When you've fucked up your relationship by wanting to swing?

[Tarnished Halo 16]

Hello Everyone,

My husband and I were talking about some of the subjects on the swingersboard, and he asked me "what do you do when you've fucked up your relationship by wanting to swing? To further complicate the problem, when you STILL want to swing? How do you start over?

 

I then explained my thoughts on this, and I encourage you all to add your thoughts. This is what happens when one (either the husband or the wife) gets ahead of the other. IF you both take the necessary steps to reassure the other that NO...THERE ISN'T ANYTHING WRONG WITH YOU (or whatever the issue may be), and to discover this together, then you have a much better chance of either determining whether this is something that your relationship could either benefit from, or not. I obviously did not have this realtionship advantage.

 

My advice to him was to slow down. Way down. We have to now talk about all the things that he had thought about just in regards to himself (while keeping me out of the loop so to speak), and to determine what kind of "swinging" our relationship, should it come to that decision that WE make.

 

I believe that he feels the women in the lifestyle have the power to make the decisions, and the men simply have to either agree, or they don't get to swing. He knows that I am slower and would therefore would or could take advantage by just saying no, I don't want to do that, or I don't want HIM to do that. He feels he has no power of veto, or of making the decisions. Unfortunately, I think that the person, regardless of the gender, who is either more cautious, or going at a slower pace unavoidably is the one to determine at what speed the couple will go.

 

I also explained to him about my discovery about kissing. Previously, I could not have told him the "why" I didn't want him kissing someone else, but have since figured out and explained to him I wasn't just saying NO because I could control him. It seemed a tad more acceptable that even though my reasons were "goofy", I could articulate them to him instead of him just thinking that I was controlling the situation by forbidding something he saw as a natural reaction when "fucking". Cheesh.

 

We may never (and that might be appropriate for us) swing. There are others out there that are swinging and shouldn't and still more who would like to but either can't (due to objections), or won't. These people may or not be able to state with any clarity the "why" of their situations, but for those who are swinging, could you tap into your wealth of experience, and perhaps suggest ways to me that we may "begin again"? I obviously subscribe to the theory, that a bell cannot be unrung, but surely there are measures that he could see were effective, and at the same time be of some help to those whose realtionships have crashed and burned.

 

I have suggested that he read the various threads, but frequently, he is angered by suggestions that he isn't doing it for the "right" reasons, and feels that some swingers feel morally superior to him. I personally have no qualms about learning from someone who has more experience than I. You are all a font of wisdom for me, and I have gained more insight from your comments than I could begin to acknowledge.

 

Thank you all.

Tarnished.

[fredandwilma200 16]

I don't think of it as a control issue either! I have had jealous issues and would very much like to swing! I know in my heart that My husband would never leave me...my head feels different (if that makes sense). I think about my husband being with another lady and get turned on but at the same time I get a little jealous...so we are "starting over" which is hard for both of us.

 

If it was control there would be no give...which you have to give some! I believe it is a comfort issue! If something doesn't make me feel comfortable then I shouldn't do it...and won't ...but I won't say "we can't do it" I will say...we will see how things go and then we will see...if you think that it isn't fair let's talk about it!

 

If your husband is anything like mine...he just walks away from the situation because he doesn't want to talk about it because he is (in my opinion) afraid that I will say forget it all together! Which shouldn't be the worry...if he wants something have him ask...if he doesn't have him tell you! I know that is better said than done...because I'm still trying to tell my husband that same thing but he won't listen so...GOOD LUCK! It's like beating your head against the wall...head bang

[SexhoundDog 18]

Tarnished,

 

First let me say that I'm not a swinger, although I'd love to have my wife want to be and therefore I would. You've hashed this out enough with your hubby and I believe laid all the cards on the table.

 

Now the main reason I identified myself as a non-swinger is because of the comment you made about your husband getting angry about anybody in these threads feeling "morally superior" to him or questioning his reasons for wanting to swing.

 

You can quote me to him on this:

 

"You just don't get it, do you fella?"

 

If he really got it, he'd be miles ahead of where he is in getting you to consider it! Instead of angering you or making you feel like there is something wrong with YOU, he really ought to be making you feel special and loved and that he'd like to try it for you as well as him.

 

It's kind of like the old saying "If Momma ain't happy, there ain't nobody happy." He needs to figure this out and quit beating up on you mentally or it simply isn't gonna happen.

[Alura 2,775]

Now, I'm really confused, Tarnished.

 

In the past your posts have given me the impression that you were very much opposed to swinging. I vaguely remember your having said that you were miffed that he would even think of suggesting it?

 

Are y'all now discussing the possibility of thinking about considering the lifestyle? If so, what has brought y'all to this point?

 

If you feel your marriage has been "fucked up" by discussing swinging, I wonder if your communication has changed along with it, and do you feel it is better or worse than before your husband brought up the subject?

 

In my opinion, there is only one way for a couple to "start over." You must agree to forget the past and work on the future. You must also decide if the future may include talking about swinging or if it is to be a taboo subject.

 

I'll tell you this, Lady. You're confusing, but you are a very interesting person.

[JustAskJulie 2,595]

so I take it you have been talking your head off to him and he is FINALLY starting to realize that he has pushed too hard and that the only way he will ever get what he wants is if he backs off a bit.

 

I think someone else made this comment already. The only way to start over is to completely back off teh swinging thing and start over completely concentrating on your relationship together. Get him into counseling WITH you and get him to show you just how much he really does care about you and your relatinship.... so much that he too is willing to make some sacrifices. Once that happens based on everything else we have read from you, I really think that you might open up to other ideas.

[GirlieZ 15]

I tend to be very quiet and shy (until you get to know me). I would say "no" before I would think about it and say "yes".

 

As confusing as it might be sometimes that "no" can be controlling, because you do not want to see your relationship harmed.

