Covid layoff affecting the lifestyle

[njbm 2,901]

37 minutes ago, TricianMike said:

Have you checked your link? 

728,125 dead of covid. But many will tell you they died of something else. But it got my attention. I’m vaccinated, wear a mask at indoor crowded places and socially distance. Hope to qualify for a booster soon. 

Edited October 21, 2021 by njbm

[lovefest04 701]

I see the numbers problem. Thanks. I do find it hard to believe that the data can't tell us the sex of over 138885 dead souls, but okay. The numbers are not part of my story, just interesting in the lack of data, the amount of guess work. The 728,xxx are made up of "1] Deaths with confirmed or presumed COVID-19, coded to ICD–10 code U07.1."  https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid_weekly/index.htm

 

Sorry can't read the NY times piece.

 

Here are two:

 

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32513410/

 

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-19802-w

 

1 hour ago, njbm said:

728,125 dead of covid. But many will tell you they died of something else.

Yes, it's a big number. But here's the numbers I like best. 728,125 dead represent 1.6% of all cases nationally. Of those, about 93.9% are over the age of 50. That demographic represents just 25.7% of the total population. So, that means that all other deaths 6.1% are found in 74.3% of the population. Vaccine and medical treatment measures should be focused on the 50 + crowd not the 50 and under crowd. The push to mandate vaccines for everyone is misguided and aimed at the wrong group.

 

And based on the CDC's data there have been 45,070,875 cases with 728,125 dying from whatever, which means that of the total cases 44,379,741 survived. 98.4% survived. And so why are we vaccinating 12 year olds?

[TricianMike 788]

27 minutes ago, lovefest04 said:

Yes, it's a big number. But here's the numbers I like best. 728,125 dead

Unless it’s you are someone you love. 

 

28 minutes ago, lovefest04 said:

93.9% are over the age of 50

Yeah, all those OLD 50 year olds. 
 

728,125!! and growing, overwhelmingly unvaccinated. 

[AndrewandAnn 360]

18 hours ago, DocPhotog said:

My father died of pancreatic cancer. My grandfather died of colon cancer. My best friend died - in shape and in his 40's - of a heart attack, while playing tennis. I could go on with other examples, but none of these were in their control or their individual choice.

 

What's missing from your Covid stats is the number of deaths due to some jackwad who refused to wear a mask.

 

Covid is preventable.

Concerning overall cancer deaths, the majority are due to lung cancer, and 80% of all lung cancers are due to smoking. One is not born a smoker. Smoking is a choice.

 

Concerning colorectal cancer, medical research has determined a person's behaviors can play a significant role in the risk of developing the disease. Behavioral factors that increase a person's likelihood of developing the disease includes smoking, a poor diet, lack of exercise, excessive alcohol consumption, and deficiencies in vitamin D, calcium, folate, and other vitamins and essential minerals. All of these behavioral risk factors are in within one's control. Read more here: 

 

https://siteman.wustl.edu/prevention/take-proactive-control/8-ways-to-prevent-colon-cancer/

 

Some cancers are not related to behavior but, comparatively speaking, they are statistically far less common. The majority of cancer deaths ARE related to behavior. That is the point.

 

Lastly, concerning COVID-19, the notion COVID-19 is "preventable" is rather silly. It is a virus that is now in general circulation of the worldwide population. It will be with us forever. The vaccine does not prevent one from acquiring the disease, or prevent one from spreading the disease. The vaccine simply helps mitigate the severity of the symptoms in most, but not all, people. Read more here:

 

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/22/dr-anthony-fauci-warns-the-coronavirus-wont-ever-be-totally-eradicated.html

 

 

 

[AndrewandAnn 360]

13 hours ago, DocPhotog said:

The insidiousness of this virus is that asymptomatic people can transmit it. So while one may think that not wearing a mask is their own personal choice or freedom, they are actually THE problem - passing on the virus without even knowing it. And if you catch Covid bc of the individual freedom crowd, or unwittingly pass it on to someone who is elderly or immunocompromised, that was not under your or their control.

 

I realize everyone is a youtube expert these days, and I'm no different. But for me it boils down to one simple, indisputable fact:

 

Viruses don't move. People move them.

Here is one indisputable fact: The virus is in general circulation of the worldwide population. It will be with us forever.

 

Here are some other indisputable facts: The vaccine does not prevent one from acquiring the disease, and does not prevent one from spreading the disease. The only function of the vaccine is to mitigate the severity of the symptoms of the disease in most, but not all, people.

 

This means you can just as easily be exposed to COVID-19 from someone who is vaccinated as from someone who is unvaccinated. Blaming the spread of COVID-19 on various boogeymen like "the unvaccinated" or someone "not wearing a mask" is not following the science. Vaccinated or unvaccinated; masked or unmasked, the virus is going to spread from person-to-person.

 

Read the above sentence again and let that sink in.

 

Lastly, some people are placing far too much importance on the subject of masks, social distancing, and so on. These things offer little, if any, practical value in preventing the disease. Remember, all of these tactics were originally implemented to slow the spread, not to prevent the spread. COVID-19 is a highly contagious virus now deeply imbedded in the worldwide population. COVID-19, like other frequent viruses including influenza and the common cold, is now part of the landscape. It is here and it is not going away.

 

Unless one plans on living as a hermit, having no outside contact with any other human being, the probability of being exposed to the disease at some time in one's life is extremely high. Over a person's lifetime, it is likely one will be exposed to the disease many times.

 

 

[EastInWest 1,524]

51 minutes ago, AndrewandAnn said:

Here is one indisputable fact: The virus is in general circulation of the worldwide population. It will be with us forever.

 

I agree with you, and yet...

 

...there's no shortage of amateur epidemiologists on both sides arguing the opposite of 80% of professional epidemiologists.

[DocPhotog 13]

1 hour ago, AndrewandAnn said:

Here are some other indisputable facts: The vaccine does not prevent one from acquiring the disease, and does not prevent one from spreading the disease. The only function of the vaccine is to mitigate the severity of the symptoms of the disease in most, but not all, people.

