Softswap husband needs some advice

[Escargogo2 11]

My wife and I starting playing unexpectedly with some close friends who are a couple about 4 years ago. It was a random thing that happened one night. After the initial encounter I sat my wife down and discussed rules, expectations, dynamic, etc. We agreed we would be soft swap, anything was ok except we only fuck each other and only play with both present. I suggested we discuss what we talked about with the other couple. My wife didn't want to do that. She was ok with us being aware and having our rules. I reluctantly agreed.

 

Many encounters later all is good. The dynamic has been when the wives are ready to play we play. I've wanted to be a little more proactive and actually plan play dates, figuring the anticipation would be great, we could have some sexy discussion, and we could communicate more openly with the other couple. I've always been shit down saying the spontaneous nature was working fine. 

 

This last weekend we got together and I found myself with the other wife straddling me asking if she could fuck me. My wife chimed in and said it was ok if she could fuck the other husband. I said no, nope, no we have rules and this breaks them. We had discussed that rules can change but not in the heat of the moment. I know without a doubt my wife does not want me fucking anyone else, and she definitely does not want to fuck the other husband. She's fine playing with him but not all the way. I knew she would regret it. We moved on and had a good night. The next morning my wife was so appreciative of me sticking to the rules. The other couple though were confused. I had to explain to the other wife we have rules. She was cool with that, but maybe my wife and I should revisit the rules. 

 

I asked my wife if she wanted to augment the rules. She said no she was good. We are strictly soft swap. I'm cool with that.  I asked to have an open discussion with the other couple. I asked both my wife and the other wife. They said they wanted to keep it like it was. The ladies initiate, guys follow suit. I suggested that we plan more it could be fun and open more communication, more fun  I was shot down again. I was told to not overthink things. That everything is fine. 

 

Am I overthinking things? Am I always going to be the rules enforcer? How do I work at more planning because that's something I want with out sounding crazy and over thinking? 

[cplnuswing 4,712]

First off, welcome to the community!

 

If there was a mistake made here, I think it was early on when you two didn't communicate well with the other couple what your rules and boundaries were. That almost guaranteed some heat of the moment issues and potential failure somewhere down the road. But, all's well that ends well, and it doesn't sound like anything blew up because of that, it (thankfully) all sort of worked itself out on it's own.  Still, in the future, I recommend more communication early on between all parties involved.

 

I'm not quite as confident as you are that she would have regretted the full swap. In the cold light of day, maybe yes. In the heat of the moment, I don't think you all have heard the last of that issue.  Not saying you should relent because any one person should always hold veto power over anything when it comes to rules and boundaries. But, when it comes to some leaning toward full swap, you are outnumbered 3 to 1, at least when things are hot and heavy. This may become an issue with this couple eventually as you all find you aren't syncing up as well as you once did when it comes to your swinging style.

 

I'm picking up on some resentment on the planned vs spontaneous issue. Maybe we are missing some info here?  You say you are close friends.  How often do you all get together? Of those times, how often is play involved? I suspect what may be going on here is they see this more as friends, then swingers.  With the history you all have now, you have come to see it more as swingers who are friends.  If that makes any sense...  If you enjoy their company as just friends, then I would count my blessings it has evolved to a friends with benefits situation that evidently all are enjoying, and just leave it at that without trying to direct it somewhere else.

[Escargogo2 11]

On 9/21/2021 at 6:08 PM, cplnuswing said:

First off, welcome to the community!

 

If there was a mistake made here, I think it was early on when you two didn't communicate well with the other couple what your rules and boundaries were. That almost guaranteed some heat of the moment issues and potential failure somewhere down the road. But, all's well that ends well, and it doesn't sound like anything blew up because of that, it (thankfully) all sort of worked itself out on it's own.  Still, in the future, I recommend more communication early on between all parties involved.

 

I'm not quite as confident as you are that she would have regretted the full swap. In the cold light of day, maybe yes. In the heat of the moment, I don't think you all have heard the last of that issue.  Not saying you should relent because any one person should always hold veto power over anything when it comes to rules and boundaries. But, when it comes to some leaning toward full swap, you are outnumbered 3 to 1, at least when things are hot and heavy. This may become an issue with this couple eventually as you all find you aren't syncing up as well as you once did when it comes to your swinging style.

 

I'm picking up on some resentment on the planned vs spontaneous issue. Maybe we are missing some info here?  You say you are close friends.  How often do you all get together? Of those times, how often is play involved? I suspect what may be going on here is they see this more as friends, then swingers.  With the history you all have now, you have come to see it more as swingers who are friends.  If that makes any sense...  If you enjoy their company as just friends, then I would count my blessings it has evolved to a friends with benefits situation that evidently all are enjoying, and just leave it at that without trying to direct it somewhere else.

