Trouble in Tulum, Mexico

[njbm 2,868]

Some innocent bystanders were killed in a drug cartel shootout the other day in Tulum, Mexico. This city is in the state of Quintana Roo, the same state as one of our favorite lifestyle resorts, Desire.

 

Apparently, there is an uptick in drug cartel violence in the Yucatan peninsula. Keep an eye on this. We last went to Desire in 2014. Things seemed secure on their campuses. 

[EastInWest 1,524]

That's terrible. Beautiful area that used to be relatively safe to leave resorts as long as you paid attention to where you were walking.

[GoldCoCouple 4,065]

We've wanted to go back to Desire RM since we left the last time, but have been concerned about the cartel activity. One of these days we will return, but not until we feel that it is 'safe'. We both feel once we arrive at Desire, we have nothing to worry about, but getting there and back to the airport is the real problem (especially with Americans being singled out for kidnapping/robbery).

[cplnuswing 4,713]

We've not been to the resorts but would like to some day.  Sadly, these issues are a big part of what has kept us away.  Hopefully better days ahead and that will change sometime.  I never give much thought to gangster on gangster crime. It's always been with us and always will be.  Prohibition-era Chicago wasn't exactly a safe place either depending on what path in life you had chosen. 

 

When it starts spilling over to "civilians" though, I prefer to just keep a safe distance away.

 

To be fair, Mexico doesn't have a lock on that.  I've heard the same thing from people about resorts that aren't in Mexico too. Once you are on the resort you feel pretty much safe, the coming and going not so much.

[MrMrsswinger 202]

Yeah, we stopped going to Mexico a few years ago. As beautiful as some areas are, it just isn't worth the risk. The once "safe areas" aren't necessarily so any longer.

[PeterJ 940]

My sister has lived her entire adult life in Mexico, the last 40 years outside Guadalajara. Security was never great by US standards and over the past decade it’s become quite dangerous in the countryside outside major cities. The very wealthy maintain heavily-armed private security and kidnapping gangs learned that looking for the big score by kidnapping rich people often ended very badly for the kidnappers and their formerly living families. So the gangs turned to the sort of upper-middle-class families who can take the peso equivalent of a few thousand dollars out of the bank. The whole deal goes down in a few hours.

 

Because they don’t have private security — a few years ago my brother-in-law got shot by robbers at the business he owns — my sister and her family no longer travel between cities by car. Now they fly commercial. 
 

That said, I agree with other posters on this thread that American tourists staying at international-oriented resorts have little reason to be concerned about their security. And I would include the airport to resort transfers. Tourism is important to the economy and most of the resorts are owned by powerful interests. There’s no percentage in robbing or kidnapping foreign tourists, few of whom have much cash on them or easy access to ransom money . All that would accomplish would be to bring down the heat. Bad for business.

[njbm 2,868]

There was a shoot out yesterday between drug gangs at the Hyatt Riviera in Puerto Morelos, hometown of Desire. I don't think the cartel will break into Desire, but we used to walk along the beach to downtown Puerto Morelos. I don't think we would do that now. So sad that this beautiful country is in many places ruined by the drug trade.

[cplnuswing 4,713]

I saw that.  Sort of a downer to start the day with over your morning coffee   I feel for the vast majority of people who just want to live their lives in a safe and peaceful manner and people just wanting to get away to somewhere beautiful.

 

I don't know exactly what the answer is, other than the status quo isn't it.  Money corrupts, and the more money, the more it corrupts.  We are from the rural Midwest, and during Prohibition there were running gun battles on dusty county roads, broad daylight assassinations of rivals on Main Street, and so on. The stories you heard growing up are true, you can pull up old newspaper clippings about them.  Most of those gangs were made up of rural farm boys, at least at the lower levels.  On one hand is a lifetime of backbreaking work and drudgery and poverty, on the other is a fast and flashy life with an ocean of money out there to put in your pocket. Once those conditions exist, some are always going to make the latter choice.  Only difference is time and place...

[njbm 2,868]

The country of Colombia seems to have overcome its Medellin drug cartel nightmare. I am not informed enough to know how they accomplished it. Maybe Mexico can look into it. I fear that the Mexican government and police are involved in the cartel business. 

