Swinging with a married man.

[cristo 15]

Spoo asks: Is this a serious question?

 

Yeah, it was. Let's take your experience as an example. If the girlfriend hadn't confided in you you never would have known what the boyfriend was doing. You would have gone into that room and probably come out with a good experience.

 

And you would have been enabling a "cheater and a liar." Chances are we have all enabled a cheater and a liar if we've played extensively in a swing club, whether we wanted to or not. You almost did spoo and you strike me as a fairly savvy person. I don't normally ask for a marriage certificate before I play with someone; I don't know anyone who does. In many ways, it's really none of my business why someone is in a swing club and who might be left behind.

 

If people really want to avoid consorting with cheaters and liars, one extremely effective solution would be to stay home with our spouses and lead monogamous lives and not put ourselves in a position where we can enable a cheater. That's what most people who oppose swinging would say.

[Spoomonkey 421]

cristo said:

Chances are we have all enabled a cheater and a liar if we've played extensively in a swing club, whether we wanted to or not. I don't normally ask for a marriage certificate before I play with someone; I don't know anyone who does.

 

This line of logic would be similar to, "we have run a red light, therefore we should always run red lights."

 

I have no illusions that we have unwittingly violated our own guidelines. My point is still, "we would not choose to do so." We do our best to "spot judge" the character of those we play with, but it doesn't always work. Our approach is not full proof. But why would you suggest that we loosen our guidelines because of this? It has eliminated more cheats than it has allowed.

 

People who cheat on their spouses are simply a turn off for us. Period. End of story. I don't see us (or the general attitude within the lifestyle) to change anytime soon. I can live with that.

[Spoomonkey 421]

iakatz said:

my belief is that she was probably a "hotwife"... The other married woman is separated and her divorce will become final soon.

 

This post encapsulates the entire reason why - even if a wife is "okay" with her husband cheating - we would not play with him. How many posts of justification and "clarifications" do you have to put up before you realize that it isn't going to change our minds?

 

If you re-read the responses, you will find that most of us (myself included) not only didn't call you a cheat, but stated that you were not one... But, what is the point of trying to sort out all of your relational issues in order to have a threesome?

 

Do what you want. Your choice. But know this - we do not play with married men alone. That is a choice that we have made. It is a choice that most couples in the lifestyle make. You may not agree with it - it may cramp your style - but it is the environment that you have to learn to be in if you want to swing. If you can't, you will likely be like the majority that Eternally Single talked about (wise man that he is) who tries, fails and disappears.

[stoutgatte 25]

Drknow said:

So be it, I will not sacrifice my marriage for a little pleasure

Let me add my  

 

It is my first post in this rather long thread, so please excuse me if it a little long winded...

 

b4real69 said:

Also to all of you seemingly righteous people that think that I am cheating, bottom line is that you all are cheating also.

 

Sorry bud, if your wife don't know its cheating. You can't go to her now and tell her, so sorry, if you have to lie to swing, you're cheating. As for me cheating on my wife (because of the wording of my marriage vows), I'd rather cheat (which I don't agree it is) on her while she's watching me. At least I'm honest about it. Pity he'll never read it, but my opinion nonetheless...

 

 

iakatz said:

I am probably a glutton for punishment but I feel compelled to reply to this thread.

 

Yes, you are. But it shows guts, honesty, openness and determination. Qualities I admire...

 

iakatz said:

Without going into a lot of graphic details, she was left not able to have a sexual relationship or the desire required to do so. I took her "in sickness and health" and I guess this is the sickness part. She knows that I have needs and has given me permission to seek out sex outside our marriage as long I'm discreet and do not flaunt it in front of her.

 

If she knows, you're not cheating. But realize that it's a common excuse for cheating.

 

iakatz said:

I read this thread and found most of the writers to be intolerant snobs that would probably sing a different tune if their sex life suddenly ended prematurely.

 

b4real69 is a cheat and I agree totally to every response he received. Your situation is so far removed this should have been a different thread. The responses to your post were rather supportive in my opinion. There was the initial post by Goodtimes that had a negative tone, but even they retorted with a toned down version which clearly stated that they don't think you are a cheater.

 

 

Good Times said:

You went on to say that you had sexual relations with cheating married woman, you do realize, don't you, that it takes two to cheat, so that would automatically make you a cheater right there.

 

The fact that he's helping others to cheat is typically a bad idea, but in my opinion it does not make him a cheat by default. There are two circumstances where I find this acceptable, ie when you don't know the other person is married (they actively deceive you), or when they have been separated for a reasonable time and are not trying to patch things up.

 

 

iakatz said:

I always tell the truth when it comes to my situation but most have the same attitude that you do. I would probably be better off to lie and say that I'm single but that kind of deception is not for me.

 

Good for you... As for most having that attitude I strongly believe being able to talk to your wife about it would void their argument and take away the suspicion. I hope your wife is really comfortable with this situation, as others have pointed out it sounds to me like she has issues with it, and is only allowing you this out of guilt, which is a bad thing.

 

 

Spoomonkey said:

But, giving you the benefit of the doubt, it is simply a matter of choice for us. We would not play with anyone - even if they had a note from their SO - if we could not meet and discuss the matter with the SO...

BradAndJanet said:

there's no way we're going to play with you unless we can talk to your wife first. There's simply no way to verify your story otherwise...

 

I'll add my voice to this...

 

cristo said:

To me, that just shuts the conversation down and I was hoping I found a board that was less judgmental of the sexual choices people make. Was I wrong?

cristo said:

Thanks for the guidance. I didn't realize this site was meant for only a certain type of swinger. I stand corrected.

 

Think you misread the answer. Even swingers have morals. My version of it (which agrees with many people I know) says that married men cheating on their wives should not be in the swinging lifestyle.

 

 

cristo said:

One writer said single men "don't bring anything to the table" as if a single man's sexuality wasn't enough.

 

If the single man is open and honest he'll find himself welcomed into most circles where single men are sought after... You'll find prejudice everywhere. Prejudice against married men swinging as singles is widely spread, even I have it ...

 

cristo said:

My point is simply that until I know the dynamics of someone's marriage, I'm really in no position to make a sweeping judgment call about someones honesty or character.

 

Very true.

 

cristo said:

But here is what confuses me. (And maybe its just because my spouse and I weren't looking for deep and meaningful friendships with our play partners.) Why the deep emphasis on someone's "honesty and trustworthiness" when we're talking about recreational sex?

 

An attraction to the other couple/person is important for us. As most swingers value honesty, openness and trust in their own lives above most other values, these qualities (or the lack thereof) will ensure that they never find cheaters or liars attractive, even if the other couple/person is a supermodel...

