Any good advice? Mixed signals from my wife

[nato2050 2]

We are a happily married couple in their early 40s living in France. Last year, around Easter 2019, I mentioned my wife the possibility to spice up our intimate life by going to a swingers club or meeting a swingers couple. At that time we were almost living like brother and sister (young kids, busy professional life, Netflix evenings, etc). The fact that I mentioned the possibility resulted in our first big marriage crisis. My wife honestly believed that I was announcing a divorce, and she completely freaked out. It did not help that her best friend was caught in a naughty divorce battle. To end this crisis, I promised to never talk about that again. And I kept my word...

 

Fast forward one year later. As I said, we have a happy life. My wife knows that I was not seeing any one else.

 

Suddenly, in the Summer, she started to hint that we can open our marriage. Her idea is that I can organise an erotic date (after Corona)... We have talked now about 20 evenings about fantasies of opening up, a spark, new excitement. There is the feeling that we be completely honest. Our intimate life has become much better, as if we are 10 years back.   

 

Ok... That's the background. Now comes my question to you experienced folks :-)

 

We have discussed the "next steps" very openly. She wanted that I make a profile. Which I did on a swingers dating site and I have informed her of all steps. But she indicated now that she doesn't want to be involved. The idea is that I choose the perfect match for her, and that we then do a blind date. She doesn't want to show any pictures and I am not allowed to give any detail about her.

 

Interested couples have contacted us. Some have asked details - which I cannot disclose. Some have asked photos - which I cannot provide. Some have suggested to whatsapp. I discussed that and my wife said: "I am not going to whatsapp those people. I am not going to waste my time. You have to arrange the date."  

 

One of my key points is that I never want to force or manipulate my wife into something she doesn't want. But there is a mixed signal here. Some part of her wants this. But another part strongly rejects the whole idea. 

 

Of course, this awful Coronavirus in some way gives us much more time. We are not going to restaurants at all - this makes it a bit theoretic, there is no urgency. But in your experienced opinion: what should I do... 

 

[lcmim 1,082]

My gut tells me that time is your ally in this because your wife is still wrapping her mind around the concept.

I would say let it gestate. You are young enough to let things progress slowly.

We waited until the complexities of raising our family were in our past. To everything there is a season.

 

In the meanwhile do your best to get well beyond the "brother/sister" relationship.

[GoldCoCouple 4,065]

Take your time, there's no rush here. It sounds like she has warmed to the idea, but doesn't want to be responsible if anything goes wrong. The bigger issue here is that you both need to be in this together. Work on improving your mutual trust and try to get her to open up more. You are a team and must work together as a team.

[Fundamental Law 2,885]

 

 

Early in adult life, there is exploration and experimentation. Young people are expected to "date" widely. 100 years ago, virginity might have expected. Contemporary cultural norms reflect the fact that a couple should probably "try out" all facets of married life, including sex--and especially sex with each other--prior to marriage. 

 

There is a wonderful romantic myth that we all eventually find "the one" true life partner. The wedding vows typically involve "love, honor, and 'forsake all others'". The problem, of course, is that people grow, they grow differently, and sometimes grow in different directions. Monogamy, which is used as a symbol or as a fence, is threatened. Boredom ensues, and the married couple starts to to yearn for some variety. What's interesting is that so often the couple is still very much in love.  The marriage may also make sense for economic or other reasons. The couple wants to sustain and even further mature the relationship. But sex--or more precisely lack of sex--is in the way. 

 

For women especially who have been told that after marriage, only marital sex is permissible, start having difficulty dealing with their sexual fantasies. They have been told it is "wrong" to have them, much less act on them. Men seem to have less embarrassment about the fantasies, which itself is problematic because it can make the woman feel somehow inadequate. Still, the idea of sex outside of marriage has been intrinsically thought to be so sinful that it gets not one but two mentions in The Ten Commandments: thou shalt not covet they neighbor's wife, and thou shalt not commit adultery. (Killing only gets one mention, which gives some sense of priority. ) So it is understandable that consideration of (much less a decision to)  violate 2/10 commandments causes all sorts of stress.

 

Of course, swinging is neither about committing adultery nor is it about coveting someone else's spouse. It is adult play. But it is hard for many--men and women--to wrap their heads around the idea that it is just adult play. And if something "goes wrong" , there is fear that there will be irremediable and horrible consequences. At the same the are looking forward to some play, some fun, some relief from the ordinary stresses of the ordinary world. "You make the arrangements, I will just show up" is another way of saying "If it doesn't work, you own the responsibility, and I will not burn in the fires of hell". 

