Shunning of male bisexuality

[jcbicouple 24]

We just answered a thread that referred to swing clubs and how male bisexuality is shunned. Curious now as to what the real reason for this is? Why is it acceptable for females to be bisexual but not males?

 

We already know that society doesn't accept it, but they don't accept "swinging" either, so that's not the answer we're looking for. If it was just society, then no one would be swinging at all. We know some people don't like the f/f stuff either, so why are people more adamant about the m/m, and accepting of the f/f, even though from reading this board there are a lot of people that don't want to watch the females do their thing either.

 

Gut feeling is that it's the fear of people at work or "buddies" finding out (suppose this is the same thing as "society"). We do understand that because we have careers that would not allow for this behavior (swinging)...but why is bisexuality scarier than getting caught swinging? At work, last week actually, one of the guys said something about a couple that "swings" and it got real ugly for a few minutes. The men in the room were very appalled...so why is it different? Swinging, in general, is certainly not socially safer.

[couple2002 16]

I don't have any great advice for you unfortunately. Why 2 women is generally considered sexy and not 2 men together I don't understand. In my opinion if hubby was willing to be with another man I know I would absolutely enjoy watching him and be incredibly turned on. He knows how I feel about this, but he firmly reminds me that he won't swing that way; and I won't push the envelope on the issue. Oh well to each his own, but I do believe there's a very big double standard in the bi arena.

[Alura 2,774]

Wow! I have no experience in this so certainly can't offer y'all much wisdom. My guess would be that bi men aren't as welcome simply because there is much less interest in male bisexuality among swingers. Why this is, I haven't a clue, but one seldom sees an ad seeking bi men while it is quite common to see one searching for bi women.

 

It has been said on this board that many women get into swinging for the opportunity to play with other women. I think few men get into it for the opportunity to play with other men.

 

Consider soft-swinging in which the only intermarital sex is performed by the women. It's quite common. I've never heard of a couple interested in soft-swing in which only the men play outside the couples.

[b_and_sc 16]

I dont' get it either....in our relationship, she's a little curious, but he is bi...very difficult to find a bi male....

[RnLinohio 17]

In our relationship I am bi and he is straight, but at a local club we attend they say that no men are to be together there. I was confused by this and asked if men were not allowed to be together did that mean women were not allowed to be together. The owner told me no, women could be together but men having sex with each other was not swinging it was just gay. I never had the chance to ask her what she meant by that, and to this day it still confuses me.

[mrbandsatl 18]

Last time we checked, sex between two women was just as homosexual an activity as sex between two men. The double standards that exist in the world never cease to amaze us.

 

We are led to believe that those in this lifestyle set the bar for open-mindedness -- after 10 years, we say, "not so much."

[darling 17]

The local clubs we attend say that male on male sex is not allowed for several reasons. One is they think while watching two women is a turn on, many would find watching two men a turn off and they wouldn't want to attend a club that allows it. Then they state that they would be afraid the club would become a gay hangout and they would take over the club.

 

This is just what I've heard when the question is asked.

 

I personally think it's because of homophobia. Two women aren't thought to be homophobic.

[yawanna 17]

but men having sex with each other was not swinging it was just gay.

 

This is the thinking exactly. Women with women isn't lesbian though. Far be it for ME to create or perpetuate a 'double standard' yet I believe this is one applied to the men in these activities.

 

As has been mentioned in other posts and threads, male on male activity is far more prevalent than is spoken of... kindof an underground component to swinging.

 

It has to be underground for the protection of people's reputations.... we have seen a couple who stated once that bi males were acceptable to them, and then watched as swinger couples made comments such as the husband was only with her til he found his male soulmate. And this was on a bi positive (male and female) swinger site.

 

Swinging crosses a funny line in that sex is personal, intimate and private and what goes on behind closed doors stays there...yet.... we talk about it on sites such as this to better understand it.

 

And some sexuality (bi men) most don't seem to accept.

[Chicup 41]

I'm straight.

 

She is bi.

 

She thinks 2 men together is disgusting.