 

cristo said:

I can't start casting stones.

 

But you are...

 

Spoomonkey said:

The Ms in their relationship, alone with me, tells me how much fun they have in the lifestyle, but they aren't really a couple - in fact, he has a girlfriend who would die if she found out what was going on...

 

We've had a similar experience, and we turned them down too...

 

cristo said:

Let's take your experience as an example. If the girlfriend hadn't confided in you you never would have known what the boyfriend was doing. You would have gone into that room and probably come out with a good experience.

 

Yeah, they would have had a great time. Once they found out about the deceit they were just a victim of, they would have felt used and (most probably) angry. No way to have fond memories of an encounter...

 

cristo said:

And you would have been enabling a "cheater and a liar." Chances are we have all enabled a cheater and a liar if we've played extensively in a swing club, whether we wanted to or not.

 

True, but we can try to avoid it...

 

Spoo said:

I have no illusions that we have unwittingly violated our own guidelines.

 

Couldn't you wait till I finished posting, Spoo????

 

cristo said:

If people really want to avoid consorting with cheaters and liars, one extremely effective solution would be to stay home with our spouses and lead monogamous lives

 

Again true, but then on that same line of reasoning you'd have to stay home (since driving a car is a risk of death), or would that be outside (since an earthquake might hit and kill you), and never talk to anyone (since they might have the EBOLA virus) etc, etc...

 

Alas, I have nothing more to add. Sorry that it turned out so long, but I had so much to say...

[good times 991]

A couple of you here are so busy preaching on your soap boxes that you missed what was meant by my wife not wanting to know. She knows when I meet someone and is fully aware of what I'm doing; I don't do this behind her back in any way. She does not care to know WHO I am with, she trusts my judgment and does not want to influence me one way or the other.

 

In this case you, would not be cheating, in my opinion. As I've said before, I don't have any problem with someone swinging with their spouses knowledge and consent.

 

As far as me seeing the two married women that I referred to, one of the two never would say for sure what her marital status was. I only knew her first name and that it took her aprox 30 minutes to get to the place where we met the one and only time. She was too confident to be cheating and too secretive to be single, my belief is that she was probably a "hotwife". The other married woman is separated and her divorce will become final soon. I really like her a lot and we have been together 3 times so far, she likes me because I don't beat her like her soon to be "X" did. Yes...she is still legally married so I suppose this could be considered cheating, especially by a couple of you, but I really don't feel that way.

 

As others have said, it is possible for anyone to be missled. The possibility of being missled has been one of the influences in our decision to only swing with couples. As far as the woman who is seperated in the process of a divorce, I don't have a problem with that either and wouldn't consider that cheating.

 

Here's your chance, Good Times and Spookmonkey, to preach and tell me (and especially everyone else) what a low down son-of-a-bitch I am.

 

I am sorry that you have interpreted my posts that way. I have simply been responding here to the idea that it is somehow possible to justify cheating on ones spouse. As you don't appear to be fitting that description, I don't understand why you would take what I've said as a personall attack or put down. So far as I can tell, the only place I have disagreed with you is that you originally posted here in defense of someone who was trying to justify cheating on his wife. The situation that you presented in regards to your wife is completely different than the one presented by the original poster.

 

You two really seem to get off on putting others down who don't fit your brand of morality. soapbox

 

I believe these forums to be a place where you express your opinions and share ideas. If we all agreed then it wouldn't be very interesting. I have read over this whole thread and can't find any instance where I did anything other than give my honest opinion.

[mokytag02 56]

My problem with this whole thing is twofold. Most of the guys who have tried to meet my wife alone have been married guys who were cheating on their wives so they had no qualms about trying to get my wife to do the same. I guess they think I don't read the mail too. The second is this guys name is B4real. You aren't for real buddy. We have played with married guys but only when their wives had no problem with it and yes we talked to them.

[cpl4playmass 31]

We talked about this last night and for us it's a matter of "practice of values". Most couples who entertain coming into the lifestyle or who are in it, have worked so hard on communication, honesty, and loving one another that the thought of hanging out with or being with a person or persons who don't practice such value sets in their own relationships to be unattractive. When you work so hard to make your relationships work it is a real turn-off to be around people who don't. I don't hang around people who don't try in life. I won't hang around or be with dishonest people. I won't have much in common with someone who doesn't know how to be loving. I don't hang around people who cannot control their liquor.

 

We discriminate because we have values, but we don't do it for the wrong reasons. We do it for the right reasons, because our values are different. A married man not informing his wife does not hold the same value system we do.

 

K, nuff said

[OhioCouple 41]

iakatz original posting said this on 7/26/2004:

She knows that I have needs and has given me permission to seek out sex outside our marriage as long I'm discreet and do not flaunt it in front of her. She has told me that she does not want to know who I'm with or the details, but I'm free to come and go as I please.

 

His posting on 7/28/2004 relays this story:

She knows when I meet someone and is fully aware of what I'm doing; I don't do this behind her back in any way. She does not care to know WHO I am with, she trusts my judgment and does not want to influence me one way or the other.

 

His posting on 7/26/2004 said this about those he has had sex with:

So I have sought out sex outside my marriage...I guess that makes me a "cheater" in most folks eyes and less than a decent human being. I don't have the luxury of sitting in judgement of the people I have come in contact with in this endeavor. They have consisted of mainly lonely married women (yes...they were cheating), a couple of single ones and one married couple.

 

His posting on 7/28/2004 said this:

As far as me seeing the two married women that I referred to, one of the two never would say for sure what her marital status was. I only knew her first name and that it took her aprox 30 minutes to get to the place where we met the one and only time. She was too confident to be cheating and too secretive to be single, my belief is that she was probably a "hotwife". The other married woman is separated and her divorce will become final soon.

 

IMO, respondents answered to the given knowledge of what was written on 7/26, yet we were met with an opening line of:

A couple of you here are so busy preaching on your soap boxes that you missed what was meant by my wife not wanting to know.

 

Maybe swingers are not only considered free and easy sex hounds, but psychics as well.

 

I ask you iakatz, to review your original posting and ask yourself how you could have gotten any better opinions out of your written word. I don't think we are the ones on the soapbox here... :rollseyes

[stoutgatte 25]

iakatz said:

The other married woman is separated and her divorce will become final soon. I really like her a lot and we have been together 3 times so far, she likes me because I don't beat her like her soon to be "X" did.

 

I seem to have read this so many times without commenting on it... This woman is without a doubt a threat to your marriage, she needs an emotional and physical support structure in her life and you may just become it. Please think really hard about continuing your pursuit of this relationship.

