Excuses, excuses!?

[Naberius 3]

My wife and I have fairly recently begun exploring the lifestyle. We have kept this a secret from everyone we know, and would prefer to keep it that way if we can. For now at least.

We have friends and neighbors who we have regularly hung out with almost every weekend and often weeknights for many years, but recently have been spending some weekday evenings and entire weekends at LS events, just going going out for drinks with matches or overnight playdates, and have been dodging our friend's questions about "what we are doing, and why can't they come?!"... We have been telling them that we have been spending more quality "us time", going on date nights, and even staying at hotels "to escape for a night alone" or even "working late", which is mostly not entirely untrue, but we feel like we are running out of excusable reasons to spend time without some of our best friends. We have spent the better part of the last 8 years mostly hanging out with our group of friends, going on date nights with them frequently, hanging out at one another's house, weekend vacations, etc. Now out of the blue we are going out on more and more of these mystery escapades without them.

 

They are all good friends, but they are a gossipy bunch, and we really don't think we are ready to divulge our new lifestyle with them quite yet, knowing that everyone we know will know within days of telling one person. ?

We have a weekend hotel party coming up and we're looking for excuses for us being gone alone all weekend again. Have any suggestions?

We also have a playdate lined up with a woman we play with from time to time coming from out of town to stay the night with us. Usually we get a hotel for a night, but we have the house to ourselves this weekend and will be hosting at home. The wife has suggested having her park away from the house and having me go and pick her up from there so we can "sneak her in the back", but that just seems sketchy to me. Any advice for what we might say when our friends and neighbors spot this stranger parking in front of our house, going in and not leaving it until the next morning? Maybe having her park down the road is the best option?

 

Just trying to avoid that awkward conversation with the neighbors, or at least be prepared with believable answers other than "Yeah, she's our FWB, jelly?" ?

 

[EastInWest 1,524]

You could do that, there's also always Uber/Lyft.

 

Our single female lives a block away and they are cardio buddies, so gym clothes have made for a decent cover story.

[Naberius 3]

8 hours ago, EastInWest said:

You could do that, there's also always Uber/Lyft.

 

Our single female lives a block away and they are cardio buddies, so gym clothes have made for a decent cover story.

Gym buddies will be a hard sell as our friends are also our gym buddies. ?

[lcmim 1,082]

Our friend "lynn" is visiting for a few days from out of town. We have a lot of catching up to do.

 

[lcmim 1,082]

Do not overthink it. If you act like you are hiding something shameful you will be.

 

If your friends get overly intrusive of curious , you owe them nothing more than being polite.

 

If they get too curious tell them she was a lover from years past, and let them wonder.

[couplers 4,638]

21 hours ago, Naberius said:

They are all good friends, but they are a gossipy bunch

Makes me think they are not that good of friends.

 

My theory is that people gossip only about things that are unknown.  Jim and Sue at the office?  When nobody knows for certain what's going on between them, there's lots of salacious talk.  Once they talk about how they are living together and you see them driving in together, no one talks about their sex life any longer, despite whatever it might be.  With us in our poly family, people used to speculate about what we were doing.  Now that they know we all live in one big house (a "compound" as hubby like to call it with a house and guest house) with all these kids of various parentage, no one asks or even cares.  So perhaps if you come right out and say your spending time with your swinger friends, the gossip will burn very hot, but very brief and your friends will no longer care about your sex life.  It will become normalized, just like Jim and Sue having sex.

Edited July 7, 2021 by couplers

[Naberius 3]

I imagine we will let them in on it eventually. All of them. Probably. We don't even hide our faces on the LS sites we frequent, so we imagine that sooner or later someone we know may stumble across us if they haven't already. We aren't overly concerned about people finding out, but the missus would prefer to keep tight lips about it for now.

They are all great friends, but yes, they do participation in the occasional "did you hear such and such" and "you didn't hear this from me" business. We tend to avoid that mess, but we are perhaps just a little better at keeping things to ourselves than some others. ?