[Beetz 16]

The shooting happened shortly after we came back from Tulum, Mexico and we had actually visited 5th Ave. Where the shooting took place. 5th Ave was the only place we visited that was off the resort and not a planned excursion. From what I have read, the shooting took place between 2 cartel but tourists were caught in the crossfire and 2 died. I will say that our entire stay in Mexico, we never felt unsafe BUT we also planned ahead and communicated with resort staff on where to go and not go, we were back before dark and had the resort arrange transportation. Tulum is absolutely beautiful and amazing and we can not wait to go again. With all the cartel talk, we probably won't venture off the resort again until things cool down. I do know everywhere we went there were HEAVILY armed Police and Federali's just about everywhere, excursions and all. I'm talking AK-47, 50 cals, body armor, humvees, dogs, etc. When we landed in Mexico city, where we caught a connecting flight to Cancun, we were tod by a local not to leave the airport because it was not safe for gringos.  5th Ave was an amazing place full of shops, music and food and beauty. It's a shame what the cartel are doing.

[hkdilbert 182]

On 10/29/2021 at 2:36 AM, PeterJ said:

My sister has lived her entire adult life in Mexico, the last 40 years outside Guadalajara. Security was never great by US standards and over the past decade it’s become quite dangerous in the countryside outside major cities. The very wealthy maintain heavily-armed private security and kidnapping gangs learned that looking for the big score by kidnapping rich people often ended very badly for the kidnappers and their formerly living families. So the gangs turned to the sort of upper-middle-class families who can take the peso equivalent of a few thousand dollars out of the bank. The whole deal goes down in a few hours.

Guadalajara?  When I was there many years ago it felt like such a nice and peaceful place.  If I remember correctly there is (or was) a large American retirement community there.   How are they getting along?

 

As a now distant observer (we've just escaped China and are in transit to an island in the Philippines) it seems like so many great places are no longer fit to live in or visit.  Many of my old hometowns in California fit this description and they are far from the worst in the USA.   Hope some sanity and rule of law can return to the world soon.

[njbm 2,868]

Where is a good place now? Canada? The atmosphere in the US is troubling. 

[hkdilbert 182]

18 minutes ago, njbm said:

Where is a good place now? Canada? The atmosphere in the US is troubling. 

In our travels around the world (including living in many of these places) it seems like there is no perfect place.  Every place has its own list of pro's and con's associated with it.  It's a matter of looking at all of this and sorting out which compromises you are most comfortable taking.  Things like safety, government, affordability, taxation, weather, culture, being accepted into the community and others all go into the equation.  Our eventual choice is an island in the Philippines where my wife is from.   It's far from perfect but seems the best balance for us.  And you can't beat the combination of beaches, fresh fruits and fish and community!

[njbm 2,868]

2 hours ago, hkdilbert said:

In our travels around the world (including living in many of these places) it seems like there is no perfect place.  Every place has its own list of pro's and con's associated with it.  It's a matter of looking at all of this and sorting out which compromises you are most comfortable taking.  Things like safety, government, affordability, taxation, weather, culture, being accepted into the community and others all go into the equation.  Our eventual choice is an island in the Philippines where my wife is from.   It's far from perfect but seems the best balance for us.  And you can't beat the combination of beaches, fresh fruits and fish and community!

Enjoy it! Are there any swingers there?

[hkdilbert 182]

4 hours ago, njbm said:

Enjoy it! Are there any swingers there?

Not that I am aware of.   One of the compromises we made.   Guess we'll just have to see what we can do once we get fully settled in.  Hope we can find a small community in the lifestyle down that way, but if not, it's not a deal breaker.

[EastInWest 1,524]

21 hours ago, njbm said:

Where is a good place now? Canada? The atmosphere in the US is troubling. 

Depending on your interests, might be worth looking into some of the "Golden Visa"/residency-for-investment programs. Some have exorbitant price tags, but others have relatively low thresholds and the purchase price of your home can be used toward the total investment. 

[hkdilbert 182]

3 hours ago, EastInWest said:

Depending on your interests, might be worth looking into some of the "Golden Visa"/residency-for-investment programs. Some have exorbitant price tags, but others have relatively low thresholds and the purchase price of your home can be used toward the total investment. 

Costa Rica comes up often however it is my understanding that safety concerns are an issue there.   When we were looking into this a while back the destination that looked best for us was Portugal.  Have heard many good things recently.   Might be worth a look.

[PeterJ 940]

9 minutes ago, hkdilbert said:

Costa Rica comes up often however it is my understanding that safety concerns are an issue there.   When we were looking into this a while back the destination that looked best for us was Portugal.  Have heard many good things recently.   Might be worth a look.

I have close friends who have a small consultancy with clients spread across the globe. After a comprehensive investigation they concluded the best place for them would be Portugal.

[EastInWest 1,524]

3 minutes ago, hkdilbert said:

Costa Rica comes up often however it is my understanding that safety concerns are an issue there.   When we were looking into this a while back the destination that looked best for us was Portugal.  Have heard many good things recently.   Might be worth a look.