 

I think its pretty nasty too. This isn't being judgmental, I don't care what you do but I really don't want to see it. Its not homophobia, I am not afraid of gays or my sexuality, I just find male-male sex very unappealing. Sort of like watching the surgery channel before sex. Its not a good thing.

 

All of our swing partners to date have felt the same way (and no we didn't screen for it ahead of time).

 

I think you just have to accept that most people don't find two men together as an attractive thing, and they really don't want to see it. Now I know there are a lot of people who don't feel that way but it is apparently not enough of a % to sustain most swingers clubs.

 

You might feel this isn't fair, and its not, but its also not fair that I'm getting older, balding, and not nearly as attractive as I was 7 years ago. This is just something you have to accept and work around it.

 

Sex isn’t about fairness, but attraction. Its not fair that some men can walk into a bar and have women falling over them and others (like myself hehe) have to work for it. Its not fair that some women have a hard time keeping excess weight off, while others seem to do it effortlessly. Its also not fair that so many people don’t find two men involved in sex attractive, but that’s the way it is. If we went to a club where there was a lot of guy-guy sex going on, we would not feel comfortable and would not return. We wouldn’t ask the club to change, but would realize the club was not something we were interested in.

[Elusive BiFem 70]

Originally posted by jcbicouple

We just answered a thread that referred to swing clubs and how male bisexuality is shunned. Curious now as to what the real reason for this is? Why is it acceptable for females to be bisexual but not males?

 

We already know that society doesn't accept it, but they don't accept "swinging" either, so that's not the answer we're looking for. If it was just society, then no one would be swinging at all. We know some people don't like the f/f stuff either, so why are people more adamant about the m/m, and accepting of the f/f, even though from reading this board there are a lot of people that don't want to watch the females do their thing either.

 

Gut feeling is that it's the fear of people at work or "buddies" finding out (suppose this is the same thing as "society"). We do understand that because we have careers that would not allow for this behavior (swinging)...but why is bisexuality scarier than getting caught swinging? At work, last week actually, one of the guys said something about a couple that "swings" and it got real ugly for a few minutes. The men in the room were very appalled...so why is it different? Swinging, in general, is certainly not socially safer.

 

Your original question was why it is acceptable for females to be bisexual in clubs, but not males. I can't address that specifically as I have never been to a club. I suspect, tho', that it is exactly as you stated...society does not accept male bisexual behavior and therefore, since clubs are "society," they don't, either.

 

My theory is that female bisexuality is more readily accepted because of the differences in the way boys and girls are conditioned from the moment they can walk and talk. Little girls are actually encouraged to hug, kiss, cry...as we grow a bit older, we spend the night with each other, sleep in the same beds, share clothes...and throughout our lives, we continue to hug hello and hug good-bye. Think about it...most think nothing of it when they might see two women strolling through the mall with their arms linked...talking with each other. they might be mother-daughter, sister-sister, friend-friend. Few of us give it a moments thought other than to smile and think, "They look like they are enjoying each others company!" We share emotional things with each other that we don't, and sometimes can't, share with men. We cry because our friend is sad, we cry because our friend is happy. We cry at movies - happy or sad. Makes no difference. We discuss bra sizes...and fanny sizes. We shop for lingerie together. So many things...in other words, for all of our years, we form close physical and emotional bonds with other females. Later, some of us can participate in certain bisexual behaviors quite easily since it is really a short distance to travel.

 

Males, on the other hand, are not encouraged as little girls are. Big boys don't cry. Big boys don't hug, and they certainly don't kiss on the cheek! Little boys, when they spend the night, sleep in bunk beds, twin beds, or in sleeping bags on the floor. And they certainly don't walk arm and arm through the mall or shop for underwear together. Heaven forbid! Most men don't talk and discuss on anything more than a superficial basis, and they certainly don't sit around discussing feelings! That is all tied into their macho images...the images they have of themselves and others that began at birth...when Dad came home with the football crib toys. Strong, macho, tough, invincible. An image that most feel compelled to live up to. And for men, it is a really long stretch to go from that type of image to one of shared sexuality, and in doing so, at best, they are often perceived by others, and themselves, too, as being weak. That is an image that most men want to avoid, and as a result, I believe many deny their own feelings.