 

 

 

Umm, yeah. It's the difference between dying and not dying. It's the difference between getting Covid and having it not affect me, but passing it along to my 80 year old mother - who by the way, doesn't want to die with a tube stuck down her throat. 

 

If we didn't have the vaccination, and you were within 6 ft of an 80 year old, without a mask, there's a high probability that you are passing it to that 80 year old, and you are killing her. 

 

Read that sentence and let it sink in.

 

Another question for the numbers people out there:

 

How many people have died from administering the vax, or from complications from the vaccine? 

 

Of the people dying from Covid right now, what percentage are unvaccinated?

 

I think if you answer those two questions honestly, you'll know exactly who the "boogeyman" is.

[EastInWest 1,524]

7 minutes ago, DocPhotog said:

Umm, yeah. It's the difference between dying and not dying. It's the difference between getting Covid and having it not affect me, but passing it along to my 80 year old mother - who by the way, doesn't want to die with a tube stuck down her throat.

In fairness, I think the point they're making about the virus remaining transmissible is an important one - but it's also true that vaccinated people are infectious for shorter periods of time, which is also important.

 

We do still need to be careful around the elderly and immunocompromised, even if they're vaccinated, and personally, neither of want to get sick anyway, even knowing we'd be fine. There's a misconception about what "serious symptoms" means, as in medical parlance, that often means hospitalization. Vaccination is very good at preventing this. Vaccinated people can still be miserably sick for a week+.

 

(I don't understand the "it's just the flu" mentality, either. You ever been knocked on your ass for a week by actual influenza, not just a winter cold that people are calling "the flu"? It's shit. I have things to do.)

 

With that said, our idea of being careful is avoiding crowded indoor bars and restaurants, etc. We're still playing semi-regularly, just not in a large group setting. We traveled abroad this summer, and we'll probably do it again around the holidays assuming borders stay open.

[DocPhotog 13]

18 minutes ago, EastInWest said:

With that said, our idea of being careful is avoiding crowded indoor bars and restaurants, etc. We're still playing semi-regularly, just not in a large group setting. We traveled abroad this summer, and we'll probably do it again around the holidays assuming borders stay open.

Us too (although we're not really in the lifestyle, and not playing). We're not "living in fear" or whatever other bs people want to say. We're careful for ourselves, friends, family and community. We still live our life - have traveled across the US and abroad several times in the last year. We eat out and go to parties - primarily outdoors. I haven't missed a beat at work.

 

It's amazing how easy it is to live your life, but yet still be careful and concerned about others.

[njbm 2,901]

There is an old saying that when one person dies, a whole world disappears. Lovefest04, you are very focused on the mortality rate and its effect on older people (which I presume you are not).  But I suggest that you look beyond the numbers and your likelihood of survival and embrace the staggering amount of human pain and suffering that this country has endured with over 700,000 deaths in less than two years. Mothers, fathers, sons, daughters, unexpectedly gone forever. This is a great national tragedy. Why are there more cases and deaths in the US than anywhere else?

[AndrewandAnn 360]

2 hours ago, DocPhotog said:

Umm, yeah. It's the difference between dying and not dying. It's the difference between getting Covid and having it not affect me, but passing it along to my 80 year old mother - who by the way, doesn't want to die with a tube stuck down her throat. 

 

If we didn't have the vaccination, and you were within 6 ft of an 80 year old, without a mask, there's a high probability that you are passing it to that 80 year old, and you are killing her. 

 

Read that sentence and let it sink in.

 

Another question for the numbers people out there:

 

How many people have died from administering the vax, or from complications from the vaccine? 

 

Of the people dying from Covid right now, what percentage are unvaccinated?

 

I think if you answer those two questions honestly, you'll know exactly who the "boogeyman" is.

There is a lot of hyperbole and emotion in your reply. I appreciate this a topic that stirs intense feelings, but science is not subject to feelings.

 

Firstly, we can presume your 80 year-old grandmother is vaccinated. That means, by definition, she has done everything medically necessary to minimize her chances of having severe symptoms from COVID-19. But, she is just as likely to contract the disease today as she was before she was vaccinated. Her vaccination status doesn't change that fact.

 

Secondly, you seem to be under the mistaken impression that COVID-19 is an automatic death sentence for an 80 year-old. It is not. Tens of millions of elderly people have survived COVID-19. The risk of dying from COVID-19 is higher within the elderly population. But, the overwhelming majority of elderly persons survive. The segment of the elderly at greater risk possess other complicating factors such as obesity or other co-morbidities. They are, obviously, at a higher risk of death with or without the presence of COVID-19.

 

Thirdly, you seem to be under the mistaken impression that your 80 year-old grandmother is somehow  going to escape being exposed to COVID-19. Unless your grandmother lives in a hermetically sealed room, complete with negative airflow, and she avoids all human-to-human contact for her remaining days, she WILL be exposed. And, I hate to be the bearer of bad news, she is most likely to exposed by the very people to whom she is most close--her family and friends. Why? Because these the people with whom she has the most intimate, and most frequent, contacts. 

 

It doesn't matter whether, or not, her family and friends are vaccinated because both the vaccinated and unvaccinated spread COVID-19. It doesn't matter if they wear masks or practice social distancing because we know these tactics are not effective at stopping the transmission of COVID-19. The CDC never claimed they were. The CDC quite clearly said these tactics were designed to slow the spread, not stop it.

 

Lastly, you may want begin to accept this simple fact: The virus is going to do what it is designed (either by nature, or by a foreign government, or a combination of both) to do: SPREAD. There is literally nothing you, or anyone else can do, to eradicate it. That's not my opinion, that is a medical fact.

 

We cannot stop influenza. We cannot stop the common cold. And we cannot stop COVID-19. It is here. Blaming other people for the unstoppable course of a virus is not only foolish, it undermines the very cohesiveness of our society. So blame some other boogeyman if it suits your need to do so, but know you are more likely to transmit COVID-19 to your loved ones than the unvaccinated, unmasked boogeyman haunting your thoughts.