 

Its important to be able to say no without fear of having to deal with an irate spouse or partner. With that "no" comes responsibility. You and your partner have to be willing to talk in earnest about your reservations, get to the bottom of them. You have to figure out what turns you on...or off whatever the case may be. I've found that by talking about these things I've learned a lot about myself.

 

Zgirl (I'll add more later, right now I'm gonna go do some nasty things)

[Elusive BiFem 70]

Quote

Originally posted by Alura

In my opinion, there is only one way for a couple to "start over." You must agree to forget the past and work on the future. You must also decide if the future may include talking about swinging or if it is to be a taboo subject.

 

OK, Mr. Alura...I generally find you and Mrs. Alura rather wise about most things. So...can you please explain how a couple agrees to "forget the past and work on the future?" That's a lesson I think many of us could benefit from.

[Tarnished Halo 16]

I do apologize to those who seem confused by me. I don't think that our relationship has been "fucked" up, he does. He takes responsibility for the mistakes that he has made and some of the decisions that have led us to this point in our lives, as have I. I have stated before that I was "miffed" that he would even consider it, but that was in the beginning. I have learned a lot of things about him and myself that I would have never dreamt possible. I DO find swinging a very confusing thing for me to understand and am still finding what my "comfort zone" is. Like I explained with kissing, at first it was just don't do it, but I couldn't explain the "why" part. I do understand the mechanisms going on with me now. That isn't to say that we will never kiss, but going in, it's not going to be something that I would be willing to do.

 

Yes, I have talked my head off to him, and I'm sure that he feels that I've talked HIS head off too. Yesterday we agreed to have these talks in smaller increments, and not to try to resolve anything in a marathon session. We both tend to start getting antsy when we are discussing anything that could be an emotional breakdown as neither of us want to argue.

 

He's tried to explain to me in various ways the allure of swinging. I don't really get it. What I do get is that it is something that he feels we could do without endangering our relationship, which is my primary concern. I WILL NOT do anything knowingly that is going to undermine us. The funny thing is the arguing about it has had a detrimental effect of us. I had resolved not to argue which was really kind of pointless, and to try to discover what was going on with him. At first when he brought this up 20 years ago, if we would have talked (we both bear the burden of this mistake) about his thoughts and my horrified reaction to them, we wouldn't be doing this now.

 

I have told him and am stating to you that I would love to see the benefits that swinging entail. Is is possible to have these without swinging? I don't know. I do know that I love my husband, and really like our relationship. This is the ONLY area that we have any discomfort talking about. For my part, I interpreted his desire to swing as a negative reflection on his happiness with me, and for quite a while could only compare myself to the women that he wanted to be with. While I am still not entirely comfortable with saying that, I do understand that he has separated his feelings for me and his desires for others. I don't know that I can do that, but I see not only from him that you too do that, and perhaps I can also at some point.

 

Hope this makes sense.

[GirlieZ 15]

I love my husband...and he is so wonderful that I am compelled to share him. He has a tendency to make everyone feel good...He has a great personality. I love watching him with another woman. This fills my need to share.

 

 

Years ago~~when it was first brought up~~I thought "no way~~I don't think its for me". I thought that this was a way for my husband to go out and have some fun without any consequences. My husband backed off--didn't say anything more. However, I was very bisexual-I craved a woman to touch and taste. I had very vivid dreams about being with a woman. Everytime my husband and I talked about it, saw two women together in a porno, I became so turned on that I could hardly contain myself. I started thinking "Maybe I would enjoy being with another woman" An evolution started. I began opening my mind up to new ideas and realizing that not only did I want to be with other women--that I wanted to be with other men as well. Mind you--I've only been with another man a few times. As of late we have been exploring more, because we have FINALLY found a couple to play with.

 

Now all this fun did come with a few tears shed--a few spirited conversations, some misunderstandings. The most important thing that we did was communicate (which is what you are doing). If something bothered us, we'd talk about it right then and there, no waiting. We'd have pillow talk after sex, because its true that things can be said in the heat of passion, that are just meant for the spirit of the moment, not necessairly going to go out and do them.

 

My husband likes the lifestyle because he likes to see me get off with different people. He likes to think of his "good girl" being a really "bad girl". Its fun and I enjoy doing that for him.

 

I feel that its important that couples just entering this lifestyle know that it is inherently important to communicate constantly. Explore together--do kinky questionnaires--buy penthouse forum or Hustler Letters. Read them together--find out what gets you hott.

 

Tarnished, I believe that you said that you felt that swinging would be a negative reflection on your relationship. I have found swinging to be a posititve reflection of our relationship--its something wonderfully fun that we do together. We know that while my husband is doing some wonderfully hot things to one of our playmates and I am doing the same, we are going home together. Our confidence is seated in our never ending love for each other. While we are engaged in some act--all we have to do is lock eyes from across the room and KNOW what the other is feeling. If we had to we would never swing again--we don't want to--but its something that we would never do to hurt the other.

 

I hope that this makes sense.

 

Zgirl

[Rett 15]

Your husband asked you "what do you do when you've fucked up your relationship by wanting to swing?",

 

From your posts he has had this fantasy for about twenty years and it is something that you could never come to terms with either emotionally and/or morally- you believe it would go against your marriage vows for one thing. The husband is now putting more pressure on you trying to coerce you into swinging and it is quite naturally being resented. You truly love your husband but this issue has caused much distress in your marriage. Your husband does talk about the problems but really doesn't listen to you so you needed to go to a counselor by yourself to try to get somekind emotional support and understanding on how to deal with your marriage situation. The husband also is very locked into that what he believes and wants is most important and nobody else can change his opinions (he won't take anyone elses advice or even seek it) to the point where it almost broke up the marriage.

 

You have taken the only steps you could by reading and asking about swinging and seeking counseling alone. You have resented the hell out of his pushing with his desires but he just keeps pushing and proding. It's now gotten to the point where nothing seems to help except your giving in to him even though it remains an unresolved issue with you that is confusing and hard to understand. From starting out saying you probably would never give in to saying he didn't ask to have the desire to swing and is so far ahead of you ,so maybe it would be okay to concede to swinging . Sex might be allowed but no kissing yet everything is still confusing to understand and rightly so.

