Covid layoff affecting the lifestyle

[nipring 20]

During this layoff we have not been playing or seeing people that we have played with regularly. As everyone else has done we've stayed home to keep ourselves and others from contracting the virus. Now that time has gone by and our friends have not had any symptoms not us, I the male would like to start playing again with those we know, my wife isn't comfortable and seems to have lost interest. Is anyone else going through this? What advice does anyone have  to get things going again? Thanks for your insights! 

[Fitlakecouple 451]

Same as above. I think playing with a well known couple (our go to couple) is low risk/ high reward.

[njbm 2,901]

We are not currently playing and do not expect to do so until we are vaccinated or there are treatments that are effective before the disease gets serious or the viral spread is so low that it is not a threat. 
 

We are over 60 and I have a pre-existing condition that would not help. 
 

I will admit we are ultra-conservative in our outlook. My fear is that other people are not cautious, often do not wear masks and may spread the virus while asymptomatic. 
 

I once played with a woman who I did not know was sick. I had an upper respiratory infection that I could not shake for 2-3 months and a few doctors’ visits. I lived. With Covid, if you make a mistake, you may not get a second chance. 
 

Role play with your wife, tie her up, put a wig on her, try a new position, get back out there in ‘21. 

[lcmim 1,086]

I don't have the time right now, but you are not alone. Thos hiatus is causing a lot of readjustments in couples, from what I have been hearing. We will be getting back tp it, but it will be different as the rounds of arties and get togethers has been broken. Those things feed on each other. In the meantime most of us, in our acquaintance are enjoying the benefits of married life.

[couplers 4,717]

Even before the plague started we limited ourselves to our poly family of three women and two men, and our boyfriend and his wife, who participates only orally (long story - see earlier posts).  This has been enough quantity and variety for us even before and will remain so for now.

[hunterdonNJcpl 1,421]

We stopped completely through the whole "lockdown" phase here and for a while it looked like swinging would be on hold indefinitely. But as the months got warmer and restrictions started to lift we started communicating with a single male friend who we've played with for years.  My wife has been very cautious during this pandemic so I was surprised when she wanted to see him.  The three of us agreed on a closed swinging situation - literally only us three - and to keep it so for the remainder of this pandemic.  We feel pretty good about it and even if the draconian lockdowns happen again this winter we will at least have the three of us.

 

What I'm trying to advise is shrink your circle, pick your partners, and take a pledge to not play outside the circle.  There is no reason that shouldn't suffice to get through another lockdown.

[njbm 2,901]

On 10/1/2020 at 9:49 AM, hunterdonNJcpl said:

we stopped completely through the whole "lockdown" phase here and for a while it looked like swinging would be on hold indefinitely. But as the months got warmer and restrictions started to lift we started communicating with a single male friend who we've played with for years.  My wife has been very cautious during this pandemic so I was surprised when she wanted to see him.  The three of us agreed on a closed swinging situation - literally only us three - and to keep it so for the remainder of this pandemic.  We feel pretty good about it and even if the draconian lockdowns happen again this winter we will at least have the three of us.

What I'm trying to advise is shrink your circle, pick your partners, and take a pledge to not play outside the circle.  There is no reason that shouldn't suffice to get through another lockdown.

 

Do you miss playing with another woman? Do you have bi play with the male? The playing as a threesome with a single male always struck me as inequitable for the husband. Maybe it’s just me, because it seems to be a popular option. Everyone should have fun as they enjoy it with consent. 

[hunterdonNJcpl 1,421]

On 10/1/2020 at 11:31 AM, njbm said:

Do you miss playing with another woman? Do you have bi play with the male? The playing as a threesome with a single male always struck me as inequitable for the husband.

 

Sharing my wife has always been the part of the LS that appeals to me most. It's how we got our start and has made for most of our private encounters.  As far as being bi... let's just say i am definitely not offended by a little friendly m2m contact ? 

[nipring 20]

The idea was that the couple is very cautious as well, we are probably more relaxed about being out then they are. She isn't ready to go back since our kids were back with us for a time and we have had a grandchild. I miss the play with the other couple, it was very open.

[EastInWest 1,524]

Locally, the situation is deteriorating and I'm afraid it's probably going to be a long winter. No more playing with our unicorn friend until it sorts out. Summer was fun while we had it.

[njbm 2,901]

Better safe than sorry. Live to swing another day. 

[enhancer 1,586]

 We have not got together with anyone else since this covid thing hit and we will not be anytime soon!  The lifestyle has always just been something we can do when the right opportunity pops up.  It has never been something we can’t live without.  We both are very happy to just fuck each other and don’t feel like we are missing out on something when that is all we are doing.

 

 When and if things get back to normal in life we will probably step back in when the right opportunity presents itself.

 

 We have actually been quite surprised by how many people have messaged us interested in meeting while this is going on.  I guess if you don’t have any family members or loved ones to be worried about giving a potentially deadly virus too, because you just got to get some strange then no big deal.  We do have family that would be at risk if they got this virus.  Easy choice for us. 

[njbm 2,901]

We are also surprised that people have contacted us and asked to get together. I have been Chicken Little since the beginning of the pandemic. Guess what, I was right as we approach World War 2 casualty levels. 