 

Now back to clubs...if a "strong and macho" man goes into a club and witnesses two men involved in sexual behavior, it is an assault to his sense of himself as a man...or at least the sense of himself that he has formulated with great assistance from society. Unable to handle this assault, he walks out. Club owners are in the business to make money, and cater to the desires of the majority. Leading us back to the fact that so many men talk about what a great turn-on it is to watch two women - these same women that don't have to stretch far to display bi behavior. Women are the draw...and the dollars.

 

Actually, I have a few more thoughts on this, but it is late and I am really, really tired and not too good at thinking just now. But those are tonight's thoughts. Make any sense at all?

[EternallySingle 32]

I have several gay and lesbian friends and relatives who like to "shock" me by taking me to gay bars and tea houses. Usually I'm the only straight man at the tea houses, but I often see couples at gay bars looking for men who are bi to join them at home. Once I was approached and when I said I was straight they said it didn't matter because she really wanted two guys. Still didn't go, but thats another story.

[yawanna 17]

From a straight female point of view... I've often had a very difficult time fending off the gropey women. The few times that I've gotten up the chutzpah to say to the woman groping me "I'm not bi"... she's responded with "neither am I'

 

 

Most other times.... the women are very much into playing with another woman....when their male partners are there. Is this a form of foreplay? And if I enjoy watching men together, how come I don't get that option, too?

 

It has been assumed that as I am in a swinger club or event, I must be bi. I'm not. I don't MIND women or their sensuality...I just don't want to play with them near as much as I want the men Do the women 'pretend' for the foreplay benefit to their male partners? And are there some men that 'pretend' for the benefit of their female partners?

 

I would really like to know what this 'bi woman' draw is to swinging.

 

Real or manufactured or staged or...... ?

[yawanna 17]

Quote

I have several gay and lesbian friends and relatives who like to "shock" me by taking me to gay bars and tea houses.

 

I lived in our gay ghetto for a year or so.. what better place for a single hetero female to be? Cheaper rents...always a busy main street...I had a gaggle of gay friends to party with.... life was good

 

I took my husband there last summer.. he's never seen that lifestyle... we ended up (after the tour) at the larger, harder cruise bar. A few men followed me from the washroom and were chatting me up...as I got back to my husband,...they quickly forgot about me and were shoving me out of the way to say 'HI!!!!' to him. He was kind and friendly.. as is his way...and had NO idea what was really going on I clued him in after we left...alone.

 

It's a bar notorious for the straight married guys hanging around til their commuter train

[Kentucky 15]

I believe the media has greatly contributed to the standard that female bisexuality is acceptable but male bisexuality is not. Women have been bombarded over the years by TV ads and such that tell them what is considered sexy, and most of the time it has been the image of a woman. Considering that they have seen this since childhood, it is understandable why many more women than men go both ways. However, I think that this is beginning to change and that a generation from now, male bisexuality will be much more widely accepted. For the record, I'm a straight male.

[BradAndJanet 70]

Originally posted by Elusive BiFem

...Make any sense at all?

Quite a bit, in fact. I think you've given the best answer I can remember.

 

It is sad to me that men are not 'allowed' to form emotional bonds with other men. I've always been jealous of the depth of friendship women have for each other and I think that's why I have mostly women friends, including the one I married.

[Chicup 41]

EBF did you ever think that maybe the reason men act like men and women like women is part of their genetics as well as their upbringing?

 

Being gay isn't a choice in my book or due to how you were brought up, you just are. My wife never thought of herself as bi BUT she always has always been turned on by 2 women together. I have NEVER been turned on by watching 2 men. Not even a little. Not even in the deepest darkest corners of my mind. I don't find men attractive, even those I know are 'pretty' and I have no interest in the least of seeing male-male sex. This isn't because my daddy bought me footballs and hand guns, and my wife got dollys.

 

Try looking at how boys and girls play. Even at ages where there isn't any societal pressure, boys and girls think and play differently. We are different to our core, and women are just generally more likely to be bi or at least, bi friendly, then men.

