Playing with cheaters

[xxoticangel 99]

We would not consciously play with a cheating male. That isn't to say we haven't but we always ask and will not play if they say "Yes". Statistly at least a couple of the single men we have been with were married or in LTRs but we don't KNOW that. We have been with married men with wife's permission but thats a different situation.

 

As for single women? In a perfect world the same rules would apply but this world ain't perfect. Any attractive single woman, married or not, that expressed a desire would probably end up in our bed. When we attended a club there were always one or two women that we knew to be married that would be in attendence with their SO. One episode stands out when a married woman's husband was away on business. She was intoxicated and generally being an obnixious pain but ended up doing a gangband in one of the private rooms. I don't know how many guys/girls she was with that night but the door was open and there were always several people there watching and/or playing.

[Greg & Sheryl 368]

There is a difference because single women are hard to come by (from what I've heard ; ) and men are dogs... I'd like to say that in the future I will stick to my guns on that issue, but I realize that the chance certainly exists that an attractive female (single or married) would probably be welcome to play. The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak - I suppose.

 

We can relate to this double standard because we’ve been guilty of it, ourselves. Several months ago, based on the recommendation of a close friend, we tried to hook up with a bisexual female who was cheating on her husband. She is a woman about 50 years old with a very strong sex drive, but her husband has completely lost interest in sex. Thus, she always has to come up with a good cover story for her husband every time she wants to get away and get naughty.

 

While we do almost all of our swinging on Saturday nights, she is primarily available on weekday afternoons while her husband is at work, so it was a challenge for her to find the time to meet us. Out of the three meetings we eventually scheduled, once she was 30 minutes late, and twice she had to cancel at the last minute. Eventually we gave up on her. Part of the problem was that her husband is a former military cop. He had caught her cheating once before, so he was very suspicious of her. If he had ever caught her with us, who knows how he might have reacted?

 

Based on this experience, it’s unlikely that we will ever swing with a cheater again. A lot of swingers won’t play with cheaters for moral reasons, but for us, we simply want to avoid the inevitable drama that occurs when you get caught up in a situation like that.

[lauriern 16]

Maybe its as simple as supply and demand. Single women are so rare so that whether is truly single or, married and cheating, it's irrelevant. Where as cheating men are so common.

 

But seriously, as someone above pointed out, swinging is so complicated anyway that introducing an injured spouse into the picture is asking for trouble. What gets us is the number of married men who say they are swinging with their wife's permission because a) she has an illness and can't fuck anymore or b) his sex drive is just so damn strong she can't satisfy it, or c) she is just so open minded. But when you ask to speak to said spouse to confirm this arrangement they seem to disappear. On the other hand we know couples who play almost exclusively with cheating males because they feel they have more to lose if they get caught and are less likely to have an STD.

[ore_cpl4fun 15]

Ok, just our two cents here, but we’d never knowingly play with someone who was trying to get us to help him or her cheat. We agree with the general sentiment that swinging is a shared experience that involves trust and openness. Cheating, by definition, is the antithesis of open and trusting.

 

Now, with that said, if someone has cheated in the past, but they and their partner are now (in the present) in a seemingly healthy place and playing together, with each other’s consent and enthusiasm, who are we to make value judgments about their relationship? We’re not psychologists or marriage counselors, and frankly we avoid drama like the plague, lol. We’re here to have fun, and we’re far more likely to avoid someone who tried to tell us “dirty laundry” about another couple, than the couple in question.

 

But hey, this is just us our perspective. We’re also bright enough people to acknowledge that there are no absolutes, and our opinion isn’t “right,” it’s just our point of view.

 

Great Topic!

[invisibletouch 15]

Having been cheated on for 7 1/2 yrs, I can't bring myself to play with any man who is cheating. I never denied my husband sex, attention or affection-he just wanted in his own words "something different". He told me he had told this woman he was denied at home so she'd feel sorry for him! So when a person wants to cheat they will find a good excuse to tell the new partner to get what they want. Just my opinion coming from my own experiences.

 

So no, as much as some of the guys appeal to me-the 'oh man give me strength type guys', I can't justify possibly causing that kind of pain to someone else.

[JustAskJulie 2,595]

I find it interesting that while the majority says they won't play with cheaters at all... there is definately a larger proportion that will play with married cheating WOMEN than men.

[sweet_tna 680]

Gender doesn't matter to me here. I/we wouldn't play with anyone we knew or even suspected was cheating.