[mediccouple 45]

Due to our jobs and an uptick in cases we decided to take a break for a little bit. I prefer older men and due to the countless exposures or possible exposures we have had we wanted to see the numbers die down so we didnt potentially put anyone at risk. Two days ago i went in for a normal shift and we had started to look at our apps again to just test the waters. I had found a guy that was older (my type) on tinder and we started to chat a little bit I've found that its difficult to explain the swinging situation to a new person especially those that i dont meet on a swinger site. It still seems so weird to the outside world even though its common and something we have been involved with for some times now. As worrisome or at least in my mind is telling someone i work in healthcare in the middle of a pandemic. If that isn't a scarlet letter idk what is. We decided to meet for breakfast after i got off yesterday morning. We met up and had a decent conversation over breakfast and decided to meet later that day. I spent the afternoon getting ready as per usual. Picking out clothes lingerie etc. We had decided to meet at his place which is uncommon for me. I typically dont like meeting at someones house for safety reasons but it was spur of the moment and i got decent vibes from him. I remembered the rush i missed from the short time we had taken a break from swinging. The butterflies almost like a first date but with known outcomes. We talked a while and shared some cocktails. Its amazing that most of the questions asked to me are about my job. Apparently its more interesting than i think. After a while we started to make out and exchange oral sex. After several hours we had finished our escapades. The breath of fresh air to me was not only the sexual activities but the human interaction that was missed. It was a brief reminder of life pre pandemic. We will continue to keep an eye on outbreaks and do our part to keep others safe but this was a nice break from what has been a long nightmare to most healthcare workers regardless of their situation.

[njbm 2,901]

I presume you are vaccinated because you are in the healthcare field. Was your partner?

[mediccouple 45]

we actually (we- my husband and I) are not

 

[enhancer 1,586]

Just out of curiosity why have you and your husband  not been vaccinated yet if work in healthcare?

[mediccouple 45]

we feel as if there isnt enough research yet to prove the effectiveness of the vaccine. Its to much in the infancy stage to know if its safe or not

[GoldCoCouple 4,068]

Got to agree with mediccouple...doesn't mean we haven't got it or that we haven't already had Covid (we both have), but we look forward to things hopefully FINALLY returning to somewhat normal.

[njbm 2,901]

21 hours ago, mediccouple said:

we feel as if there isnt enough research yet to prove the effectiveness of the vaccine. Its to much in the infancy stage to know if its safe or not

99.7% of the people currently hospitalized for covid 19 are unvaccinated. Coincidence?

[ROCKlandCpl 452]

23 hours ago, mediccouple said:

we feel as if there isnt enough research yet to prove the effectiveness of the vaccine. Its to much in the infancy stage to know if its safe or not

So science is faulty or do you not believe in science? mRNA is not in its infancy. 

[Fundamental Law 2,903]

Somehow this has turned into a vaccination thread.

 

Going back to the original post, there is a sense of relief, of hope, of excitement now that the CDC has provided reassuring information about the safety of congregating provided those congregating have been vaccinated. Many, including ourselves, are coming out from the bunker--or at least the "bunker mentality"--and it feels great. Some of us have lost friends --some deaths from COVID, others from more prosaic causes--and perhaps this adds a sense of urgency towards living life while we have life to live. 

 

 

[adamgunn 1,461]

9 minutes ago, Fundamental Law said:

Somehow this has turned into a vaccination thread.

 

Going back to the original post . . . 

Not that we ever have gone off topic before . . .

[njbm 2,901]

I really believe it is one’s patriotic duty to get vaccinated to knock out the virus. So far, I have heard about more bad outcomes and long term problems from covid, not much from the vaccine.

 

Would hate to have our country look like India or Brazil. In terms of mass casualties per capita.  Probably will not due to fairly widespread vaccine acceptance in the US. 

Edited May 15, 2021 by njbm

[mediccouple 45]

Hey sorry guys just now getting a chance to see all these replies and i am not always online to check. First things first i do beliveve in science and i am not taking away from what has been said or the progress that has been made. We are not anti vaccinations and we have no objections to taking vaccines when we feel comfortable to do so. People decide to make decisions based on their own understanding and knowledge of things. We have made a choice to not decide to get vaccines as of yet and thats ok. Just like people decide not to swing and thats ok. Does our decisions affect others? Of course it has that potential but we are also open about our decisions. What is concerning is that we haven't told couple in the past that we both decided to not get the flu vaccine and let that alter our life when the flu has killed several thousands each year. We have became so mentally focused on this pandemic that we judge others based on decisions they may or may not make. I guarentee that each of your passing judgement have either not gotten or have slept with someone that has not gotten common and proven safe vaccines in the past and not even thought twice about it. We dont force others to make decisions regarding vaccines because it isnt our right to do so and this is one of those rights. If someone makes a concious decision to meet us knowing what they know then thats a decision they chose to make.

[njbm 2,901]

Not to be a nag, but I am surprised that people in the medical field choose to be unvaccinated. They have seen fatal and near fatal covid cases. They are exposed to a lot of people who may be sick and/or unvaccinated. Protect yourself!
 

When I was young, they offered a polio vaccine. Everyone ran to have their children get it. Polio, a dreaded illness in this country, has been largely defeated. I don’t remember anyone concerned about their rights, freedom, decision making process, etc. back then. We were thrilled to end a dreaded disease. 
 

If this country had to band together and fight World War II in today’s atmosphere, we would lose miserably. No community effort. Everyone’s freedom prevails  over everything else. 