 

 

Edited October 21, 2021 by AndrewandAnn

[EastInWest 1,524]

On 10/14/2021 at 5:35 PM, lovefest04 said:

By the way, Pfizer shot is NOT FDA approved, at least not the one they are using. If they switch to Comarity (?) then they lose their Emergency Use Authorization and legal protection from the liability associated with side effects. so, they are still using the non-approved version of the drug under the EUA.

Incidentally, you've been given some bad information. The PREP Act exemption applies to all COVID-19 vaccines, and is not in any way tied to an EUA.

 

More importantly, manufacturers are already protected from liability for most vaccines, after the bogus DPT scare in the 1980s caused large jury awards that scared manufacturers out the market which turned into a national shortage. It's actually normal to be unable to sue the manufacturer directly for side effects. Instead, you have to go through a specific federal program to get compensated.

 

The PREP Act exemption merely designates a different government program, the Countermeasures Injury Compensation Program, to handle the claims, instead of the one that handles most others, the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program.

Edited October 21, 2021 by EastInWest

[AndrewandAnn 360]

1 hour ago, njbm said:

There is an old saying that when one person dies, a whole world disappears. Lovefest04, you are very focused on the mortality rate and its effect on older people (which I presume you are not).  But I suggest that you look beyond the numbers and your likelihood of survival and embrace the staggering amount of human pain and suffering that this country has endured with over 700,000 deaths in less than two years. Mothers, fathers, sons, daughters, unexpectedly gone forever. This is a great national tragedy. Why are there more cases and deaths in the US than anywhere else?

Yes, it is a terrible tragedy. I agree completely. 

 

I wonder when the US along with the rest of the Western World will grow enough backbone to finally get to truth about the origin of this terrible disease and demand accountability and some form of restitution?

 

Also, I wonder why we don't apply the same moral outrage and wholesale effort to combat other diseases, such as heart disease and lung cancer, that have claimed millions more people than COVID-19? In the last decade alone heart disease and lung cancer has claimed more than ten times as many people than COVID-19 and will continue to do so long after COVID-19 is no longer considered an epidemic.

 

Sadly, I think the US and the Western World has its overall healthcare priorities very strangely aligned. COVID-19 is a very serious disease. But, in contrast to heart disease or lung cancer, it pales. And obesity will eventually create a healthcare problem that will overshadow everything else. We have created tens of millions of overweight, sedentary souls who believe "good health" comes in the form of a pill or something they inject in their arms. In truth, they are digging their own graves one spoonful and one pill at a time.

[DocPhotog 13]

 

46 minutes ago, AndrewandAnn said:

 

 

Lastly, you may want begin to accept this simple fact: The virus is going to do what it is designed (either by nature, or by a foreign government, or a combination of both) to do: SPREAD. There is literally nothing you, or anyone else can do, to eradicate it. That's not my opinion, that is a medical fact.

 

 

 

Which is why so many people are dying of polio right now. 

 

 

but know you are more likely to transmit COVID-19 to your loved ones than the unvaccinated, unmasked boogeyman haunting your thoughts.

 

Umm, what?

[lovefest04 701]

3 hours ago, DocPhotog said:

How many people have died from administering the vax, or from complications from the vaccine? 

Huge area that needs research. At this point all we have is the VAERS system as a depository for data, but it is unconfirmed. So, we'll hear a lot more about this as time progresses.

 

3 hours ago, DocPhotog said:

Of the people dying from Covid right now, what percentage are unvaccinated?

I don't care. It's each persons right to choose the vaccinate or not. Period. I should be allowed to make an informed decision about my personal health needs without the punishment of losing a job, not being allowed to fly, not being welcome in a restaurant etc. All of those 'punishments' are based on the flawed concept that unvaccinated people somehow spread this virus and are responsible for 'killing others'. There is simply no scientific evidence to support this. There are lots of people who keep ringing that bell, but even it 100% of the world gets vaccinated, people will continue to get sick, some seriously some not so much.

 

AndrewandAnn - thank you for your clear and concise information. It is appreciated, at least by me.

 

2 hours ago, njbm said:

Lovefest04, you are very focused on the mortality rate and its effect on older people (which I presume you are not).

Once again, I'm 59 years old. So young by my parents standard and old by my children's standard. That is not my point. I just don't want to get the vaccine and all the lies and hype about me putting others at risk is not sufficient to make me or anyone else comply. These mandates are wrong, they should be illegal and they won't help. So, let's not inject anyone who wished to take the risk or any children with a toxic substance under the misguided idea that they are 'killing' others.

 

2 hours ago, njbm said:

staggering amount of human pain and suffering that this country has endured with over 700,000 deaths

 

30 minutes ago, AndrewandAnn said:

I wonder when the US along with the rest of the Western World will grow enough backbone to finally get to truth about the origin of this terrible disease

Instead of turning on neighbors, family and friends that wish to remain vaccine free and don't pose any additional risk to the vaccinated, lets figure our who did this. Really, why aren't people demanding answers about the virus's origin?

Edited October 21, 2021 by lovefest04

[AndrewandAnn 360]

3 hours ago, EastInWest said:

 

I agree with you, and yet...

 

...there's no shortage of amateur epidemiologists on both sides arguing the opposite of 80% of professional epidemiologists.

The entire subject of COVID-19 has been hijacked by people on all sides who want to politicize and exploit every aspect of it to advance their own aims and agendas.

 

I cynically laugh anytime I hear someone in the media or politics say, "follow the science" when nothing about the response to COVID-19 has ever been solely about the science or untainted by political calculations.

 

Also, I find it remarkably disingenuous when talking heads in the media and certain politicians complain about people being skeptical of the vaccine when they were the very people sowing skepticism about the vaccine when the previous administration occupied the White House.

 

The truth is the response has been a mangled mess right from the start. There is plenty of blame to go around for the 720,000+ people who died from COVID-19, but none will take responsibility. They just continue to point the fingers elsewhere.