[imsnowman 34]

Although this idea does not address all of the responses physical danger may also be a part of some folks aversion. I know there are folks here who don't "believe" in AIDS but, for those who do, CDC statistics show that bi-men tend to have a higher incidence of AIDS than "straight" men. I know that it affects our decisions vis-a-vis male bisexuality.

[Alura 2,774]

Originally posted by Elusive BiFem

Make any sense at all?

 

It sure does, EBF.

 

We're asked to understand gay sex and we try to but we also wonder why we, as men, can't say, "We're straight. We were born that way. We don't know why." Instead, we're often accused of being "Homophobic."

 

I have no idea what constitutes an attractive male. Mrs. Alura and I agree that an attractive wait-person deserves an addition to the tip based on "cuteness quotient." She figures the tip when we have a waiter; I work it out when we have a waitress. It works for us.

[Alura 2,774]

Originally posted by imsnowman

Although this idea does not address all of the responses physical danger may also be a part of some folks aversion. I know there are folks here who don't "believe" in AIDS but, for those who do, CDC statistics show that bi-men tend to have a higher incidence of AIDS than "straight" men. I know that it affects our decisions vis-a-vis male bisexuality.

 

Ditto. It affects our decision on several lifestyle questions.

[mrbandsatl 18]

CDC statistics show that bi-men tend to have a higher incidence of AIDS than "straight" men. I know that it affects our decisions vis-a-vis male bisexuality.

 

We are both straight but have had this discussion with a number of people in the past and this argument is always brought up but have never been presented with any statistical evidence to prove it. I have scoured the CDC site, and talked with a client of ours who works at the CDC and neither produced any foundation for the argument.

 

We DO believe in AIDS -- had two friends die terrible deaths from the disease... we are just careful about propagating erroneous information that may be taken as fact.

 

And from a purely empirical standpoint, have yet to see anything to back up the argument that playing with single men, particularly bi-sexual men, inherently increase the risk of disease.

 

We have had several people offer to send post data from credible sources but all we have ever seen is anecdotal concepts from questionable sources.

 

We do not intend this to sound flip at all but if you have it, please share.

[leftcoastcouple 32]

Other than one being considered "sexy" and one being considered "gross" by much of society (present company excepted), I don't think there is a difference, per se.

 

But, since you brought up the topic, I find it a convenient segue--and to a large part, a contradiction--to bring up the results of the recent poll regarding what activities people partake in when they swing:  What are your preferences?

 

Honestly, I'm quite surprised that nearly a quarter of respondents so far have chosen "Full swap with all parties - MM, MF,FF,MFM," given that there's the other selection, "Full Swap with Bi-Female Activities Only," that excludes MM activity. And it's in the range of those choosing "Full swap all the way - no bi-sexual activity."

 

I'd never have guessed that the number of people open to MM contact would be that high. And if it's accurate, it seems contrary to what your experience has been regarding bi-male activity.

 

So which is accurate?

[shoreguy 15]

I know it's not the CDC, but Red Cross policy states that they will refuse blood from men who have had sex with other men, whether they consider themselves gay or bi. They don't give any statistical basis for their policy.

 

I think it mostly comes down to the idea that unprotected anal sex is second only to needle-sharing for success in transmitting the virus. I'm not an expert on the topic, and I'm certainly not a homophobe but I do believe that statement. Condoms are not 100% effective at anything.

[jcbicouple 24]

Quote

Originally posted by leftcoastcouple

 

Honestly, I'm quite surprised that nearly a quarter of respondents so far have chosen "Full swap with all parties - MM, MF, FF, MFM," given that there's the other selection, "Full Swap with Bi-Female Activities Only," that excludes MM activity. And it's in the range of those choosing "Full swap all the way - no bi-sexual activity."

 

I'd never have guessed that the number of people open to MM contact would be that high. And if it's accurate, it seems contrary to what your experience has been regarding bi-male activity.

 

So which is accurate?

 

We have found that we get contacted by A LOT of "straight" males (and couples) that say they are bi but can't publicize that. It seems to us that it's far more prevalent in the lifestyle than anyone cares to admit. It also seems that the poll supports this. It just seems sad that clubs and people actually "shun" the males and make them feel like they don't belong. We were wondering why and how this happens. Why is it supported? There are many females that find f/f sex disgusting and yet they tolerate it or look away and it appears as though they are expected to do that, and not make a scene.