We will discuss the possibility of letting them in on it. For now, she's still insisting we sneak our lady friend in through the back door. ? We understand discretion is a big thing in the LS, so we can't imagine this is too unheard of.

[lcmim 1,082]

Again , someone seen "sneaking" in through the back door is far more comment worthy than any one walking in through the front door. 

[AndrewandAnn 360]

Respectfully, I think a few folks might be oversimplifying things. The decision tree has a few more branches on it:

 

Keep in mind, if you decide to go public with your lifestyle activities, you could (likely will) also be exposing your lifestyle partners. What are their privacy expectations? Have you discussed it with them? Do you have their explicit permission to expose them, too? Have you thought about your families, and what they might feel about it? What about your professional careers? Have you thought about what might happen if/when your lifestyle activities are exposed at your respective companies?  Your lifestyle actions/inactions could (and probably will) affect more people than just yourselves. And once the toothpaste is out of the tube, there is no way to get it back in. 

 

Also, while your friends may be "great", you might want to prepare yourselves for the fact that some of them may not be so accepting of your choices. I've never known anyone who has "come out" publicly about being swingers who did not experience some negative social, and often professional, consequences. We all wish people would be kind and accepting of everyone. But, that seldom happens in real life. 

 

If you decide to "come out", good for you. And there could be some good that comes from it. Just think through it carefully before you do. 

 

Best of luck.

[EastInWest 1,524]

21 minutes ago, AndrewandAnn said:

Respectfully, I think a few folks might be oversimplifying things. The decision tree has a few more branches on it:

Tend to agree. For most situations, there's a sweet spot between "acting like we have a huge secret" and "announcing our secret".

 

"Vanilla" people also may or may not understand that your wife is not necessarily available to them just because you play with others and it may cause some strain.

 

We only play with one person locally, and that person does not know that this is a lifestyle choice for us. We may or may not ever disclose that, but if we do, it won't include unvetted vanilla friends. Some of our friends would probably not be surprised, others are sexually oblivious and would go insane. Neither adds any benefit, though. It's a private matter and if anyone asks, they'd certainly be told to mind their own business.

Edited July 8, 2021 by EastInWest

[Lionheart72 2,190]

Back in the day, we told the truth... just not all of it. We'd tell our friends we were "going dancing" (which was true, we would start the evening dancing... we just didn't mention the group sex with strangers part of the evening). We once ran into a couple we'd met at a swingers club at church... asked how we knew each other I responded "oh, we met through some mutual friends at a party" (which, again, was true... I just didn't say who the friends were or what kind of party it was)

 

In regards to your lady friend coming over, I would really suggest you just say "she's a friend who is visiting and is going to be staying with us instead of getting a hotel" ... just avoid the temptation to mention the crazy naked sex part. People don't look for things they don't expect and really, most people don't expect "oh, we're swingers and we're going to spend the weekend having wild sex with this women."

[GoldCoCouple 4,065]

We agree with Lionheart: The best 'lies' always involve the truth. First of all, you don't need to tell them anything but if you feel that you need to, tell them you are going away for the weekend (leaving out the 'to attend a l/s event"). We have a friend coming to visit and stay with us for a night or two (leaving out "to have sex with"). One thing that I have been able to get away with (since I'm kind of a joker at work) is when talking about what everyone was doing the upcoming weekend was to say that we are planning on going to an orgy. Everyone would laugh and shrug it off as another one of my jokes. On Monday, one or two people would always ask how the orgy was and I would say it was great and we would all laugh again.