[Fitlakecouple 451]

I used to believe all that "patriotic duty" stuff too. Then, I started noticing the number of times our gov't has misled, and outright lied to us. So, some skepticism about whatever our collective leadership tells us in certainly in order. Particularly when they pull the "it's your patriotic duty" card...

 

It's their body - it's their choice.

[cplnluv1 874]

23 minutes ago, Fitlakecouple said:

 

I used to believe all that "patriotic duty" stuff too. Then, I started noticing the number of times our gov't has misled, and outright lied to us. So, some skepticism about whatever our collective leadership tells us in certainly in order.

 

Do you mean drinking Clorox doesn’t work? How about sticking a UV light into you? 

 

11 hours ago, njbm said:

When I was young, they offered a polio vaccine. Everyone ran to have their children get it. Polio, a dreaded illness in this country, has been largely defeated. I don’t remember anyone concerned about their rights, freedom, decision making process, etc. back then. We were thrilled to end a dreaded disease. 

I looked this up, in fact people didn’t originally rush to get vaccinated, less than 1% rushed, then Elvis Presley went on TV, got vaccinated on Ed Sullivan’s show, and vaccination rates went up to 80%. No TikToc, no Facebook, no Twitter, and no picture on Instagram. Elvis was an influencer. 

[GoldCoCouple 4,068]

Don't kill the messenger: Please watch "The Social Dilemma" on Netflix. It explains that the information you are getting is only information that backs up the viewpoint that you already have...not necessarily the truth. This is what has caused (IMHO) the HUGE rift between people the last year or so (not just about Covid, but everything in general). If you only get data that supports your belief, then you end up thinking anyone who opposes your thinking is a nut job. Not picking sides here, just trying to enlighten other people as to why you end up thinking that anyone who doesn't agree with you is totally crazy when the 'facts' point out only one result (and the facts you are being given only reinforce your already given point of view). Half the world isn't crazy, but very few are being given ALL of the facts needed to make an informed decision.

 

On the internet: If they aren't trying to sell you something, it's because YOU are the product they are selling (aka: your data).

 

We now return your thread to your normal topic

[cplnluv1 874]

On 5/18/2021 at 12:08 PM, GoldCoCouple said:

. If you only get data that supports your belief, then you end up thinking anyone who opposes your thinking is a nut job

I believed Clorox works, it was on the right wing and left wing news stations, and that great scientist, the one who knows more than schooled scientists said it as working. He even had a scientist there who could have said it wouldn’t work if in truth it didn’t work. Additionally Tucker Carlson a Real journalist backed up the theory I think. 
Wait! Real journalist? You mean he’s only an entertainer, a comedian? 

[Baconheads 437]

On 5/13/2021 at 10:30 AM, mediccouple said:

Due to our jobs and an uptick in cases we decided to take a break for a little bit. I prefer older men and due to the countless exposures or possible exposures we have had we wanted to see the numbers die down so we didnt potentially put anyone at risk. Two days ago i went in for a normal shift and we had started to look at our apps again to just test the waters. I had found a guy that was older (my type) on tinder and we started to chat a little bit I've found that its difficult to explain the swinging situation to a new person especially those that i dont meet on a swinger site. It still seems so weird to the outside world even though its common and something we have been involved with for some times now. As worrisome or at least in my mind is telling someone i work in healthcare in the middle of a pandemic. If that isn't a scarlet letter idk what is. We decided to meet for breakfast after i got off yesterday morning. We met up and had a decent conversation over breakfast and decided to meet later that day. I spent the afternoon getting ready as per usual. Picking out clothes lingerie etc. We had decided to meet at his place which is uncommon for me. I typically dont like meeting at someones house for safety reasons but it was spur of the moment and i got decent vibes from him. I remembered the rush i missed from the short time we had taken a break from swinging. The butterflies almost like a first date but with known outcomes. We talked a while and shared some cocktails. Its amazing that most of the questions asked to me are about my job. Apparently its more interesting than i think. After a while we started to make out and exchange oral sex. After several hours we had finished our escapades. The breath of fresh air to me was not only the sexual activities but the human interaction that was missed. It was a brief reminder of life pre pandemic. We will continue to keep an eye on outbreaks and do our part to keep others safe but this was a nice break from what has been a long nightmare to most healthcare workers regardless of their situation.

I thought it was a pretty hot story!  I am in heathcare and I have not gotten the vaccine.  Never taken the flu shot either.

[discreetplay 235]

Not to keep up the vaccine talk but there are studies that show those who had Covid don't get any benefit from the vaccine. Other studies say one of the two shots may provide some further protection but the two shot vaccine doesn't give any benefit.

 

All the talk is that everyone needs to get vaccinated. All the propaganda channels push the same rhetoric. I haven't seen any stories about those who had Covid are getting reinfected. You'd think that would be headline stories to get those who had Covid to get vaccinated. The OP stated they had Covid so it doesn't appear that they need a vaccine.

 

 

 

[adamgunn 1,461]

From the CDC site: you should be vaccinated regardless of whether you already had COVID-19. That’s because experts do not yet know how long you are protected from getting sick again after recovering from COVID-19. Even if you have already recovered from COVID-19, it is possible—although rare—that you could be infected with the virus that causes COVID-19 again. Studies have shown that vaccination provides a strong boost in protection in people who have recovered from COVID-19. Learn more about why getting vaccinated is a safer way to build protection than getting infected.

 

You mentioned propaganda? 