 

How do you salvage the relationship and start over. Well , you can't answer this without knowing yourself and your partner really well. If you feel insecure or are unhappy and feel bad it doesn't really matter if he loves you - there are problems that must be worked out. You must clarify what it is that you want in your moral convictions and relationship and then stand up for such.

 

Counseling can help to slow things down by making both of you listen to each other and hearing what each other believes , feels, and has to say rather than interpreting each others thoughts and hurt. It sounds as if a third party is necessary here since the husband only hears but does not really listen. With "both of you" involved a counselor will try to make both of you not just hear each other but listen and understand the problem and hurt that is being inflicted and see your partner more clearly. Once that step is taken , and only then, you can start trying to resolve the closer to home issues.

 

As you stated ,that if you give up your beliefs, you would change your name from "Tarnished" to "Rusted". That would be sad.

[BradAndJanet 70]

TH, I am so very happy that the two of you are talking and that we on the board have been able to provide you with information that has allowed you to express yourself more completely.

 

From where I sit, this is very good progress for y'all, so keep after it.

 

I'm sorry that your husband is feeling a bit 'beat up' by some of the comments here. He shouldn't take those personally; we don't really know him except in the context of this situation you've explained to us. Swingers generally have a strong reaction to those that are perceived as pressuring others, that's all it really is.

 

If you're comfortable with it, ask him to sign up and post a few times. We'd get to know him better, and vice versa. We all might learn something from that.

[tazzie_n_truck 17]

Gotta say that your doing the best thing by talking about it. But in our experience if there seems to be any insecurities in a couple it is a sign to us that they are not ready to get started in the lifestyle that they have things in their own relationship to work out first before getting started in swinging.

 

We can say, keep the lines of communication open and talk with each other. If you both talk and listen to each other, you may both realize that swinging could be very enjoyable for you, or you may both come to the conclusion that it's just not for you.

[Alura 2,775]

Quote

Originally posted by Elusive BiFem

OK, Mr. Alura...I generally find you and Mrs. Alura rather wise about most things. So...can you please explain how a couple agrees to "forget the past and work on the future?" That's a lesson I think many of us could benefit from.

 

 

Mr. Alura: You don't let a guy off easy, EBF. Explaining this will be much more difficult than thinking it was.

 

I have the impression that Tarnished and her husband have had quite a few emotional discussions (call them "arguments") about swinging over the past twenty years. The injured feelings from those events are what need to be "forgotten" (which is probably not entirely possible) or at least accepted as "in the past" and not germane to the future. So leave all the ugliness in the past, forgotten or not.

 

Working on the future really boils down to working hard at communicating thoughts, beliefs, feelings, opinions and, most importantly, a couple's love for each other. I think most swingers say "I love you" and kiss much more often than our vanilla friends, and I think that comes from the communication which is nice for a vanilla marriage but imperative for a swinging couple.

 

(I've posted the following thought more than a few times on this board and nobody has ever responded to it, so forgive me if I bore you.)

 

Mrs. Alura and I had known each other less than a week when we decided we wanted to stay together. Both of us realized that the feelings that damage a marriage are the ones that are never talked about but are allowed to fester and grow in our minds. We wanted to be sure we would never be afraid to talk to each other about any subject. We made an agreement at the time that we would never get angry at any question that was asked and that we would always answer it as completely and truthfully as possible.

 

In twenty-four years together we've never been afraid to talk about any subject and I can truthfully say we've never had a discussion in which either of us raised his voice or hand to each other. The thing most surprising to me is how easy it has been.

 

I think Tarnished and her husband are on the right track toward communication and probably toward swinging together. I think she would agree that their communication has improved immeasurably since they became involved with swinging, if only this board and it's members.

 

Her attitude has changed from one of "You people are all low-lifes and shouldn't be doing what y'all are doing" to "Wow! These folks seem to know what they are doing; and they are pretty nice people." In other words, she's opened up her mind in areas I think she's never dreamed of. I wish her husband would post. I'd be interested in his perspective.

 

Mrs. Alura: In order to "forget the past and work on the future" I feel that it is imperative to know/understand/agree that we humans are an evolutionary creature and what we may say/do/think today/last month/last year/ when we got married/ is not necessarily what we say/do/think/believe today. Our culture and our methods of communicating are bringing to our conscience, thoughts and ideas, at a rate almost impossible to assimilate. The "Tarnished Halo" couple is a perfect example. Here is a case of ideas changing, and a process of idea changing due to the internet.

 

What I think is most important here is that Mr. and Mrs. Tarnished Halo recognize that a change is taking place and to honor that change neither should say "But that's not what you said back when....." Move forward in the discussion and focus on the future and it's possibilities in conversation. Further, I think that it is important to realize that possibilities are being discussed here, not power trips.

 

A suggestion for creating healthy parameters for this type of conversation would be to have a chosen place (perhaps a restaurant and a date night) where this is expected to be the topic of conversation (where "swinging ideas" are shared and explored.) Another would be to have a "safe" place where it is understood that this will not be the topic of conversation. This way, anyone feeling threatened or overwhelmed can go and feel safe.

 

Also I think that it needs to be said that it is perfectly OK to say "That is interesting.....but I need time to think about and assimilate the idea before I can respond to it." And that time needs to be honored and not perceived as a control mechanism.

 

I feel that some couples are, perhaps, each feeling manipulated by the other to "see/do it my way" (in relation to Swinging in particular and oftentimes other topics in general) and until they agree that they won't use this (Swinging) arena for manipulation, the safety of the conversation will be questionable.

 

I believe that, since we are all taught to talk/communicate from the day we are born, we all tend to assume that we do it well. It is oftentimes a revelation, what freedoms can be gained, when parameters are placed on a conversation. All of a sudden, the communication clears and people are no longer reading into what has been said things that are not meant.