 

DO NOT tell your friends that you are involved with swinging...ever. This will cost you friendships. There will be several 'friends' who are so shocked and appalled at this that they will quit seeing you AND tell everyone they know that you are swingers (not that it is any of their business). Unless you are ready for all of your friends, family, and coworkers to know what you are doing in your bedroom and pass judgement on you, don't tell them anything. Why do they even need to know? This is something best kept separate and if one of your friends suspect something and ask (which is kind of rude that anyone would ask about something like this), you can decide what to tell them at that time. Otherwise, NOTHING GOOD WILL COME FROM TELLING THEM ANYTHING. If, on the off chance you are to run into one of your friends at a L/S event, remember that they want to keep this a secret as much as you do, so your secret will be safe with them. It will also give the four of you something to talk about when you are together (wink, wink, nudge, nudge).

 

Maybe some day people will become more enlightened and open (remember people 'coming out' as gay as recent as 30 years ago and being shunned and shamed), but today is not that day.

[Lionheart72 2,190]

15 minutes ago, GoldCoCouple said:

DO NOT tell your friends that you are involved with swinging...ever. This will cost you friendships.

At the risk of hijacking the discussion, I'm going to respectfully disagree with GoldCoCouple on this one... I think it depends on your friends. I've had friends who I've told whose response was "of course you do, because you and your wife are CRAZY PEOPLE" and we're still friends. I've had friends I told whose response was "oh my god, you too?" which then lead me spending a year having an tumultuous friends-with-benefits relationship with one them, that ultimately ended disastrously (dig a little in the archives here, you'll find posts ) but it was a hell of a ride I wouldn't want to have missed. I have friends I will never tell just because sex simply isn't something we talk about.

 

So, yes, telling people might cost you a friendship... or expand one, or leave one exactly the same as before... it all depends on the friends.

[PeterJ 948]

2 hours ago, GoldCoCouple said:

DO NOT tell your friends that you are involved with swinging...ever. This will cost you friendships. There will be several 'friends' who are so shocked and appalled at this that they will quit seeing you AND tell everyone they know that you are swingers (not that it is any of their business). Unless you are ready for all of your friends, family, and coworkers to know what you are doing in your bedroom and pass judgement on you, don't tell them anything.

Winner, Best Advice of the Week Award. Certain contender for Best Advice of the Month Award. My nominee for Best Advice of the Year Award.

[Fundamental Law 2,885]

The orthogonal responses above simply indicate that there is no one right answer, there is only the right answer for the OP.

 

It's perfectly reasonable to draw a sharp separation between public life and private life. Whether that separation can be maintained, and at what level of effort, is another question. Keeping track of who knows what is not trivial. And in this age of so much communication, there may be unexpected spillover between private and public life. 

 

The general guidance above is sound. Volunteer nothing. If asked, include as much truth as reasonable. Avoid deception whenever possible. You don't have to answer every question asked of you. However...

 

At some point you may well get a direct question that will force you either into a lie or into telling some uncomfortable truth. If you lie, be prepared to perpetuate a consistent lie. If you tell an uncomfortable truth, make sure you control the message, stay on message, and message only what needs to be shared. Figuring out how you plan to handle the direct question before it comes is a little like an insurance policy: you pay the (planning) premium hoping you never have to use it. 

[Numex 2,415]

On 7/8/2021 at 10:32 AM, GoldCoCouple said:

Maybe some day people will become more enlightened 

Hopefully.   It would be nice to be open about this aspect of our lives. 

 

On 7/8/2021 at 10:32 AM, GoldCoCouple said:

remember people 'coming out' as gay as recent as 30 years ago and being shunned and shamed), but today is not that day.

We all owe a debt to those brave people who made their orientation public and were proud of it.

 

On 7/8/2021 at 10:51 AM, Lionheart72 said:

.. I think it depends on your friends.

Certainly. 

[discreetplay 235]

I agree with the "don't ever tell" anyone about your lifestyle. Some people won't care. Some will and create alliances - you won't get invited to neighborhood gatherings, etc. We live in an awesome neighborhood. Families everywhere, kids everywhere, gatherings 2-3 times a month (birthday parties, pool parties, etc). The first event we attended after moving in we were let in on the "horrific incident" where a couple in the neighborhood had some relations with others. That couple has been excommunicated. Since then we've heard the story from 4-5 other "astonished" couples who just cannot believe such things happen.

