Feelings of guilt due to religious upbringing

[tryit2? 15]

OK sports fans... another lengthy post. LOL I have been reading other posts for about 3 hours, and have several questions. One lengthy thread about guilt danced all around my question, but did not help.

 

We have been taught that premarital sex is bad, sex between singles is bad, between ANYONE but your marriage partner is bad. Heck, sex itself is bad. Sex with yourself???? OOOHHHH, really bad. So what am I doing on a swingers site? Trying to find out if if is for us.

 

Since youth, (a long time ago, LOL) we have been taught sex is a bad thing outside marriage, and DO NOT ENJOY it when you do it. So, how do we get over this indoctrination? Jealousy can be a part of this, but not in this question. Please, no sermons on jealousy here. I just want to know how others overcame this indoctrination. IN my case, (husband), I can overcome it better, but my wife has a REAL problem overcoming the "anticipated???"guilt. We have not started anything yet, we are waiting for "the right moment", so your advice is anticipated. I have several other posts on other topics, so please do not confuse them with this question. There are also several other "guilt trip" problems my wife has, and they will be addressed later in other posts. Thank you.

[good times 991]

I don't know if I can be of much help here as I've never experianced this problem. I guess it is that I've always been very skeptical about the things that I have been taught, I tend to be one of those people that looks at something, especially things that the majority of people believe blindly, and if they don't make sense to me then I form my own opinion. If my opinion goes against the grain, so to speak, it has never bothered me in the least. In regards to sex, I've always taken the view that something that feels so good and isn't hurting anybody couldn't be bad. So I just go with the flow and enjoy it.

[biblonde 22]

I can relate to this...When we first got into this i was real worried. I took my wedding vowes very seriously and it was hard over coming that one statement of keeping only unto my hubby. We did alot of talking and decided that we really werent going against it since we were both gonna be there and there was no cheating there. We dont really look at sex as a way of exspressing our love for each other but more as a sport which we both really enjoy. I have to say that since we have started playing our sex life as gotten more often and more intense and we both feel alot closer to each other...although we were very close to start with. As for "sex is bad" heard that one a million times!! But if ya think about it EVERYTHING is bad...lol So my advice is to talk talk talk and when you are done talk somemore. To us sex is just something we do that has nothing to do with our love for each other...We show each other in many many other ways how much we love each other although it does include sex, it is soooooo much more.

 

good luck..my 2 cents for the day!

[Alura 2,774]

I'd be interested to know what religion y'all practice, if any, if you were raised in a particular religion and if y'all feel that may be a part of your problem?

[Greg & Sheryl 368]

Originally posted by tryit2?

We have been taught that premarital sex is bad, sex between singles is bad, between ANYONE but your marriage partner is bad. Heck, sex itself is bad. Sex with yourself???? OOOHHHH, really bad.

 

Whoever taught you this was DEAD wrong, in our opinion! Realize that and get over it.

[LikeMinds321 1,527]

It would be so much easier if guilty feelings about sex could be removed with the spray of a magical herbal product.

 

Tryit2?, my gut says: Your wife shouldn't swing until she has come to a place of understanding within herself. She will know it when she finds this place. She will experience a wonderful calm and peace, where she will know that her choice to swing is not sinful and wrong, but healthy and right for both of you.

 

Swinging first, before she has come to terms with her guilt issues, is not going to erase guilt. It might even make her feel worse.

 

I left guilt behind when I added up all that was right in my life: a wonderful husband, an already healthy sex life with him, realizing that sex and love are TOTALLY different things, realizing it's OK to love and appreciate your body and the natural sexual urges we have, knowing that my husband and I are in this together, and lastly, being prepared to stand up for what I believe--swinging is a good thing for me and Mr. LM.

 

Good luck.

[tryit2? 15]

Thanks to all for the sage advice. We pretty much do everything said above, but wanted input from others. Sort of...yeah, we are in the right ballpark. One post above sort of says "deal with it" . Sounds nice, we are working on it, but 40 plus years of indoctrination does not go away overnight. Bear with us. One question was where are we, and what religion. We are almost dead center US, North of Kansas City, south of Omaha. Yep, right in Bible beating country. Religion....Baptist, ........ not only Baptist, but Southern Baptist. If you might guess, we are sorta lapsed a bit. (maybe a lot, given being here) LOL To likeminds, emails like yours will probably go a lot further for reassurance and peace of mind than anything I could say to her.