 

If it's casual sex you're after please look elsewhere or accept that you're willing to risk losing your wife for this woman.

[cristo 15]

As you can probably gather from my posts, I'm of the "live and let live" wing of the Swingers Party. If being with a cheater turns you off, that really is all that needs to be said.

 

I'm just against a blanket moral condemnation.

 

When it comes to marriage, I think fidelity can be measured by more than just sex. And when you think about the enormous pressures people in marriages now face, sexual fidelity in many ways should be the least of it.

 

Maybe that's why people who aren't swingers think swingers in general are less hung up about the morality of sex. Just speaking for myself, I view sex as recreation. It can be more or less, obviously, and depending on mood and circumstances it has been more and less. But in general its recreation and I honestly don't see it as a determining factor in whether someone has been faithful to me.

 

Given that most people I've met at swing clubs also view sex as recreation and not something with enormous emotional weight, it's understandable that people outside of the lifestyle would view our attitudes about sex as being more liberal and permissive. And that would include married men and single men trying to get into the lifestyle.

 

But you know what, this has been a conversation dominated by the guys and I really think the women who frequent this forum should weigh in. In many ways, they are the ones most effected here.

 

What say ye ladies?

[Spoomonkey 421]

cpl4playmass said:

Most couples who entertain coming into the lifestyle or who are in it, have worked so hard on communication, honesty, and loving one another that the thought of hanging out with or being with a person or persons who don't practice such value sets in their own relationships to be unattractive.

 

We discriminate because we have values, but we don't do it for the wrong reasons. We do it for the right reasons, because our values are different.

 

There have been a lot of words on this thread so far, but these are truly among the best. Thanks for this post. It certainly sums up my thoughts in a way better than I was able to.

[Mrs Spoomonkey 118]

cristo said:

But you know what, this has been a conversation dominated by the guys and I really think the women who frequent this forum should weigh in. In many ways, they are the ones most effected here.

 

What say ye ladies?

 

Okay you want to hear from the ladies . . .

 

Mr Spoo and I have different screen names so we can post to the things that are of interest to us, however we are back to back on our computers and read and discuss our posts. Usually only if there is a big difference in opinion (or we just have our own funnies to add) we both won't jump on the same band wagon.

 

So if your hearing from one your hearing from both of us. I have watched and read this thread with him, we have discussed the different posts and I didn't see the need to post because we are in agreement. I also know a lot of the other couples around the board handle their posts in a similar way.

 

But if your fear is that there are just a bunch of males dominating the board with their opinions with no regard to what their wives think then I wonder if you really understand the lifestyle at all.

 

In answer to your burning question of what the ladies think . . . we don't swing with married men without their wives!!! I see no need to elaborate further on that statement since it has been debated for five pages now. That's our choice, everyone can make their own decisions.

[cristo 15]

Quote

But if your fear is that there are just a bunch of males dominating the board with their opinions with no regard to what their wives think then I wonder if you really understand the lifestyle at all.

 

In answer to your burning question of what the ladies think . . . we don't swing with married men without their wives!!! I see no need to elaborate further on that statement since it has been debated for five pages now. That's our choice, everyone can make their own decisions.

 

Well Mrs. maybe I don't know the lifestyle the way you do. But I would never presume to speak for my wife. She has her own opinion on this and many other issues. I didn't think swinging meant groupthink.

 

And all I'm trying to do is broaden the conversation by inviting women to join in. Is there a problem with that?

 

I mean is it really true that every swinging couple agrees on every issue or doesn't have a different take, which you seem to be implying?

 

BTW: I respect your decision not to play with married men or married women who are "cheaters." I'm just asking for less condemnation. Don't swingers face enough of that themselves?

[Spoomonkey 421]

Mrs Spoomonkey said:

Mr Spoo and I have different screen names so we can post to the things that are of interest to us, however we are back to back on our computers and read and discuss our posts. Usually only if there is a big difference in opinion (or we just have our own funnies to add) we both won't jump on the same band wagon.

 

I take this to mean that when we do differ in opinion, she chimes in... And trust me - when she doesn't agree with me, she has a rather loud chime...

 

cristo said:

I mean is it really true that every swinging couple agrees on every issue or doesn't have a different take, which you seem to be implying??

 

Do you even read the posts you are replying to?

 

cristo said:

BTW: I respect your decision not to play with married men or married women who are "cheaters." I'm just asking for less condemnation. Don't swingers face enough of that themselves?

 

Honestly, I haven't received all that much condemnation... Not sure what condemnation you are talking about...

 

Swingers and cheaters are not the same. We are not just "equally open" on sexual issues - we are two totally different breeds. That said, I do not think that there has been a shred of personal condemnation from the swingers who have replied to you. If there has been, I've certainly missed it. We have simply stated our opinions, which is the point of the thread as I see it.

[cristo 15]

Quote

Honestly, I haven't received all that much condemnation... Not sure what condemnation you are talking about...

 

Swingers and cheaters are not the same. We are not just "equally open" on sexual issues - we are two totally different breeds. That said, I do not think that there has been a shred of personal condemnation from the swingers who have replied to you. If there has been, I've certainly missed it. We have simply stated our opinions, which is the point of the thread as I see it.

 

Not a shred of personal condemnation?

 

Here's a fair reading of the opinions expressed here by some:

 

Cheaters are: liars, dishonest, selfish, lousy lovers who would don't have the ethical or moral underpinnings needed to be trusted with my wife. They will just try and steal her away. I'm not going to bother quoting each and every individual posting, but these have generally been the words used.

 

That kind of blanket condemnation of an individual -- and we're talking about individuals here -- is hurtful. And personal.

 

I wonder how much of this comes from a moral imperative and how much from personal insecurity.

[Mrs Spoomonkey 118]

cristo said:

Well Mrs. maybe I don't know the lifestyle the way you do. But I would never presume to speak for my wife. She has her own opinion on this and many other issues. I didn't think swinging meant groupthink.

 

And all I'm trying to do is broaden the conversation by inviting women to join in. Is there a problem with that?

 

I mean is it really true that every swinging couple agrees on every issue or doesn't have a different take, which you seem to be implying?

 

BTW: I respect your decision not to play with married men or married women who are "cheaters." I'm just asking for less condemnation. Don't swingers face enough of that themselves?

 

You obviously don't pay attention to what the person is saying when you reply to their posts. I didn't say Mr Spoo spoke for me I said when we agree and have discussed the post I see no reason for both of us to be on the same thread saying the same thing. Trust me when I have a different opinion (which is why I have my own screen name) I post it!