 

Also, Believe it's a very false sense of social acceptance for female bisexuality. Yes, it's accepted in swing clubs and is predominant in porn, but as the female of a both bi couple, I can assure you my bisexuality would put my career at just as much at risk as our swinging would.

[windsor4fun2 130]

Originally posted by Chicup

EBF did you ever think that maybe the reason men act like men and women like women is part of their genetics as well as their upbringing?

 

Being gay isn't a choice in my book or due to how you were brought up, you just are. My wife never thought of herself as bi BUT she always has always been turned on by 2 women together. I have NEVER been turned on by watching 2 men. Not even a little. Not even in the deepest darkest corners of my mind. I don't find men attractive, even those I know are 'pretty' and I have no interest in the least of seeing male-male sex. This isn't because my daddy bought me footballs and hand guns, and my wife got dollies.

 

Try looking at how boys and girls play. Even at ages where there isn't any societal pressure, boys and girls think and play differently. We are different to our core, and women are just generally more likely to be bi or at least, bi friendly, then men.

 

I don't know enough about the "nature vs. nurture" issues as to why we are the way we are and what our sexual preferences are to comment on that end but I think our up bringing and societal pressures have a lot to do with our willingness to express them. And how we express them. I may be wrong but I believe there are more men with bi interests than will ever admit it because it is so negatively viewed, even in this lifestyle. On the other hand Bi women are viewed much more positively even in the vanilla world. It is not surprising there are more women willing to express those interests.

[Chicup 41]

Originally posted by windsor4fun2

I may be wrong but I believe there are more men with bi interests than will ever admit it because it is so negatively viewed, even in this lifestyle. On the other hand Bi women are viewed much more positively even in the vanilla world. It is not surprising there are more women willing to express those interests.

 

I think you are correct in that there are bi men who won't 'come out' because its not accepted by the swing community, and perhaps I came on a bit strong. I'm always a bit put off by the assumption that being gay is a choice and the reason I don't want to be bi is my own hang ups. This topic has come up a few times on this board so old feelings come up.

[Elusive BiFem 70]

Quote

Originally posted by Chicup

EBF did you ever think that maybe the reason men act like men and women like women is part of their genetics as well as their upbringing?

 

Yes, Chicup, I have thought about the genetic angle. Those studies are everywhere from the textbooks to the newspapers to Time Magazine. The studies contradicting those studies are there, too. Nonetheless, it was a fine point you were making until this statement...

 

Quote

We are different to our core, and women are just generally more likely to be bi or at least, bi friendly, then men.

 

With that comment, particularly the words "generally more likely," it seems to me you contradicted yourself on what you were saying. If in fact we are genetically programmed to act like men or women, why then, is it "just more likely" women are more likely to be bi than men? Even if you had said that women were "just more likely" to be lesbian...well, maybe I could have understood that better.

 

My personal belief is that there is a component of genetics involved along with the nature/nurture philosophy. I hold myself as an example. I never had a single iota of a thought of bisexuality until mid-life. Much like you...not a single thought or inclination. No inclination because there was no thought. However, when the opportunity presented itself with a very close friend...one with whom I had shared countless hours and enjoyed a close emotional relationship with...well, it was like I said...a very short step to sharing a physical relationship, too. Now? Am I sexually attracted to lots of other women? Absolutely not. But again, that is no different than any of us - straight or bi...none of us are attracted to everyone we see.

 

Also, we started off talking about bisexuality. You changed it to gay. Do you see a difference? I do.

 

Sorry...I don't buy what you are saying in the context of what I wrote and continue to believe bisexuality is more in lines with my nature/nurture theory.

 

The only time I mentioned footballs was in saying that the "indoctrination" of our sexuality began at birth when daddy came home with football crib toys. And daddy's tend to do that. Pink is for girls...blue is for boys.

 

I'm certain you have more to say...and you always present good arguments. I'd like to hear more. I've been known to change my mind when presented with facts. Reducing this discussion to the fact that daddy bought you a football and your wife got dollies...I know you can do better than that.