[AndrewandAnn 360]

On 6/22/2021 at 3:17 PM, discreetplay said:

Not to keep up the vaccine talk but there are studies that show those who had Covid don't get any benefit from the vaccine. Other studies say one of the two shots may provide some further protection but the two shot vaccine doesn't give any benefit.

 

All the talk is that everyone needs to get vaccinated. All the propaganda channels push the same rhetoric. I haven't seen any stories about those who had Covid are getting reinfected. You'd think that would be headline stories to get those who had Covid to get vaccinated. The OP stated they had Covid so it doesn't appear that they need a vaccine.

 

 

 

There is no need to apologize for "keeping up the vaccine talk", as the subject is entirely germane to our lifestyle, as well as society in general. In fact, with the exception of perhaps AIDS, there has never been a health care subject that is more relevant to our lifestyle.

 

And you bring up some important considerations. There is a great deal of confusion regarding the question of, Who should be vaccinated and when? And, of course, What are the risks of administering the vaccine to people who do not need it?

 

In light of the many recent revelations regarding the Centers for Disease Control (CDC) and many of its top bureaucrats, we can be certain it is neither an unprejudiced nor purely science-based source of information on the subject of COVID-19 and everything it entails. We know the CDC has manipulated information and deliberately mislead the public on a number of issues--everything from the subject of masks, to so-called "herd immunity", to a frank and full disclosure about the inherent risks associated with the vaccine, and so on.

 

The CDC is now acknowledging there is a "likely association" between the vaccine and the development of a serious heart condition in adolescents and young adults, particularly males. And this is not an exceedingly rare complication. There have been more than 1,200 reported instances of people developing either an enlarged heart (myocarditis) or an enlargement of the tissue that surrounds the heart (pericarditis.) It is reasonable to presume the number of reported instances will continue to climb as more people are vaccinated and as the reporting of such instances catches up with the statisticians.

 

That the CDC continues to "recommend" young, healthy people be administered the vaccine is, to say the least, shocking. Its own statistical analysis demonstrates healthy adolescents and young adults represent one of the portions of the population that is least likely to develop any significant complications from COVID-19. In my view, knowingly administering a vaccine that is statistically unnecessary to an otherwise healthy person that results in a life threatening heart condition is tantamount to criminal medical negligence.

 

Regarding the millions of people in the US who have already had COVID-19 and recovered, the medical evidence to suggest there is any significant benefit to taking the vaccine is, at best, quite murky and, as we established above, the vaccine carries with it both known, and unknown, current and future potential medical complications.

 

So, yes, it is entirely reasonable for informed people to have significant reservations about the vaccine. In terms of our lifestyle play, we continue to maintain the same safety protocols we implemented at the beginning of the pandemic. We remain convinced we have not seen the last of the many facets of this "crisis" and expect there are many chapters in this book that have yet to be written. Some of those chapters are going to be quite unflattering to our so-called medical experts and government bureaucracies.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 25, 2021 by AndrewandAnn

[AndrewandAnn 360]

On 5/17/2021 at 8:02 PM, njbm said:

Not to be a nag, but I am surprised that people in the medical field choose to be unvaccinated. They have seen fatal and near fatal covid cases. They are exposed to a lot of people who may be sick and/or unvaccinated. Protect yourself!
 

When I was young, they offered a polio vaccine. Everyone ran to have their children get it. Polio, a dreaded illness in this country, has been largely defeated. I don’t remember anyone concerned about their rights, freedom, decision making process, etc. back then. We were thrilled to end a dreaded disease. 
 

If this country had to band together and fight World War II in today’s atmosphere, we would lose miserably. No community effort. Everyone’s freedom prevails  over everything else. 

Well, I think you raise an interesting point, but didn't follow it to the end question:

 

Yes, it is rather surprising that many people in the medical field are choosing not to be vaccinated. These are supposed to be the very people--the frontline workers--who are most informed about the dangers of COVID-19 and the need for the vaccine, right? Moreover, the unions that represent millions of health care workers are actively fighting against any requirement for their members to receive the vaccine.

 

Doesn't that seem more than a little strange? More than simple curiosity?

 

If the medical evidence shows the vaccine is necessary, effective, and safe, logically one would believe the medical community would be embracing the vaccine at a take rate of nearly 100%, right? And certainly the organizations that represent the health and safety of their workers would be in support of the vaccine, right? But, that it is not happening. In fact, the opposite is happening. Large swaths of the medical community is rejecting the vaccine. And the organizations that represent the health and safety of their health care workers are rejecting the vaccine.

 

Don't you think we should start asking, Why?

[GoldCoCouple 4,068]

Both my father (now recently deceased from cancer) and my mother worked in the medical field all of their lives (father = pharmacist mother = nurse practitioner). Both were/are now retired. My mother is 94. Pretty much the highest risk group...neither got or wanted to get the vaccine. My father, before he passed, went to great lengths to be sure his death was not listed as covid related.

 

“In addition, indemnity has been removed from most companies involved, including pharmaceutical companies, vaccine manufacturers, testing labs, and diagnostic centers, who are providing medical procedures or products."

 

Be aware, that we are not taking a side in this, we have both had covid, and because of our jobs were required to be vaccinated in order to keep working. We are just trying to present additional information. Don't kill or attack the messenger...