First off. Thank you! Great to be here. Second....YES! You nailed it. That's the disconnect I am seeing, feeling. We get together 2 to 3 times a week as friends, as families with our kids. The play time for us is once a month, sometimes we go a couple months. It's been way more lately. 

So my background. This is my second marriage. My first marriage we discussed swinging, and figured we would get to it one day. Then life, other issues, incompatibility, just a whole host of things, it didn't work out. I had however done my homework on the LS I knew what had to be in place. Communication, rules, boundaries, more communication, more communication. I read boards still and listen to a few podcasts. Which is why after suddenly I find us unplanned playing with our friends, I made my wife and I step back and establish rules. 

Thats the disconnect. I'm seeing it as soft swap swinger life style. My wife, and the other couple see it as, good friends, with benefits. Different viewpoints. How on earth did I miss that? I guess that's what I was trying to do is direct things to a dare I say more traditional swinger arrangement. Well I need to knock that shit off. 

As far as going full swap. I agree, it's going to come up again. I'll pull the brakes again. However, my wife and I did discuss full swap maybe one day, just not with this couple. So maybe I enjoy what we have going here and keep talking about it. Suggest we find a couple we would feel comfortable with. Go from there. 

Seriously, thank you. It's all so clear now. I'm way off here. 

[GoldCoCouple 4,062]

Just to toss in my $.02. For stepping into this unexpected and unprepared, you have done just about everything right! Setting up rules and boundaries and especially not changing the rules in the heat of a sexual situation (even when it seemed like your wife wanted to change them). Huzzah! Not communicating that info to the other couple is probably your only 'miss' here, but it sounds like the wife is behind that. However, that doesn't keep you from casually talking to the other husband on the side, you know, just two guys talking about...things, so he has an idea as to what is going on and where things are headed. That way it's not all on your head to keep things reined in. We personally think that swinging with friends can be dangerous if the other couple has any problems, but it sounds like things have worked out just fine for you so far...quit overthinking things and just enjoy the experience within the limits you currently have.

 

Quote

I'm seeing it as soft swap swinger life style. My wife, and the other couple see it as, good friends, with benefits.

We don't see the difference. We once have had a relationship with another couple that we originally called friends...with benefits (and still do with the couple we are 'dating' now) even though that relationship was just limited to soft swap. One day I talked with the other husband and let them know if they wanted to go further, we were game, but his wife didn't want to cross that line and so we continued how things were. I don't see the difference between the two 'styles' (they are whatever you decide to make them). Maybe it's time for you to ask your wife if she is interested in looking for another couple to supplement this couple where things could go further. See what she wants to do and go from there.

 

Quote

It's all so clear now. I'm way off here.

But you still need to be able to ask questions without judgement. That's why we are all here. Keep up the good work!

[Escargogo2 11]

1 hour ago, GoldCoCouple said:

Just to toss in my $.02. For stepping into this unexpected and unprepared, you have done just about everything right! Setting up rules and boundaries and especially not changing the rules in the heat of a sexual situation (even when it seemed like your wife wanted to change them). Huzzah! Not communicating that info to the other couple is probably your only 'miss' here, but it sounds like the wife is behind that. However, that doesn't keep you from casually talking to the other husband on the side, you know, just two guys talking about...things, so he has an idea as to what is going on and where things are headed. That way it's not all on your head to keep things reined in. We personally think that swinging with friends can be dangerous if the other couple has any problems, but it sounds like things have worked out just fine for you so far...quit overthinking things and just enjoy the experience within the limits you currently have.

 

We don't see the difference. We once have had a relationship with another couple that we originally called friends...with benefits (and still do with the couple we are 'dating' now) even though that relationship was just limited to soft swap. One day I talked with the other husband and let them know if they wanted to go further, we were game, but his wife didn't want to cross that line and so we continued how things were. I don't see the difference between the two 'styles' (they are whatever you decide to make them). Maybe it's time for you to ask your wife if she is interested in looking for another couple to supplement this couple where things could go further. See what she wants to do and go from there.

 

But you still need to be able to ask questions without judgement. That's why we are all here. Keep up the good work!

Thanks for the kind words. I do think discussing another couple is the n the cards here. I think us being good friends first is why there was a yes,yes, but still no moment here. 

A couple with a husband we are comfortable with, she is really truly attracted to and no past years of friendship history would be more acceptable. I agree, the move from soft swap to full at this point is very much a possibility, we need to do it right with the right people. 

[enhancer 1,581]

Personally I don’t think that you are overthinking things!  Communication is extremely important to us when it comes to lifestyle activity and well relationships in general.  Planning things ahead can also lead to some extremely exciting times with some great buildup time before hand. Not to say things should be scripted and play by play.  With planning personal grooming and proper cleaning will be more likely which is always a plus.