 

In theory, she is all for this, but in practice, Ahh that is the problem. If you every find that elusive "guilt be gone", we will be your first customer! To anyone else concerned, this is good therapy for both of us, discussing these ideas here. It opens new horizons and lets us know we are not alone in these thoughts or feelings. It is just we are getting started a lot later than most of you.

 

Some may note a lot of LOL notes from me. Yes, I do laugh a lot at myself. In general, we have a lot of humor. Some contrived, some good, a lot bad (WE both like puns.... forgive us), and some just a bit skewed, at least according to friends. BUT.....it has taken us through a lot most marriages would not survive!! 27 years worth. As a note, discussing swinging is a very minor problem between us, concerning other things we have already made it through. Thanks to all, please post more thoughts.

[Alura 2,774]

Thanks for the additional information, TK.

 

Unfortunately, religion is at the base of a lot of guilt feelings. To begin with, we'd suggest y'all visit one of the Christian swingers websites. They have a lot of answers to your problem. The name of the group escapes my memory at the moment, but I'm sure someone on this board will be able to direct you.

 

Jesus never spoke ill of sex. In fact, many scholars feel his relationship with Mary Magdelene included sex; some even think they had children.

 

Christianity only began equating sex with sin when Saul of Tarsus entered the picture. A couple of years ago there was a thread on this board in which a member, Quin, a history major, posted at length on his life and personality. Saul, later called Paul and eventually St. Paul, was the first of the Christian zealots. He was so obsessed with the second coming of the Christ, which he felt was imminent, that he urged his followers to think only of that and not waste time on mundane things like sex. He was also something of a misogynist, considering women, at best, unclean. He wrote in one of his epistles, "It is better that a man not touch a woman."

 

When Constantine moved the seat of the Roman Empire to Constantinople, established Christianity as the state religion, and ordered that the Bible be compiled, a lot of Saul's writings were included. That changed the focus of Christianity away from Jesus' teachings of love and peace to Saul's teachings of hellfire and brimstone.

 

There is no reason for a follower of Christ's teachings to feel guilty about sex or swinging. Don't ask yourself, "What would St. Paul do?"

[Elusive BiFem 70]

Guilt? Did someone say guilt? Ahhh...the friend and constant companion of many of us.

 

Yeah, tryit2, I think guilt is something that many of us currently share or have shared in the past. A few, like LikeMinds, has managed to put their guilt into perspective and/or rationalize the guilt, and get on with life. But like all things in swinging and in life, we each move at our own pace.

 

Guilt can be a good thing. It stops us from jumping into things we might later have regrets about - gives us time to stop and think - as your wife is doing. I'm single, so my "guilt trips" are a bit different than those a married woman might have, but something I think most women have in common is the "good girls don't" aspect. That is something that is difficult to overcome considering the number of years we are subjected to that thought and societies attitudes towards "girls that do." At some point, tho', many of us have come to the conclusion that we have changed...just like society has.

 

There is a website I've seen referenced several times and the one I believe Alura is referring to - Liberated Christians. I've never read the information, but others have highly recommended it. You might want to check that out. Hopefully someone will come along and post the link. Otherwise, try a google search.

 

In the meantime, I'd suggest you do what you are doing...lots of talk, lots of reading, lots of fantasy...and start slowly by reading ads together, reading this board together. Maybe a visit to a club with the understanding there will be no play...just good conversation and observation. That may give you the opportunity to meet others in the lifestyle and to come to the understanding they are no different than you...just like your friends and neighbors...a mixed bag of nuts! It's easy for some of us to say, "Don't feel guilty." But since we all internalize guilt differently, and manifest that guilt differently, we all have to arrive at our own conclusions about what it means to us and how we will handle it. Or even dispense with it altogether.

 

Go slow. Read and learn.

[HornyCouple 15]

http://www.libchrist.com/

[TNT 1,155]

Ted said that I should respond to this thread, although I am not sure why or what I can offer but I will try.

 

I don’t recall having much, if any, guilt about entering the “Swinging Lifestyle” in concerns of religion. Even though I did grow up in a somewhat religious family we were not forced to attend Sunday school/church if we did not want to go. My parents did not attend church and even though my grandparents were extremely religious they never really forced the issue with my parents about my sister and I attending. If we wanted to go we went with our grandparents, were allowed to discuss what we learned with our parents and were told by them to make our own minds up as to what we believed and didn’t believe. Even my grandparents were very good about telling us in discussions with them about religion that we really needed to make our own minds up. So religion has never played much of a part in any decision I had to make. Even as a teenager and attending church with Ted...his grandfather was a Southern Baptist preacher and he was made to go to church on Sunday, Sunday night and Wednesday night and if I wanted to spend time with him on those days, it was off to church...I found that it was mostly filled with hypocrites...those who professed to be “good Christian folks” would talk about and judge others because they were not just like them...sorry, can’t agree with that as I believe that if there is a God then he loves everyone, not just those who think and act the way the “Church” says they should. Anyway, enough about my background and thoughts on religion.

