Wife keeps breaking rules and doesn't know why ... I feel broken

[heartyhubby 6]

My wife says she loves me and never wanted to hurt me, but she keeps breaking the rules. We are 2 years into the LS and we've had good and bad experiences. Sometimes boundaries have been pushed, but only recently have our rules been truly broken. As we are newer, I have had many conversations with her about needing to feel good about whoever she's with. She is a super nice person and very pretty - she tends to say yes to people if she doesn't have the stop-gap of talking it out. That is one of two major reasons that rule is in place. The other is that I am aware of the possibility either of us could get REALLY HURT seeing the other doing something we hadn't discussed. Consent has always been a big deal because I've always been afraid of turning around to find a surprise - well that's what happened:

 

Our rules are:
 

- Soft swap

- Same room

- Always talk and get consent from partner before starting play.

 

The first time she broke the rules was eight months ago. We went to a house party. A younger lady approached me and asked me if she could go down on me. I pulled my wife aside and asked her if she wanted to play. She said she didn't want to play with the female then (my wife is bi) but I should go ahead and she might join. I said we've never really played separately, she said go ahead - she trusted me. The woman and I got down on the kitchen floor and played for ten minutes, and the woman asked me if we could go upstairs. I saw this as a separate act and pulled my wife aside to see if she wanted to play upstairs, and she said she would meet us upstairs. We go upstairs and start playing for maybe a minute when I realize my wife hasn't come up yet. 

 

I go back downstairs and she has her shirt off with the host couple. I say "are you coming upstairs? She says yes and I say come on." She asks me if I'd ever heard of deep-throating - I say of course, now c'mon! She says she'll be right there. I say, "Are you coming?" She says "Yes! Go on!" Later on I found out she had been actually going down on the host husband with the wife coaching ... no consent.

 

I go back upstairs and within 30 seconds I realize she's not coming, AGAIN. I go back downstairs to find my wife still with the host couple and say "What's going on?" She says she'll be right there, and I say "Well it's pretty much over now." We leave the party. 

 

Next day, she has trouble remembering everything, because she drank too much. In the following days I felt like she'd lied to me with no intention of joining me. She explains she really didn't want to hook up with that woman I was with - I tell her that's fine but she has to communicate that, and I tell her I don't want to play without her or vice versa. I ask her why she thought she had permission to play with the host couple. She says she trusted me to be in another room so she felt like she had permission. I tell her that's not okay, there was no consent, and it's also not okay that I went upstairs without her. I also say I am really glad I didn't see her doing this without my consent. She says she sees how she was wrong and that she will never do that again. I say the same.

 

Fast forward to this June. It's our first house party since the one above and we go over our rules beforehand. We meet up with a group of tight LS friends (5 couples that full swap) at one of their homes, and the drinks start going around. I try dancing with my wife at some point but she kind of rejects me because she's self conscious - she's worried we are somehow clinging to each other. It feels like a high school party where we aren't really part of the in-group so I kind of get it. We start playing a dice game where you're supposed to lick/suck/fuck XYZ body part based on the dice roll. This guy Jerry gets Lick/Clit and chooses my wife. My wife looks at me kind of struck and asks "Am I the only one getting licked?" I tell her, "That's up to you!" It's just a game so I didn't think anything of this! She didn't pull me aside so I figured we aren't playing yet.

 

10 seconds of licking later, she pulls her pants up and heads to the kitchen, some 20 feet away, for some water. Jerry follows her there and says "I'd like to that again sometime." She says "How about we do that again now" and he starts going down on her in the kitchen. One of the couples there, aware that we're newer and soft, grabs me and pushes me towards them and I finally notice what's going on.

 

My body goes cold as I watch her ride his face - moaning at the top of her lungs. It destroys me because she hasn't tried to include me in any way - I feel like I have no place here and she's effectively having sex outside of our marriage. I walk around the counter to kiss her because I don't know what else to do, but she's barely paying me any attention. I back away and wink at her to walk away to try to recompose myself. I don't want us to be "that couple" and I am unsure of what's happening yet because I'm totally panicking.

 

The room clears because everyone wants to go upstairs. I call over to them and say "Hey! C'mon! Let's go upstairs!" No response. I've never felt more alone. I say "Hey guys! C'MON!!" I am stuck watching her with him in the kitchen and then they finally notice me. 

We go upstairs and my wife immediately starts sucking on another guy up there, and then Jerry again. I try going down on Jerry's wife to get back into it but she's not super into it because she really wants to fuck, and we are soft. My wife notices I'm alone and kind of panicking, and tries to comfort me and help me get into it. I pull her aside and say we have to go. We split.