[Elusive BiFem 70]

Originally posted by jcbicouple

We have found that we get contacted by A LOT of "straight" males (and couples) that say they are bi but can't publicize that. It seems to us that it's far more prevalent in the lifestyle than anyone cares to admit. It also seems that the poll supports this. It just seems sad that clubs and people actually "shun" the males and make them feel like they don't belong. We were wondering why and how this happens. Why is it supported? There are many females that find f/f sex disgusting and yet they tolerate it or look away and it appears as though they are expected to do that, and not make a scene.

Also, Believe it's a very false sense of social acceptance for female bisexuality. Yes, it's accepted in swing clubs and is predominant in porn, but as the female of a both bi couple, I can assure you my bisexuality would put my career at just as much at risk as our swinging would.

 

jcb...you are answering some of your own questions...don't you think that clubs "shun" bi-males for the exact reasons named; i.e., you are contacted by A LOT of "straight" males...that can't publicize that. And as I mentioned before, if club owners believe that male bisexuality is not acceptable among the masses, they will cater to what is. Until people start acknowledging those sexual preferences, it won't change. I mean, come on...if you are a club owner and can take in $10,000 in a night by "shunning" bi-males...or you can allow bi-males and take in $1,000...what are you going to do. As with so many things...bottom line.

 

As for other females finding f/f sexuality disgusting...I don't know about that. Maybe I'll post a poll here to find out. However, I do totally agree about the social acceptance thing for both men and women. No argument from me in that quarter.

[jcbicouple 24]

Well, We don't know if people are born "gay" or "straight" but we certainly weren't born bisexual. Hadn't even considered it until about 6 years ago. Hope we haven't given the impression that we think everyone should try being bi! It's something we enjoy, but we certainly don't think everyone should, just because we do. We've just never been very good at understanding double standards, or being mean to someone based solely on their being different.

 

and it's not JUST the swing clubs, or straight community. We actually find that the gay community is often as closed minded about bisexuality as the straight community is...They think we're just whores. (which is true in our case...but what the h*ll. LMAO!)

 

Fortunately, We've also found a gay bar as well as a swing club that are open to bisexuality!!

[mrbandsatl 18]

shoreguy,

 

Thanks for the links - we have seen those stats before. The problem is that the information is for GAY men not bi-sexual men. But according to Masters and Johnson, The Hite Report and biresource.org, bi-sexual men and women have vastly different sexual behaviors from the gay population in general.

 

A few misc. thoughts...

• I sent the question to the CDC a number of months ago and received this as part of the reply:
  "Little is known about the population segment that identifies itself as bi-sexual as no formal studies have been conducted to date. ...the number of cases officially attributed to the bi-sexual lifestyle are insignificant..."
  
• What little research we have uncovered seems to point at specific activities that put you at risk such as anal intercourse, blood play, etc.
  
• Of the admittedly few men we have met who consider themselves bi-sexual, none engage in anal intercourse while all the gay men we have met do.
  

 

All just food for thought...

[Maus-Katz 16]

...and as such, they don't allow for the many gray areas. I consider myself bisexual, but as far as sexual contact with other men goes, I can take it or leave it. When I do take it, I'm also really only interested in oral.

 

I have always maintained that sexuality lies on a continuum - at one end are the strictly homosexual and at the other end are the strictly heterosexual. But the vast majority of people are somewhere in between, whether they acknowledge (or admit) it to themselves or not. Granted, the curve is most likely bimodal (like a two-humped camel) but I still think EVERYbody is somewhat bi-sexual, however little it may manifest itself.

 

Just my opinion.

[mrbandsatl 18]

Maus-Katz

 

Interesting theory... The more I think about it, the more I think you may be right... We try to put everything into neat little boxes but when it comes down to it, life is rarely, if ever, black and white.

[shoreguy 15]

Originally posted by bobandsandy

The problem is that the information is for GAY men not bi-sexual men.

 

Nowhere in the report does it say that. Of course, the only mention of bisexual men is in hetero transmission to females, but the report clearly refers to "male-to-male sexual contact". It does not say homosexual or gay anywhere.