 

I also didn't 'imply' that all swinging couples agree on every issue. I said that a lot of us whether each partner in the couple has a separate screen name or one joint one usually discuss and talk about the threads etc.

 

I also didn't say we don't play with married men or married women who are "cheaters" (quote me correctly please) I said we don't play with married men without their wives. We do same room with all four involved in a couple scenario or we play with "single" men.

 

I was also not condemning. We have merely made a choice that fits our lifestyle, after all we're who we got into the lifestyle for. If someone else chooses to play a different way then that is fine.

 

There is no problem with you "trying to broaden the conversation" by inviting the women but really don't you think if the women wanted to chime in they would. Have you read some of the threads that involve the women, trust me we all have our opinions and are not afraid to express them . . . maybe they just weren't interested in this thread or enough had already been said.

[Spoomonkey 421]

cristo said:

Not a shred of personal condemnation?

 

Nope - not a shred... Whom have we personally condemned? A general condemnation of cheating? Yeah - I'll go along with that.

 

cristo said:

I wonder how much of this comes from a moral imperative and how much from personal insecurity.

 

I would say that all of my position comes from a personal decision... Not at all based on personal insecurity. If you'd like to label it a moral imperative, be my guest.

[cristo 15]

Mrs Spoomonkey said:

I also didn't say we don't play with married men or married women who are "cheaters" (quote me correctly please) I said we don't play with married men without their wives. We do same room with all four involved in a couple scenario or we play with "single" men.

 

Sorry if I misquoted or misinterpreted you Mrs. I was under the impression that you and spoo don't play with cheaters given spoo's position. I thought that's what he said in prior posts. Also you seemed to imply in your comment some notion that husbands and wives are generally in agreement and if I didn't know that you wondered how well I "understood the lifestyle." My apologies if that's not what you meant.

 

And yeah I think any woman who wants to jump in this probably would have and I was curious why they hadn't.

[OhioCouple 41]

cristo said:

But you know what, this has been a conversation dominated by the guys and I really think the women who frequent this forum should weigh in. In many ways, they are the ones most effected here.

 

What say ye ladies?

 

My apologies, Cristo. I am so used to folks around here knowing that I do nearly all of the posting and did not think to sign with Mrs. O. Out of over 6,000 postings, I believe Mr. O has only typed three...maybe four. However when expressing on behalf of both of us, I do try to remember to use the term 'we' (something I obviously fail at.) . If it is merely my opinion only, I type in the first person and if we are at disagreement on an issue (Mr. O and I) I will express his side, as well as mine in the same posting. Our opinions tho are so closely united that even when I appear to speak on behalf of myself, I am most assuredly expressing our beliefs.

[Mrs Spoomonkey 118]

cristo said:

Sorry if I misquoted or misinterpreted you Mrs. I was under the impression that you and spoo don't play with cheaters given spoo's position. I thought that's what he said in prior posts.

 

Married men without their wives. . . . . cheaters fall under this description but so do swingers who do separate rooms, etc. We don't play with singles unless they are singles. Couples together. I don't like cheaters but if we play in the confines of couples together and singles then we don't have to deal with them or their reasons for why they do it.

[iakatz 15]

OhioCouple said:

There is absolutely "NO VALID" reason in our opinion, that condones one half of a party to have sex with others outside of a "COMMITTED" relationship just because they need some more excitement or whatever lowly excuse they come up with.

 

We can argue the status of single vs. married until the cows come home, but the plain and simple fact of the matter is...if you are in a committed relationship and your significant other doesn't care to play with you, then keep your tool where it belongs. Your bedroom.

 

This is one of the posts that rubbed me the wrong way in the beginning plus others that were similar in other threads about single men or married men playing alone. You are entitled to your own opinions and value systems but to label everyone, in this case married men playing alone, as undesirable or as one poster referred to us as "Jerks" is pretty unfair. I took offense to it when I probably should have let it go as I had always done before. My situation is different than what most of you are referring to but being labeled as something you are really not is quite hurtful. Not all married guys like me are evil or just on this earth to steal your wife away from you. One could say that all swingers have loose morals and will all burn in Hell. This is also an inaccurate and stereotypical nasty comment which I, and I'm sure all of you would agree, is not true. I knew that I would get flamed for my remarks but what surprises me is how many of you think I'm making this up. Well...I didn't. I revealed more of my private life than I intended to in the beginning, I wrote more details to clarify and some of you have grilled me for that too. Maybe I'm just not very skilled in getting my point across. It doesn't really matter if you believe my situation or you don't, life goes on. I wish that my wife hadn't had the cancer that caused our sex life to come to a screeching halt. I really envy you couples out there who can and do swing with other couples and have fun doing so. We were considering this just prior to her surgery but never acted on it. She wanted to divorce me so that I could go on with a normal life but I was opposed to this, I didn't want to loose her. Our arrangement was a compromise to stay together, it's not perfect and seems to offend some of you but it's working for us. I've never been to a swing club or party and probably never will so you don't have to worry about that either. I just hope that you consider the feelings of others before you openly condemn them...they may just be telling the truth.

 

This is my last posting and will go back to lurking here if I come here at all again. This lifestyle is about couples and I'm a single so I'll never fit in. I'd like to thank you for letting me read your posts over the last couple of years and hope you all get what you are looking for.

 

Love and laughs to you.

[cristo 15]

My apologies, Cristo. I am so used to folks around here knowing that I do nearly all of the posting and did not think to sign with Mrs. O..

 

No apologies necessary Mrs. O and a pleasure to meet you.

[cristo 15]

iakatz said:

This is my last posting and will go back to lurking here if I come here at all again. This lifestyle is about couples and I'm a single so I'll never fit in.

 

I hope this isn't true because I think everyone has a right to be heard from. But I wish you and your wife good luck and better times.

[OhioCouple 41]

iakatz said:

This is one of the posts that rubbed me the wrong way in the beginning plus others that were similar in other threads about single men or married men playing alone.

As you chose to quote me, iakatz...I have to wonder why it rubbed you the wrong way. My response was to this particular post, which is also the starter of this thread.

 

b4real69 said:

I've read a couple of messages that indicate some couples have a problem meeting with a married man. I'm a married man and I swing when I get a chance which isn't very often. Swinging with a married man can have some good points about it. I know there are some bad such as causing his marriage to break up but if you meet with him and take the time to learn some things you can usually find out how truthful he is. Some of us married men love our wives. Some of us have great sex lives with our wives but just need that little extra excitement once in a while. We are not bad guys. My wife and I did swing together at one time. As time went on she didn't care to continue. Being a male with a very strong sex drive it is hard for me to not want to swing. I don't want to swing with a single woman because I do not want another single person to have the least little chance of coming between my wife and I. With a couple it is only about sex. There is less of a threat of a married man causing trouble between the couple. Married men are more likely to be disease free. Give a married man a try. Take the time to learn a little about him and if you reach the point you feel comfortable with him go for it. But please don't discount us completely.