 

=)

[redgirlwithfrec 33]

Same here sweet. On SLS we have been contacted by at least 3 couples in the last year that it turned out they were a couple that was both married but not to each other. Im sorry but neither one of us agree with cheating for any reason. Thats why we swing so we can do it together. There is no hiding anything from each other and thats what we would expect from our playmates.

[Spoomonkey 421]

redgirlwithfrec said:

On SLS we have been contacted by at least 3 couples in the last year that it turned out they were a couple that was both married but not to each other.

 

We had this happen at the club once. The timing was awful since we assumed they were married and they slipped after we had all pretty much decided to go upstairs.

 

"His wife has no idea," the woman said. "And my husband would totally shit a brick."

 

This was while Mrs Spoo was in the ladies room and the husband was getting another drink.

 

Needless to say, I had to be very honest with our change of heart.

 

I think the difference between playing with cheating men and cheating women, while both something we would not do, is simply a matter of supply and demand. Attractive single women at our club are so rare that I think a lot of people would bend the rules to realize that fantasy - while single men as so plentiful that it is easier to stand fast.

 

Doesn't make it right - but I am sure that is the reason.

[Thrax 384]

Here's my take on this, from the single male side of things.

 

I try to avoid cheaters. It's a moral thing, but I also would like to avoid having a gun in my face, or being involved in some legal brouhaha.

 

My first potential cheating encounter occurred in 2002/2003 (I first dipped my toes into the lifestyle in 2000). I had played with single females and couples at a Pgh-area club (now-defunct) and I got a call at one point from the club owners that a woman was interested in meeting me. I called her and she told me that she had visited the club and played before, but she was interested in meeting single males at the club or elsewhere on a more regular basis. Her husband had an illness which prevented him from satisfying her sexually (so she said) and she decided to look outside of her marriage for sex, although she was devoted to him. I told her that I did not like the traditional cuckold (humiliation of the husband) deal, but if she would let me talk to him and confirm that he was sexually-incapacitated and approved of her looking outside of their bedroom for sex, then I'd be interested. She said that that was NOT possible, and if I didn't agree to see her then I wouldn't know what I was missing. (Well, actually, yes, I have an idea what I might be missing.) I was going to ask her to call me after she divorced her husband, but then I thought better of it.

 

A year or so after that, a woman IM'd me and we had a deliciously provocative conversation. It turned out she was married...with kids...and she was interested in exploring something without her husband knowing. Bye!

 

In the summer of 2006 I went to a house party sponsored by Couple A at the house of Couple B. I wasn't really interested in most of the women there except the female of Couple B. I did not play with either Couple A or B. A couple of weeks later I got a phone call from the male of Couple B. He said they were interested in a first-time encounter with a single male and they picked me. (Yay for me! I had enjoyed talking to both of them and his house was a swingers-party dream: playroom basement with sex-swing, large indoor pool, outside hot tub, big deck, and private, gigantic backyard.)

 

I told him things we had to discuss (condoms, no means no, etc.) and just after I had decided "YES" he mentioned, "Oh, she's married to someone else, but I'm not married. Is that a problem?" Yes, for me it was a problem. I told him if I can talk to her husband about this, to get his okay on it, or if her marital situation changes, then I'd be interested. He was very pleasant about my declining their invite.

 

About six months later the female of the couple called me and wanted to know if I had changed my mind about meeting with her and the guy-who-was-not-her hubby. I asked her if she was still married to her husband. "Yes." And I told her that unless he was okay with it, it was "no go." She (politely) signed off.

 

Just my experiences.

[Ave Satanas 20]

It's rather funny that I found this poll tonight because I'm scheduled for a foursome this weekend that had to be put off because the other guy involved is on the verge of breaking up with a girlfriend but has yet to do it.

 

Not as bad as a someone cheating in a marriage, but in any case you're asking for drama by playing with the unfaithful.

[amylev41 15]

shoreguy said:

Satisfy my curiosity: Is there a difference between how cheating married women are viewed versus cheating married men? Consider LTR equal to marriage if you please.

 

Absolutely NO to cheaters.

[VegasLee 1,486]

I am going to admit that I am personally very disappointed in the results of this poll.

 

318 people have responded as of this writing.

 

29.25% of the people approve of married women cheating and are willing to play with them. In contrast only 11.95% feel it is alright to play with a cheating man.