 

We might  suggest finding two or three lifestyle couples who seem interesting enough that you might enjoy--and especially that your wife might enjoy--sharing drinks or dinner without any expectations beyond that initial social get together. We spend so much of our lives these days isolated that the idea of actually getting dressed a bit to go to a restaurant and enjoy someone else preparing a meal while having interesting conversation is going to be attractive. The nice thing about the lifestyle is that "no thank you" is respected and never taken as an affront. On the other hand, the mutual seduction is fun and interesting. 

 

What makes the lifestyle good for many who are in it is knowing that their spouse is quite attractive to others--but going home with you. 

 

 

[njbm 2,871]

I am with the others who say give it time. If you expect to meet people on a site, you will have to show at least a face picture of her. 
 

We always tell people that our first meeting is vanilla. There is no pressure that way. We meet a restaurant or bar midway. We’ve had people trick us over by saying they only live a mile away from the restaurant, so... We like to talk about it and set up a date that we all understand is for play. 

Go slow, don’t push. She may enjoy the lifestyle more than you. 

[njbm 2,871]

By vanilla ( lifestyle lingo), I mean that you agree to meet to get to know one another, but you do not expect to have sex on that first meeting. 
 

Sometimes one of us sees a red flag or is particularly turned off, but you can’t say it in front of the other couple. 
 

If you have a vanilla meeting, you can evaluate on the ride home. 

[Fundamental Law 2,885]

28 minutes ago, njbm said:

By vanilla ( lifestyle lingo), I mean that you agree to meet to get to know one another, but you do not expect to have sex on that first meeting. 
 

Sometimes one of us sees a red flag or is particularly turned off, but you can’t say it in front of the other couple. 
 

If you have a vanilla meeting, you can evaluate on the ride home. 

This is wise. 

 

Our experience is that when two couples meet for the first time, within 10 or 15 minutes it is clear whether it will be the last time. 

 

Even so, if no one is in a hurry to leave, there is still the question of how far all four are comfortable seeing things progress. 

 

Our experience mirrors that of njbm, about halfway through the ride home the question comes up whether we are interested in seeing the other couple again, and in what context. By the time we reach home, it's pretty clear whether there will be another meeting, and moreover where. The "where" matters because if in our home, the hot tub will be open, and no swimsuits are allowed in our hot tub. 

 

The other couple is surely having a similar conversation, do they want to see us again, and in what context. They are deciding as well. 

 

If we find ourselves interested in seeing them again, we'll take the initiative and write a note about what a great time we had at the restaurant, and we'd love to see them again at our home when schedules match. This puts the ball in their court. If they come back with a "sounds wonderful, what can we bring?" this often becomes a great opportunity to let the ladies communicate directly. 

[Wornsilver 219]

Great advice here. Another thought: perhaps your wife's distancing herself from this has a two-part interpretation. One, she is ok with the idea; and two, she wants to absolve herself from any guilt. All wrapped up in one continuing attitude.

 

[Sunday 119]

I'm not sure why everyone doesn't do the same thing?  Go to a swingers club! 

 

You don't HAVE to do anything in a club.  Do whatever you're comfortable with, even if it's just watching.  Go again and take baby-steps.. Get used to the culture and the protocols and gain experience and confidence.

 

I can't see it working any other way.

 

[nato2050 2]

Hello, I am the original poster.

 

First of all, I would like to sincerely thank all of you for sharing your views and advice! 

 

Just to give you some follow-up... I mentioned to my wife that I had submitted the question to this forum and then we had a good and happy discussion...

 

As to the advice given by Sunday, she fears a club is too sleazy... When she was a gorgeous 18y old (she is now a gorgeous 30 something) she went there with her boyfriend at a time and all she recalls is numerous older men fancying her... I respect her personal view on that...

 

Then, as to selecting a couple on an internet dating site for swingers, a lot of her reluctance is related to Covid. In fact since March (and for a variety of good reasons) we made the decision not to go to restaurants, bars, and basically put our social life on hold until there is a vaccine or real testing. 

 

So her objection is: "Why bother to email or whatsapp other couples if cannot meet"... That said, she is really interested in a first "real' date the moment it is possible again.

 

I think that this is a valid reason... I responded that we better postpone the email and whatsapp messages... until there is a real perspective to meet people. And then we discussed the idea of the restaurant, as was proposed by some posters above... She liked the idea...

 

To be continued without any doubt... But thanks very much for your valuable advice!

 

[GoldCoCouple 4,065]

That sounds like the plan most swingers are currently following (as well as most people in general). Please let us know what happens once the world starts returning to normal (please let it return to normal and not have this become the new normal...)