Edited June 25, 2021 by GoldCoCouple

[cplnluv1 874]

6 hours ago, AndrewandAnn said:

Well, I think you raise an interesting point, but didn't follow it to the end question:

 

Yes, it is rather surprising that many people in the medical field are choosing not to be vaccinated. These are supposed to be the very people--the frontline workers--who are most informed about the dangers of COVID-19 and the need for the vaccine, right? Moreover, the unions that represent millions of health care workers are actively fighting against any requirement for their members to receive the vaccine.

 

Doesn't that seem more than a little strange? More than simple curiosity?

 

If the medical evidence shows the vaccine is necessary, effective, and safe, logically one would believe the medical community would be embracing the vaccine at a take rate of nearly 100%, right? And certainly the organizations that represent the health and safety of their workers would be in support of the vaccine, right? But, that it is not happening. In fact, the opposite is happening. Large swaths of the medical community is rejecting the vaccine. And the organizations that represent the health and safety of their health care workers are rejecting the vaccine.

 

Don't you think we should start asking, Why?

Jun 11, 2021

CHICAGO — The American Medical Association (AMA) today released a new survey (PDF) among practicing physiciansthat shows more than 96 percent of surveyed U.S. physicians have been fully vaccinated for COVID-19, with no significant difference in vaccination ratesacross regions.Jun 11, 2021
 

yes 4% can be considered many, there are quacks in all professions, maybe those physicians are prescribing leeches or a UV suppository. 

[njbm 2,901]

It appears that 96% of physicians are vaccinated, whereas 150ish nurses were terminated at a Houston hospital for refusing to get vaccinated. I suggest that there is a correlation between high educational attainment and getting vaccinated.  

Edited June 25, 2021 by njbm

[Fundamental Law 2,903]

This topic is going to be around for a long time. Here's a somewhat different perspective on the vaccination thread. 

 

1. When the virus first surfaced, no one had immunity. The virus spread rapidly, and felled many of the most vulnerable. 

 

2. Prior to the vaccine, the virus continued to spread contained only by social distancing, masks, handwashing and so on. As those preventive measures were relaxed, the virus spread faster. We learned how many would get sick in the July-August "second wave". 

 

3. By the time the third wave started, a couple of things happened. Vaccine started to make its way into use, and there was focus on those vulnerable patients remaining alive. Moreover the number of people mildly infected or asymptomatically infected had grown to the point that the virus started having trouble finding a non-immune host. Put differently, the effective R number started dropping towards 1. 

 

What we're seeing in the hospital and in the intensive care units are the "unlucky unvaccinated". These are individuals who, as a matter of random chance, missed getting infected in the first year or so of the pandemic. This is not unlike the situation with any other respiratory virus--in any given year, some people simply escape infection rather than having low-grade or asymptomatic infection--and then get infected on the next round.  Unfortunately, some of these people will have especially horrific infections. See, for example, https://www.webmd.com/vaccines/covid-19-vaccine/news/20210618/man-refusing-covid-vaccine-later-needs-lung-transplant

 

It's not just SARS-CoV-2, the cause of COVID. As social distancing has relaxed, we are seeing a off-seasonal spike in other respiratory infections. See https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20210614/with-covid-easing-germs-are-on-the-hunt-for-us

 

The uptake of vaccine among practicing physicians speaks to the their level of concern. 96% is "nearly all". Some nurses have declined. From personal knowledge, those who work in the front lines are far more accepting than those who do not have direct daily patient contact. That's our general sense, and emphatically not based on systematic collection of data. 

 

The bottom line is that a substantial number of people --at least in the USA--are going to continue to decline the vaccine. Most will be lucky. Some will be unlucky and end up in the hospital, in the ICU and so on. As the Delta variant becomes prominent in the USA, we think there may be an uptick in those serious cases as the variant is at least a bit more transmissible (that is why it is becoming the dominant strain) and likely causes slightly more severe illness. The current vaccines are at least partially protective, and for COVID partial protection means not ending up in the hospital, in the ICU, on life support. 

 

The next uptick could be as early as the fall season. Cooler weather favor respiratory illness, and we will likely see an uptick in transmission as kids return to face-to-face classes. Kids typically (but not always!) have milder infections. Kids also will have difficulty maintaining distancing. Unless they are vaccinated, transmission will be probable. And then we will get into the wintertime "influenza like illnesses". 

 

It's going to be an interesting 12 months ahead. Our perspective is that the vaccines are the best countermeasures that we have, and we will continue to roll up our sleeves as the seasonal influenza vaccine is rolled out, the COVID booster is rolled out, etc. We understand the concerns, and nothing is risk free. But we also have looked at the numbers, and the numbers tell us that we are at far less risk from a serious reaction to any of the vaccines than we are from the viruses themselves. 

 

We are headed to a gathering of LS people in about 5 weeks. We expect all will be vaccinated. 

 

 

 

 

[AndrewandAnn 360]

15 hours ago, cplnluv1 said:

Jun 11, 2021

CHICAGO — The American Medical Association (AMA) today released a new survey (PDF) among practicing physiciansthat shows more than 96 percent of surveyed U.S. physicians have been fully vaccinated for COVID-19, with no significant difference in vaccination ratesacross regions.Jun 11, 2021
 

yes 4% can be considered many, there are quacks in all professions, maybe those physicians are prescribing leeches or a UV suppository. 