 

"Prospera omnes sibi indicant, aduersa uni imputatur", Tacitus, 98 AD. Loosely translated it means, "Success has many fathers, but failure is an orphan"

[NC_Seniors 519]

The thing that those who oppose taking the vaccine — and mandates to do so — don’t seem to consider is that the overwhelming number of COVID sufferers in hospitals are UNvaccinated.  Crisis Standards of Care have already been implemented in three states because there just aren’t enough open beds and/or staff to look after patients.  Which also means that some people who come into the hospital due to a heart attack, stroke, automobile accident, or whatever aren’t able to receive the care they need.  And this could *all* be prevented if more people would just get vaccinated so they didn’t get so severely sick.  So yes, you have the right to make a personal decision … but don’t act as if your decision has no effect on anybody else, because it does!

[AndrewandAnn 360]

4 minutes ago, DocPhotog said:

 

Which is why so many people are dying of polio right now. 

 

 

but know you are more likely to transmit COVID-19 to your loved ones than the unvaccinated, unmasked boogeyman haunting your thoughts.

 

Umm, what?

Polio?

 

There is no comparing COVID-19 and polio.

 

Understandably, people outside of the medical community use the terms vaccination and immunization interchangeably. They are not the same things.

 

A vaccine helps the body's own natural immune system fight a disease. An immunization actually prevents the body from developing the disease.

 

Americans were immunized against polio, but are only vaccinated against COVID-19

 

The polio immunization was highly effective at preventing the patient from developing polio and, thereby, prevented the spread of the disease. Over time, as more and more people were immunized, the disease could not spread and eventually disappeared altogether. Note it took decades for this to occur.

 

Conversely, the COVID-19 vaccine does NOT prevent the spread of the disease. Why? Because a vaccinated person is just as likely to acquire and spread COVID-19 as is an unvaccinated person. The ONLY thing the COVID-19 vaccine does it to help prevent more severe reactions to the disease.

 

Finally, there is a substantial difference between a disease that has been eliminated and a disease that has been eradicated. Those terms have significantly different meanings in the medical community. Elimination means a disease is no longer prevalent, but does appear from time-to-time. Eradication means a disease is no longer found in the community.

 

Polio used to be considered eradicated. Unfortunately, polio is starting to again show up in certain populations around the globe.

 

[njbm 2,901]

1 hour ago, lovefest04 said:

 

 

 

Instead of turning on neighbors, family and friends that wish to remain vaccine free and don't pose any additional risk to the vaccinated, lets figure our who did this. Really, why aren't people demanding answers about the virus's origin?

What difference does it make whether the virus was a lab accident or came from animals? Isn’t the priority figuring out how to end the pandemic or at least curb it? The most effective weapon is the vaccine. But so many rather have their freedom. All those dead anti-vax radio hosts have their freedom now. 

[AndrewandAnn 360]

36 minutes ago, njbm said:

What difference does it make whether the virus was a lab accident or came from animals? Isn’t the priority figuring out how to end the pandemic or at least curb it? The most effective weapon is the vaccine. But so many rather have their freedom. All those dead anti-vax radio hosts have their freedom now. 

If you received a gunshot to the head, and you were laying in an ICU fighting for your life, I imagine someone close to you would like to know who was responsible for pulling the trigger.

 

I'll wager they would want the police to find that person and prosecute them to the fullest extent of the law, regardless of whether it was an unintentional discharge or an act of deliberate malice.

 

Also, I would imagine they would want the responsible party to be liable for any medical costs associated with your stay in the ICU, as well as any other costs associated with your hopeful recovery.

 

The origin of COVID-19 is, in fact, of supreme importance.

 

No serious person believes it was introduced to the world by a half-eaten bat. US intelligence has stated it most likely came from a lab. That is their operating assumption.

 

If it was a lab accident, how did it happen and why? What protocols were, or were not, followed? What new protocols need to be established so this never happens again?

 

What was the NIH and/or CDC's involvement in this research? How and why? Did the NIH and/or CDC previously disclose its involvement? If not, why not? Were the laws against gain of function research followed? Or, were they skirted based on some legalistic interpretations that followed the letter of the laws, but not the intent? And so on.

 

Lastly, if the release of COVID-19 was the deliberate act of Chinese adversaries.... well, I think you probably understand the ramifications, even if you do not want to admit so.

 

 

Edited October 21, 2021 by AndrewandAnn

[TricianMike 788]

3 hours ago, lovtosuc said:

 

why argue with a fool, when you are forced to lower the dialogue to their level

 

You are correct, we won’t argue with you. 

[Fitlakecouple 451]

When we reorganize the board I hope there is no category for this 'to and fro' waste of time...

[enhancer 1,586]

I started this thread out of frustration!  I see now that it was a mistake.  I am sorry I did and sorry I offended so many. We are all adults here and are entitled to our own opinions.  Regardless of which side of things you are on we should all respect others might not agree.  As people have said we all have a right to make our own decisions.  You do you and let other do themselves.  
 

Now everyone can go back to talking about all the great things that make this lifestyle so amazing.  There is no winning with this subject.  
 

[EastInWest 1,524]

4 minutes ago, enhancer said:

I started this thread out of frustration!  I see now that it was a mistake.  I am sorry I did and sorry I offended so many.

You didn't do anything wrong at all. Everybody's frustrated and it should be possible to talk about that. I just don't see the value in people taking it personally and pointing fingers at each other or their neighbors on here.

 

We're not setting Federal Reserve rates in these threads, we're on an internet forum about group sex. None of us control any of this, and if we "win" on here, nothing changes in our real lives.

[J&Wu 410]

Hate to beat a red horse but need to clarify the definition of vaccination and immunization per the CDC:

 

"Definition of Terms

Immunity: Protection from an infectious disease. If you are immune to a disease, you can be exposed to it without becoming infected.

Vaccine: A preparation that is used to stimulate the body’s immune response against diseases. Vaccines are usually administered through needle injections, but some can be administered by mouth or sprayed into the nose.

Vaccination: The act of introducing a vaccine into the body to produce protection from a specific disease.

Immunization: A process by which a person becomes protected against a disease through vaccination. This term is often used interchangeably with vaccination or inoculation."

 

And Polio vaccine is one of the most important. 3 doses result in near 100% immunity to the type/types of polio included in the vaccine. Lifelong! 

 

 

[TricianMike 788]

         
just to clarify, Dead Horse not Red Horse.            