 

And then the follow up posting which did NOT address whether or not his wife was aware of his need for sex "two times a day, seven days a week" or condoned his seeking sexual pleasure else where.

 

Quote

b4real69 said:

In answer to Twinkletoes----------What kind of a response are you all expecting from me? I made my point. It's my opinion all of you have made yours. I respect your opinions and I feel you all need to do what feels right for you. I will say this. As far as sex with my wife, we probably have better sex than most of you. I have no problem with the sex with my wife. No sex between the two of us is taboo. She is like the majority of women and sex more than 4 times a week at the age of 45 is enough for her and I certainly would not want to pressure her. I have a much stronger sex drive than most men and would have it twice a day 7 days a week. I don't run out and do this. I don't go out and find sex with single women and I don't make up excuses for going out. If I have the opportunity to enjoy sex with a MARRIED couple I incorporate it in my day with other things I need to do that take me out of the house. All the messages are in the negative. All the ones that you can read here at least. What you all don't get to see are the private messages I've received and all the emails that are positive to my viewpoint. Like I said..I respect all of your comments and opinions. Also to all of you seemingly righteous people that think that I am cheating, bottom line is that you all are cheating also. Read your marriage vows again. They don't say it is ok to have sex with others as long as your partner agrees. You can swing and put me down but to the majority of married people in this world you are cheating and doing the wrong thing. You know that is true. How many are open with ALL of their friends and acquaintances and tell them you are swingers. I won't be responding to this any more because I didn't write the original message to cause any problems. I just stated my opinion.

 

b4real69 did NOT have a problem (according to his written words) having sexual relations with his wife. Quite the opposite. In fact, a majority of folks in that age group would be thinking "WOO HOO!" and be very envious of the fact that they can still do the ditty four times a week. Most folks lead very demanding lives and are still running kids to athletic events, fulfilling obligations with the PTA, working and mainlining the lawn and the interior of their homes while trying to find a free moment where they can at least have dinner together before collapsing, much less cuddling up for some sex. Those kind of folks are going to be in the minority...most definitely not as b4real69 described the sexuality of 'most women'.

 

I (Mrs.O), take exception to your posting of:

 

Quote

iakatz said:

This is my last posting and will go back to lurking here if I come here at all again. This lifestyle is about couples and I'm a single so I'll never fit in.

You are not single, by your own admittance. You are a married man, and that, iakatz, nixes you from using the title of being single. Borrowing the phrase to describe yourself is, IMO (Mrs. O) an insult to folks like Eternally Single, PA_Chip, Curious24....just to name a few off of the top of my head.

 

Mrs. O

[OhioCouple 41]

No apologies necessary Mrs. O and a pleasure to meet you.

And a pleasure to meet you also, Cristo.

 

Mrs. O

[OhioCouple 41]

Married men without their wives. . . . . cheaters fall under this discription but so do swingers who do separate rooms, etc.

Mrs. Spoo, can you clarify this for me? Do ya'll feel if couples swing in separate rooms they are cheating?

[Guest htshot102]

I just finished reading the discussion on a married man acting like a single. I did that before when I was married and in fact it was cheating. As a single man now my interest in the lifestyle is not just for sex (like it was when I was married) but some of the friendship I hope to find. I'm not ready for another committed relationship with another woman at this time. I gave a lot for a long period of time in my failed marriage and did without for a very long time before I cheated. Wish it hadn't been that way--but it is what it is. As a true single I am free to really hook up with another person or couple - that would never have been the case when I was cheating. I'm a first time member to this site as of today - I am learning a lot. Thanks for the open and honest forum - it's very refreshing!

 

[BodyScape02 21]

Those married men that are wondering what bad thing could possibly happen when they are swinging with their wife's knowledge should take the time to read the story of mr. twoloves on this thread

 

Wife Wants To Roll Solo...Now What....

 

Then take some time to think about it. Sooner or later the goose is going to think...if it’s good enough for the gander... then who will be sorry?

[jcbicouple 24]

stoutgatte said:

Yeah, they would have had a great time. Once they found out about the deceit they were just a victim of, they would have felt used and (most probably) angry. No way to have fond memories of an encounter...

 

Just wanted to add an experience of ours that supports this. A few months ago we met a single guy. Turns out he was married. The guy was and is a complete moron as far as we're concerned. Not only did he deceive us, but once we found out it ruined the entire experience. Especially for me (female). All of a sudden I felt like I was doing something wrong. This idiot made us potentially hurt an innocent person. We are NOT in this to hurt people and if you are a cheater: You are hurting your spouse. We have no interest in helping anyone do this! No one who is being cheated on, and lied to ever feels good about it. We will NOT knowingly hurt someone for sex. It's wrong. period.

 

If you have an open relationship and you both have permission: It's not cheating, and you have a totally different situation. We have no issues with people playing separate, only with people who hurt others because they are selfish and inconsiderate.

 

Unfortunately, because of the cheaters that are out there (male and female) many people in open relationships do get turned away. There is no way to know that they are not cheating except to meet both people. We are another couple who doesn't meet half of a couple. For the most part, we have been able to avoid people like the guy above, but there is always a chance you'll run into someone who's good at being deceitful. We suggest that if you're really open; you consider meeting others together for the first meeting. Then they'll know that you are for real.

[mrs good times 73]

I am one of the girls on this board like Mrs. Spoo who also has my own screen name. And like Mrs. Spoo, Mr. and I look at the board together and also have facing desks. If I feel the need to speak up on my own I do, just as I did earlier in this thread. However, I made the point I wanted to and found no reason to post again as this thread seems to me to have become a continuous circle of repitition.

[desert_dwellers 18]

In an effort to break the continuous circle of repetition, I thought I would post my experience as a result of reading this post.

 

My wife and I are VERY new to the lifestyle. I don't think we could even be called swingers as we have never been to a club, party, gathering, meeting, etc. nor have we played with other couples or singles. Like many things in our lives we decided to jump in feet first and see what happens.

 

Per the guidance of the regulars....I have read many posts to this board and that is why I know many of you may disapprove of what came next. I allowed my wife to go solo with a guy she met online. A married man at that. She played with him solo a couple of times and then they mutually terminated the arrangement. He says he was "working things out with his wife", she says "the fun wore out".