Largest health care union in the U.S. says it will oppose mandatory COVID-19 vaccines for workers at hospitals

By Mansur Shaheen For Dailymail.Com18:57 24 Jun 2021, updated 23:20 24 Jun 2021

'The public has legitimate concerns regarding the safety, efficacy, and effectiveness of any vaccine that has been developed and processed under an Emergency Use Authorization (EUA), and one that particularly has been developed at 'warp speed'' says a statement.

[AndrewandAnn 360]

15 hours ago, njbm said:

It appears that 96% of physicians are vaccinated, whereas 150ish nurses were terminated at a Houston hospital for refusing to get vaccinated. I suggest that there is a correlation between high educational attainment and getting vaccinated.  

 

1199 SEIU United Health Care Workers East is the nation's largest health care union, representing more than 450,000 nurses, pharmacists, nurse practitioners, physician assistants, laboratory technicians, radiological technicians, dieticians, and other medical professionals, in New York, New Jersey, Massachusetts, and Florida.

 

Anyone even remotely familiar with, for instance, the educational requirements of a nursing degree or pharmacology degree, and the state board examination requirements for licensure, would literally laugh-out-loud at the notion that these medical professionals are somehow under-educated.

 

 

[AndrewandAnn 360]

9 hours ago, Fundamental Law said:

We understand the concerns, and nothing is risk free. But we also have looked at the numbers, and the numbers tell us that we are at far less risk from a serious reaction to any of the vaccines than we are from the viruses themselves. 

 

 

That may be true for your specific demographic. But, it is certainly not true for every demographic.

 

The CDC's own data indicates the statistical probability of younger, healthy people developing serious medical complications from COVID-19 is about the same likelihood of developing serious complications from seasonal influenza. In other words, COVID-19 poses no more risk to them than the common flu.

 

With this in mind, the risk-reward calculous would lead to the objective, logical conclusion that "recommending" or "requiring" (as is the policy of some universities) young people be vaccinated is both medically, and morally, questionable. Vaccines in general, and the COVID-19 vaccine in particular, are not risk-free. The medical evidence pointing to the potential for serious complications among certain portions of the population is real and growing more so every day.

 

At this time, we simply do not yet have the time and data to render qualified judgements regarding the long-term safety, efficacy, or effectiveness, of the vaccine--or across all demographics. There is a reason why the Food and Drug Administration approved it under an Emergency Use Authorization. It means it did not follow the long-standing standard development and testing protocols. These protocols are not simply bureaucratic hurdles. They exist to ferret out the unknown, and often unexplained, potential complications and side-effects of medical treatments that initially appear safe. There are literally thousands of examples where certain medications, or treatments, were believed to be "safe" but, through long-term testing, were determined to have unacceptable side-effects are potential medical complications.

 

Given the CDC's recent acknowledgement of the "likely association" of heart complications in young, healthy males from the COVID-19 vaccine, it is obvious there is a great deal we either do not know about the potential side-effects from this vaccine, or the CDC has simply elected not to fully disclose them. Either way, it is more than reasonable grounds for concern and calls for caution.

 

 

 

 

[Fitlakecouple 451]

All this Covid / vaccine chat is a boner killer.

How 'bout if you want the vaccine - get the vaccine.

And, if you don't want the vaccine - pass on it.

And leave it at that.

[Fundamental Law 2,903]

3 hours ago, AndrewandAnn said:

Largest health care union in the U.S. says it will oppose mandatory COVID-19 vaccines for workers at hospitals

By Mansur Shaheen For Dailymail.Com18:57 24 Jun 2021, updated 23:20 24 Jun 2021

'The public has legitimate concerns regarding the safety, efficacy, and effectiveness of any vaccine that has been developed and processed under an Emergency Use Authorization (EUA), and one that particularly has been developed at 'warp speed'' says a statement.

SEIU also opposed mandatory influenza vaccination for health workers about a decade ago. 

[AndrewandAnn 360]

On 6/26/2021 at 8:51 AM, Fitlakecouple said:

All this Covid / vaccine chat is a boner killer.

How 'bout if you want the vaccine - get the vaccine.

And, if you don't want the vaccine - pass on it.

And leave it at that.

Ordinarily, I would be strongly inclined to agree with you. As a dyed-in-the-wool social libertarian (not to be confused with the Libertarian political party), I am very much in favor of individuals having the right to choose their own actions, or inactions, and reap, or suffer, the consequences. Frankly, the notion of individual liberty is what lies at the very core of the American value system. Or, at least it did. But... that's a topic for another time.

 

However, I'll give you three very sound reasons why this issue goes well beyond the "my body, my choice" thought process:

 

Firstly, the bureaucrats at the CDC have moved aggressively to now include children in the "recommended" categories of people who should receive the vaccine. Children are, by both legal and moral definition, incapable of making such consequential decisions. Society has both a legal and moral obligation to protect people who are not capable of making informed consent. This is why, for instance, the national age requirement to legally consume alcohol is twenty-one.

 

Secondly, as I mentioned above, this is particularly concerning because there is no objective scientific data to suggest the vaccination of younger, healthy people is medically necessary, and the COVID-19 vaccine is now believed to have a cause-effect risk of serious heart problems in younger, healthier people, particularly males. Why it does is not yet fully understood. And may never be. Note that administering a vaccine to someone who is otherwise healthy, that may result in a life-threatening side-effect, is an obvious violation of the fundamental principle of the physician's Hippocratic Oath, "First, do no harm." 