Edited October 23, 2021 by TricianMike

[J&Wu 410]

22 hours ago, TricianMike said:

         
just to clarify, Dead Horse not Red Horse.            

Thanks, spell check can be creative!

[AndrewandAnn 360]

On 10/22/2021 at 2:55 PM, enhancer said:

I started this thread out of frustration!  I see now that it was a mistake.  I am sorry I did and sorry I offended so many. We are all adults here and are entitled to our own opinions.  Regardless of which side of things you are on we should all respect others might not agree.  As people have said we all have a right to make our own decisions.  You do you and let other do themselves.  
 

Now everyone can go back to talking about all the great things that make this lifestyle so amazing.  There is no winning with this subject.  
 

The subject is both topical and entirely germane to the lifestyle. There certainly is no reason to regret it.

 

Why would you feel responsible for someone else's reaction or juvenile behavior? Lol... It's the Internet. You're always going to get a mixed bag between thoughtful replies, gibberish, and ad hominem attacks. It's the nature of the beast. It's not limited to this site, I can assure you! Hah!

 

Ignore the stupid posts and focus on having conversations with people who have something intelligent to say.

 

 

 

 

 

[AndrewandAnn 360]

On 10/23/2021 at 2:11 AM, J&Wu said:

Hate to beat a red horse but need to clarify the definition of vaccination and immunization per the CDC:

 

"Definition of Terms

Immunity: Protection from an infectious disease. If you are immune to a disease, you can be exposed to it without becoming infected.

Vaccine: A preparation that is used to stimulate the body’s immune response against diseases. Vaccines are usually administered through needle injections, but some can be administered by mouth or sprayed into the nose.

Vaccination: The act of introducing a vaccine into the body to produce protection from a specific disease.

Immunization: A process by which a person becomes protected against a disease through vaccination. This term is often used interchangeably with vaccination or inoculation."

 

And Polio vaccine is one of the most important. 3 doses result in near 100% immunity to the type/types of polio included in the vaccine. Lifelong! 

 

 

Thanks for posting this.

 

As I said earlier, it is understandable how some in the general public fail to differentiate being vaccinated and being immunized.

 

Whenever you hear someone talk about COVID-19 and polio in the same breath, you know they are confusing the two.

 

[alicenaraa 3]

If you decide to skip the vaccine that’s obviously entirely your choice. But given we are all taking the vaccine to not only protect ourselves, but the whole of society (especially the vulnerable) I would encourage everyone to take it. Also, this page kasualapp.com/dating-during-the-coronavirus/ explain why Covid surge the online dating.

[MrMrsswinger 205]

4 hours ago, alicenaraa said:

If you decide to skip the vaccine that’s obviously entirely your choice. But given we are all taking the vaccine to not only protect ourselves, but the whole of society (especially the vulnerable) I would encourage everyone to take it. Also, this page kasualapp.com/dating-during-the-coronavirus/ explain why Covid surge the online dating.

 

I agree. And you better start soon if you decide to get the vaccine. The CDC is soon to recommend a 4th dose for immunocompromised people.

 

Immunocompromised people may need a fourth Covid-19 shot, CDC says - CNN

 

With the goal posts still moving, imagine what "fully vaccinated" will mean a year from now. I think Vegas has the over/under at 5.5. That's a no-brainer...I'll take the over. Maybe Pfizer will create a wearable pump to give constant doses of the vaccine. You know, like an insulin pump. This way everyone will be "fully vaccinated" regardless of the every increasing booster shots in order to live in our "free society", and avoid the deadly 99+% survivable virus.

 

[lovefest04 701]

On 10/21/2021 at 10:27 AM, NC_Seniors said:

Which also means that some people who come into the hospital due to a heart attack, stroke, automobile accident, or whatever aren’t able to receive the care they need.  And this could *all* be prevented if more people would just get vaccinated

The stats just don't support your conclusion nor is it particularly useful.

 

The idea that us horrible anti vaxx people are hurting the rest of society is simply a trumped up concept to get people like yourself to pressure people like me to get vaccinated. It's no different than trying to force people to get vaxxed or lose their job. I could make the same ridiculous argument blaming people that don't take care of themselves for filling up ICU's due to heart attack, cancer, diabetes.

[lovefest04 701]

On 10/28/2021 at 6:11 AM, MrMrsswinger said:

I agree. And you better start soon if you decide to get the vaccine. The CDC is soon to recommend a 4th dose for immunocompromised people

Totally. They may also re-define the meaning of fully vaccinated to include a 3rd shot (booster), which would mean that if states or cities continue down a path of vaccine passports (New York) all of you who have gotten the first two shots would no longer be considered fully vaccinated.

 

There's a saying about doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result.....

 

Frankly, the longer this goes on the more insane it all looks.

[njbm 2,901]

On 10/22/2021 at 10:20 AM, lovtosuc said:

Cases of covid for the unvaccinated vs. the vaccinated : 12x

Deaths from covid for the unvaccinated vs. the vaccinated:6x. 

[EastInWest 1,524]

On 10/28/2021 at 9:11 AM, MrMrsswinger said:

 

I agree. And you better start soon if you decide to get the vaccine. The CDC is soon to recommend a 4th dose for immunocompromised people.

 

Immunocompromised people may need a fourth Covid-19 shot, CDC says - CNN

 

I have to ask, and I ask sincerely: if we're going with the trope that it's "just the flu" or "just another flu" or whatever, why is this surprising?

 

The immunocompromised - and the pregnant, and some other groups - are prioritized for seasonal flu vaccines every year. Many businesses require them of employees, and several states require them for healthcare workers by law.

 

There are things going on that I find excessive, but why would this, specifically, the risks to the immunocompromised, have ever been expected to work differently?

Edited October 31, 2021 by EastInWest

[njbm 2,901]

3 hours ago, EastInWest said:

I have to ask, and I ask sincerely: if we're going with the trope that it's "just the flu" or "just another flu" or whatever, why is this surprising?

 

The immunocompromised - and the pregnant, and some other groups - are prioritized for seasonal flu vaccines every year. Many businesses require them of employees, and several states require them for healthcare workers by law.

