her if she bonds with someone else emotionally. She has told me herself that sex for her can create endorphins, which could lead to an artificial bond. That is why she has never been a promiscuous woman, even when single, despite that fact that she has always been an open-minded and sexual being.

[Wornsilver 219]

Maybe, I wonder if your aversion to "apart" encounters may be due to your need to be her partner and protector. You can't be protecting her when you're not there. I find that to be one of my first responsibilities.

[MarniJohn 172]

I actually understand how you feel. No two people are ever in the "exact" situation, but I think I can help. My husband and I met in the lifestyle (I had been married for 20 years, he for 24). Long story short,we ended up together. We did not leave our spouses for each other but the relationship was a cause of one divorce.

When we came together as a couple, he was sure I would be willing to jump back into the lifestyle. I, too, wanted to make him happy and so we went right back. It was so hard for him to understand why I did not want to play with other people. I did not come to a forum for help because I did not want to hear the negative comments about how I didn't love him, etc. Honestly, I did love him, very much. I did not want others inside my shiny new relationship, I simply wasn't ready to share. I trusted him more than anyone I had ever been with, I wasn't concerned that he would find someone else. Communication? It wasn't solid yet. It was too early for me to be able to verbalize what bothered me.

Fast forward 3 years and I think we have finally gotten there. He was patient and I was trying hard to figure out why this bothere me so much. Seeing him with other women was so hard. Today, after so much discussions and trials, I am happy to be in the lifestyle and we have found that constant communication is key. We also only play side by side and we always make eye contact or touch at some point while playing with others. It is a process. It won't work if you don't approach it as a team. It might also help you to remember that the person he plays with for a night can enjoy him but he's going home with you. Good luck!