 

From what I have read on this board, many would disapprove. This is usually an indication of problems in the marriage. Quite the contrary. When my wife came home we had the most amazing sex we have had in a long time. Unknowingly, I had become a "cuckold" (new term to me, hope I'm using it correctly). I was excited by my wife being pleased by having sex with other men.

 

BUT

 

Something was nagging me. Even though I genuinely enjoyed the experience, something was bothering me.

 

Tonight she planned to meet with another guy that she met online. This one was "hot", a once in a lifetime lay. Again, I had not problem with her playing with him but something was still nagging me.

 

And then it hit me...

 

The problem wasn't that she was going solo with these guys OR that they were married. The problem was that their wives didn't know what was going on.

 

THIS WAS CHEATING!!!!

 

I confronted her about it and we had a long conversation. It's true what they say folks, communication is the key. She canceled her meeting with this guy and vowed never again to play with married men who dont' include their wives.

 

Bottom line: I completely agree with the wise regulars on this board. Cheating ALWAYS ends up hurting somebody and is not the way to go. If you find yourself in a situation where you feel the need to hide something from your spouse, you need to seriously think about your situation.

[stoutgatte 25]

cristo said:

Cheaters are: liars, dishonest, selfish, lousy lovers who would don't have the ethical or moral underpinnings needed to be trusted with my wife. They will just try and steal her away.

 

Well, I never read any post that claimed anyone was a selfish, lousy lover. On the other hand, for the person to cheat, they have to lie and be dishonest, else we certainly wouldn't call it cheating.

 

As for trying to steal her away, for people to cheat there is typically (not always) something wrong at home. His missus isn't as perfect as yours is and your missus is a great shag... Sounds like plenty of motivation for him to try his luck. Who knows, maybe he pushes the right button. We prefer to avoid the risk, what you do is up to you...

[Mrs Spoomonkey 118]

OhioCouple said:

Mrs. Spoo, can you clarify this for me? Do ya'll feel if couples swing in separate rooms they are cheating?

 

No I did not mean that at all. Sorry for the confusion. I know some couples do separate rooms and that if fine it is a choice they make as a couple. I was only pointing out that we do same room only so if one of those couples wants to play with us it would have to be same room or we wouldn't play with them. We haven't run into this before because most we've met do same room too or do both depending on who they are with.

 

I hope that answered your question thanks for asking me to clarify it

[realcouple30 15]

We would never want to do anything that would hurt anyone. We can only imagine how devastated a spouse would be to learn that their husband/wife was swinging without their knowledge-We would think it would be devastating. Its one thing if the couple are open and knowledgeable about things, its another if one side is keeping secrets.

 

If someone isn't being honest with their spouse about their activites, we feel that would be wrong.

[rj3040 15]

This lady is not interested in a married man who won't / can't bring his wife for me to play with. If all I want is a male I can have that ANY day. I like people in pairs. I MIGHT consider a married fellow in a group IF I had talked to his wife and KNEW FOR SURE that she didn't mind, permission from her lovely lips would be about the only thing that would sway me. There are just too many men out there who are REALLY single for me to enjoy. I'm not looking for baggage, emotional problems, hurt spouses or games, I just want to have fun! Why should I waste my time? If I want to play single, I GET single. Men can do the same. Just my take. I get to live with how I live and I get to make choices that I am comfortable with. Married men who lie to me are STEALING from me, my right to make those choices. Why on earth would I be interested in that?!

 

Just my 2 cents on an ongoing topic. Ya wanted to hear from ladies...

 

[spunky2005 15]

I'm married, but my wife cheated on me when I was in Iraq. I would never lie to a woman and say I'm single. But I kinda want to get some on the side now because she did it. That's not so bad is it?

[jennandjamesinm 87]

I'm married, but my wife cheated on me when I was in Iraq. I would never lie to a woman and say I'm single. But I kinda want to get some on the side now because she did it. Thats not so bad is it?

 

Ever heard of the old saying, "Two wrongs don't make a right." Instead of spending your time trolling for a woman to sleep with to get back at your wife - Spend that time trying to fix the relationship.

 

Jenn

[spunky2005 15]

I don't need fix anything. I don't want "to get back at her". We are happily married. I just said I kinda want to get some on the side. I'm not trolling for anything.

[Spoomonkey 421]

spunky2005 said:

I don't need fix anything. I don't want "to get back at her". We are happily married. I just said I kinda want to get some on the side. I'm not trolling for anything.

 

Let's take a quick look at this...

 

1. "I don't need to fix anything."

 

Great! So everything is working just fine in your relationship! Excellent! Communication, intimacy, vision, oneness of purpose... That is a place few couples can claim to be. I applaud you.

 

2. "I don't want 'to get back at her'."

 

And why should you? She made a mistake, but since you two are in the place of not needing to fix anything, then you have certainly discussed the problem, forgiven the mistake and found ways to move past this as a couple.

 

3. "We are happily married."

 

This is awesome! Such a great sign of the maturity and forgiveness that you have as a husband - and the strength that your wife has to move on as well, realizing her transgression and working to rebuild the foundation of trust that was undoubtedly rocked by it. To be "happily married" after something as painful as infidelity is an incredible achievement.

 

4. "I kinda want to get some on the side."

 

Ouch...

 

Well - let's take a positive look at this then...

 

So - inspired by your wife's contrition and your own ability to forgive - and seeing how strongly that you, as a couple, have bounced back from something like cheating, you have decided "what the hell? We went through it once, we can go through it again."

 

Sure, she will hurt just as bad as you did and the process of rebuilding to a happy marriage will be just as tough - but if you did it once, you can surely do it again. Why not roll the dice?

 

Besides, the last time around, you were the forgiver - this just gives her a chance to be as loving and forgiving as you were...

 

And you have the chance to be just as slimy as she was...

 

I like that...

 

Karma...

 

The yin and the yang...

 

In a way, you are doing her a favor. You are removing all illusions about the depth of your forgiveness and the true "happiness" of your marriage. You are providing her with the harsh reality that the husband who loved her, even though she cheated, is really just taking her error and using it as a "free ride" to get "a little on the side." It's not payback, it's license...

 

But the cost of that license is likely the happy marriage that you say that you have.

[HotMoCpl 20]

I've been thinking about this for about a week now, and have considered the same exact feelings. Quite frankly I'm sure my wife has considered the same idea. Last week we went out dancing......and the for the very first time she said something about another man. She liked the door bouncer. Tomorrow night we're going back there and I'm going to check him out a little further. I think if he's married we might give it a shot.

[Driven2please 15]

Honestly, I began to sign up, then stopped for some reason, read quite a bit of the forums, then decided to sign up anyways. I guess you could say I belong in the "pariah" group, as a Married "single" guy.