 

There are things going on that I find excessive, but why would this, specifically, the risks to the immunocompromised, have ever been expected to work differently?

Some people just want to be contrary. Only in America is a life saving vaccine a bad thing. 

[MrMrsswinger 205]

On 10/30/2021 at 6:21 PM, njbm said:

On 10/22/2021 at 9:20 AM, lovtosuc said:

Cases of covid for the unvaccinated vs. the vaccinated : 12x

Deaths from covid for the unvaccinated vs. the vaccinated:6x. 

I'll take your numbers are accurate (didn't look them up). But what is missing is context. Example, if your chances of surviving Covid are 99+% because you're in the 18-40 age group and someone in the 65+ group has a 97% chance of surviving, the headline will read that the elderly are three times more likely to die from Covid (3 of 100 vs 1 of 100). So you write that deaths for the unvaccinated are 6 times more than the vaccinated...age group, other factors?

 

And the big question that will never be answered because politics invaded Covid starting in March 2020 when the prior administration was labeled racist for saying it came from China, how many people are dying with Covid vs dying because of Covid? There is a 95, 97, 99% (whatever it is based on age group, etc) chance of survival using statistics exaggerated because of politics. We saw daily Covid death numbers throughout 2020 on every news broadcast and every newspaper but they're nowhere to be found today. Yet, more people have died "of Covid" under the current administration than the prior even with vaccines. Per a news story last week, California went from highest to lowest in Covid cases and Newsom should get all the credit. The same news source mentioned Florida showing extremely low cases but DeSantis doesn't deserve any credit. Politics have eliminated any chance of a consensus in precautions, in accurate numbers and any approach to the next pandemic.

 

Mask, no mask, physical distance 6 feet, no wait...3 feet, no...12 feet, protest without a mask if your cause fits a certain agenda, spreads via surface contact, doesn't spread via surface contact, gator is worse, gator is better, gator is the same as a mask, cloth masks don't work unless you wear two, must wear N95, cloth masks are fine, remain at home unless you host a wedding at your house and fly to Mexico for a party, must wear a mask standing at a bar but if you sit you can take it off, wear a mask outdoors, wear a mask if you are unvaccinated, get vaccinated so you don't have to wear a mask, wear a mask even if you're vaccinated, wear a mask indoors unless you "feel the spirit" of the music, wear a mask unless you spend $500 a plate at a fancy restaurant...Huh?

 

 

[njbm 2,901]

The messaging has often been terrible and inconsistent. Among the worst was at the beginning of the pandemic when some experts said the average person does not have to wear a mask, only to change to everyone has to wear a mask. Now many people are not wearing masks indoors. Are they vaxxed? Unvaxxed? No one checks. 

[AndrewandAnn 360]

6 hours ago, MrMrsswinger said:

I'll take your numbers are accurate (didn't look them up). But what is missing is context. Example, if your chances of surviving Covid are 99+% because you're in the 18-40 age group and someone in the 65+ group has a 97% chance of surviving, the headline will read that the elderly are three times more likely to die from Covid (3 of 100 vs 1 of 100). So you write that deaths for the unvaccinated are 6 times more than the vaccinated...age group, other factors?

 

And the big question that will never be answered because politics invaded Covid starting in March 2020 when the prior administration was labeled racist for saying it came from China, how many people are dying with Covid vs dying because of Covid? There is a 95, 97, 99% (whatever it is based on age group, etc) chance of survival using statistics exaggerated because of politics. We saw daily Covid death numbers throughout 2020 on every news broadcast and every newspaper but they're nowhere to be found today. Yet, more people have died "of Covid" under the current administration than the prior even with vaccines. Per a news story last week, California went from highest to lowest in Covid cases and Newsom should get all the credit. The same news source mentioned Florida showing extremely low cases but DeSantis doesn't deserve any credit. Politics have eliminated any chance of a consensus in precautions, in accurate numbers and any approach to the next pandemic.

 

Mask, no mask, physical distance 6 feet, no wait...3 feet, no...12 feet, protest without a mask if your cause fits a certain agenda, spreads via surface contact, doesn't spread via surface contact, gator is worse, gator is better, gator is the same as a mask, cloth masks don't work unless you wear two, must wear N95, cloth masks are fine, remain at home unless you host a wedding at your house and fly to Mexico for a party, must wear a mask standing at a bar but if you sit you can take it off, wear a mask outdoors, wear a mask if you are unvaccinated, get vaccinated so you don't have to wear a mask, wear a mask even if you're vaccinated, wear a mask indoors unless you "feel the spirit" of the music, wear a mask unless you spend $500 a plate at a fancy restaurant...Huh?

 

 

Superb reply.

 

Also, on the subject of vaccine politics and hypocrisy, you forgot to mention the people in power today are the very same people who were guilty of fomenting distrust about the vaccine from the very start. That's right. The people who demand the firing of nurses, doctors, cops, firefighters, pilots, teachers, etc. for not being vaccinated, are the very ones who were undermining public confidence in the vaccine from the onset. Search then Sen. Harris' comments about the "Trump" vaccine.

 

And you certainly could have pointed out the glaringly inaccurate predictions that thousands of fans attending college and professional football games, and other sporting events, were destined to be COVID-19 "super-spreader events!" In reality, there has been no meaningful spike in COVID-19 infections related to any sporting events, even where tens of thousands of unmasked people are standing shoulder-to-shoulder for hours on end.

 

We know these statements and policies are all political in nature because, even when they fail spectacularly, we never hear or read any corrections or redactions; we never hear Fauci, or one of Biden's other lackeys, simply say, "Gee. We sure got that wrong. Maybe we've been over-reacting a bit?"

Edited November 2, 2021 by AndrewandAnn

[AndrewandAnn 360]

On 10/31/2021 at 1:03 PM, EastInWest said:

I have to ask, and I ask sincerely: if we're going with the trope that it's "just the flu" or "just another flu" or whatever, why is this surprising?

 

The immunocompromised - and the pregnant, and some other groups - are prioritized for seasonal flu vaccines every year. Many businesses require them of employees, and several states require them for healthcare workers by law.