 

It is ridiculous. The gossip is junior high stuff. People whispering about others. Those "immoral swingers"....give me a break. So I would not tell anyone what you do, and I wouldn't play with anyone in the neighborhood. Once the genie is out of the bottle, you'll always be viewed as some sort of heathen by the loud-mouth majority. It isn't worth it.

 

It isn't any of their business why you're going out on weekends without them. As for your guest, again, none of their business. It is a college friend, a family member, whatever. You don't need to explain. 

 

[Idahocouple6969 294]

TBH we lie.... there I said it. We live in gossip central. In a small rural area populated with ultra right wing fanatic religious people. 

 

We never play close to home for that reason. The nearest LS club is 400 miles out of state. Don't get me wrong there are good LS groups around it's on a need to know basis.  I strongly suggest that if you want to maintain your vanilla contacts you will keep it quiet.

[AndrewandAnn 360]

On 7/8/2021 at 4:44 PM, Fundamental Law said:

The orthogonal responses above simply indicate that there is no one right answer, there is only the right answer for the OP.

 

It's perfectly reasonable to draw a sharp separation between public life and private life. Whether that separation can be maintained, and at what level of effort, is another question. Keeping track of who knows what is not trivial. And in this age of so much communication, there may be unexpected spillover between private and public life. 

 

The general guidance above is sound. Volunteer nothing. If asked, include as much truth as reasonable. Avoid deception whenever possible. You don't have to answer every question asked of you. However...

 

At some point you may well get a direct question that will force you either into a lie or into telling some uncomfortable truth. If you lie, be prepared to perpetuate a consistent lie. If you tell an uncomfortable truth, make sure you control the message, stay on message, and message only what needs to be shared. Figuring out how you plan to handle the direct question before it comes is a little like an insurance policy: you pay the (planning) premium hoping you never have to use it. 

I'm not suggesting you're "wrong" or that we're "right". This is just a different perspective:

 

We've found it to be comparatively easy to avoid the need to lie by following a simple rule:

 

When you keep public things public, and keep private things private, you don't have to lie. Someone's sex life, vanilla or otherwise, is nobody else's business. Period. Your sex life only becomes someone else's business when you (or someone close to you) makes it someone else's business.

 

Even in this bizarre day and age, under normal social mores, sexuality is still a private matter. In the exceedingly rare instance someone asks you a question regarding something as personal and private as your sex life--an invasive and obviously inappropriate line of questioning--you can simply remind them they have crossed a line: "Our private life is none of your business" or words to that effect. That reminder is all that is required. No lie, no matter how well intentioned or carefully crafted, is necessary.

 

In our opinions, lying, in any facet of one's life, universally creates more problems than it solves. Even if the lies are never discovered, they still create the emotional and intellectual weight of carrying around unnecessary "head trash". Far better to simply maintain normal and accepted social boundaries. The comparatively little effort that is required is more than fairly compensated by one's peace of mind.

 

 

Edited July 10, 2021 by AndrewandAnn

[AndrewandAnn 360]

9 hours ago, Idahocouple6969 said:

TBH we lie.... there I said it. We live in gossip central. In a small rural area populated with ultra right wing fanatic religious people. 

 

We never play close to home for that reason. The nearest LS club is 400 miles out of state. Don't get me wrong there are good LS groups around it's on a need to know basis.  I strongly suggest that if you want to maintain your vanilla contacts you will keep it quiet.

I understand your sentiments. But, let's be reminded that fanatical, judgmental hypocrites are not limited to the "ultra right wing", whatever that is.

 

Also, if you find the social circumstances surrounding you to be so unappealing, you can always move. That's what we did. We moved to the subtropics where life in general, and the social culture and mores in particular, are decidedly more... relaxed. We wouldn't want to try and raise kids here, that's for certain. But, at our stage of life, that is of no concern.