 

For me, the most important sub-issue to this communication thing is "teasing." Mr. Alura and I agreed when we met that we would not tease each other. Ever. Twenty four years later, we still don't tease. What is most wonderful about this is that we never have to question what the other has said. We don't wonder if it was meant as a joke, or to tease, or to hurt, or anything else. We know it was genuine.

 

Well, EBF, obviously, this is something that I feel strongly about, I've gone on at some length here. I hope that I have answered your question, or at least started to answer your question. Borders probably has about four feet of bookshelf space devoted to the subject.

 

Mr. & Mrs. Alura

[Elusive BiFem 70]

Thank you very much, Alura's. I think everyone can use this information to better all of their relationships - friendships, spouses, lovers...and particularly thank-you to Mrs. Alura.

 

For others, and particularly TH, it would be easy to read some of the Alura's comments as nothing more than some type of hyperbole. But let me say...I know them personally, and tho' I don't know them real well due to several hundred miles between our cities, I can assure you that you can "see" their communication (and the results of their communication) if you are fortunate enough to spend any amount of time with them. That's the reason I asked them to respond. Good advice for all.

[Alura 2,775]

Thank you, EBF. We're humbled and honored.

 

Mr. & Mrs. Alura

[NNJBoomers 15]

I have one question for you, Tarnished Halo:

 

Do you want to live the rest of your life with the way things are now in your marriage?

 

It is obvious from your previous posts that swinging is very important to your husband. Granted, he has not been the most understanding person on this subject. Also, you have been resistant for your own good reasons. I am sure you each see your position as the correct one because it is the correct one for each of you. Bottom line: one wants to swing...the other one does not.

 

Result: stalemate.

 

You can both agree to disagree on this subject, but it looks like that has not worked. The turmoil over this issue continues.

 

I am sorry, but I do not see a compromise in this situation. You either swing or you do not. No matter what happens in the future....one of you will will get your way in this. Now you need to look at how the future may play out in your marriage if you get your way, and then, if he gets his way. You know yourself and by now you know him. In your heart of hearts, I think you know. So, how do you get beyond all the hurts and resentments that have built up over the years? You can change ONLY the way YOU think. You can not change how he thinks. It sounds to me that he has been consistent in his desire to swing for many years, so I doubt that will ever change. So, then, what about you? What are your objections to swinging? If you morally object to having sex with someone other than your husband, then all the counseling in the world will not turn you into a swinger. You simply MUST be able to separate sex from love. Look at it as adult playtime. The play just happens to be sex and not checkers.

 

If you are insecure about your body image or being able to attract playmates or nervous or afraid of the unknown, then you can become a swinger if you really want to do it. It will not be easy for you at first, but if you and your husband talk about it and make a plan of action, you can make it happen. There are lots of threads on this board about limits. I know you have some in mind already.

 

You can talk about doing this for only so long. Eventually you must DO it. Definitely take it slow but make sure you move ahead with your plan. Once your husband sees that you are willing to move forward with your agreed upon goal, hopefully he will relax and enjoy the journey. In this lifestyle, you always move at the speed of the slower partner. He should have no objections to this, as long as you are moving.

 

Oh yes, one more question...Do you TRUST him? I sure hope so.

 

Good luck to both of you.

[Rett 15]

I don't agree with NNJBoomber's advice on this issue. The post by Mr. & Mrs Alura shows that love, understanding, open and truthful communication , and respect and devotion to one another can go a long way toward making any marriage work whether it involves swinging or not.

 

Saying that "you can only change the way you think" and "Eventually you must do it" just means that she has a right to feel diminished as he will have his way and her inner feelings and beliefs are not valid. It's a two way street here, the husband has also known he has been hurting her for twenty years and how her personality was when he married her and just continued to disrespect her feelings. If she just concedes to please only the husband maybe it will change her mind and work but , what if it causes further resentment with the husband finally getting his way enjoying it and unwilling to stop and she finds her assessments were correct and she was never meant to be in the lifestyle. She would then have more distressful problems that she is now going through. Perhaps he should take the Alura's advice and give her the love and feeling of complete devotion to her and their marriage first without diminshing her. The husband here does't seem to listen to her fears and distress as she says he won't listen to anyone and even the advice from this board is invallid to him - he has said his moral ideas are absolutely fine and the swingers boards are perhaps not.

 

How many times must it be said, if one partner decides that swinging is not for them the other partner would honor that decision. If they have a truly loving relationship , they should be able to be happy together without entering the lifestyle. If they both truly have a desire to get into swinging then fine.

 

It sounds as if the husband has never really tried to honestly and openly communicate with her on the swinging issue , he only and always wants his issues discussed using his standards. Why else would the wife be completely diminished. No, a counselor may not always help but , if he won't honestly listen she did the right move by getting help in resolving the problems she is confronting .

 

After twenty years of stress , it may indeed take a third party to control and slow down the thoughts and open discussion so that both parties here not only hear but, listen and heartfully consider what one another is trying to express to them and respect their feelings. It could , maybe, get them to calmly and considerately begin with a new start on their relationship where both parties have an equal and respected viewpoint . She has stated , as it stands now, she would have to change her name from "Tarnished" to "Rusted" - that in itself tells a lot as to how diminished she feels.

[JustAskJulie 2,595]

Tarnished Halo:

 

1. Do you really want to swing? Are you attracted to the idea of being involved with others sexually AND having your husband involved with others sexually?

 

2. You mentioned having the benefits of swinging without actually swinging? What benefits are you referring to?

[De and Ci 19]

Tarnished Halo,

 

Yes I will also ask: Moral issues aside, Does any aspect of swinging turn you on? MMF, same room sex, FFM, etc.

 

If it all disgusts you - you have to communicate that to your husband and he will have to accept it. Just like if my wife wanted me to let a guy fuck me in the ass! There is no way I would do it-and she would have to accept it.