 

I do remember having guilt feelings where my marriage vows were concerned. We were taught honor growing up and that a promise made was one that you should always keep. So this was my biggest obstacle to over come. Ted, being the wise man that he is, when I looked at him and said that I didn’t want to cheat on him in any way, shape or form just looked at me and said how will you be cheating on me if I’m there with you? Okay, good point. Now wrapping my mind around that thought.

 

Actually this was probably easier for me than most. Who did I make this promise to? Duhhh...Ted, and he was telling me that I would not be breaking this promise so no breach of honor there. What it all basically boiled down to was this was mine and Ted’s marriage...not my parent’s, not the community’s, not the church’s, but mine and his so therefore we got to make the rules. We were the ones that this decision would ultimately affect, NOT anyone else. It’s true that if other’s found out about what we did it would change the way they looked at us but it really was none of their business and was not their life but ours. So we made the decision together, made our rules together and will face any and all consequences together, just like we have done with every other thing in our marriage.

 

As far as sex being bad...Sorry that you were taught that. Sex is NOT bad as long as it is consensual.

 

The one thing you should always remember is that this is about you and your wife...first, last and in between. As long as you two are in agreement what anyone else thinks really doesn’t matter.

 

Teresa

[SluttyWife 17]

Wanna know how to get over it? At some point we all come to the realization that life is to be lived, and *love* is ultimately the meaning of life.

If we really live and really love on a consistent basis we'll find that (poof!), the guilt has gone away. So ask yourself how you can really love yourself, your wife, your kids, your family, your friends....all the answers you seek lie there. Then start living. Can't find it in drug, drink, any addiction or religion.

 

Take this from a born and bred Catholic, who found Gawd through televangelism and left it all.

 

[Mich149 16]

Whoa. This was a big one for me to "get over". In fact I'm not sure I am entirely "over it" yet. Every now and then I have to clear my mind and remind myself that this is OK and I'm not going to burn in hell forever. Hubby and I had pretty much only been with each other since we were 15 and that was something special in my mind. I took the "forskaing all others till death do you part" line to heart as well. The thought of breaking that stretch and going against everything my parents and my church had drilled into me actually made my teeth hurt. What worked to set me at ease is to realize that I could look at sex as a purely physical act and reserve my heart and mind for hubby. Sex is sex, but love is love and not even a gaggle of nuns with rulers can convince me otherwise now.

[tryit2? 15]

WOW people!! Thank you for the super responses! Thanks for the info sites, I will probably go there tonight, after reading here a while. Your answers and helpfulness are somewhat overwhelming to me. I can tell we are not alone. That by itself was worth the start of this thread. She should enjoy the information, whenever she gets to read it. (has to work next few nights) Keep up the info, even if it does not help us, it's got to help others like us. Thanks.

[flirt38 15]

This post really caught my attention and being an ex Sunday school teacher and devout Christian, my gosh I was a Bible Thumper for most of my first marriage, it wasn't until life's tragedies got the better of me.

 

First I'd like to say that wow yeah, guilt does a lot of damage to oneself. Having been born and raised Catholic and then conforming to Born Again, I was never sexually "available" to ANY MAN whom was not my husband or not committed to, I was a virgin till my wedding night!

 

I believed in my vows (however Christian my 1st hubby was, he broke them) I trusted the lord, the bible, the vows we took, the 10 Comm. Believed that to even look at another with "LUST" in your mind was lust/cheating in your heart. I believed that to promise yourself to "THAT" one person was the way God planned.

 

Skip ahead 20 something years and here I am, married to my 2nd husband, who to my shock and dismay would actually encourage me to break my vow to him, "to love, honor and keep ONLY unto him", and yes through our many talks; he's re-affirmed that that his being there would make it ok, make it NOT CHEATING. BUT.......

 

To me, and in my mind and everything I held dear as truth of my heart, that him being there doesn't make it ok, that in some confused female Bible thumping Sunday school teaching demented way of thinking, doesn't make it ok none the less. That it actually made it worse, why??? Cause he was promoting and asking us to have a unfaithful marriage. That more so, he was willing to sacrifice and willfully break our vows to each other for the sinful "fun" of "Coveting" and allowing his wife to be "Coveted".