 

The shame I felt of seeing my wife with another man lit up every single insecurity I've ever felt in my whole life. AND my wife does NOT remember how or why she made the choice to play with Jerry. She can't say if she knew she had consent or not. The worst part is that she has not been able to discuss the fallout because she's so ashamed for hurting me so badly. 

It's been 60 days and she is just coming to terms with how much pain she's caused us. I think seeing her, at the second house party, is what really did me in. She says even though she doesn't remember what happened - she would never knowingly do anything to hurt me like this and must not have known she was breaking the rules. My therapist agrees, but also says she really struggles to be honest with herself, else she would be able to communicate and process her shame. I agree with that too.

I don't feel like I can trust her anymore. "I didn't know I was breaking the rules." may not be something I can forgive. The bigger issue is that she has so much trouble being honest with herself. She's so ashamed she literally smeared shit on herself the other day ... it broke my heart ... but I still can't stop thinking about how little she knew me; that she didn't understand how badly this could go if she broke the rules. 

Please tell me you've been there before. Please tell me you've overcome something your wife did that made you feel felt terribly hurt. Did it make you re-live so many previous abuses too? Did it make you feel like you weren't going to recover? Please help. Thank you to anyone who reads this.

 

[njbm 2,871]

I think couples can have rules and limits and a couple should adhere to them. But at house parties, people have sexual relations. Earlier in our career, I always wanted to swap with another couple first. Primarily because my wife was always in high demand and I thought if we didn’t couple swap, she would do the whole party while I ate coffee cake ( that actually happened).

 

What I learned over time was that house parties entail individuals hooking up with other individuals. When we last went to one, my wife picked who she wanted to play with and so did I. At the last couple of parties,  I upped my confidence level and I had a good time. Even had an encounter with a woman who I met before who I thought was out of my league. 
 

Back to your situation, you have to be able to let go and let your wife explore or swinging is not for you. Or maybe house parties are not for you and you should just meet with another couple or single privately. Maybe she broke your rules, but the rules seem restrictive for a house party situation. Your reaction seems disproportionate to the transgression. Go back to square one, play with a couple or a single, build trust and see where it goes. 

[heartyhubby 6]

I really thought we were building trust together. We've had ups and downs and communicating before and afterwards was where we'd succeeded. We went to a house party previously where we stepped aside and said, yea let's play with the whole room. I really think that's all I needed and I could have celebrated her joy like other times!

 

That's insightful about house parties because you're right, people aren't couple swapping, it's a bunch of individuals finding others. I guess I don't understand how a rule to check in with your partner before you start playing would be restrictive. What got you to truly let go? I thought a certain level of trust would get us started in the LS and then communication would get us to the kind of liberation you're talking about.

[cplnuswing 4,713]

3 hours ago, heartyhubby said:

We start playing a dice game where you're supposed to lick/suck/fuck XYZ body part based on the dice roll. This guy Jerry gets Lick/Clit and chooses my wife. My wife looks at me kind of struck and asks "Am I the only one getting licked?" I tell her, "That's up to you!" It's just a game so I didn't think anything of this! She didn't pull me aside so I figured we aren't playing yet.

 

10 seconds of licking later, she pulls her pants up and heads to the kitchen, some 20 feet away, for some water. Jerry follows her there and says "I'd like to that again sometime." She says "How about we do that again now" and he starts going down on her in the kitchen. One of the couples there, aware that we're newer and soft, grabs me and pushes me towards them and I finally notice what's going on.

 

My body goes cold as I watch her ride his face - moaning at the top of her lungs. It destroys me because she hasn't tried to include me in any way - I feel like I have no place here and she's effectively having sex outside of our marriage. I walk around the counter to kiss her because I don't know what else to do, but she's barely paying me any attention. I back away and wink at her to walk away to try to recompose myself. I don't want us to be "that couple" and I am unsure of what's happening yet because I'm totally panicking.

 

Rules and boundaries are an absolute necessity in swinging, but, having said that, it's possible to have too much of a good thing.

 

After reading your post twice, the general feeling I had is I'm not sure exactly what the rules are either.  Take this one above.  So basically, at a minimum you went along with, or even encouraged, her getting licked as part of the game, and that was perfectly ok.  Twenty feet away and a minute later, still in full view (not like she was hiding this from you), now it's a huge problem.  I don't mean to sound overly critical or harsh, but you are just going to have to get over that if you are going to swing.  You see this as two totally separate events, I think most people would see it as just one event and wouldn't feel the need for any reaffirming between the initial and then the continuation in the kitchen.  Sure, if they had started fucking, that's a problem since you are a soft couple.  If she started sucking his cock, maybe a problem although I would say needing permission for that is probably a little extreme too since he just went down on her.