[yawanna 17]

Nice turning of the tables there! *high fives*

 

what if it were HER fantasy that he get analled by a guy...and it was SO important to her.. and he didn't want to but had maybe mentioned once that he might enjoy it - in the passion of a moment - and she had a previous partner that would do that for HER. Hmmmm.... Would it be she 'fucking up their relationship' by asking for something he wasn't able to do?

[NNJBoomers 15]

I am perfectly aware of what it takes to make a marriage work, since Mr Boomer and I have been married over 31 years.

 

Tarnished Halo has receive wonderful, caring advice from many on the board here. If her husband were inclined to listen, then that would be great. However, it is obvious that he does not care for our advice. He wants what he wants. So, that leaves Tarnished Halo to decide how to deal with him.

 

She has the indisputable right to put her foot down about swinging and tell him...never in my natural lifetime! Do not mention that subject to me again.

 

However, she knows that there will be consequences to this decision. She is still "iffy" on putting her foot down, because she fears that the results might be worse than what could happen if she agrees to swinging.

 

She has a real dilemma, because she is dealing with the unknown no matter which decision she makes.

 

Mrs Boomer

[Alura 2,775]

You make good points, Mrs. Boomer. I guess it boils down to her having to accept swinging or give up on the marriage. I still have hopes that's not true. That's why I'd like to see her husband join the discussion. So far, no luck, so you may be right-on-the-button on your assessment of the situation.

 

Still, I'm amazed by the change in Mrs. Tarnished's attitude toward swinging since she joined us here. She is definitely more open, though still unsure, to the idea.

 

I'm wondering what might happen if she took to the lifestyle like a fish to water once she tried it. How do you suppose her husband might accept that?

[Tarnished Halo 16]

Julie, to answer your's and other's question, I don't believe that I would have been the one to bring the question up. I have never cheated on my husband. And given who I am I doubt that I ever would have. That simply isn't in my makeup. However, surprisingly, swinging is something that I think is "possible", with a lot more things that are resolved. I have tried to "imagine" looking at him while he is with someone else, but it hasn't been from a vantage point of US doing that, but simply him having the access to someone else. I understand (and am hearing that a lot more now that I am listening a bit more carefully), that he is bored with me. That doesn't make him bad, and it doesn't make me a moron either. I am beginning to understand (and disillusioned by it I suppose, if I am to tell the truth), that men get bored with their wives, and the prospect of having sex with someone else can be quite exciting for them.

 

To have him "involved" with someone? ABSOLUTELY FREAKING NOT. It's one thing for him to want to fuck someone. It's a way different thing for him to be involved in the context that we are leaning toward polymory. THAT I WILL NOT BE INVOLVED IN AT ALL NO WAY NO HOW.

 

I had stated that it might be possible, if we could clear some things up between us. I still have and simply don't know how to separate sex from love, on an EMOTIONAL basis. Please note this. I know and realize that on the common level, or call it the intellectual level, that when he is with someone else, that he is NOT making love to her. I do know that. I just don't know how to get my head around it. For awhile, when I was going through a depression about this, I had decided (ever notice how we make decisions when we are really down?) that love was a four letter word and it sure didn't begin with "L". I am not sure I know how to love him and to let him be with someone else, to fuck her brains out while he's cooing at me all the time I love you sweetie! How does she feel when he's doing that (I mean if he was doing that?) These are things that I just don't know, don't understand and no one seems to be able to answer my questions. It's almost like he has said to me "I love you so much, I am going to fuck someone else, just to prove it to you."

 

I know that's a little extreme, but I am feeling a little down today. Last night when I went to bed, I thought about Julie's question to me. Did I want him to be involved sexually with someone else, and did I want to be involved sexually with another. I found it a tad depressing that we have so much energy into trying to find someone else to be with sexually to make the one that we are with either more exciting, or something.

 

Oh well. For those reading this, my husband has joined the board. NOT as a he said, or she said situation. I think he REALLY needs to be in touch with people who are living the life that he wants, and they can help him with their insights. Swinging doesn't come with a manual, (trust me on this, I would have found it online. There may be some books out there, but I live in a small town, and no credit card for online shopping. Most of the "instructions" that you do read are somewhat generic and don't really give you an idea of what swinging might mean to YOU personally! I have encouraged him to read the getting started articles, and to overlook the really hard core stuff (no offense to those this applies too, but some of you are nasty about it, especially to a beginner. ugh.)

 

I am looking forward to him hearing opinions other than his or my own, and hope this opens dialogue between us.

Thanks!

Tarnished.

[SexhoundDog 18]

Tarnished:

To quote Mr. Alura a few posts back:

 

Quote

"I'm wondering what might happen if she took to the lifestyle like a fish to water once she tried it. How do you suppose her husband might accept that?"

 

I noticed that you posted that you'd never cheated on your husband. In the context of true swinging, if that's what he really desires instead of just an open ticket to fuck someone else, you taking to this like a fish to water wouldn't be cheating at all.

 

Have you and your husband had this side of the talk as well? From all your posts I've read, I haven't heard you say once that your husband has mentioned getting excited about the prospect of seeing another man bringing you to ecstasy. I think this is what concerns the readers around here. It just seems real one sided. As Julie asked awhile back too "Do you want to enjoy another man besides your husband?"

[Tarnished Halo 16]

Yes, he has mentioned that quite a bit. At first many many years ago, I thought that he was trying to "give me away", for lack of a better explanation. That he didn't care who fucked me, as long as he could watch.