 

There are things going on that I find excessive, but why would this, specifically, the risks to the immunocompromised, have ever been expected to work differently?

It is uncommon for a main stream business, or state governments, to have policies to terminate employees for refusing the flu vaccine. It does happen, but it is certainly not widely accepted policy throughout all businesses or state governments. Also, organized labor unions have decried these heavy-handed tactics and have often filed lawsuits to challenge them. The point being, this is far from a settled matter.

 

And patients being prioritized for available vaccines has nothing in common with employees being coerced to be vaccinated. One is voluntary. The other is not.

 

 

 

 

[EastInWest 1,524]

42 minutes ago, AndrewandAnn said:

And patients being prioritized for available vaccines has nothing in common with employees being coerced to be vaccinated. One is voluntary. The other is not.

I'd point out that in the states that have elected that policy, few healthcare workers are fired for failing to get the flu vaccine because objectors (without a covered ADA or Civil Rights Act explanation) are unlikely to be hired in the first place. (Beyond narrow qualified exceptions, there really is little legitimate legal controversy about this that I'm aware of.)

 

But as I said, my real question is specifically on the complaint about the immunocompromised needing boosters indefinitely. If we agree, for the sake of argument, that it's "just the flu", is this really a surprise?

[travelingprofessional 48]

I find it pretty amazing how people view Covid. Some fear it like it is Ebola or something and others view it as a common cold. With their particular view, they then look at the vaccine in a similar way. They don't need a vaccine when the sickness is no big deal....or they ran out and got it because everyone dies from Covid.

 

The politics are beyond frustrating. The data, as someone else said, is so screwed up that it is difficult to make a decision based on it. I never get the flu shot. I got a J&J shot because it was required for some of my travels earlier in the year. I probably wouldn't have bothered had I not been forced. I've had Covid. My whole family had Covid (not the kids). It came, it went. 

 

The sad thing is that this is just another issue dividing people. In terms of swinging and those who require others to be vaccinated, do you do the same level of medical screening regarding herpes, HPV, Chlamydia, HIV, etc? Do you have them bring recent test results for all of them? Do you check vaccine cards to make sure the couple was vaccinated more than two weeks prior to meeting up, to make sure the vaccine is in full effect? Do you force couples to use condoms you bring, to make sure they aren't old and no longer effective?  When you go to a club, how do you know that everyone has been vaccinated? We haven't seen proper social distancing in any club.

 

We've decided that this lifestyle comes with risks. Covid is just another. Just like politics, we do not talk about Covid with other people because it is such a divisive issue. We're in this to have physical fun. We don't care who you vote if you're a whole lot of fun naked.

[njbm 2,901]

I do think covid has made swingers less carefree about STDs and transmissible diseases.

We are older, self-admittedly uber cautious. We have parents with health problems who are 97, 89 and 88. We don’t want to knock them out. 

[AndrewandAnn 360]

On 11/1/2021 at 9:41 PM, EastInWest said:

But as I said, my real question is specifically on the complaint about the immunocompromised needing boosters indefinitely. If we agree, for the sake of argument, that it's "just the flu", is this really a surprise?

 

What you may be failing to appreciate is this: The issue is not about the boosters per se, but about the constant moving of the goal posts. There is a growing percentage of Americans who, rightly or wrongly, are growing more and more frustrated with the government's ever-changing requirements and recommendations surrounding every aspect of COVID-19; rules and recommendations that are, inarguably, often driven more by politics than by science.

 

Personally, we have no problem with a regime of regular COVID-19 vaccination boosters so as long as they are judged to be medically necessary and comparatively safe. We will simply add COVID-19 boosters to the laundry list of vaccines we receive on a regular basis.

 

Having said that, we also support the individual right to determine what does, and does not, go into her/his body. And we feel strongly that these heavy-handed mandates are exactly the WRONG way to go about things. A longer-term, more gentle, and less confrontational approach would, in our judgement, have a far greater chance of success. "Do it, or else!" is a terrible way to win over hearts and minds.

 

Lastly, we have all but completely abandoned the wearing of masks (obviously, except where required by law) and have greatly loosened up our social distancing standards as these particular habits now obviously appear to have no real medical or scientific purpose. 

 

 

 

 

[AndrewandAnn 360]

On 11/5/2021 at 9:23 AM, lovtosuc said:

Here is a fact, if 80% of the population were vaccinated, we wouldn't even be having this discussion

You're both right and wrong.

 

If 100% of the population was vaccinated against COVID-19, the virus would still be with us. The vaccine does not prevent one from either acquiring, or transmitting, the disease.

 

Yes, the incidence of death and hospitalizations would be reduced. But, the overall rate of decline could only be estimated. And estimates vary wildly.

 

As we have already learned with the Delta variant, the virus will constantly mutate, rendering previous vaccines either less effective or perhaps even ineffective. In fact, researchers are concerned this particular virus appears to have the ability to mutate at a far faster pace than previously studied viruses thereby making the battle to keep vaccines one step ahead of the virus a far more challenging effort.

 

The flu vaccine has been around for decades. Yet, according to the CDC, seasonal influenza affects roughly 21 million people annually in the US and costs more than $11 Billion in hospitalization, office visits, etc. The CDC, in its updated figures, says deaths attributed to influenza ranged from 12,000 to 79,000 people annually from 1976-2007. And, of course, we all know about the so-called 1918 Spanish Flu, a strain that killed more people world-wide than any other disease in recorded history.

 

 

[AndrewandAnn 360]

On 11/4/2021 at 2:40 PM, travelingprofessional said:

I find it pretty amazing how people view Covid. Some fear it like it is Ebola or something and others view it as a common cold. With their particular view, they then look at the vaccine in a similar way. They don't need a vaccine when the sickness is no big deal....or they ran out and got it because everyone dies from Covid.

 

The politics are beyond frustrating. The data, as someone else said, is so screwed up that it is difficult to make a decision based on it. I never get the flu shot. I got a J&J shot because it was required for some of my travels earlier in the year. I probably wouldn't have bothered had I not been forced. I've had Covid. My whole family had Covid (not the kids). It came, it went. 