 

Thirdly, we are a society that places a profound amount of responsibility, and authority, in the hands of a large bureaucracies, staffed mostly by career bureaucrats. The US Department of Health and Human Services is a massive, complex government agency, of which the National Institute of Health (NIH) and the Center for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) are but two of its eleven operating divisions, not to mention its fifteen executive/legislative offices. These bureaucracies have massive influence over society. It will not take long for this "vaccinate at all costs" ideology to permeate our institutions and become translated into standardized thinking in our other institutions. For instance, we already see this happening at certain universities and colleges that have implemented mandatory vaccination programs for their students in spite of the fact that there is not a shred of evidence suggesting it is medically necessary. And, even scarier, this thinking is beginning to creep its way into our public school systems. Private industry is not far behind.

 

Clearly, this is not simply an issue of an individual's choice to be vaccinated or not.

[njbm 2,901]

AndrewandAnn, the number of cases of post-vax heart inflammation has occurred with a small number of people and the symptoms appear to be transitory. It would be great if it can be figured out and the vax  tweaked. 

[AndrewandAnn 360]

21 hours ago, njbm said:

AndrewandAnn, the number of cases of post-vax heart inflammation has occurred with a small number of people and the symptoms appear to be transitory. It would be great if it can be figured out and the vax  tweaked. 

There is no such thing as a consequence-free heart problem. Any medical complication involving the heart is, by definition, a grave matter. It doesn't take a medical doctor to understand the heart is the most critical organ in the body and complications that affect the heart are some of the most serious complications that can occur. An enlarged heart can lead to such problems as heart and/or heart valve damage, heart failure, blood clots, cardiac arrest, and sudden death. Treatment of an enlarged heart can range from heart medications to open heart surgery.

 

The idea that the vaccine can simply be "tweaked" is naiveté in the extreme. Scientists are only just now acknowledging the cause-effect relationship between the vaccine and these heart problems. They literally have no clue why this is happening, or how to stop it. More over, billions of doses of the vaccine have already been produced and have been administered to people of all ages throughout the world. There is no way to "tweak" vaccines that have already been produced. And once the vaccine has been administered, there is no way to alter it or "un-ring the bell".

 

But, you seem to be missing the larger point: Vaccinating young, healthy people is demonstrably unnecessary. And the vaccine's risk-reward calculous among young, healthy people is horribly, unacceptably bad:

 

Thus far, we know of 1,200 cases of myocarditis and/or pericarditis resulting from the vaccine. To put that number in perspective, according to the CDC's own statistics, only 2,767 people aged 12-29 have died from COVID-19 since the beginning of the pandemic. Why would we risk serious heart problems at a rate equivalent to roughly 43% of the number of people who have died from this disease? 

 

 

Edited June 28, 2021 by AndrewandAnn

[EastInWest 1,524]

1 hour ago, AndrewandAnn said:

There is no such thing as a consequence-free heart problem....

I agree with what you're saying here, and have questions about the merits of vaccinating young people. I also agree that this isn't something that can be tweaked away.

 

However, the reason for that, to my understanding, is that both myocarditis and blood clotting/stroke are also reported symptoms in young people from COVID-19 infection itself. The most likely explanation for myocarditis - and the widely-accepted explanation for the clotting - are violent immune responses. The data is still weak, but significant, and many cases of myocarditis in infected young people may have gone undetected. (How many young people get a troponin level taken outside of medical research? Even older adults have a hard time getting cardiac injury noticed and diagnosed correctly.)

 

This is most likely just a subset of what would happen if this same population got COVID. So what's the answer here? The virus is not going to go away, and will be a background infection circulating seasonally forever. If it's an "all or none" situation, we're either accepting that some will have harmful immune responses while also avoiding a small number of respiratory deaths, or we're accepting the small number of respiratory deaths and rolling the dice on how many young people will eventually become infected and experience the harmful immune responses anyway.

 

Yet it's not an all-or-none situation. It seems to me that the ethical choice here to let families make their own decisions about this. I do agree with you that it's troubling to see universities require it, etc., but businesses and organizations do have property rights, and students have a right to choose their university.

 

I do take issue with this passage:

 

Quote

 

Note that administering a vaccine to someone who is otherwise healthy, that may result in a life-threatening side-effect, is an obvious violation of the fundamental principle of the physician's Hippocratic Oath, "First, do no harm." 

 

This is, essentially, the definition of inoculation since the days of smallpox variolation. Some vaccines. like the yellow fever vaccine, can cause complications similar to yellow fever infection, and become more dangerous as you age. Essentially, if you don't get the yellow fever vaccine and acquire immunity at an age where you' might be best-equipped to survive yellow fever, you should never get it and are advised to simply avoid parts of the world where yellow fever is endemic. COVID ain't yellow fever, but the fact pattern is similar.

Edited June 28, 2021 by EastInWest

[AndrewandAnn 360]

On 6/28/2021 at 9:13 AM, EastInWest said:

I agree with what you're saying here, and have questions about the merits of vaccinating young people. I also agree that this isn't something that can be tweaked away.

 

However, the reason for that, to my understanding, is that both myocarditis and blood clotting/stroke are also reported symptoms in young people from COVID-19 infection itself. The most likely explanation for myocarditis - and the widely-accepted explanation for the clotting - are violent immune responses. The data is still weak, but significant, and many cases of myocarditis in infected young people may have gone undetected. (How many young people get a troponin level taken outside of medical research? Even older adults have a hard time getting cardiac injury noticed and diagnosed correctly.)