 

As far as me WANTING to get with someone else, I don't know. I do know there have only been a few men that I have even wondered about. I don't know if it's that I am picky, (I mean, at some point, you notice things about even the most attractive man that might not be just perfect.), not to mean that I am expecting perfection. NOT to be mean, but my husband is as far from perfect if that's what I was looking for, as I could get. After all, look at the mess we are in. If either of us were perfect, then wouldn't life be just rosy? I could prolly' be attracted to someone, but what I meant when I said that I hadn't cheated was to see someone that I JUST HAD TO HAVE sexually that is, and then gone after it. Personally, I think that if someone were to try to seduce me using a very personal approach rather than hey baby, I've got a cock for you, that I would be more inclined to stray, as it were. No I haven't cheated in either body or soul, and have no desire to. I think that if things were different I would be more inclined to at least check it out. One of the things that I am concerned about is that while's he's doing her, he is going to forget that I am there (until I pull his hair that is I guess that I figure that I should be the most important one here (of the females, I mean), not her. Her husband or boyfriend or whatever can and should be taking care of her, making sure that she is alright.

 

I am hoping that he will see others opinions, and realize that perhaps he doesn't have it figured out, that there are workable ways to do something (like swing) without tearing your relationship apart, and to realize that some of my concerns are considered somewhat common, and or natural.

 

Because we fought so much about this, and said really cruel and hateful things to one another, we both tend to remember the things that we said to hurt one another. For instance, in one argument, he said that the reason he wanted to swing so that he could fuck someone else, not me. Well...I KNOW he wants to swing so he can fuck someone else. Good grief! No kidding. Isn't that what swinging is all about? These arguments were NOT conducive to communication, and I am hoping that his posts and others will facilitate this.

 

I guess that I am looking for the more romantic (shsshh...what a loon, romantic between my husband and ME not us and them) way to swing and not become mired down in the confusion of trying to keep our relationship straight while we are figuring out who's going to be fucking who, or is that whom?

 

Tarnished.

[Alura 2,775]

Can't seem to get a question answered around here.

 

Tell me this, Tarnished: Suppose you and your husband tried swinging and you really dug it. "Hey! Wait a minute! These guys really know how to treat a lady! What have I been missing???" That sort of thing...

 

How would you feel about swinging then?

 

And further suppose your husband was totally disappointed in your first encounters and wanted to quit?

 

In other words, the tables were turned... How would you feel?

 

Mr. Alura

[Alura 2,775]

Don't forget: Swinging isn't cheating; sneaking around and fucking somebody behind your spouses back, without their knowing about it, is cheating.

 

As my old Pappy used to say, "He who is being cheated, who knows he's being cheated, ain't being cheated."

[De and Ci 19]

Would it be she 'fucking up their relationship' by asking for something he wasn't able to do?

 

If she refused to accept the decision-that would be fuckin' up the relationship. It also would not be a swinging issue-would be a "respect" issue.

[Tarnished Halo 16]

Ok Alura, to answer your question specifically, I KNOW that other men are attracted to me, and I am fairly sure that they would treat me well, but I have no emotional connection to them, and would consider it just a matter of their hormones squeaking. It doesn't matter, and they don't matter. Not in a mean or cruel way, it just doesn't phase me when other men appear to be attracted to me. It's no sort of compliment, just a condition they happen to be temporarily in.

 

I think that my husband would be pleased to have me enjoy iother men, and I also think that he knows in his heart that I love him and there wouldn't be too much danger (you never know, it COULD happen, but I wouldn't allow it) of me becoming involved with someone else. He knows my heart. I am still operating (although not as much), under the impression that it is the young(er) thin(ner) woman who he sees that he would like to experience. He has already said that he feels that I would nix any opportunity to be with someone who is "better" (see younger, etc) than me. He's somewhat right, but still a little off. At this point, why strive to make me feel inferior? I know that on a practical level, a man who is with a woman like that is not going to want me, so I am not sure that I really have to be concerned with a no vote on some little honey that he'd like to be with.

 

As far as enjoying any encounter that I would have, I have to say that it would be difficult for me to relax any truly enjoy it. I would be more concerned with what he and she were doing, and couldn't disconnect enough to let them "play". That's a stupid term for it by the way. I guess that I am concerned that there isn't any way for us to be with someone else, because we are going to by very definition be with "Someone Else", and thereofre can't keep that connection. Or something silly like that.

 

If anyone can (yes...here is a dare!) explain to me how you keep connected with your spouse while you are busy with someone else? How do you keep it in perspective? Are (the one you are with, the playmate so to speak) they interested in what THEIR spouse is doing, or concentrating on what's going on with themselves and you? What about when "they" are finished? I am NOT going to go fix them breakfast!

 

This whole thing just seems so very complicated, how in the hell did you all figure it out?

 

Alura, did that answer your question?

[De and Ci 19]

It's one thing for him to want to fuck someone. It's a way different thing for him to be involved in the context that we are leaning toward polymory

 

Tarnished-we already know this about you, Most of us would be in agreement. You don't have to keep bringing it up-We know!!

 

If you were secure in the knowledge that your husband wanted to swing only for excitement-purely recreationally-that he had no feelings for the other person at all-would that make you more comfortable?

As for us-We are totally secure in knowing that we do not have feelings for other partners other than friendship. It's just something we do to spice up our sex lives. We always have great sex the next day. It's not for her or me-its for us. As a matter of fact, I like her even more since we started swinging-I feel so lucky to have such an open minded wife. My wife told me one day "I know your not going to cheat-you have absolutely no reason to". So I guess swinging has made us even more secure.

[Vjklander 138]

Quote

Originally posted by Tarnished Halo

If anyone can (yes...here is a dare!) explain to me how you keep connected with your spouse while you are busy with someone else? How do you keep it in perspective? Are (the one you are with, the playmate so to speak) they interested in what THEIR spouse is doing, or concentrating on what's going on with themselves and you? What about when "they" are finished? I am NOT going to go fix them breakfast!

 

This whole thing just seems so very complicated, how in the hell did you all figure it out?

 

Empathy has a lot to do with it. I am happy when she is getting pleasured. Hearing her moans and other sounds of pleasure make me harder than Viagra ever could. That goes for the women I'm with as well. A responsive passionate woman does much more for me than a woman who just lies there like a mannequin. I also have great pride in her, knowing that she is turning another man (or woman) on so much. And there is a sense of satisfaction, if not outright smugness, knowing that no matter how good he is, she will be going home with me. Most generally, there is some level of interaction between all of us. It is not unusual for one guy to be fucking one woman while the other two of us are playing with her nipples or something. It is also not unusual for us to be in threesomes. We also have served and been served breakfast.