 

Personally, I don't feel it is alright to play with anyone that we know is cheating but my view means nothing. All are welcome to do what they feel is right for them.

 

Is it because there are so few single women in this Lifestyle that many feel it is alright to play with any women if she is willing even though she is cheating?

 

So much is preached here about truth and honesty in the lifestyle yet so many are willing to give that up for a shot at another women. We all stress the importance of our relationships yet a very large percentage of people are willing to play with cheating women. It appears that many don't practice what they preach.

 

Of all the threads and polls I have seen over the years here and elsewhere this one has me thinking less of the people in the lifestyle then any other information I have ever seen before.

 

I know many are going to say it is not their problem, they are not the ones cheating. Your right, you did not cheat. Kind of like robbing the bank, you did not rob it, you just drove the getaway car.

 

Don't get me wrong. I don't feel I am any better then anyone else that posts here or that I am holier then thou. I am pointing out there are some serious double standards being lived in this lifestyle by many though and it is not something I am personally comfortable with.

 

Not only am I not comfortable playing with cheaters of either sex I am not comfortable playing with people that feel it is alright to play with the cheaters. If they will do that what else will they do?

[amylev41 15]

Just my take , I feel its wrong for either male or female to use the lifestyle as a means to be unfaithful to their unknowing partners , If you feel the need to cheat , as like its you're only recourse ...you should just become single and be fair to your partner .

but just my opinion ...Amy

[good times 991]

I agree with you completely Lee, but I suspect that this poll is skewed a lot by the fact that their are many non-swingers that frequent this site.

[Spoomonkey 421]

I've posted elsewhere that I think it is an indication of the "supply and demand" thing. I agree with you - that doesn't justify it - but I think that may be the reason.

 

Not only that, there is quite a bit of "dislike" for single men that doesn't exist in equal measure for single women.

 

I think this skews people's values.

[Tia Vampire 167]

I voted that I would not play with a cheater. My mind tells me no, but my body tells me yes. I played with a cheater without knowing. I thought that he was just a single guy. The DJ's wife told me that the wife came there once to let the host know not to let hubby in because he was married and yes he has been banned to enter, but I have seen him twice since the incident.. That man knew how to make a woman feel good. Because of what I knew about him, I did not play with him after being asked by him. I really wanted to though. I wonder after these past nine monthe since we seen him last if we were out to a house party and he was there and we did not find another couple we were attracted to, I wonder if I would give in to my desires.

[Thrax 384]

I'm not the best at math, but I noticed that adding the poll percentages gives a result of over 122%. I already voted the fourth option, so I can't go back and experiment: can a person select more than one poll option? That would explain the 100+%.

 

I think GoodTime's suspicions about the data being skewed by non-swinging visitors' votes is valid. But, of course, polls on boards like this are like any Internet-based polls, they're done for fun or to start a discussion; they have no safeguards to assure any scientific validity.

 

We don't know who is voting or what their motives are. I suspect most of the active members of this Board tried to answer honestly, since it's an anonymous poll, but we don't know that for sure. And when we consider non-active members that vote in these polls, we're in a quandary. We don't know how much they know about the lifestyle and what they know about what might or might not be considered acceptable behavior by active members on this Board, or in the lifestyle as a whole. And are the active Board members' opinions typical of the majority of swingers? That might be true, but we don't know that for sure. And, are there significant numbers of poll respondents who just vote contrary to accepted behavior just for fun? Teh Intertubes is a dangerous place to run a poll.

 

Still, I agree with Vegas Lee, even if all the above has been considered, to me it is disconcerting that there appears to be a large amount of people who approve of cheating if it meets their sexual needs, regardless of how it might eventually play out. I'm usually a "hands-off" person when it comes to other people's choices, but cheating on a spouse/SO -- reneging on a commitment one has made -- makes me feel...icky.

 

There are risks to practicing the lifestyle. Most of those risks are related to physical health (i.e., STDs), but we all know that there are emotional and societal risks as well. IMO, cheaters magnify that risk. But since this lifestyle stuff is supposed to be a pleasureable hobby I recommend a section from the Hippocratic Oath (traditionally taken by physicians pertaining to the ethical practice of medicine): Διαιτήμασί τε χρήσομαι ἐπ' ὠφελείῃ καμνόντων κατὰ δύναμιν καὶ κρίσιν ἐμὴν, ἐπὶ δηλήσει δὲ καὶ ἀδικίῃ εἴρξειν.