 

In terms of involving you, what was she supposed to do?  Ask you to come over and stand beside them or something?  Again, how was what she did then any different than the first licking, did she ask you to come stand beside her then?  I don't think you are being fair to her and I don't think your expectations are completely reasonable.

 

@njbm makes an excellent point about house parties.  There were two mistakes there.  1) it was a house party, 2) all of the other couples were full swap.  I'm not at all saying you should change your rules to fit other people, but when yours are different than the group you choose to surround yourself with, then yes, you probably are going to feel left out.

 

I'll close with a story, probably my only swinging moment I'm not proud of.  We were at a hotel social we'd never been to before, didn't know hardly anyone there.  A single female sat down at the large table we were at with some others.  It wasn't long before she was making clear she was hot for both of us and wanted to go back to the room.  Mrs cplnuswing is straight, so wasn't interested.  After a little while longer, the single female wanted me to go to room, and I told her we always played together.  Night wears on and uncharacteristic for me, I'm drunk.  Like deep into a bottle of straight whiskey drunk.  Single woman is getting more and more aggressive with me, and finally as I'm walking by, pulls me down on her lap and starts dirty talking "fuck me right here, now!" and so on.  Little head quickly outranks the whiskey-addled big head.  I didn't fuck her, which would have gotten us kicked out anyways since off-premise party, but I was well on my way to trying to.  I had her dress around her waist sucking on her tits and my hand between her legs and she was thoroughly into it.  Seems like she had my cock out too and it may have gotten some sucking.  I can't even remember who or exactly how broke it up, I think it was another woman at the table that Mrs. cplnuswing had made friends with, and when one of them sort of turned around from their conversation and were shocked to see what was going on, it was her that came and I guess you could say retrieved me.  There wasn't a scene or anything, but I knew I had fucked up.  We were both smart enough to know that night wasn't the time to talk about it with me way drunk and her having had a few drinks too.  But, driving home the next morning, we did.  I made a few half-asssed attempts at excuses that sounded lame to even me and then just manned up and admitted I had fucked up and blew waaaaay past where I should have stopped with the single female.  I finished up my part of the conversation by saying "So, are we good now?" and Mrs. cplnuswing looked at me a with sort of a half smile and replied "We will be", meaning that she was still aggravated by what happened and that wasn't going to go away two seconds after my apology, but it wasn't going to be any big deal either...and I've never heard a word about it since then, and that was years ago.

 

So the moral of the story there is if you are going to swing, you have to be able to say "we will be".  Things are going to happen, you can't game plan this out to such an extent you are never going to find yourself in a situation that hasn't been fully discussed ahead of time.  And, sooner or later, someone will just flat mess up.  Alcohol, lust, whatever - play this game long enough and it's likely to happen.  If you can't do that, then swinging may not be a good idea.  If it is causing problem, real problems, not heat of the moment or in passing problems, then that's a huge red flag that you need to pay attention to.

[heartyhubby 6]

Thank you so much for your thorough response. I know that my past is being projected onto this moment in ways that I don't want. I've done so much work to try to put this into perspective and I can't help but ask, how could my wife not know me well enough to hurt me this way? I can see that the rules may seem like overkill, but they have been discussed a lot.

She knows that I am sensitive about who we have sex with and that may sound crazy, especially in this venue, but that's why we have such emphasis on communication. I've seen my wife get taken advantage of and I have remained sensitive about who she has sex with. I've hoped she would negotiate situations in ways that protect herself and us, and that we would grow to allow for much more exploration.

Your point though, is well taken. There was alcohol involved and it's a gray area with the dice game for sure. I think the rules certainly need some adjusting and I appreciate your and @njbm's advice immensely. I think there's more self-work to be done in order to build the trust we want to have as a couple. "We will be." is a profound understanding of what this has to be and I appreciate you sharing that. Thank you so much.

[Idahocouple6969 294]

IMO, you guys really need to work on your communication 1st, then how much alcohol is consumed. If these aren't addressed now then you have absolutely no business swinging. Some people like and need rules. But at no time should anyone EVER drink so much (for them) that they can't remember what happened. This is a huge red flag. If anyone has to drink that much to enjoy swinging there is a problem. 

[Jane1902 476]

Reading your post I don’t think you should be swinging. You are not describing an isolated incident, have your own insecurities, she can’t remember what happens. It’s more than the alcohol. 

[heartyhubby 6]

We are backing out of the LS to work on ourselves - my insecurities have proven to cause far too much fallout. I wish we'd discussed what happened WHEN we make a big mistake as newbies, not just rules. She has said she will not be drinking at these events if we ever return. 

 

The perspectives here have really helped me understand how gray these incidents have been, instead of the black and white way I've been thinking. Thank you for your help.