 

Our relationship is so much more than sex. Defining it by sex seems to make it rather trivial.

 

It really isn't very complicated at all. You find someone you are attracted to and fuck.

[midnight hour 16]

Tarnished it seems like you have become the product of overkill..to the point where he is almost shaming you into doing something you are not ready for...This coming from Mr. Midnight would have got a shoe up side the head.

 

I am still myself testing the waters..other then doing the MFM thing which I find has worked best for us thru the years...but regardless he is thrilled to no end with the MFM.

 

I cringed when I started reading your post, because in some ways I have been thru the same thing in my head...though our relationship and sexual well being is still in the top 10 with each other..I also like you seem not to be sexually excited very much by other men... and in my case have only been with 4 men in my lifetime.

 

I also think I would have a huge problem with him being with another woman and at the same time looking into my eyes..but seprate room would not be a option for me either.

 

Is there no middle ground with him on this issue..? That it seems in a way you are interested just not ready to jump the full monty yet..if there is no middle ground, or you can not settle on some kind of line..I don't know what to tell you.

 

I know that Mr. has no problems jealousy or otherwise with the other males we have played with...but if he had it would have stopped asap.

There does need to be a meeting of the minds, in which perhaps he can listen to those who are giving advice with a grain of salt...make sense?

 

Good luck~

[Alura 2,775]

Quote

Originally posted by Tarnished Halo

Alura, did that answer your question?

 

Not really, Tarnished Halo. The question is, "If you and your husband tried swinging and you liked it and wanted to continue while he had a bad time and wanted to quit, how would you feel?"

 

Essentially, your answer covered all the reasons you would not like it and why this scenario would not be possible. The question, though hypothetical, is not at all unusual in the world of swinging.

 

More than a few times, men have pressured their wives for years to try swinging. When she finally gives in, he finds she is the life of the party, has men lined up trying to get a chance with her and her moans and groans tell him unequivocally that she's having the time of her life! But (what's this???!!!) the men are better looking and more capable lovers than he'd imagined, the ladies seem to be avoiding him, and (Ohmygawd!) he can't get it up!

 

Now, I'm not saying this will happen to your husband but, from what I've learned on this board, the chances seem to be about fifty-fifty, on the first experience, at least.

 

So, if that happened to y'all, how would you feel? What would you say to your husband on the ride home?

[SexhoundDog 18]

Quote

 

Mr. Alura says:

 

"When she finally gives in, he finds she is the life of the party, has men lined up trying to get a chance with her and her moans and groans tell him unequivocally that she's having the time of her life!"

 

 

I would hope this is EXACTLY what happens to Tarnished should she decide she'll give it a whirl! Then I doubt she'd have much to say on the way home because she'd be in dreamland.

 

And although I haven't seen any post from Evil Bastard other than his first one, I would hope that the possible scenario you painted for him would not occur. I don't think that would help their relationship any, and although from Tarnished's posts we might be inclined to think "Serves him right", I would hope it doesn't go that way should a swing night ever occur.

 

I'm glad to hear that you know there are other men who want you, Tarnished. I was a bit afraid of the self image you portrayed of yourself. You go, Girl!!

[flassh 15]

This forum discussion has raised many questions. Regrettably, most go unanswered.

 

Anyways, I agree with the opinions expressed by Vjklander concerning "empathy" for others. Some of the responses make me doubt that empathy exists.

 

Who among us has not doubted ourselves and felt like we will be the one left in the cold? This seems like a condition of being a lovable human. We choose to love and be loved at the risk that love will not "be there" in some way for ourselves.

 

Sex is a great emotional release that affirms our humanness and sense of completeness for my life and with my spouse. And as far as shared sexual experiences with others....this is about building up one's relationship with a spouse in a very special way. Which is not a mainstream definition of love but more of a pinnacle of how two humans can bond when actual love for the person exists. Is this the empathy referred to..I believe so.

 

So for Tarnished: How can you say that you love him if you cannot take the risk to trust him and talk about what his heart is saying concerning "swapping" and how it might affect your lives? And likewise, as JustAskJulie requested in her question #2 previously: "What benefits do you see in swinging?"

[Evil_Bastard 19]

I lost the original message that I was typing, sorry I messed it up.

 

Flassh how dare you question that I love him? Who are you to determine if I do or do not love my husband, using YOUR set of criteria??????

I am already real clear about how his ideas of swapping has affected our lives, just as I was real clear about some of the previous decisions that were made, and it's taken me 20 frigging years to get to this point. I am NOT asking kudos from anyone, but I have stuck in there, and you question ME?

 

And Alura, to answer your question, if I loved it and he didn't, he is important enough to me to not ask him to engage in something that he doesn't like. He doesn't like to dance. I do. We don't dance (except at weddings with the bride & groom and an OCCASIONAL one. I don't bitch and complain about it, I just accept it, although truth be told, I do tap my toe now and then. As far as the ride home, I'd be letting him know how very important that he is to me, and that I am on his side (and still am FLASSH), even though we may think differently

HHMMPPH.

[Evil_Bastard 19]

I apologize everyone, I didn't realize that I was logged in (actually, he was on earlier), under my husband's name. I will log off and sign in properly.

Tarnished.

[Tarnished Halo 16]

Julie,

The benefits I see of swinging doesn't necessarily mean that we are having sex with others, and that is someplace that I could see as more of a possibility than full swap at this point. As I see it:

 

1. Communication. Not just talking to one another, but saying things in such a way that we are sharing who we are what we think and feel with someone who is going to not necessarily "like" what we are saying, but is willing to hear it, especially since there are few people out there who are going to make this possible.