 

It sounds like the arrangement the four of you have is working for everyone and no one, but yourself really wants to talk about it!  I think clarification on how far you all want to go with it would be a positive thing and maybe improve the chances of things not going south in the heat of the moment,  but different strokes for different folks as they say.

 

I will suggest that if you guys decide to expand on this and meet new people that you do communicate with them better though!  Rules and restrictions are a good thing to know ahead of time to make the experience for everyone a better one and nothing should be taken for granted.  Most people should know it is not okay to do things like stick something in someone’s ass or cum all over someone’s face without them first saying yes I like that kind of thing, but you know if someone communicate’s before hand that those things are a no way awkward not cool situations can be avoided.  

 

In our experience couples that don’t have really awesome communication with each other and communicate well with us as well end up being  an awkward unsatisfying night.  We can respect that everyone has different wants and limits, but we sure would like to know them going in.  If our desires are not the same we can decide not to be put in an uncomfortable situation.  

 

For us it is pretty easy!  The only rule we have with each other is that we only ever do this as a shared experience with both of us there.  Other then that it is only our individual rules that come into play.  There are things that we as individual people just are not into.  We make those things clear before play time and like when others do too.  

 

The couples we have known in this lifestyle that have crashed and burned on their relationship together are the ones who do not have complete open communication with each other.  The same people that would change their minds on their rules mid play.  If you are going to change your mind on your rules do it before playtime and really be on the same page.  If you can do that then fun will be had by all. 

[Escargogo2 11]

7 hours ago, enhancer said:

Personally I don’t think that you are overthinking things!  Communication is extremely important to us when it comes to lifestyle activity and well relationships in general.  Planning things ahead can also lead to some extremely exciting times with some great buildup time before hand. Not to say things should be scripted and play by play.  With planning personal grooming and proper cleaning will be more likely which is always a plus.

 

It sounds like the arrangement the four of you have is working for everyone and no one, but yourself really wants to talk about it!  I think clarification on how far you all want to go with it would be a positive thing and maybe improve the chances of things not going south in the heat of the moment,  but different strokes for different folks as they say.

 

I will suggest that if you guys decide to expand on this and meet new people that you do communicate with them better though!  Rules and restrictions are a good thing to know ahead of time to make the experience for everyone a better one and nothing should be taken for granted.  Most people should know it is not okay to do things like stick something in someone’s ass or cum all over someone’s face without them first saying yes I like that kind of thing, but you know if someone communicate’s before hand that those things are a no way awkward not cool situations can be avoided.  

 

In our experience couples that don’t have really awesome communication with each other and communicate well with us as well end up being  an awkward unsatisfying night.  We can respect that everyone has different wants and limits, but we sure would like to know them going in.  If our desires are not the same we can decide not to be put in an uncomfortable situation.  

 

For us it is pretty easy!  The only rule we have with each other is that we only ever do this as a shared experience with both of us there.  Other then that it is only our individual rules that come into play.  There are things that we as individual people just are not into.  We make those things clear before play time and like when others do too.  

 

The couples we have known in this lifestyle that have crashed and burned on their relationship together are the ones who do not have complete open communication with each other.  The same people that would change their minds on their rules mid play.  If you are going to change your mind on your rules do it before playtime and really be on the same page.  If you can do that then fun will be had by all. 

That is my ultimate goal. Fun by all, no one crashing and burning here. I am sooooo glad I was able to keep my cool and enforce the rules. Another weekend is coming and I see lots of opportunities to play this weekend. We will see how it goes with everyone in the loop finally. I'm going to work with the other couple when I can to communicate more with them. More talks with my wife about communicating more with the other couple, and maybe some talks about a new couple. 

Thanks for the awesome words guys. 

[Fundamental Law 2,877]

This is an excellent thread. We have  little to add, but perhaps these few thoughts might support your efforts to think, to speak, to listen, and to be secure in the common ground you reach. 

 

1. You have done well to demand -- of yourself and of the others--respect for the boundaries that you establish. Those boundaries arise from values that you and your wife share, and respecting those boundaries is not just a matter of mutual respect. It is a matter of integrity. Integrity is the one thing no one can take from you. It can only be given away. 

 

2. Life (and, by extension, the lifestyle) is a journey. Routes change. Boundaries can also change--in either direction. Discussing boundaries is important,  and the two of you have clearly identified the importance of those discussions. Changing boundaries is not a compromise of integrity provided that your core values are respected. 