 

[Numex 2,415]

34 minutes ago, AndrewandAnn said:

When you keep public things public, and keep private things private, you don't have to lie. Someone's sex life, vanilla or otherwise, is nobody else's business.

Agreed.  Even if you are being totally honest about being in the lifestyle, that doesn't mean you go into any details.  A guy or woman or a couple is spending the weekend with us.  Nothing further to be said.

[Fundamental Law 2,885]

7 hours ago, AndrewandAnn said:

I'm not suggesting you're "wrong" or that we're "right". This is just a different perspective:

 

We've found it to be comparatively easy to avoid the need to lie by following a simple rule:

 

When you keep public things public, and keep private things private, you don't have to lie. Someone's sex life, vanilla or otherwise, is nobody else's business. Period.

 

 

We are in agreement. Maintain the distance and avoid mixing public and private life. That said, there can be moments when the two are juxtaposed.  For example, if you come back from a trip without tan lines, it's pretty clear that you were not wearing a swimsuit much of the time. If you happen to be showering at the gym after a workout, someone may well notice. You are out with vanilla friends and LS friends come by your table and say hi, the question comes up  from your vanilla friends about your LS friends "nice folks, how do you know them?". There are other circumstances where lives can cross. Just know what you plan to say in advance, and hope you never have to say it. 

[PeterJ 948]

1 hour ago, Fundamental Law said:

We are in agreement. Maintain the distance and avoid mixing public and private life. That said, there can be moments when the two are juxtaposed.  For example, if you come back from a trip without tan lines, it's pretty clear that you were not wearing a swimsuit much of the time. If you happen to be showering at the gym after a workout, someone may well notice. You are out with vanilla friends and LS friends come by your table and say hi, the question comes up  from your vanilla friends about your LS friends "nice folks, how do you know them?". There are other circumstances where lives can cross. Just know what you plan to say in advance, and hope you never have to say it. 

It’s useful to keep in mind the old aphorism that it’s easier to tell the truth because then you don’t have to remember the lie. That said, as FL suggested, its wise to anticipate the question coming up and have a prepared response. Few people are sufficiently mendacious that they can spin persuasive and non-disprovable falsehoods off the top of their heads. But, as we are discussing in this thread, there are times when the consequences of abject truth might be socially (and professionally) disastrous. 

 

Sissela Bok, philosopher and ethicist (and the daughter of two Nobel Prize winners) more than four decades ago wrote a nuanced and thought-provoking book on truthfulness titled “Lying: Moral Choice in Public and Private Life”. (https://www.amazon.com/dp/0375705287/ref=cm_sw_em_r_mt_dp_6YVFYH40QW65XWC88571)

 

Bok notes that there are times when it is not only permissible to lie, but — particularly in the private sphere — both ethically and morally correct to be untruthful. I cannot readily think of a more appropriate circumstance in which to be disingenuous, or completely untruthful, than in keeping one’s sex life private. I suspect most (not necessarily all) members of this board would agree.

 

What’s a more difficult call in my mind is the case of immediate family. If you are lying to your spouse/partner, that’s just cheating. To me, it’s justifiable in this regard to lie to parents, siblings and adult children. What potentially complicates matters with the relatives listed above is that you face the possibility of a double whammy. You are exposed both as a liar and as living outside societal norms. 

 

 

[AndrewandAnn 360]

15 hours ago, PeterJ said:

It’s useful to keep in mind the old aphorism that it’s easier to tell the truth because then you don’t have to remember the lie. That said, as FL suggested, its wise to anticipate the question coming up and have a prepared response. Few people are sufficiently mendacious that they can spin persuasive and non-disprovable falsehoods off the top of their heads. But, as we are discussing in this thread, there are times when the consequences of abject truth might be socially (and professionally) disastrous. 