 

2. Being close enough that there aren't any doubts as to our own importance in another's life. I heard somewhere that to be truly loved is the most valuable thing that human beings can experience. I want the closeness with my husband, but don't want to (right now that is), have to experience it over another woman's body. Can't we have that without the others, and if we can't, why NOT? Do you have to be a swinger to be close to your spouse?

 

3. Being able to be in a sexually charged atmosphere without being stupid about it. Admittedly, if I dressed like I could when going to a swingers club (and there are lots of people there who don't swing), at my local bar, everyone would judge me a whore.

 

I think that a casual atmosphere would be refreshing even though there might be some overt sexual activity I sure wouldn't see at P.J's.

I am feeling a bit defensive right now, so I am going to stop trying to justify, and relax to try to get my head straight. Flassh really upset me, and I do NOT want to be abusive OR defensive.

[Alura 2,775]

You don't have to be a swinger to be close to your spouse, Tarnished, but you sure as hell have to be close to your spouse to be a swinger.

 

Relax, you've been at this twenty years. You have plenty of time left.

[Elusive BiFem 70]

Quote

Originally posted by flassh

So for Tarnished: How can you say that you love him if you cannot take the risk to trust him and talk about what his heart is saying concerning "swapping" and how it might affect your lives?

 

I don't agree with all that TH says, flassh, but I do believe if you go back and do a search on Tarnished Halo and read her many, many posts dating back to the beginning, you will see that she has taken many risks to talk with him, try to understand swinging, his desires (or need) to swing, etc. Quite frankly, I honestly believe she has done far more than most women that were opposed to it would even consider. Personally, if I was as opposed to swinging as she was when she first joined and started posting, my answer would have been a simple "no." End of the story for me and especially if someone kept hounding me about it. I say kudos for TH for hanging in there and trying to learn and understand something she obviously did not have any interest in in the beginning.

[windsor4fun2 130]

I'll have to do a double Dito on EBF's post. It is obvious that flassh has not read any of TH's past posts. She has definitely tried to understand her husbands feelings and point of view.

[Rett 15]

Hi Tarnished,

 

I'm glad your loved one finally logged on and is starting to get acquainted with the various issues (wish he has used another name though). Sounds also as if you are both now starting to get around to more meaningful discussions as to the issues that face you both. I wish you both a better start now. I know in your minds and hearts you're trying to resolve all the benefits or problems swinging might present, and I'm sure it's not an easy decision as to which path you both wish or are willing to take..

 

In one of your more recent posts you stated ... online...there may be some books out there ... and there is no credit card for shopping...and what swinging might mean to you personally. I just did a search a few minutes ago to see just what if anything is available. Well, there certainly is no void in sex and swinging site - but they don't give you the amount of information you have already received on this board, Not that that's bad. I tried to find something that related more to what your concerns are. Two sites I located are just about Love and Relationships and there is definitely a lot of information there, a couple other sites take a look at swinging from outside reporters viewpoints, and the others take viewpoints from people with a situation somewhat like yours. Perhaps you both will find more to consider either positive or negative from your viewpoint and your decisions are as important as anyone's. Ultimately, it's up to just the two of you to decide.

[curcpl_2004 16]

Tarnished Halo said:

For my part, I interpreted his desire to swing as a negative reflection on his happiness with me, and for quite a while could only compare myself to the women that he wanted to be with.

 

Tarnished,

From a female that has just started swinging with hubby. Here is my 2 cents worth on a part of what you wrote.

 

The part about the negative reflection, I thought that at first also. But as we talked and discussed us starting to swing I realized, and he didn't say in as many words, that it was not me he was unhappy with but a desire to make me feel as wonderful as possible! It was also a way for us to "act out" our, ok mostly my, fantasies. These haven't always included other people but a lot of the time they do.

 

As for the comparing to other people... well that was something hubby was worried about that I would compare him with some one else. This is my 3rd (count them 3 ) marriage. I have have other relationships before I met him, I have not compared him to anyone else that I have been with before him.

 

This next question assumes that you two were not high school sweethearts

 

Does your hubby compare you with other women he has been with before he met you?

 

My guess is that he does not do this.

 

The key to swinging for us is communication, I can't stress that enough. We discuss everything, from the kissing thing... my point after living in NV for 8 years and hearing all the men who went to the cat houses from the military base i was on telling everyone else that the girls there don't let you kiss them because that is the one thing they keep just for their hubby's or b/fs.

 

The other thing we don't do is separate rooms.

 

I guess what all this means is that you and hubby need to find out where both of your comfort zones are... these can only be set by the two of you...

And Talk, don't argue, don't get mad, maybe he is only thinking of your pleasure and happiness...

[mxdtxn774 17]

Alura said:

More than a few times, men have pressured their wives for years to try swinging. When she finally gives in, he finds she is the life of the party, has men lined up trying to get a chance with her and her moans and groans tell him unequivocally that she's having the time of her life! But (what's this???!!!) the men are better looking and more capable lovers than he'd imagined, the ladies seem to be avoiding him, and (Ohmygawd!) he can't get it up!

 

This is my first attempt to reply using another's quote, so here goes. Since I am new to the Swing Lifestyle this would no doubt be my greatest fear. I have already experienced something very similar to this so I wanted to write.

 

When I and my wife first started talking about swinging, it was my initial thought to do it as a couple and then take it from there. Somehow we agreed to open our marriage and see other people, which was a very bad idea, as it nearly cost us our marriage. Bear in mind that we have yet to swing as a couple, but when she was playing solo, she had the time of her life. As Mr. Alura said, she had men lined up ready for the chance, while yours truly couldn't get off the launchpad because of the social stigma( "Oh you're married! I won't talk to a cheater!"). At any rate now that we have looked back at our own issues we are ready to try again, this time as a couple. So, I cannot yet attempt to help out in the way that others on this board has helped me, since I am still so new to this, but I will say that as long as the communication is there, there is hope. I personally hope that it will be a win/win situation for the both of you, but it will take time and understanding.