 

Why even bother to post? I guess my "mission", if you will, is to enlighten some of the closed minds. I know that I will be flamed as a cheater. Hold onto your keyboards. I haven't cheated. Maybe in the future, who knows?

 

Before automatically assuming that a person such as myself is a lecherous jerk, let me ask you to identify cheating. Is it the act of having a different partner? If so, that would identify every active swinger, correct?? What if that Married guy had "permission"? Wouldn't he be the same as the male in a swinging couple? The fact that the wife isn't playing, really isn't germane, so long as he is advertised as a "single" and has permission.

 

But the guy whose wife, who refuses to play is still looked at as a leper in the community. He is the worst kind of a "cheater".

 

Yes, I understand there are many men (and women) who pose as Singles. Pose as married with permission. Etc. There are also couples who simply use this venue for "private entertainment". Meaning, that they will set up a meeting, and get cold feet and back out. My thought would be that they had no intentions of ever meeting.

 

Let's take this one step further, if you are able to open your minds to possible circumstances before acting as judge and jury.

 

Let's take a happily married man, who enjoys a healthy sex life at home, who yearns to experience the lifestyle for so many years. He doesn't want to leave her for another woman. He doesn't just want to get his rocks off.

 

If he did, he would be in the bars. Quite successfully, with much less hassle.

 

He wants to feel the same exhilaration that he felt when he first met his wife. We wants to replay those same nervous stomach incidents of the exploration of a new partner, but TRULY prefer to do that with his wife again. To further explore flavors other than vanilla. To be part of a MFM or a FMF. The very fantasies that led most of you here. And she wants no part of it, regardless of the angles of persuasion. The woman you dearly love, wants no part of fulfilling fantasies you have had for so many years. She can not get past the "heavy hand of religious dominance" that says this is wrong.

 

You couples that indulge, are truly fortunate. Able to ward off jealousy, and be confident enough in your relationship that you can allow each other to enjoy the company of another "lover". Its not all about the sex, IMO. The relationships, the sexual tensions, the anticipation buildup... It must be a powerful drug. I envy you.

 

This isn't posted as a whine-fest. It is more of a plea to ask you to look further than what's directly in front of you. Its to ask you to realize that even married men want the very same things that YOU did, when you came here.

 

I surrender, but flame if you must..

[Spoomonkey 421]

Driven2please said:

This isn't posted as a whine-fest.

 

Sometimes we hit the bull's eye that we aren't aiming for

 

The problem with your "logic" is this: Swinging couples play within the boundaries of BOTH partners. Married men who decide to swing solo, even though their wife won't for whatever reason (oppressive religious ideas are certainly a common culprit) are NOT treating their wives with the same respect.

 

They are crossing the established boundaries of their marriage.

 

It is cheating. Having different partners does not make it cheating - it's the lying and deceit that does.

 

I honestly do feel sorry for anyone who is "unequally yoked." But the truth is, you really have two options - one is to do the honorable thing and respect the boundaries of you marriage (or be honest and tell your wife that you are going to swing and let the chips fall where they may). The other option is dishonorable - and that is to lie to your wife, the couples you play with and yourself (when you tell yourself that no one is getting hurt).

 

No one can tell you which path to choose. But then again - none of us have to live with the consequences.

[tribbles 490]

It's the 'space' and emotional distance that cheating, gambling or anything else not okay with a spouse that is what is wrong with 'cheating' IMO.

 

The lie prevents a couple from being close.

 

Now, if you wife is ok with you going out on your own.....and understands the risks of you playing alone...

 

Would you really want your wife to spend your life savings without talking to you? Why not? She wants the thrill

 

Are you willing to risk her LIFE to play? How about a lifetime of herpes?

 

I hope not. At least not without her permission anymore than you want her to go gamble your savings away without your permission.

 

While there are few STD's they DO still exist.

 

Think it over and see how you could proceed that keeps you both safe and happy for life.

[EvilMJ 65]

I started off with a really nasty response but then I decided not to be so harsh.

 

You raised my hackles by 'trying to enlighten the closed minded'. I would say we are a very open minded bunch. But we don't support cheating in any manner. When we swing it is for the the enjoyement of both partners as a couple.Cheating is having sex with another person without the knowledge of your spouce.

 

Honestly it is up to you, you can hurt the woman you proclaim to love by following your own selfish agenda, or you can treat her with love and respect. Sorry but you are not going to find to many people to support you in this one. - Married men or women playing with out the knowledge of their spouces are cheaters regardless of what ever feeble arguements or circumstances they put forward.

[MoonLightKiss 28]

I guess my "mission", if you will, is to enlighten some of the closed minds.

 

Well, like EvilMJ this statement raised my blood pressure. Like her as well I will try not to be so harsh addressing this. Maybe you see it as closed minds. I respectfully disagree. What I have noticed above all in this forum is the ability for others to be honest. Those that I respect here do not hold back their honest opinions. They call a cat a cat, a dog a dog, and a cheater a cheater. Nor do they people please and change their answers when someone disagrees. Anyone on here worth their salt sticks to their guns and opinions, and they have a strong sense of right, wrong, and negotiable. Not everyone agrees, but most here agree to disagree with respect to everyone. So, just because its not the answer you believe, doesn't make those here closeminded.

 

Before automatically assuming that a person such as myself is a letcherous jerk, let me ask you to identify cheating. Is it the act of having a different partner? If so, that would identify every active swinger, correct?? What if that Married guy had "permission"? Wouldn't he be the same as the male in a swinging couple? The fact that the wife isn't playing, really isn't germain, so long as he is advertised as a "single" and has permission.

 

Cheating is 50% lies and 50% lack of permission. No exceptions for me. If you are lying and do not have permission, its cheating. If you have honesty but not permission, its cheating. If you have permission, but you lie about it to your SO its cheating. Cheating=wrong to most here. Sorry, I know this isn't what you wanted to hear, but most of us here are here to help and you can't help anyone with a lie.

 

But the guy whos wife, who refuses to play is still looked at as a leper in the community. He is the worst kind of a "cheater".

 

I don't think there is one kind of cheater that is worse than another. I do not believe in discrimination. I dislike all cheaters, regardless of reasons, equally.

 

HOWEVER, I will state this. If you are in a marraige where lack of sex is an issue, I do understand why you would consider an alternative. Doesn't make it right in my book, but I do understand it. My opinion on being in a sexless marraige is to fix it. Many ways to do it. Talk to your SO and tell her this is a problem for you. That would be my advice on how to start. However, in no way am I condoning lying to her about it. Its the lies that make it wrong.