 

Just in case your Greek is rusty, that translates to: I will prescribe regimens for the good of my patients according to my ability and my judgment and never do harm to anyone.

 

I think you all are creative enough to modify that statement to apply to swinging, the lifestyle, or whatever you want to call it. My view is let's have fun in a responsible way, similar to the medical admonition based on the Hippocratic Oath: "Primum non nocere" ("First, do no harm").

 

Have I always been responsible in my swinging? I'm sorry to say, no. I've made mistakes; I'm a work in progress. But personally, I don't want the problems of swinging with cheaters, either.

[good times 991]

Thrax said:

I'm not the best at math, but I noticed that adding the poll percentages gives a result of over 122%. I already voted the fourth option, so I can't go back and experiment: can a person select more than one poll option? That would explain the 100+%.

 

yes, it is a multiple choice poll.

[NumbskullsX2 24]

All ethics are situational.

[Thrax 384]

NumbskullsX2 said:

All ethics are situational.

 

Help me understand this. I was a business major. My brain hurt even before I got to any of the philosophy stuff.

 

If all ethics are situational, then there are married individuals (or people in "committed" relationships) who can disregard their commitments of sexual monogamy to their respective spouses/SOs, and they still can be considered as NOT being cheaters in the world of swinging?

 

Please explain.

 

Thanks.

[two4youinswva 3,068]

VegasLee said:

Is it because there are so few single women in this Lifestyle that many feel it is alright to play with any women if she is willing even though she is cheating?

 

Yes, this is exactly what I believe the issue is. It's all about supply and demand. If single women (especially single bi women) were plentiful, you would see close to the same standard that is applied to single men.

 

 

VegasLee said:

So much is preached here about truth and honesty in the lifestyle yet so many are willing to give that up for a shot at another women. We all stress the importance of our relationships yet a very large percentage of people are willing to play with cheating women. It appears that many don't practice what they preach.

 

There are about 400 replies to the poll so far.

 

Just taking a wild ass guess, there are maybe 100 folks that regularly post on here every day, giving opinions on such matters. I may be off a bit, but like I said, it's just a guess.

 

Almost all of those that have posted about truth/honesty, and playing with cheaters voice their opposition very strongly and in large quantities. Ever notice what happens to the folks that introduce themselves on the site as "married but looking for some side action"? They are put in their place almost immediately (Nothing wrong with this in my opinion. We don't care for cheaters either).

 

So, my thought is there are a lot of people lurking, or not posting on that particular subject, because they do not share our opinion on who is and who isn't fair game when playtime comes around, and don't want to deal with the hassle of defending the position on here.

[NumbskullsX2 24]

Thrax said:

If all ethics are situational, then there are married individuals (or people in "committed" relationships) who can disregard their commitments of sexual monogamy to their respective spouses/SOs, and they still can be considered as NOT being cheaters in the world of swinging?

 

No, it's still cheating, it doesn't matter why they do it. Couples who knowingly participate with cheaters are "co-conspirators" even if they feel they are justified in doing it.

 

In criminal law, "conspiracy" to commit a crime carries almost the same penalty as committing the crime itself. So does "possession of stolen property" I don't see why it should be any different for somebody who "possesses" a cheater or "conspires" with him (or her) to cheat. BUT.......if my wife suddenly lost all interest in having sex, or in me altogether, and another woman offered to take her place in the bedroom, I might take her up on it. She would probably do the same if I stopped courting her.

 

That's what I mean by "situational ethics"

[stu 25]

We put our stamp on 'Won't play with cheaters'. Yes, in a given situation, maybe we would.

[Bama0468 93]

We had a cheater pose as a single male (succesfuly I might add) and the result was horendous, His house of cards fell when his Wife found out and called mine, all I can say is what a mess, so its married, Commited, and all parties in the know only for us now

[RandyKris 15]

My initial response is also Wont play with cheaters...

 

I have read the responses to this poll and am surprised at the number of people that can make a distinction. You are either in a relationship with someone or not. If you are and they don't know what you are doing you are cheating, and that goes against everything I know and believe of swinging. I hope I'm not insulting anyone - don't mean to.

 

The short of it is....no cheaters

[n2ez 18]

RandyKris said:

My initial response is also Wont play with cheaters...