 

Yep, Portugal and Greece were the two I had in mind. Spain also has a program that, I believe, starts a little higher. Semi-retiring to Crete or Andalusia isn't a bad gig if you can get it.

[hkdilbert 182]

1 hour ago, EastInWest said:

 

Yep, Portugal and Greece were the two I had in mind. Spain also has a program that, I believe, starts a little higher. Semi-retiring to Crete or Andalusia isn't a bad gig if you can get it.

Be careful about Greece.   Many years ago they had regulations in place that prohibited foreigners from selling and taking capital out of the country.   I don't know if these are still in place, but worth checking into if you are serious about Greece.

[AndrewandAnn 360]

On 12/3/2021 at 6:55 PM, njbm said:

Where is a good place now? Canada? The atmosphere in the US is troubling. 

Australia is taking applications 😉 Lol...

[Aikibobby 51]

Is Desire the closest lifestyle resort in Mexico?  We live in Mississippi and would love to visit one day. 

[AndrewandAnn 360]

On 12/3/2021 at 7:19 PM, hkdilbert said:

In our travels around the world (including living in many of these places) it seems like there is no perfect place.  Every place has its own list of pro's and con's associated with it.  It's a matter of looking at all of this and sorting out which compromises you are most comfortable taking.  Things like safety, government, affordability, taxation, weather, culture, being accepted into the community and others all go into the equation.  Our eventual choice is an island in the Philippines where my wife is from.   It's far from perfect but seems the best balance for us.  And you can't beat the combination of beaches, fresh fruits and fish and community!

I agree with the notion that there is no perfect place. The goal, I think, is "perfect enough".

 

With your wife being Philippino, I can understand the draw to her home country. However, for most Americans, the idea of pulling up stakes and moving to a foreign country is simply too big a stretch.

 

Although my wife and I are both multi-lingual, and have spent plenty of time outside of the United States, we have no desire to abandon the freedoms, economic opportunities, comparative safety, security, and political stability, the United States affords its citizens. Frankly, people who think the atmosphere in the United States is worse than in other parts of the world have never spent any meaningful time outside of the borders. Their idealized fantasies of what life in a foreign country is like seldom hold up well when confronted with reality. 

 

We think a good compromise for us are the US Virgin Islands--namely, St John. We've spent a considerable amount of time in the Caribbean and enjoy the "island life", warts and all (and this would not be a year-round home.) The single biggest advantage is we would still be residents of the United States and afforded the same benefits of its citizenry with two important exceptions: First, the USVI have their own separate income tax structure that offers considerable advantages, particularly for businesses. Second, the USVI is a territory, not a state, so we would forgo our right to vote in general elections. That would be a bitter bill to swallow.

 

Anyway, next month we're heading to USVI for a couple of weeks to look at some properties and meet with some tax and immigration counselors who can better explain the ins and outs.

 

 

 

 

[njbm 2,868]

2 hours ago, Aikibobby said:

Is Desire the closest lifestyle resort in Mexico?  We live in Mississippi and would love to visit one day. 

Desire is not far from MS, but as discussed, we would not be comfortable going to that area now due to cartel shootouts. Not sure if it will get better or worse. 

[GoldCoCouple 4,065]

There are some L/S resorts in Florida and there still might be one or two in California, but when it comes to a true resort experience, they are all out of the U.S. Personally we think that Desire RM is the top of the list but with the problems in Mexico, we are hesitant to go there. Desire Pearl and Temptations are only a few miles away from Desire RM. There is also Hedo II in Jamaica but we haven't ever been there partially because it is not limited to 'couples only' (meaning single men can and will be there on the hunt).

[AndrewandAnn 360]

21 hours ago, Aikibobby said:

Is Desire the closest lifestyle resort in Mexico?  We live in Mississippi and would love to visit one day. 

Statistically speaking, Mexico is one of the most dangerous countries in the world. According to one crime index, Mexico only ranks behind Afghanistan and Guatemala as the third most dangerous country. How dangerous is Mexico? In the fifteen years between 2006 and 2021, more than 300,000 people have been murdered. For reference, that's roughly the population of Cincinnati, Ohio. Bear in mind, there have been tens of thousands of murders that have never been reported. People simply disappear, never to be seen again. While the cartels' primary business is related to the production and distribution of drugs, they also engage in every other heinous crime known to mankind--murder, kidnapping, human slavery, prostitution, extortion, robbery, systematic rape, and so on. Cartels often torture their victims in unspeakable ways before they die; ways that would make a person of ordinary sensibilities wretch. Most Americans cannot imagine that such a violent country exists in North America, immediately to our south. Yet, it does.