 

 

You couples that indulge, are truly fortunate. Able to ward off jealousy, and be confident enough in your relationship that you can allow each other to enjoy the company of another "lover". Its not all about the sex, IMO.

 

On this we agree. We are truly fortunate to not be held back by petty destructive emotions like jealousy. I do wish you the best, and plead with you to be honest with your SO. It truly would be best IMHO.

[rpu3 630]

This isn't posted as a whine-fest. Its more of a plea to ask you to look further than whats directly infront of you. Its to ask you to realize that even married men want the very same things that YOU did, when you came here.

 

Surrender I surrender, but flame if you must..

 

Wow, you must be friends with someone we considered meeting for a MFM. We had corresponded with him a few times, and had a few red flags thrown out, and he just admitted yesterday in an email he was in a committed relationship (although his Yahoo! profile says married with children).

 

For some reason - we were given the same plea in that email - to consider HIS position and what he'd like. This is really starting to piss me off. Why do we need to consider your position? I've already considered it - you are cheating or are considering cheating.

 

Why don't you, and those like you, consider our position (speaking only for myself and my husband): We are not interested in engaging in activities with a married man who does not have verifiable permission. We are not going to engage in any form of deception - and certainly aren't going to help you do it. We are not going to intentionally or unintentionally hurt another person (the wife) if we can help it.

 

Considering we do this with full honesty and disclosure with each other, we are not going to engage in any activity with someone who is not playing by the same rules. I do not need to consider your position any further because you are not in the same position as us. We are not cheating - we are both there, with full consent of the other, and hurt no one. You, and your type, on the other hand, are proceeding with deception as your calling card. Trying to define us as cheaters along with you is just offensive.

 

As to your plea for our realization of your position - no, thanks. Perhaps I am being a bit pissy, but in this week alone, we have found that three men that we had been corresponding with, were married. And I've had it up to here with being asked to please consider their positions. The only good thing is that we are finding this out before it goes any further than email, thanks to the sage advice of those on this board.

[fun4Ds 1,098]

I can't help but think that you are wanting what you can't have and I'm sure that sucks. I went through that myself for a long time it sucked for me as well. Knowing what the lifestyle is about. A loving relationship with true honesty and an understanding with your partner that can't be found in the vanilla world. When I found the lifestyle (or maybe it found me) it wasn't just the sex that I was missing or lacking and wanting more of. It was the whole lifestyle.

 

I mean if I am with the love of my life and I have these feelings, but I kept them hidden deep in myself, it is not very fair or honest to the person that I'm married to (is it?) to not know who I am. Or how I feel.

 

You seem in your post to try to find a way to validate cheating, because you are not getting the sex you want. And your using your wife's religion as an excuse

 

Plain and simple, if you want to play at the fun house and have that mfm with us, we would have to talk with your WIFE first. We would want to know her, know her feelings, would it hurt her? Would it destroy your marriage for her? Would she feel jealous? Would she be letting you fulfill your sexual desires because she loves you? And would continue to love you, even though her religious convictions prevent her from joining in? And we certainly would want to talk to her after the fun.

 

Seriously, that is our perspective of things as a swinging couple. We can't see you as a married single.

[ANGEDKY(mr) 100]

I have written 3 longass essay answers here and deleted everyone of them. For the time being I will keep it short

 

Driven2Please said:

He wants to feel the same exhilaration that he felt when he first met his wife. We wants to replay those same nervous stomach incidents of the exploration of a new partner, but TRULY prefer to do that with his wife again.

 

If you can't do this with your wife, in the privacy of your own bedroom using her fantasies, new techniques, introducing (new?)toys, role playing, variations on old themes, romance turned kinky, whatever. Then I suggest the nature of your problem is communication. Fix that (for starters) and the butterflies will return!

[JnCC 24]

Driven2please said:

But the guy whose wife, who refuses to play is still looked at as a leper in the community.

 

Yeah...that's pretty much true here. Couples who openly permit their partners to have sex with other people are already operating "very close to the edge," so to speak. Hence, they don't tolerate infidelity, or any behavior which smacks of infidelity (emotional or otherwise), very well.

 

You also lose points among people who have been in stale, unsatisfying, or abusive marriages and were finally forced to leave them. Which is to say, most of us. Like many others in here, I have been where you are now. I paid dearly, both financially and emotionally, for the happiness I now enjoy as a single person. Fixing a marriage is tough, leaving one even tougher. But ultimately, I think society as a whole has more respect for somebody who does that, than for somebody who wallows in self-pity for the "sacrifices" they've made to stay in a bad marriage.

 

I'm just curious as to why in your profile you list yourself as a "happily married guy?" You sure don't sound very happy to me...

[intuition897 2,179]

Driven2please said:

I guess my "mission", if you will, is to enlighten some of the closed minds.

 

Time to "throw another troll on the barbie?"

 

What makes you think, my dear, that many of us haven't been precisely where you are? The difference is that there was a realization that just because we wanted something, didn't mean we could just take it. It's like a kid whining that he wants the toy, wants the toy, wants the toy. Mom says "Absolutely not!" So the kids steals it. And you're asking us to "open our minds" to the possibility that maybe the kid had his reasons. Yeah. She said no. He took it anyway. You haven't cheated yet, but you do wrong by your wife for even considering it. It's in your heart, and that's where the wrongness of it lies. Not in whether or not you've put your penis is someone else's orifice.

 

You know, I have no doubt that you're nice enough guy, a real charmer. And if that helps you sleep better at night, then goodie for you. But I've noticed that every cheating wanna-be-single married person who comes here pleading their case mentions this fact at least once in their story. Who are they trying to convince? Politeness and niceness and ability to make good conversation...maybe helping little old ladies across the street...doesn't make up for the fact that I don't like people who - whatever their excuse may be!! - sell cheaply that which someone holds dear, so that they can get something they simply want. Not NEED. WANT.

 

And then they try to convince themselves AND everyone who would listen (and we swingers should understand, because, by their definition of the word, we are all cheaters too, no?) that we are unfairly judgmental because we refuse to condone the behaviour. This pisses me off. Your post is an exercise in self-validation, and you're looking for others to make you feel better about yourself. You will deny this now, but I dare you to come back a year from now, after you've torn your wife's heart out when she's found out that you deceived her, and deny it.

 

You won't like my post very much, I'm sure. I truly am sorry that you feel the way you do. As a rule, I don't dislike the person; I just dislike what they do. And when someone does wrong, acknowledges it, and does whatever is necessary to make things right, it's easy to do this. The problem arises when a person allows the problem to become a part of who they are.