 

The sad thing is that this is just another issue dividing people. In terms of swinging and those who require others to be vaccinated, do you do the same level of medical screening regarding herpes, HPV, Chlamydia, HIV, etc? Do you have them bring recent test results for all of them? Do you check vaccine cards to make sure the couple was vaccinated more than two weeks prior to meeting up, to make sure the vaccine is in full effect? Do you force couples to use condoms you bring, to make sure they aren't old and no longer effective?  When you go to a club, how do you know that everyone has been vaccinated? We haven't seen proper social distancing in any club.

 

We've decided that this lifestyle comes with risks. Covid is just another. Just like politics, we do not talk about Covid with other people because it is such a divisive issue. We're in this to have physical fun. We don't care who you vote if you're a whole lot of fun naked.

On the point about the division that exists in the US, let's face facts: It is entirely intentional.

 

Straight out of the gates, politics invaded every aspect of the COVID-19 pandemic. The political opposition to the former organization demonized every single move it made, no matter the consequences, right up to and including the introduction of the vaccine. As I've mentioned previously, it is the very height of hypocrisy for the current administration to admonish and demonize people for failing to get vaccinated when they were the very ones fomenting distrust in the vaccine right from the beginning--because it suited their political objectives. They never gave a single thought about the long-term consequences of those actions. They just wanted the Orange Haired Ogre gone and they didn't care how they did it. They determined the pandemic could be used as a wedge issue, and they weaponized it.

 

The vaccine mandates are obviously just another political weapon. If the goal of the administration was actually to win over the hearts and minds of the people sitting on the fence about the vaccine, "Do it! Or else!" and threatening someone's livelihood would not be the logical tact. The current administration feels it serves their political objectives to create an "Us vs. Them" political dynamic; to paint "Us" as the intelligent, logical, science-based crowd, putting the so-called Common Good first, while painting "Them" as uneducated, knuckle-dragging, tin hat conspiracists, married to their sisters, who are existential threats to the Common Good. 

 

For instance, look at how they've attempted to demonize Florida Governor DeSantis for his handling of the COVID-19 pandemic? Never mind that Florida, the third largest state in the union, now enjoys the lowest over infection rate per capita. And, unlike California, Florida's economy is booming and people continue to move here in record numbers. Objectively speaking, Governor DeSantis probably managed the pandemic better than just about any other governor of any other major state in the union.

 

In contrast, they heralded and lionized the (now-disgraced and former) New York Governor Cuomo, who, by any objective measure, managed his state into an economic and healthcare catastrophe. We'll never know the full extent of his mis-management because nobody in this current administration, or the main stream media, has any interest in reporting on it. Why? It doesn't serve their political objectives: Blue states = Good; Red states = Bad. Us vs. Them.

 

Regarding the medical risks inherent to swinging, not all risks are the same. Some risks are acceptable; others are not. Vaginosis and chlamydia won't kill you and are usually cleared up with a couple of rounds of antibiotics and typically have no long-term side effects. Other diseases, like hepatitis and HIV, are far more serious with potentially long-lasting, life altering, sometimes life ending, results.

 

We've always been people who played with a very purposeful eye towards reducing the odds of a catastrophic medical problem. Most serious risks can be mitigated by just following some fairly sensible precautions. Testing is one. Playing within a closed circle is another. Following a hard rule regarding condoms is a third.

 

However, most sexually transmitted diseases are contact diseases. COVID-19 is not a contact disease. It is spreads through aerosolized particulates, just like influenza and the common cold. This is going to make mitigating it far more difficult.

 

And, just because COVID-19 was no big deal to one person, doesn't mean it won't be a big deal to someone else. I had a 51 year-old friend, fully vaccinated, and in otherwise excellent health (an avid runner) pass away from COVID-19, leaving behind a wife and two kids.

 

 

 

 

[MrMrsswinger 205]

My point about the booster shot recommendation was, as someone said since my post, was that the goal posts are moving. This will never end. San Francisco is requiring 5 year olds to have vaccine cards to eat at restaurants!?!? You've got to be kidding me. This is the insanity that I just can't grasp. A higher percentage of children die from the flu every year than Covid. Why isn't there a mandatory flu vaccination for children?

 

And as for 'what's wrong with the recommending the immunocompromised get boosters'....nothing, if that's where it ended. How many NBA players are immunocompromised?  NBA to players, coaches, refs: Booster shots are recommended | NBA.com   There are no goal posts any longer.

 

So if you live in California, do you need a booster every six months to remain "fully vaccinated" so you can continue enjoying the freedom to eat at a restaurant?  

 

A buddy of mine told me Austin TX canceled their President's Day parade for the second year in a row due to Covid. This year it was canceled because the organizers stated there was no way to check everyone's vax card who attends the outdoor parade! 

 

Lunacy.

 

 

[ToeDippers 83]

Lunacy is posting over and over again with the same points. 
I wear seat belts, I don’t smoke in theaters and restaurants, I stand for the National Anthem, take my hat off, don’t drink on the beach, stay within the speed limit, don’t drink and drive, all these infringements on my rights are for the benefit of all. My father said that people were annoyed when they were made to wear seatbelts, I was annoyed when I was told I couldn’t drive and text or talk on my cell. 
I get flu shots every year because the goal posts change location every year, so what if I need a booster as science learns how this virus mutates or the find out if the potency wanes over time. 
Ok you can go back to your rants that are convincing nobody. Just preach to your choir and be happy. 

[Shygurl860 2]

On 10/8/2021 at 4:02 PM, lovefest04 said:

That is simply not true. If anything the vaccines encourage mutations that are resistant to vaccines or drugs.

 

Ask a Dr. or Nurse about antibiotic resistance in hospitals.

 

And to say that doesn't respect the opinions or choices of others, It's judgemental.

 

Oh and I have advanced degree, went through public schools and didn't get vaccines.

By thi logic why take the polio vaccine?

[njbm 2,901]

I don’t understand the hatred by people for the covid vax. I am sure these people are vaccinated for polio, measles, mumps, chicken pox, etc.  

 

Well, I guess I do understand.