 

For most of Mexico's modern history, the violence was fueled by warring drug cartels and limited to smaller geographical areas in more remote places and to the major metropolitan areas like Mexico City (the most populous city in North America.) The tourist areas were mostly free from the kinds of violent crimes related to the drug wars. This was not due to any benevolence from the drug cartels. It was due to the fact that the drug cartels only cared about controlling the production facilities and transportation routes that allowed them to efficiently produce and move their drugs to the United States and elsewhere. The corrupt Mexican government was only too happy to take bribes and turn a blind eye to the activities of the drug cartels. Most of the Mexican government's police actions against the cartels were for show and had no effect on combating organized crime, nor were they really intended to.

 

That all changed about a decade ago when the Mexican government started to weed out its own corrupt actors and then launched a serious policing effort against the cartels. However, the cartels, with billions of dollars of cash and thousands of well trained, heavily armed killers at their disposal, are by some measures as powerful, if not more so, than both the local and federal governments. The cartels are striking back against the Mexican government where it hurts the most--the tourist trade.  Cancun, Los Cabos, the Mexican Riviera, etc. are all being dragged into the violent conflicts between the Mexican government vs. the cartels; one cartel vs. another. Acapulco, for instance, once a favorite tropical destination of the world's rich and famous, is now completely overrun with gang violence. The cartels kill indiscriminately. Innocent citizens and tourists are often gunned down along side other cartel members. Mexico's cartels are so bloodthirsty, one cartel leader blew up an entire aircraft of innocent passengers just to kill a rival drug lord.

 

It is painful for me to write all this. Ann and I took our first trip to Mexico back in the early 1980s. At that time, Mexico was largely a peaceful and tranquil place. Poor, for sure. But, mostly free of any serious crime. We traveled to its largely undeveloped/under-developed interior completely care-free. The threat of violence was the farthest thing from our minds. We holidayed in Mexico many, many times, and have some incredible memories.

 

Today? You couldn't get me to go to Mexico if you paid me. It is literally a country in the midst of a civil war.

 

 

Edited December 9, 2021 by AndrewandAnn

[AndrewandAnn 360]

You can read more about the situation in Mexico here: https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/mexicos-long-war-drugs-crime-and-cartels

[Aikibobby 51]

On 12/8/2021 at 4:25 PM, njbm said:

Desire is not far from MS, but as discussed, we would not be comfortable going to that area now due to cartel shootouts. Not sure if it will get better or worse. 

Thank you

[njbm 2,868]

10 hours ago, GoldCoCouple said:

There are some L/S resorts in Florida and there still might be one or two in California, but when it comes to a true resort experience, they are all out of the U.S. Personally we think that Desire RM is the top of the list but with the problems in Mexico, we are hesitant to go there. Desire Pearl and Temptations are only a few miles away from Desire RM. There is also Hedo II in Jamaica but we haven't ever been there partially because it is not limited to 'couples only' (meaning single men can and will be there on the hunt).

We did go to Hedo2 once. We did not find the single males to be a problem and we generally liked the resort, but the Desire resorts are a fair bit nicer. But we are not going back to Desire until we are confident that the cartel war is over. We used to love Club Orient, but returning Bliss cruisers told us that there was political unrest on the French side of St. Martin. Caliente in Florida?

[AndrewandAnn 360]

It is unfortunate just how ignorant... perhaps willfully naïve is a better description.... are Americans of the goings on in the world outside our borders, particularly our neighbors to the south. This thread has appropriately concentrated on Mexico's violence and crime. However, Mexico is just the tip of the iceberg.

 

Most Americans would be shocked to learn that Latin America and certain parts of the Caribbean comprise the most violent, dangerous regions on the planet. Latin America, with only 8% of the world's population, accounts for roughly one-third of ALL recorded violent crimes worldwide. What's even scarier about that statistic is that violent crimes in Latin America are notoriously underreported, meaning the actual rates of violent crimes are considerably higher. Just how much higher? Nobody knows for sure. But one estimate is that they are underreported by more than 40%. What we do know is 43 of the 50 most dangerous cities in the world reside in Latin America and the Caribbean.

 

However, the violent crime is not limited to the usual countries we all think of (i.e., El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras, Brazil, etc.) but includes many countries Americans mistakenly believe are comparatively safe. How many Americans would be stunned to learn, for instance, that Jamaica, St. Kitts, Belize, and even the Bahamas, are actually some of the countries with the highest murder rates in the world? The rate of murder in Jamaica, for example, is 56 per 100,000, making it the second most dangerous country only behind El Salvador. That's something you may want to consider before booking your next all-inclusive holiday in Negril, Ocho Rios, or Montego Bay.