[cplnuswing 4,713]

I think that is probably the best for you both for now.  Swinging may be in your future, or may not, and that's ok, but now is the time to focus on just the two of you.

 

Glad you found the conversation here helpful, and wishing you all the best.

[MrMrsswinger 204]

You two should immediately stop involving yourselves in the lifestyle. Period. 

 

Your wife seems to be wanting to explore (without you) and you seem to have a jealous streak.  This is a recipe for disaster. Hopefully it isn't beyond repair, which it likely may be. You saying you cannot trust her is often leads to never ending regurgitation of the past, constant bickering and divorce.  

 

 

[GoldCoCouple 4,065]

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Next day, she has trouble remembering everything, because she drank too much.

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AND my wife does NOT remember how or why she made the choice to play with Jerry. She can't say if she knew she had consent or not. The worst part is that she has not been able to discuss the fallout because she's so ashamed for hurting me so badly. 

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She says even though she doesn't remember what happened - she would never knowingly do anything to hurt me like this and must not have known she was breaking the rules. My therapist agrees, but also says she really struggles to be honest with herself, else she would be able to communicate and process her shame. I agree with that too.

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I don't feel like I can trust her anymore. "I didn't know I was breaking the rules." may not be something I can forgive. The bigger issue is that she has so much trouble being honest with herself.

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I really thought we were building trust together.

As already noted, you should not be playing right now. Also as noted, maybe house parties are not for you. There is a much bigger issue here. To be successful in swinging, you must have an abundance of love, trust, and communication...not just some, but an abundance. Working on building trust isn't good enough. You have said that you don't trust her several times and that she 'doesn't remember' what happened and has a problem 'being honest with herself'. Does she have a problem remembering or is it that she lacks trust in herself and/or you? Either way, this indicates that you two aren't ready (yet). The good news is that it is a problem that is repairable and most definitely needs to be repaired even if you never swing again. The answer is love, trust and communication. The more you do any of the three generally increases ALL THREE. Jealousy usually is a byproduct of not having enough of all three. Stop swinging and work on improving your communication and until you feel that you are at complete peace with how things are in your relationship. Then and only then readdress the idea of swinging. Good luck and let us know how things are going for you two.

[couplers 4,640]

11 hours ago, heartyhubby said:

We are backing out of the LS to work on ourselves - my insecurities have proven to cause far too much fallout.

I'm left with the question as to why you started down this road in the first place.  The idea of swinging, ultimately, is to see your spouse have as much sexual pleasure as possible, and for you to do the same, in that order.  If that's not your goal and you don't enjoy getting there, then you need to find another religion.

[Idahocouple6969 294]

On 8/6/2020 at 5:46 PM, couplers said:

 The idea of swinging, ultimately, is to see your spouse have as much sexual pleasure as possible,

 If whom ever Mrs ID is playing with should not only be different than me but better than me. Otherwise what's the point?  She can get "just as good as" right here at home. 

[njbm 2,871]

My wife told me I’m the best!

[findinganswers 369]

Every time I see a post about rules it makes me wonder why the couple needs to put rules into the equation. 

I thought about rules I wanted to put into our play because swinging was my wife’s idea. I wasn’t comfortable at first knowing she wanted to have sex with our friend. 

I read some say no kissing, something I still don’t understand. I know there is a big difference between the friendly kiss I greet all our friends with and the deep passionate kiss that takes place in intimacy. 

Some say Soft play only. Is soft just manual play or oral play. To have a rule that only oral sex is allowed is the biggest mystery to me. I never never understood, even back when I was first having sex as a teen, why a girl was more willing to give a blow job instead of full sex. I always considered someone taking me in their mouth to completion the most intimate act. 

Asking permission. Isn’t the fact you are going to a swinger party implying that you are going to have sex? I can understand you want your partner to join you in the fun. 

You said your wife is bi, this is the biggest question. You are new to swinging but you already know she is bi. When and where did that happen? 

There are two things you can do. Stop putting yourself in a position that you can’t accept, swinging. Or you can go with the flow and enjoy. You are both looking for new experiences and the experience of new partners. Either you are ready for it or your not. 

[couplers 4,640]

12 hours ago, findinganswers said:

I never never understood, even back when I was first having sex as a teen, why a girl was more willing to give a blow job instead of full sex. I always considered someone taking me in their mouth to completion the most intimate act. 

What mystifies me is the "no anal" rule.  Really?  That one never crossed our collective mind.  How can having a dick in my bum and ejaculating in my rectum be more intimate than oral or vaginal?  It is like the most non-intimate, mechanical sex.  OK, well, maybe a foot job or under my armpit...

[couplers 4,640]

14 hours ago, njbm said:

My wife told me I’m the best!

She says that to all the boys.