 

Sissela Bok, philosopher and ethicist (and the daughter of two Nobel Prize winners) more than four decades ago wrote a nuanced and thought-provoking book on truthfulness titled “Lying: Moral Choice in Public and Private Life”. (https://www.amazon.com/dp/0375705287/ref=cm_sw_em_r_mt_dp_6YVFYH40QW65XWC88571)

 

Bok notes that there are times when it is not only permissible to lie, but — particularly in the private sphere — both ethically and morally correct to be untruthful. I cannot readily think of a more appropriate circumstance in which to be disingenuous, or completely untruthful, than in keeping one’s sex life private. I suspect most (not necessarily all) members of this board would agree.

 

What’s a more difficult call in my mind is the case of immediate family. If you are lying to your spouse/partner, that’s just cheating. To me, it’s justifiable in this regard to lie to parents, siblings and adult children. What potentially complicates matters with the relatives listed above is that you face the possibility of a double whammy. You are exposed both as a liar and as living outside societal norms. 

 

 

For us, the issue is neither an ethical nor moral one.

 

It is a matter of practicality and maintaining an uncomplicated life. There simply is no reason to lie, regardless of the line of questioning.

 

In the event someone asks an innocent, innocuous question like, How do you know them?, no lie is necessary to respond. An innocuous and innocent reply is all that is required: We met them through friends. Or some other factual response that gives away no other details.

 

However, in the very unlikely event the line of questioning crosses the line and invades your private life--and certainly someone asking about your sex life is definitely crossing the line--a simple and firm reply such as, Our private life is none of your business, will stop them in their tracks. Guaranteed.

 

To be frank, we've found that most of these kinds of "dilemmas" are fairly easy to avoid and largely only exist in our imaginations. I'm fairly certain none of us are politicians or celebrities whose lives are scrutinized without boundaries by the slimy cable news press corps or paparazzi. So, it really isn't hard to maintain a private life. A little bit of common sense and sound judgement is all that is required.

[Fitlakecouple 451]

Just because someone asks a question doesn’t mean you need to answer it… 

[bbarnsworth 2,637]

On 7/6/2021 at 9:40 PM, Naberius said:

We also have a playdate lined up with a woman we play with from time to time coming from out of town to stay the night with us. Usually we get a hotel for a night, but we have the house to ourselves this weekend and will be hosting at home. The wife has suggested having her park away from the house and having me go and pick her up from there so we can "sneak her in the back", but that just seems sketchy to me.
 

 

My apologies to the other posters in this thread, but I'm short on time right now and have not read every post. I've read some, but have not seen the following addressed.

 

You are very fortunate to have found a unicorn; a single woman to come play with you. Such a person deserves respect. Sneaking her in in such a manner is very disrespectful. I'm not a woman, but if I were in her shoes I'd feel like I'd stepped back into high school and was sneaking out a bedroom window to go to a party or something. No. Just no. Do NOT do this. Treat her with respect, bring her in through the front door, both literally and figuratively.

 

Anyone can have a friend or family member from out of town come in for a weekend. This is quite normal. No more explanation is needed than that. This woman is a friend, and she's coming in from out of town. It is the truth. What all of you do together while she is at your house is nobody else's business.

 

[GoldCoCouple 4,065]

It's only suspicious if you MAKE it look suspicious. Sneaking someone in and out will become a much bigger thing if someone else sees you sneaking them in or out...because you are being sneaky. The assumption is that you are trying to hide whatever you are doing from your partner, and not the neighbors which makes it much more...interesting and something to gossip about.

 

Finding a single woman that is willing to play with you (in case you didn't already know) is called a unicorn...because finding a unicorn is usually easier than finding a single woman that is a swinger. They are to be CHERISHED and treated like the goddess they are, not hidden and treated like something you are ashamed of. Treat her bad and she will find another couple that will treat her right (feel free to give her our number and email ? ). If you treat having her spending the night like they are just a friend or relative spending the night, then there is nothing suspicious to see. Most people won't even ask as long as you don't make it look out of the ordinary.

 

Short version: quit overthinking this and let us know how things went. Have fun!