 

Not trying to start a flame war here, but stating that the statistics are about gay men without providing a reference from the CDC is as bad as stating the statistics exist without providing a reference from the CDC. I'm specifically looking at tables 16 and 17. The tables are full of notes describing the groups in more detail, but none on that section to say it's about gay men. "Little is known about the population segment" does not necessarily have any affect on those stats or the real risks. I'm not sure it matters, and I'll take it to mean "male-to-male sexual contact" rather than "gay male sexual contact" until I see something from the CDC that says otherwise. I take it to mean they don't record that tangential statistic, in favor of the relevant act. Especially in light of potential bias healthcare and public health professionals might have against men who engage in homosexual sex.

 

I'm sure HIV doesn't discriminate against gay men vs bi men. The issue comes down to 1) do they engage in the high risk activities (anal sex) and 2) do they generally participate with the same community as gay men (still the largest group of HIV+ individuals in the US). Regarding 1 sure, I'll give you that one. I'd accept that to be true for a large portion of bi men. Actual breakdown? I couldn't begin to guess. For 2, good luck. There's likely a lot of it for some, very little for others. Those bi-men who don't practice anal sex with men and stay completely within the lifestyle are probably as safe as lifestylers in general.

 

Rereading this, I realize I might be coming off kind of harsh. I mean no disrespect to anyone, and I am not a homophobe. We have plenty of gay male friends outside the lifestyle. I just wouldn't fuck them. This isn't about what I think about people, this is about finding and interpreting some statistics. The question *was* about providing statistics about bi-men and AIDS risks. There apparently aren't good ones. However, bi-men fit quite easily into the group "those who participate in male-to-male sexual contact", and there are statistics on that. No, it doesn't correspond perfectly.

[mrbandsatl 18]

I don't disagree with much you are saying. But you can not ignore the behavioral differences between gay and bi lifestyles and the behaviors generally associated with each.

 

My original point may be lost in all this fun dialogue. There is an unfair, but widely held assumption in this lifestyle that men pose more risk than women -- bi-sexual or not.

 

Assuming there IS a higher risk -- and taking into consideration the other threads on this site dealing with unspoken MM activities among maried couples -- there is a false sense of safety in swinging limiting activity to straight, married couples.

 

By the way - I think sex between 2 guys is pretty disgusting to watch. But only cause guys in general are fairly unattractive -- which I am sure my wife and many other ladies on this board would disagree with

[jcbicouple 24]

Originally posted by shoreguy

I'm sure HIV doesn't discriminate against gay men vs bi men.

 

Would like to point out that a lot of males have anal sex with women as well, and there is a false sense of security there. The most logical reason that HIV would be transmitted easier though anal sex is that it's more likely that there will be some bleeding (even if it's only a very small amount). When we have anal sex (husband and wife) even though we are very slow and very gentle there is still almost always some bleeding. Highly doubt that aides discriminates at all, and how many men would be willing to have anal sex with a woman at a swing club or during a private meeting. Sexual orientation does not transmit aides....There is an increased risk with unprotected sex and certain sexual acts.

 

Should point out that anal is something we've only done with each other. The m/m sex has been limited to kissing, touching, and oral. Would have to believe that the risk is no higher there, than anything my wife is going to do with him.

[shoreguy 15]

Receptive anal sex is just plain more dangerous than any other sex, at least with respect to HIV risk. There was a time when we discussed making it off limits for her with other men. We never made it a rule. It has happened at least once. I'm the only one that gets unprotected access.

 

I don't think anyone is considering it more risky just because of orientation, just that the entire group of 'gay men + bisexual men' is more risky because of the higher incidence of anal sex within that group and the larger percentage of HIV+ individuals in it. Personally, we felt the risk was acceptable within the lifestyle, even considering the likelihood of bi men on the down low. Once again, I don't think lifestyle-oral-bi men are really much of a risk. Maybe a couple more chances in a million than anyone else we meet.

 

On the other hand, I'm not exactly convinced that there is a huge behavioral difference between gay and bisexual men in general. I'm certainly not well-acquainted with that group. But they aren't the direct concern in my life, only those in the lifestyle, who for the most part seem to not be into anal sex with other men.