 

This is most likely just a subset of what would happen if this same population got COVID. So what's the answer here? The virus is not going to go away, and will be a background infection circulating seasonally forever. If it's an "all or none" situation, we're either accepting that some will have harmful immune responses while also avoiding a small number of respiratory deaths, or we're accepting the small number of respiratory deaths and rolling the dice on how many young people will eventually become infected and experience the harmful immune responses anyway.

 

Yet it's not an all-or-none situation. It seems to me that the ethical choice here to let families make their own decisions about this. I do agree with you that it's troubling to see universities require it, etc., but businesses and organizations do have property rights, and students have a right to choose their university.

 

I do take issue with this passage:

 

 

This is, essentially, the definition of inoculation since the days of smallpox variolation. Some vaccines. like the yellow fever vaccine, can cause complications similar to yellow fever infection, and become more dangerous as you age. Essentially, if you don't get the yellow fever vaccine and acquire immunity at an age where you' might be best-equipped to survive yellow fever, you should never get it and are advised to simply avoid parts of the world where yellow fever is endemic. COVID ain't yellow fever, but the fact pattern is similar.

Thanks for the thoughtful reply.

 

As you correctly point out, vaccination it's not an all-or-nothing proposition. The points I am making are rather simple:

 

There are large subsets of the population that do not require vaccination, and, in some instances, the vaccine may be causing unacceptable side-effects (in simple terms, doing more harm than good.)

 

I cited young, healthy people as an example. The incidence of death from COVID-19 among young people is remarkably low. The overwhelming number of young, healthy people who acquire the disease are able to fight it off with the own natural immune system while experiencing either comparatively mild or no symptoms whatsoever (asymptomatic.) This is evidenced by the CDC's own data.

 

We now understand there is a significant risk of these otherwise young, healthy people of developing very serious complications. That they may have developed similar complications from acquiring COVID-19 is irrelevant. The medical community's guidelines, at least historically speaking, have been crystal clear on this subject: We do not treat patients in advance, potentially causing life-threatening complications, under the notion that they "... well, if they get the disease, they may have some similar reaction, anyway." We treat the patient, not the disease. And our first obligation is to do no harm (more on that in a bit.)

 

Young, healthy people are not the only ones who do not require vaccination. There are tens of millions of people across a variety of demographics  in the US, and billions globally, who do not require the vaccine because they've already been infected. Their own immune systems have proven themselves capable of managing the infection--to the point that a large percentage of them exhibit either extremely mild symptoms or none. Requiring, or even recommending, someone who has already been infected to be vaccinated has no medical underpinnings because their bodies have already developed the necessary antibodies to fight off the disease. In fact, medical science knows, in many cases, the immune response in these unvaccinated individuals is actually better than the immune response prompted by the vaccine.

 

Likewise, using chicken pox as an example, if someone already has had the disease, the CDC's own published guidelines specifically recommend that person not get vaccinated because it is both medically unnecessary and the vaccine carries with it some level of risk (no matter how slight.)

 

Lastly, the "First, do no harm" mandate must, of course, be looked at in context. There is risk to everything we either ingest or come into contact with--from the soap we put on our skin to the air we breathe to the food we ingest. In most cases, the risk of a "bad reaction" is so low we hardly give it any thought.

 

That is not the case within the medical community. In the practice of medicine, there is always a risk-reward calculous that has to be rendered: Is the potential risk worth the potential benefit? This is why so many medications are prescription-only: A medical doctor's professional judgement is necessary to determine if the potential risk of taking the medication is worth the potential reward for that specific patient. And physicians are required to begin with the "most conservative" treatments or options--meaning those with the lowest potential risks with the greatest potential benefits. If no benefit, or only a slight benefit is shown, the physician then begins to move up treatment options the risk-reward scale. 

 

This is why we have a rather lengthy, stringent process administered by the FDA to determine if a medicine, or treatment, or vaccine in this instance, is comparatively safe to administer or not. If side-effects do occur, What are they? Are they mild or severe? Do they effect everyone, or only a small percentage of patients? Is there something that ties certain patients to negative outcomes that we can avoid? And so on.

 

In the case of the COVID-19 vaccine, we are just now starting to ask, Why is it causing serious heart, and heart related problems, in otherwise young, healthy people, particularly males? What role does a patient's sex have to play in this? Is this happening on a larger scale than what we currently understand? Is this happening in other demographic segments of the population, too, but going undetected? You make an excellent point about the difficulty of getting any heart-related issue properly diagnosed--this is even more true among young people. 

 

The Emergency Use Authorization for the COVID-19 vaccine, by definition, short-circuited the normal FDA approval process. There simply was not sufficient time to properly, thoroughly study the vaccine and answer these fundamental questions. Today, we know of side-effects including enlarged hearts; blood clotting in the lungs; enlarged tissue surrounding the heart. These are very serious issues with the vaccine that are just now starting to become known. It is not unreasonable to believe that, a year from now, we will have far more known cases of serious side-effects, or even deaths.

 

And this explains why the medical community has real, legitimate concerns about the vaccine. How much concern? According to one study conducted in late 2020, nearly one-third of all medical personnel in the US have indicated they are not prepared to be vaccinated at this time.

 

 

[njbm 2,901]

June and July looked good. But the news that the Delta variant can be transmitted to and from the vaccinated has put us back in the penalty box. Are others still playing?