 

3. The journey(s) look(s) different depending on whether you are looking ahead, experiencing the moment, or looking back. In vanilla life, there are all sorts of things that happen that were unanticipated, that may have great weight in the moment, and yet in the "rear-view mirror" take on quite different character. Think, for a moment, about a disrupted travel plan (airplane delay, flat tire, etc.) and how problematic that seemed at the time, but a month later ... how do you recall and see that event? Think also for a moment about the unexpected find of a great restaurant, or a movie that turned out much better than expected, and especially those with whom you shared the experience. How do you recall that unexpected pleasantness? Perturbations from what is expected have their own asymmetries--what is recalled positively and what is recalled negatively are quite different. 

 

4. Think for a moment about regret as a concept. When you hear others express regret (about anything), what do you hear? When you have regret, what do you feel -- and is it different from what you communicate?  (We hear these issues frequently in our professional roles. )  What, precisely, does the phrase "no regrets" mean to you (plural) and especially for each other? 

Edited September 23, 2021 by Fundamental Law

[Escargogo2 11]

On 9/23/2021 at 12:42 PM, Fundamental Law said:

This is an excellent thread. We have  little to add, but perhaps these few thoughts might support your efforts to think, to speak, to listen, and to be secure in the common ground you reach. 

 

1. You have done well to demand -- of yourself and of the others--respect for the boundaries that you establish. Those boundaries arise from values that you and your wife share, and respecting those boundaries is not just a matter of mutual respect. It is a matter of integrity. Integrity is the one thing no one can take from you. It can only be given away. 

 

2. Life (and, by extension, the lifestyle) is a journey. Routes change. Boundaries can also change--in either direction. Discussing boundaries is important,  and the two of you have clearly identified the importance of those discussions. Changing boundaries is not a compromise of integrity provided that your core values are respected. 

 

3. The journey(s) look(s) different depending on whether you are looking ahead, experiencing the moment, or looking back. In vanilla life, there are all sorts of things that happen that were unanticipated, that may have great weight in the moment, and yet in the "rear-view mirror" take on quite different character. Think, for a moment, about a disrupted travel plan (airplane delay, flat tire, etc.) and how problematic that seemed at the time, but a month later ... how do you recall and see that event? Think also for a moment about the unexpected find of a great restaurant, or a movie that turned out much better than expected, and especially those with whom you shared the experience. How do you recall that unexpected pleasantness? Perturbations from what is expected have their own asymmetries--what is recalled positively and what is recalled negatively are quite different. 

 

4. Think for a moment about regret as a concept. When you hear others express regret (about anything), what do you hear? When you have regret, what do you feel -- and is it different from what you communicate?  (We hear these issues frequently in our professional roles. )  What, precisely, does the phrase "no regrets" mean to you (plural) and especially for each other? 

Thanks for the EXCELLENT feedback. This is also very useful, and helpful.

 

Well my wife and I have been talking all week. We had somewhat a of a breakthrough actually. My wife had a good conversation with the other wife which gave my wife an idea of where the other wife is emotionally and practically with swinging. It opened my wife's eyes and really put her at ease about a few things. 

So much that she told me last night after having such a good conversation with the other wife she would actually be ok if I fucked her. However, I know that won't happen because like I said she's not attracted to the other husband enough to make it a full swap for everyone. So we are sticking to our rules. Best thing is. Our communication has reached a whole other level this week. It was always good, but this week even better. I also amended one of our rules, because I felt strongly about doing so. One of our rules. Is we only play together. Last night I amended it to. My wife can play alone with the other wife only. There have been a few trips, and girls nights where I know those two would have loved to play. So I opened that door. I realized, that really doesn't bother me and if it could increase her enjoyment, and show the trust I have why not? 

 

Very productive week. Thanks folks.

[enhancer 1,581]

Great to hear your communication has opened up!  It will make everything else a lot smoother for everyone.

[TnA83 299]

1 hour ago, Escargogo2 said:

Last night I amended it to. My wife can play alone with the other wife only. There have been a few trips, and girls nights where I know those two would have loved to play. So I opened that door.

That's hot!

[couplers 4,507]

19 hours ago, Escargogo2 said:

My wife can play alone with the other wife only.

It's good that you have your rules and are sticking to them.  I may be wrong, but even among non-swinger, monogamous couples I think most husband wouldn't be troubled (surprised maybe) with his wife playing with another woman.  Guys aren't threatened by that, they like it.

[Escargogo2 11]

22 hours ago, couplers said:

It's good that you have your rules and are sticking to them.  I may be wrong, but even among non-swinger, monogamous couples I think most husband wouldn't be troubled (surprised maybe) with his wife playing with another woman.  Guys aren't threatened by that, they like it.

Pretty much. I also said I need all the details if it happens. 

 

You guys rock so much. 

[KatrinaandDriverX 98]

1. It's good to have rules and even better that you stuck with them in the heat of the moment.

 

2. Get yours3elf to a place where you BOTH want to fuck the other couple

 

3. Report back