 

Are there safe alternatives? Yes.

 

You don't have to leave the United States mainland to enjoy a sexy tropical holiday with your partner. Cypress Cove in Kissimmee, Florida is a solid go-to destination for those interested in exploring nudism. It's safe, clean, and well-managed. Note, this is not a swinger lifestyle resort per se. It is a resort devoted to the nudist lifestyle (including families) and overtly sexualized acts in public are not permitted.

 

Caliente in Land O'Lakes, Florida is another option. This is definitely a more lifestyle-friendly resort than Cypress Cove above. You're far more likely to meet and connect with other swingers here. The best way I can describe this resort is that it is a place in transition. It's trying hard to evolve into a genuine, higher-end resort. But, you'll be surrounded by evidence of its far more humble beginnings. Again, public sex is not allowed. However... the lines get kind of blurred from time to time.

 

Note that neither of the destinations above are anywhere near the level of luxury of a true five-star lifestyle resort. If that's what you're really looking for, you're not going to find it on the United States mainland.

 

The Poconos offer some adult-themed resorts that we understand are somewhat life-style friendly. Having never traveled there, we wouldn't know. Somebody else will have to offer their impressions. What I understand is these resorts are... tired... and have not had much investment to modernize the properties

 

Or, just forgo the resort experience and head directly to one of southern Florida's nude beaches. If being in the buff and enjoying the sun and surf is your thing, a nude beach is a great way to unwind in a care-free, clothes-free atmosphere. Again, these are not places for public sex. When you're feeling frisky, take it back to your hotel room. Florida law enforcement does not have a sense of humor about public sex.

 

Wanting to stay in the United States but willing to depart the mainland? Put St. John, USVI on your map. While St. John is a comparatively conservative island culture, it boasts some of the most amazing, unspoiled flora and fauna in the entire Caribbean. The majority of the island is a National Park. While nude sunbathing is not officially sanctioned, it does happen. Salomon Beach, only accessible by boat or by a hike from another nearby bay, is St. John's official unofficial spot for nude sunbathing. Or, at least it was. Friends tell us in recent times there has been an increased police presence at the beach and nudists are asked to don clothes or face fines. We'll know more when return there in a few weeks.

 

Wanting something more exotic and willing to travel long distances? Bali is a great destination with some exquisite nudist resort options. However, you had better be really committed to going there. Getting to Indonesia requires roughly 24 hours of continuous travel and the resorts are located another 2+ hours away from the airport. It is worth it? Yes, once. Would we return? No. Bali is remarkable and was truly one of the most exotic locations we've ever experienced. Yet we cannot justify the misery of traveling that far to experience something that we can approximate in our backyard.

 

 

 

 

Edited December 10, 2021 by AndrewandAnn

[PeterJ 940]

In an earlier comment on this thread I suggested that Mexico’s spate of drug-gang violence posed little for no threat to those vacationing at popular tourist sites. Apparently that is changing., per this current article in the Washington Post;

 

"Tourist drug demand is bringing cartel violence to Cancun, Tulum and the Mexican Riviera" 

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2021/12/24/mexico-cancun-tourism-cartel-violence/

[njbm 2,868]

I read that article. I, too, thought it was a problem among the cartels. But apparently the cartels are competing to supply the mostly American tourists with drugs. 

[EastInWest 1,524]

On 12/25/2021 at 4:09 PM, njbm said:

I read that article. I, too, thought it was a problem among the cartels. But apparently the cartels are competing to supply the mostly American tourists with drugs. 

I'm guessing it still usually is - scaring off the customers is bad for everyone - but that it's not at all unheard of for tourists to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. This type of unintentional gang killing of tourists has happened  over the years in the Caribbean, as well.

 

With that said, I'm actually a bit surprised on the earlier post about it being presumptively dangerous outside the United States and to choose an option with U.S. jurisdiction. The USVI's crime situation is horrific, even by Caribbean standards. St. John has long been one of the more stable islands for tourists, but still. By comparison, the BVI is quite safe overall.

 

Of course, that could all change at any time, and perceptions of crime are relative to the observer. We all like to think of our own home as safe, and we've usually made a significant investment in it. Tourists are often visiting places in the Caribbean and Latin America that they would never live precisely because they are cheap. If we traveled the same way within the United States, many of us would be harmed here, too. Everybody wants a good deal when it's time for palm trees, but nobody who visits Chicago tries to save a buck by booking a hotel in Englewood. There's a human cost implied in a lot of those package deals, unfortunately.

Edited December 27, 2021 by EastInWest