 

I have read the responses to this poll and am surprised at the number of people that can make a distinction. You are either in a relationship with someone or not. If you are and they don't know what you are doing you are cheating, and that goes against everything I know and believe of swinging. I hope I'm not insulting anyone - don't mean to.

 

The short of it is....no cheaters

 

Pleaseeeeeeeeee, you guys are trying to tell me that you would turn a cute little unicorn down if she was married and playing solo??? hmmmmm I guess married and having an affair applies only to men also? in the real world kids my guess is most married women playing solo would be more then welcome to most couples, but then again the double standard applies here as most married men might not be as accepted...guess I am lucky as the couple I play with want a married guy not some single bed hopper...hmmmmm go figure

[havefuninsun 122]

If only live were so simple that we could say, "I'm not happy. I choose to walk away."

 

Imagine this scenario. A woman, in her early late 30's/early 40's, who is the primary care giver of her ill live-in mother-in-law. She and her husband have decided that she should give up her nursing career to be the full-time care giver of his mother. They move mom in with them and their kids. She and her husband rarely have sex; he works all the time, which in turn, makes her feel guilty because she's not pulling her weight financially (which, we all know is bogus; she's taking care of her mother-in-law). So, her and her husband have a strained relationship, and are having trouble communicating through it. But both she and her husband feel that they have made the right decision regarding their family. She feels good being able to take care of her kids and her mother-in-law.

 

We can even make this scenario more simple ... imagine the everyday stay at home mom, the mom who is totally committed to raising her kids, and she and her husband put the needs of the kids in front of their own. Break up the family? They wouldn't dream of it.

 

(How many of us have BEEN in that situation? How many of us have stayed in marriage #1 for the kids' sake? Simply walk away? Ain't that simple).

 

She hungers for the touch of someone who desires her. She wants no strings; she doesn't want to be saved from her situation. She is committed to staying with her family and has never even thought of breaking it up. But she would love a lover who she could see occasionally, just for the passion that the rest of us here, understand.

 

Does this make her a bad person?

 

Does this make her a great unicorn?

 

Discretion is paramount. In my view, she'd be better off with a lifestyle couple who understands what she wants and needs. She's not wanting to replace any ONE in her relationship; she's looking to fulfill sexual desires.

 

My guess is that there are a lot of women like this in the lifestyle, either posing as singles or simply out with their story. Do I blame them? Not one bit. I can't imagine life without the wonderful sex life I have. I love my home sex life; I love my playtime. I love my husband for giving me all of that.

 

Life is too short. We'd have to think long and hard to have a relationship with someone like the above, as there are a lot of risks here (as Thrax said in one of his posts, he doesn't want a gun to his head). But would we begrudge her for wanting passion, not a chance. And I'm not going to judge couples who CHOOSE to play with her, either.

[Greg & Sheryl 368]

n2ez said:

Pleaseeeeeeeeee, you guys are trying to tell me that you would turn a cute little unicorn down if she was married and playing solo??? In the real world kids my guess is most married women playing solo would be more then welcome to most couples.

 

We've heard many people make this assertion, but only in a hypothetical context. Frankly, we've never seen a real-life example of this double standard, nor have we heard of it second-hand from people we know. We are not suggesting that it never happens, but it must be a rare event, especially when you consider how rare the unicorn is, whatever her marital status may be.

[Bama0468 93]

Well I was going to quote the same one Gregg and Sheryl did, and say the same thing, and here is another part. Those of us who say no we would not, mean we would not KNOWINGLY do it, it has happened to us as we were lied to. So what you have to figure is those LONELY people you all are referring to CAN get caught by the spouse and then its a nightmare for the LS couple.

 

We have had them lie and say it was ok with the spouse (when we were less experienced and more naive and believed everyone you met in a LS site was honorable, SORRY but is not so hate to burst anyone's Bubble!

 

How would you like the spouse calling your phone and saying WTF and drag you through their messy divorce, we were at least lucky and we don't know what he told her and we were left out of the mess.

 

Happened with a LS couple as well when she wanted me, but my wife did not want him, we had all hung out with groups and such, she approached and wanted to hook up I asked about her hubby, she said he was ok with it. We set up a time and place to meet.

 

We played at their place and after wards the phone rings and it is her hubby, I was getting ready to say hey when she waved her hand and shushed me ... it was awkward and I felt as though I cheated.

 

Those happened around the same time frame and now if someone says it is ok with their spouse, we want to talk to them first.