 

Does anyone understand what I'm saying, your not supposed to Covet your neighbors wife.......AND as the spouse, your not supposed to allow or permit anyone to COVET you's.

 

All of this was MY problems to over come. It was my baggage, and as you may have read in my Help Section Post, I didn't truly enjoy the mfm3sums we participated in, and it was mostly due to this being in my mind all the time. NOW I don't know what happened in the last experiment we participated in, I don't know. But something inside me, ME, allowed me to finally relax and enjoy the "sinful" pleasure another man was doing to me.

 

There was this peace, a understanding that the man I loved more then anything was there with me, pleasuring me, knowing that he loved me, knowing that I was STILL HIS WOMAN, that I belonged to him, before, during and after, and I would always, that I wasn't being stolen away, that I wasn't being BORROWED. That I "I" wasn't breaking my word/vow to the man I loved, nor he to me, knowing that the other man wasn't making love to me, and that I wasn't making love to him, knowing that each kiss my husband and I shared during, was OUR LOVE. Knowing that with each kiss we shared, we were again and again renewing our vow, our hearts, our love, for one another.

[pairbond 19]

Guilt is a toughie. We are "brainwashed" as small children by the "big people" in our lives, whether they be parents, grandparents, relatives, teachers, or whatever. We are basically ""scripted" with "rights & wrongs" by the time we are 5 years old, i.e., before we have the chance to develop logical reasoning skills, and before we would even think of questioning our "scriptors." Most of our behaviors and anxieties for years afterward, perhaps throughout our entire lives, will then be the result of how certain actions fit or don't fit with the "script" we were given as small children.

 

There is no way out of this mess until and unless you become consciously aware that you WERE scripted, and then analyze the script you were given, choosing to keep the parts you like and change the parts you don't like, i.e., until you CHOOSE A NEW SCRIPT. This isn't easy. For more on this, see if you can find a copy of "Scripts People Live" by Claude Steiner. I don't know if it's still in print, but you may find it at a used bookstore.

 

Until my wife and I separated when I was 39 years old, she was the only woman I had ever been with. In fact, my wife refused to give me oral sex, so I was 37 years old before I ever experienced that, achieved by taking advantage of her being drunk one night and practically shoving it in her face. When we were separated and I started dating another woman, one of the most difficult things for me was giving myself permission to have sex with someone who wasn't my wife! Luckily, I had been to counseling after my separation, so I had someone to discuss this with.

 

My current wife was also married previously, and both of us had several sex partners between marriages, so we certainly weren't "one and only" for each other, and it was obvious that was a trivial thing, since we loved EACH OTHER and that's what mattered. So perhaps it was much easier for us to accept swinging without guilt, since being "one and only" wasn't a factor.

 

The truth is, sex between two consenting adults is a WONDERFUL thing, in which each person willingly both gives and receives one of the great pleasures in life. I fail to see any "sin" in something that is consensual and mutually pleasurable. On the other hand, I see a LOT that is "sinful" about the way some people, and some CHURCHES, try to manipulate people with guilt! To me, that is tantamount to emotional abuse.

 

In the end, you have to evaluate your own "script" and choose your OWN values, and in the process reject externally imposed standards.

 

I'll never forget what a counselor said to me once when I was in college and struggling to find a major, or even what I wanted to do with my life. I went to the Campus Counseling Center, and the guy said to me, "Think of your mind as a huge warehouse, bigger than three football fields. Then think of the walls of that warehouse, with every square inch of those walls covered by pictures hanging on the walls. Our job is to determine which pictures YOU hung on those walls, and WHICH ONES WERE HUNG THERE FOR YOU!" Those words of wisdom made all the difference in the world to me, and have stayed with me even now 40 years later.

[BradAndJanet 70]

pairbond said:

...I'll never forget what a counselor said to me once when I was in college and struggling to find a major, or even what I wanted to do with my life. I went to the Campus Counseling Center, and the guy said to me, "Think of your mind as a huge warehouse, bigger than three football fields. Then think of the walls of that warehouse, with every square inch of those walls covered by pictures hanging on the walls. Our job is to determine which pictures YOU hung on those walls, and WHICH ONES WERE HUNG THERE FOR YOU!" Those words of wisdom made all the difference in the world to me, and have stayed with me even now 40 years later. ...

Man... I love that! I hope you don't mind if I steal it.

[Elusive BiFem 70]

An absolutely excellent post, pairbond. Thank you!